Mini 1040 - Everyone's A Critic! [Game Over]

[RedCoyote]

I agree with mykonian's opening post. That's good thinking. Jack also has a good point about the two mafia thing, but I wouldn't up and write off a three man scumteam.

Scum:
XScorpion
Antihero

I think I get why you put XScorp there, but why Antihero?

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

for being the last to make a post.

[RedCoyote]

That's a fair enough point, but your vote on me makes no logical sense. I've never played with XScorpion before and I know absolutely nothing about him. Also, if you honestly believe that a wagon on XScorpion was scummy, wouldn't it make sense to vote for one of the people who turned it into a random wagon?

It seems like you're beating a dead horse here, and it's sounding dangerously close to, "Why me?" What do you hope to get out of mykonian?

---

Why did he put xscorp on there, I can't tell.

I suspect it's because he didn't "figure out" whatever it is that made you and mykonian look good in his eyes. I suspect he was wanting XScorp to sing your praises as well.

---

Don't want to insult you scorpion. It probably has already become a selffulfilling profecy that you are an easy lynch

Well, y'all must have different meta with XScorp than I do. In both games I've played with him he's been tough as nails, although it took him a while to warm up in the first. I get the opposite impression from him at the moment. That is, he's a more difficult lynch than, say, Antihero or dana, which seem like they may roll over more easily.

---

Lol at post 71, 72, & 73, but no lol at post 91 (okay, maybe a little lol).

---

Scum may NOT pass the Vigilante Ability to their partners. This is not a change in the setup or mechanic, it has been in effect since the beginning, but I missed it in the Special Section. My apologies.

Hmmm...

I still think I agree with mykonian, that the person who starts with the vig power is still likely to be town, although I'm a little more open to the debate than I was previously. By this I mean I'll be predisposed to thinking whoever has the power is town, but I could be convinced otherwise if I'm not feeling it.

---

Because if they did they would pass it to a townie and kill that townie...well the rule is a bit confusing, but there is still no way scum started with it.

Seems like the power would be randomized if this were the case.

Unvote

;

vote: danakillsu

for being the last player having not made a post that's worth a damn.

[RedCoyote]

anyway, thank you for updating me on dana and antihero.

and you voted dana... for being an easy lynch?

Actually, having just seen imaginality's post, I hadn't even realized that he hadn't posted before that.

But that's not answering your question.

No, actually I don't have meta on either dana or Antihero, so I'm only making gross generalizations about them. No, I'm not voting dana for the easy lynch, because what I said was true (again, if you don't factor in imaginality, which was a mistake on my part). Everyone else in this game has said something of meaning and taken a stand for or against something. Until dana gives us something we can sink our teeth into, then I'm happy with my vote right where it is.

---

Here is another point. If we live through 3 night at least two of the people who were vigs must be townies.

What if the vig shots are wrong though?

---

Just because I didn't have time to post when everyone else did doesn't make me scum.

I do not care for this reaction at all. This is way too defensive for what is, in effect, pressure to give us something. You think I don't realize the game has only just begun? Do you think I was going to actively start rallying a wagon on you? No, of course not. I voted you for a very clear, very specific purpose.

Funnily enough, I liked the way you started you post. If you had used that post to pry more into mykonian's motivations instead of jumping on me, then I would be looking for a new home for my vote right now.

---

"Stef voted scorp without any reason" - false, I stated my reason

People, or maybe I should say I, have short memories when it comes to this stuff. We try to stay on the game as best we can, but you really shouldn't be afraid to point to evidence whenever you claim to be falsely accused of something. In this case, because it's a pretty important wagon, I went back and tried to scope this out myself, given that you couldn't be bothered to. I see your XScorp vote, I see your XScorp "FoS" a little bit above that, but I don't see any sort of explanation... at all. I don't even see something like, "I have my reasons" (which I don't like either but at least that's something you could point to) or "I'm testing for reactions".

I'm sorry, but I don't see how mykonian is in the wrong here. Your voting of him only makes you look worse, I think.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP:

Sometimes it's best to just set aside your suspect for a few days and let the game develop, it seems that way to me anyway.

This quote is hilarious after the White Flag Mafia fiasco.

I was in no such game.

XD

[RedCoyote]

Why exactly would you try and figure out who is

EASIER

to lynch? And then you vote for ... dana?

That's very much out of context. mykonian claimed that XScorp was an easy lynch. I disputed that and contrasted it with Antihero or dana, both of whom I thought would be more fitting of mykonian's description.

This had nothing to do with my vote whatsoever. Are you proposing I should ignore dana because I think he's an easier person to lynch than the rest of the player list? If not, I don't see where you're coming from.

RC: So yes, you voted for dana because it was convenient. Basically you were full of it and acted like you knew something you don't just for the sake of posting.

No, I had a specific purpose for my vote. It's written as clear as it can possibly be. He had not made a decent post up to that point. There's no way to really dispute that.

Additionally, I don't know how you can make the claim that I was posting for the sake of posting. I addressed multiple issues in that post. Five different players, my vote change, and some commentary on the game itself all occurred during that post. That's, like, the opposite of posting for it's own sake.

[RedCoyote]

So which is it? You disputed and contrasted mykonian by thinking that antihero and dana would be more fitting? Or you were just making a gross generalization regarding these two with no meta behind it?

These positions are not mutually exclusive. I have no meta of either of those players, which is

why

I said I was generalizing them as players that would be easier to lynch than XScorp. What's the problem?

Making a gross generalization about two players based on nothing to make a point against another player to defend said player while this being half your post.

Okay, wait, I think I may have found our disconnect. Antihero and dana weren't the main idea behind that segment, that paragraph. You're coming at this like I was setting the stage for my dana vote, when in reality I was just addressing the XScorp case.

Hmm.. dana posted some now. Do you still think dana is scum? Why?

No, he hasn't. His posts are garbage. He posted that I'm scum because I voted him, and elaborated to say, essentially, I'm being too critical of others. That doesn't help anyone here. He's shirking away from the reason I put him in the spotlight to begin with: I want him to make a move in this game. I don't want him to just react. React to my vote, react to XScorp's posts, react to Jack/HC's questions... etc. Townies, in my opinion, should be inherently curious and suspicious about everyone. When someone doesn't fit that paradigm, I'm going to find out why.

---

Really like mykonian's post 157. It's hard for me to buy that it's entirely a superficial argument, like Stef contends, because the whole "pressure FoS" thing being weak makes sense to me. I don't use FoSs personally, but I don't hate on those that do. Still, it's hard for me to buy using an FoS as pressure, especially so early in the game. I mean, you have a vote for a reason.

I also agree with Stef's post 164. Jelly has been under the radar a little bit, as has imaginality. At least David has came in here and gave us a reason for his lack of a presence.

---

Soooo, what did we learn. If scum has the vig right now, Stef could have been arguing from the point where he knows he is right.
If scum doesn't have the vig right now, Myko could have been arguing from the point where he thought he knew he was right.

Who else had big opinions in the "vig=town" debate?

This doesn't change anything in my mind. No matter what the Vig shakeup was, it's more probable that it landed in a townie's hands. That's, like, the baseline. Once the Mod said that scum couldn't pass the power to other scum, that already made it clear that we couldn't confirm the first Vigilante as town. It's still more likely though, regardless. Afterwards, however, is definitely fair game. There's all sorts of WIFOM in guessing who X would send the power to, and whether or not they are more likely to be scum or not. That's too many assumptions at that point.

---

Lay off Jack, he is definitely town.

I was cool giving you down time due to your migraines, as I know that's a serious thing, but not if you're going to throw crap like this around. What the heck are we supposed to take from this, David? Why not, instead of telling us to confirm Jack, you reckon why it is Stef is bringing his name up? Is it valid? Invalid? I do not like this post at all.

---

dana's latest musings in post 191 are basically all throwaway. He revotes me for some reason, calls Stef's case "not too important to current events", calls Jack town. I don't know why he's so afraid to tell us what he really thinks about this game, because I'm certainly not the center of the universe. There are 10 other people in this game besides me and dana, and saying "Jack is obvtown" and other cases are "not too important" won't cut it for me. Does it cut it for anyone else?

[RedCoyote]

Seriously: "does it cut it for anyone else"? Why are you looking for confirmation. Further, you observe Dana's play isn't terrific, but you never reason through why it is scummy.

There are times when I think it's beneficial to draw attention to a vote I'm making or a wagon I'm on, and there are times when I'm less sure of myself and I'm more inclined to change my vote than I am to push it. At the moment, I think I'm in the former category. With seemingly every dana post, I feel more comfortable with this vote, more comfortable than it it were anywhere else at the moment. You say I'm looking for confirmation; I say I'm looking for a wagon to form.

You and I know dana is still quite a new player, so what do your observations say?

Don't give me this "poor dana" routine. He's a big boy. He can take a little heat. This isn't some technical, political stance I'm holding over his head. This is a fairly basic request I'm making, and instead of heeding it or even questioning it, he votes me.

Now, the voting is fine, you know, and that's his perogative. What gives me pause is when he's going to ignore the rest of the game, which he clearly has.

Then, we have your reaction to David, where you are asking towntells. If you have a serious problem with Jack, this would be a good approach, but seen as you haven't made any points against him, what makes you doubt David?

David said he wasn't going to be absent for a while due to his condition, but then he comes back about 8 hours later telling people to lay off Jack. So we've got David feeling the need to come defend Jack (why does Jack need defending?) against Stef, out of the blue, but more than that even, it seems sketchy that he made this short post so soon after he asked us to give him time for his condition. I don't think he's lying about his condition, but I don't see why it was necessary to even make that post if he's going to come back a few hours later to Jack's defense.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: David said he

was

going to be absent for a while due to his condition

[RedCoyote]

Then convince me, is that so much to ask? You aren't even trying here.

All I could do is point you back to my post 203. I started to organize something more specific, but the meat of it would still be the third and last paragraph in post 203. Stef wouldn't be a bad lynch either, so it's hard for me to tell you to abandon that vote. The reason I think dana is a better vote than Stef is simply because I think Stef seems more interested in scumhunting (and therefore more likely to be town). I'd refer back to post 147. Obviously I disagree with a lot of what he says (namely his scum read on me, but also the "pressure FoS" bit you pointed out), but, more importantly, he's playing offense and defense here. He's coming at different people. He's not afraid of spreading himself out. dana, on the other hand, couldn't be playing it more safe (or "relaxed" as he puts it; I'll get to that later in this post). Completely shut off to the rest of the game. Check out the exchange he had with HC. They go on and on about how he said you had good logic but seemed scummy. HC, over multiple posts, tries to get dana to open up, and, boy, dana does everything in his power to effectively shutdown HC's interrogations. They look to have eventually settled on a poor choice of words, but that may just be because HC has been away from the game for a bit.

To be even more blunt, there are three people I would feel okay having my vote on at the moment: dana, imaginality, and Stef, but very much in that order (and David is campaigning to bump Stef off the top three).

---

Yes, I do have an explanation for this. I am trying to change my playstyle some. I'm considered somewhat of a VI, and I think it's mostly just because I post too much, giving too many of my controversial opinions. So I'm trying to take a more relaxed approach to this game.

By all means, give us the controversial opinions. Throw safety out the window. dana, please understand that I'm not voting you because I want you to be scum, but that I think you are. If you're town, then I think I may be able to decipher that, but it's more difficult when you're "trying to take the relaxed approach". Maybe it doesn't suit you. Maybe it's just me. If I had to guess though, this is not you as a townie.

I "revoted" you because the mod did not have my vote in the votecount, and I didn't want to go see if I had already voted you, because I might as well just do it again.

I didn't notice this. If this was the case then I concede the point.

I said Stef's case was not too important to current events, because he was not backing it with his vote. What he thinks about someone who has no votes on him, and who he's not voting for, is not very important.

HC? But what difference does HC's vote make if he's asking about you? I don't understand what you're saying here, this sounds like you're just talking around the issue.

And I'm allowed to have townreads. I'm not the only one who's called Jack town.

It would be nice to know what brought it on, you know, so it doesn't just stick out like a sore thumb. "RC, you are still scum. btw, jack is town" is basically what you said. Why? You've said nothing about Jack all game, have you? And what difference does it make if other people have called Jack town? What have they got to do with you? I'm not coming at you because you called Jack town; I'm coming at you because it's not good enough to say, "I agree with XScorp's post and Jack is town l8r". If you're just going to piggyback on everyone else's opinions, then why don't we just lynch you and keep them around?

---

For an aggressive player, playing scum isn't easy, you expose yourself way too easily, and it is hard to be honest as it. Although as long as you are in the offensive, you are save, but overaggressiveness might also put people on you early.

K, our hero isn't stupid, so he thinks "I've got to lurk,", as he heard that is a viable scum strategy: "but how I'm going to get away with it"?

I am actually very concerned about Jack's limited presence so far as well, but I'm not ready to condemn him for it. I think I'll be able to make more of him as the game progresses, so he can sit in the middle for me right now.

---

What does the accuracy of the Vig shots have anything to do with his statement? Statistically more Town will die to Vigs than scum based on the generally accepted 9-3 ratio.

He was saying something else though, or I misunderstood his point. Though given what the Mod has told us, I think this discussion is a dead end. Do you want me to still go back and answer this?

[RedCoyote]

Note

: This post is way too big. I'm sorry. Everyone gave me a confidence boost earlier and that gets my juices flowing.

tl;dr = Thanks LynchMePls, believe your claim atm. XScorp bad then good. David bad. MoI good. dana still the worst. Countering antihero.

---

Unless there are actually 3 scum, in which case he is simply misleading town.

Oh, I had been meaning to bring up that I'm not of fan of your posting like this, you know, this Jack-style of one liners. It works for Jack (although this game is not the best example) because he votes a lot and makes his opinions clear and controversial. Here you're just kind of drifting. I mean, this entire post is just, like, captain obvious.

---

For going after an "easy" target (me), and 10 pages in having his vote on someone (me) who hasn't even noticed it's been on him til now because of my absence from the game.

I almost feel like I should've never opened my big mouth about "easy" targets, meta, and what have you. I never meant for it to be used by others as a defense mechanism or counterattack. In all honesty, it doesn't matter if you are an "easy" lynch or a "hard" lynch. The scum selection is random all the same. While there is merit to the idea that scum will try for a lynch they think they can get away with, that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone voting or playing the game is thinking in this mindset.

Anyways, it probably goes without saying that I don't really care for this vote.

---

So....gut.

Sigh. If that's all your going to take from me, then so be it. I'm trying to speak with you reasonably and calmly. I think you know that I'm not voting you out of gut. I think you feel good about my townie credentials. Regardless, you're clinging stubbornly to your position. Is it out of pride or scum desperation?

I'll tell you right now I'll take your lynch to the bank if you keep it up. It's day 1, and no one here, I don't think, is going to stick their neck out for you. This probably sounds more condescending than I mean it to be, but, hell, it's the truth. It's how I really feel. I'm not going to sugarcoat it for you or anyone else here. You're either being stubborn or being desperate, and I don't have the time or patience to hold your hand. If you are a townie then you'll have to work up the courage to see my point of view. I'm not going to roll over for, "gut! gut! gut!".

David disappoints me as well, but seems quite town.
@ David and Stef
What more does it take to convince you that RC is scum?

Let me translate this post for you guys:

David could be town or scum.
RC is scum, don't you guys agree?

Again, not engaging David. Not engaging anyone. Not explaining his mindset. Not caring. Not town.

---

When I feel I have a good enough lock on the third scum I will post my reads, and choose a town seeming player (if there is one interested) to debate them with.

Let me know when you're ready.

A similar point I want to bring up, since it's on my mind, is I hope HC gets to get his hands dirty some. He's been asking some questions, but I want him to draw some conclusions as well. mykonian, Stef, and, to an extent, MoI seem like the only other people to have really stepped up in the offense department.

---

I'd like to do two things:

Claim: Miller

Hey LynchMePls, glad that I get to play with you. I know you'll stick around. I feel okay about this Miller claim immediately, but I am going to go back through jelly's posts and see if I can find anything. I look forward to hearing more from you, but I think this is a good start.

---

How often have you guys seen mafia claim miller? Just curious.

Hoopla did it to me and got away with it. I felt sketchy about it for a while but I never acted on it. Eventually I accepted it and the game turned out being a perfect scum game.

Regardless, I like this post a lot better than the post I responded to earlier.

---

This is a really crappy vote, considering imaginality only posted once and hasn't posted elsewhere on this site while ignoring this game.

I disagree. He needs to be pressured. imaginality knows better; if he's busy then he should replace out.

Plus it's better than voting me.

---

That’s right. You take Antihero off your scum list but don’t even bother to move it to Xscorpian or RedCoyote who you say are scum.

This is a good point. David kind of dug himself into a hole over that list. He has to do one of two things, I think, either explain how that list has changed significantly (although he has explained me a little, he hasn't really addressed XScorp I don't think... maybe he can prove me wrong) or he has to concede that his list was not well thought out. Either way he's going to come out not looking too hot.

---

Whatever. It will be town's loss to lynch me, so you're hurting yourselves as much as me.

If that's going to be your attitude, then maybe mafia isn't the game for you. I don't want to be cruel, but I can't stand this. Get a thicker skin and play the game. We all get voted for reasons we don't agree with. Tough. You deal with it and press on. And you try to call me out for AtE? Maybe you should practice what you preach. This isn't personal, dana. I'm trying to find scum. Pouting about it isn't doing either of us good.

Shoot him. He's a possible scumbuddy to RC from his strange statement that his posting has improved and his wishy-washiness over him. He's not scummy for things he's done, just by connection to RC, but you could definitely do worse for an NK.

I hate how this post starts off great, but then dana neuters it before he can even get going. I'll even stomach the "Stef and RC seem like scumbuddies" if he actually had the courage to take a stand about something in this game. Instead of saying, "HC, you know what, you bring up a good point. Stef (or, hell, insert whatever name you want), I don't like this, this, and this. Explain what you mean here. Why do you think this about this?", he chickens out. "Well, I don't know, Stef isn't scummy for anything he's doing... he's a perfect player. No one is scummy... I have no other reads... Poor me..."

[RedCoyote]

RC, I have been waiting very very long for that post. Now get off dana, who soaks up way too much of your energy, get some real scumhunting going and let go of your slightly careful play.

As I've said, Stef isn't a bad choice for a vote at the moment, but I don't think I'm playing too careful. I can think of at least four wagons I could get behind right now, and I'm not afraid to call any of them out. We're going to need at least one alternative lynch, and I think dana is as good as choice as any (or Stef if you want to flip the positions around, either way). The possibilities, as I see them at the moment, are David, imaginality, Stef, and dana. Of course, we've still got a bit of time to go yet, and anything could happen, but I'm thinking these players should be our main focus at the moment.

---

You go right through the logic of what I'm saying

What logic? That I'm acting purely on gut? I mean... did you see the wall I just built? Are you serious? Do you know what gut means? Gut means that someone just get a feeling about someone's alignment. I'm the opposite of gut here, dana. In fact, I'm probably overly analytical in my analysis of you.

And the "grow thicker skin" thing shows a lack of discernment as to my situation.

What situation? What are you talking about? One vote? For goodness sakes, dana.

[RedCoyote]

Sorry to hear that, imaginality. Be safe out there.

---

I do not find him scummy for anything other than his connection to RC, which is glaring. That is why I can say "goodposting" but still want him dead.

I cannot believe you are still harping on about this. This is so silly. The obvious, immediate question is, of course, what makes Stef so special? David, mykonian, and HC have all implied, in one way or another, similar good things about my posting. That they think it's more or less on target. What connection does Stef have to me that these players do not? Moreover, don't you find it convenient that Stef, the player with the biggest wagon, happens to be the one player that you decide to vote instead of the three others I've listed? There are no examples as to why Stef should stick out. Your line of reasoning is too vague and too opportunistic for my tastes.

---

Is anyone here OK with Stef's imaginality vote? If so, why?

He was voting him before the earthquake. I think it's an acceptable vote, and I explained why previously.

[RedCoyote]

And not only has he not answered me as to how your posting has improved, he uses his vote simply to "pressure" imaginality to post some content. This looks very much like he thought he could bus you, but when he realized that your wagon wasn't going anywhere, he decided to put his vote somewhere noncontroversial.

What's this? You've actually tried to explain yourself? Now I could be cruel and say that David arguably said a very similar thing, but I won't do that. I want to hear what Stef has to say about the game, because I think he's back.

[RedCoyote]

Jack, that seems like a really, really awkward time to claim. I mean, what's stopping you from getting into this game? I guess it's for the best that you claim today given the fact that Stef could possibly be lynched, and could've possibly be shot.

The Antihero selection seems really out of the blue, and like HC just said, this would be something you'd need to backup. I don't see it, honestly. I haven't really had a problem with his play. Your mykonian vote is significantly worse, but you seem to acknowledge that. There's just not much I can do with this.

Unvote

;

vote: DavidParker

I'm still having trouble with his explanation about that silly Town/Scum list he posted earlier. I thought his joke was cute, but I still don't really understand the motivations behind the Antihero positioning.

[RedCoyote]

RedCoyote, can you elaborate on your thoughts about Jack's claim?

Well, sir, I don't like it. I don't like the way he's come out, and I don't like his inattention to the game. I agree with mykonian in the sense that I doubt this is some tactic of Jack trying to save his buddy, but something fishy is going on here. Theoretically, there shouldn't be anything keeping Jack from getting into this game. There have only been the need for a couple of replacements, and LynchMePls has done a great job.

---

Well if you look at the post he linked to, expressing my opinion on current, important events is all I've done.

That's a lie. You've effectively had nothing to say about this game that isn't "I agree with X" or "RC is scum". I asked you calmly, reasonably, and respectfully (but firmly) to elaborate on more than this, but you're clearly scared to do so (either because you're scared of being wrong or you're deliberately being obstinate). HC bent over backwards to get you to give us more than you have, and you just stonewalled him.

Although, admittedly, you are making progress here. Earlier you were writing off my vote as "gut", but now you've seemed to finally acknowledge my real reason for voting you.

9: Quotes four of my posts.
a) ignores most of my post and does little besides basic contradiction of the part he doesn't ignore
b) blatant misrep and exaggeration (as I already pointed out)
c) calls my simple, unadulterated statement of truth "pouting" for some reason
d) blatant misrep and exaggeration
12: Obvious and unnecessary condescension

You really need to step back and get a little perspective on this game. You're refusing to look at this game objectively. This sort of victim mentality will get you nowhere. I've tried to be as fair as I can, but I'm not going to handle you with kid's gloves. Not everyone who suspects you is scum, and not everyone who ignores you (Jack, XScorp, Antihero) is town. You won't feel as patronized when you learn to start keeping your feelings in check and start thinking about the game rationally.

I feel like, not just I, but we, as a town, have to work extra hard to analyze you due to your stubbornness. It's taking a lot out of me to have to sit back and think about whether or not you're really just this proud.

[RedCoyote]

I don't know why dana had to quote that entire post if he was just responding to two points.

I agree with Stef, where is big David?

I think it's about time to get a lynch going. Jack needs to get out of this game or play it. Most of the players need to give us more (XScorp, Antihero, David, MoI, HC, imaginality's replacement...). There is plenty to talk about, and if you don't want to talk about what's currently going on, then get in here and make something new.

I'm also going to start helping the Mod advertise for a replacement because we've effectively heard zero from that player slot.

[RedCoyote]

imaginality asked for a replacement.

Are you talking about Jack? Well, yeah, it would be nice to have someone who actually spoke to us. I don't want the Mod to force replace Jack; I want Jack to excuse himself. Hence, he needs to play or get out.

[RedCoyote]

I'd be willing to spare dana, but I just do not see mykonian as scum.

I really don't see Antihero either. I mean, unless your gut's pinging them or something, they both seem townie to me.

I'm not saying they're both definitely town in any way; I'm not naive enough to think that the scum can't trick me. Still, I would not be happy with either of these players as our D1 lynch.

I don't know what to tell you, Jack. I hope you get that feeling back soon.

[RedCoyote]

It's not that I don't notice it... it's that I'd feel like the town would be making a huge misstep if we were to lynch on it and get it wrong. I think I'd prefer lynching away from it and seeing how the mafia responds to it.

Mod

, may I asked who, if anyone, helped you (review/co-create) the setup?

[RedCoyote]

So doc, what do you think of our little game? You voted David pretty quick there, is that really all you have to give us?

[RedCoyote]

(Sorry, one more post)

We need a lynch most of all. It's not necessary that we take this entire burden of, "Is this claim real?", "What does this mean for Stef?", etc. on our backs today. We need to be thinking about it of course, but the town doesn't need to solve the game on D1. We're all experienced here, I don't need to tell y'all how important lynches and player flips are.

So let's find an acceptable D1 lynch, cross our fingers, and let the chips fall where they may. The deadline will sneak up on us if we let it. I'm willing to hop back on dana (although I'm beginning to think dana is a statue given how hard and immobile he's been, literally I can't remember the last time I've seen someone this solid), but I'm now thinking that isn't the best path. I'd like David. He's been sneaking around, his alliances and scumreads are all over the place, and he's absent when we need him most. I just feel like he's faking his scumhunting more than anyone else here (with the exception possibly of dr.shotty, but that's a different thing).

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, may I asked who, if anyone, helped you (review/co-create) the setup?

[RedCoyote]

I don't have anything specific to say at the moment. I don't really get the push against mykonian. It's just a big meta thing. I don't get how it's taking LynchMePls and dana up by storm. HC's point against Jack seemed much more salient, but I'm probably bias due to the fact that I was in the game he was refering to.

I would go so far as to say Magna is the most pro-town person in this game. Does everyone agree with me? Yes/No and why?

I think this is probably a pretty fair conclusion. Either MoI or HC. I also like LynchMePls a lot.

[RedCoyote]

Huh? Then why did you link us to his former scum quicktopic? Were you not attempting to establish a pattern between the games?

[RedCoyote]

Those lists are mostly all separate things, each in their own context. Although your private scumtells are off, you are perceptive about one thing. I kind of dreaded having to make a new post in this game. I'm not particularly liking where this game is going (at no fault to the Mod or the game itself), and it has withdrawn me somewhat. dana's posts depress me in a way, because he's made himself completely unreadable to, not just me, but the whole game. XScorp, Antihero, David, and you (prior to this recent surge) are kind of just trying to get by with as little involvement in the game as possible. The doc/imaginality has literally given us nothing to work with. That's half the game right there. That's not even including Stef, HC, and MoI who all just kind of come in spurts.

In regards to our original topic, mykonian's alignment, I think that's a bit complex. We see Stef in two completely different ways, Jack. I see mykonian having a valid case against Stef, and you see a proven townie being attacked. There's no way either of us could put ourselves in the other person's situation. My proposed solution is simple, and I've advocated it for a while now. I don't particularly want to see you or mykonian lynched today.

[RedCoyote]

first!

vote stef

docshotty, I thought you liked me! Why do you treat this game so bad.

---

I shot Jack last night. I felt strange about that claim from when the second he used it, and I'm not yet sure what exactly made him throw up a fake claim. He must've felt very sure about mykonian being scum.

That's okay though, I think the town is still in good shape. With a Miller about (I believe LynchMePls, even if Magna doesn't), I have to think the town has a little bit a power still.

[RedCoyote]

RC, did you pass on the vig ability to Haschel?


Before you answer, think: scum might very well try to hunt the vig tonight.

I'd prefer not to answer this, mostly because I don't see how it would benefit the town from knowing that. Moreover, I'm inclined to agree with (I never thought I'd say this!) dana here. I'm not even really sure why you asked this. I mean, I get that it (the Vig pass) would concern you regardless of what alignment you are, but I don't think you should necessarily be as worried about it if you are town.

wifom about if the role still exists might benefit the town (though I'm of the opinion that it is better to know it).

What do you mean here? Didn't the Mod say that if the scum get the power it gets taken away the next day? I don't think the town can lose the power (unless they pass it to scum, in which case it's put back into the fold the following day).

---

I want everyone to tell me
a) how many games they've played with shotty
b) what roles he was in those games
c) what they think of him so far.

Go.

a) 3
b) town, on going, on going (this one)
c) He's probably in too many games. I don't think he takes the website very seriously. Either that or he's a child... or both.

---

I do not feel it's prudent to vote Stef before he can even check the thread to defend himself.

[RedCoyote]

I asked this to check if there is still a pro-town role that might kill useless townies.

I understand where you're coming from now; I concede my earlier suspicions. To answer your question, the Mod allowed me 24 hours, post flip, to change my choice (this is probably somewhere in the rules), so I changed it to a player I thought, a, was town, and b, would use it well.

---

I'm definitely not in love with Stef's first post today. It sounds like either a dispirited townie or scum trying to play it low key.

Although I disagree with dana's take on Stef, I think it's valid for him to be suspicious of mykonian feeling like he has to fall back on that. I can see both of their positions, and I don't think either of them are approaching the game in a scummy or "wrong" way.

Vote: Stef

[RedCoyote]

Not particularly. I said it was valid; I didn't say I agreed with it (protip: check out who I'm voting). Do you think it's invalid?

[RedCoyote]

Ugh, I don't like where this game is heading. Magna's case seems fair enough, but I still get townie vibes from LynchMePls. I know I didn't have a problem with him the entirety of D1, so I have to be missing something here. These two things cannot be compatible.

Also mykonian's got me thinking about moon corporations or something, so I'm totally confused. Magna's playstyle is very, I don't know, historic? How much success do you have with this, Magna? It's not something I'm accustomed to seeing. I'm always weary of people who do a post-by-post analysis and wind up finding a way to make every post scummy. If you're going to go back and reread someone you think is scummy, there's always that fear of confirmation bias seeping in.

[RedCoyote]

Red: if you had to give a read of me now, would it be town, almost town, meh, almost scum, or scum?

I feel good about you, mykonian. Actually I should probably throw out a scumscale pretty soon.

I haven't forgotten about this game though. Either tomorrow or the day after I want to take some time to really dig into Magna/mykonian v.s. LynchMePls.

---

I think it's pretty much guaranteed from their interactions that one, but not both, of mykonian and LMP is scum.

I think those are some pretty absolute terms, dana. I really don't like the way this comment is phrased.

[RedCoyote]

This is ridiculous. With Antihero's last post I'm sensing a dogpile on LynchMePls. No one's even putting forth an effort to think for themselves except for dana here.

Mod

, can we prod Stef a little harder?

Stef and the doc, lost causes? Personally I'd like to throw the bums out.

[RedCoyote]

No, in an ideal world we'd get rid of them both and have two eager replacements to fill in.

Actually in an ideal world no one would ever replace out except when they get hit by a bus. It's not like it's hard to get on the damn Internet.

[RedCoyote]

I think I agree with Stef in that Antihero has just been coasting through the game without putting himself out there. Then again, so many people here are just sitting this one out that I feel like lynching any of them will net us the same odds on hitting scum.

Suddenly we’ve come full circle and Jack needs Vigged. Despite the fact that Jack was Town in ISO 0, that he believed Jack's claim regarding Stef, and Jack’s case on mykonian was worth a brief vote. And only making a single post inquiring of Jack (ISO 16).

I'm still scratching my head as to why this wasn't brought up earlier. Although this is bad, I'm trying to understand where the "very scummy" label lies. If we're going to pick on LynchMePls for flip-flopping on Jack, then why not mykonian? LynchMePls' initial jump into the game is Jack as town, and as the game begins mykonian/David are unafraid to say the same thing. As the game goes on, Jack is more or less being seen in a new light by everyone. Why doesn't this apply to LynchMePls as well?

As to your whole "one person at a time" remark, LynchMePls is addressing multiple people and moving his vote around. While the case can be made that he's doing so without sincerity, I am having trouble reconciling this with some of the meta you provided. I guess I'd have to weigh it against his claim, and they'd probably balance one another out.

Anyways, I'm going to have to table the issue. We have to get rid of some of these players that are being allowed to coast through. LynchMePls isn't part of that group. In fact, LynchMePls' wagon is being allowed to roll along by because the mafia are trying not to rock the boat.

Unvote

;

vote: Antihero

[RedCoyote]

Like I said in that post, I think we might as well choose between the lurkers. There's definitely scum in there, and it's more advantageous than the alternative (the alternative being Magna is scum or LynchMePls' gave a fake claim).

I don't know how you conclude whether it's mylo or not, but that's setup speculation that I don't want any part in right now.

[RedCoyote]

Really? A dogpile? At the point you made this post mykonian had more votes that LMP. So your statement makes ZERO sense and looks to be attempting to discredit LMP as a candidate.

I wasn't talking about votes, was talking specifically about the discussion in town. Antihero was setting himself up as though he was ready to jump on LynchMePls out of the blue. With you and mykonian already set on course, three votes, one third of the remaining playerbase, is a formidable pact.

Umm … the difference in LMP’s change and mykonian’s are quite different. The ONLY indication from LMP that his opinion changed was his ‘Jack would be a good vig’ post. He called Jack Town in his initial read. He back Jack’s attack on mykonian – not something you do with a scum-read. This was late in the day.

Still seems sketchy. As town I've been known to change my opinion of people, and to call LynchMePls' initial read as, like, something that shouldn't change seems a little harsh.

Lastly your ‘LMP did it but so did mykonian / DP did it too’ isn’t a valid defense. If you are saying others should be attacked for the behavior then the implication is that LMP did do it and is scummy.

I'm just trying to explain why it is that it doesn't bother me quite as much as it's bothering you.

You aren’t thinking very clearly about my statement. I’m suggesting the LMP is doing the equivalent of Serial-Tunneling. He focuses on and votes for one player and when he moves suspicions to another the past target is dropped to never re-appear in LMP’s ISO. He’s certainly not interacting with multiple suspicions at once. Town players have every reason to revisit past suspicions.

I agree with this, although I've never heard of the term "Serial-Tunneling".

It's a decent point, but there's better lynch candidates out there at the moment.

What meta evidence have I provided again?

You had mentioned Castlevania Mafia.

This is scumtastic – you are simply advocating lynching from a large pool of low-activity players as opposed to an actively scummy player. You aren’t making any effort to distinguish between the players in that pool. In a potential MYLO situation pushing off a scummy player for later only suits Mafia interest.

Well, you're pandering to fear if you're saying that the town better follow you or we'll lose in MYLO. I seem to recall how scummy you thought David was, which didn't exactly get us in the direction we needed to go. It's completely speculation to say this could be MYLO and call me scumtastic because I'm throwing an alternative wagon up.

Emphasis added – I love the false dichotomy here. I do believe LMP made a fake-claim but the way that say that only other option is me being scum is false.

What's wrong with this statement? I'm saying there is scum in the group of lurkers who are taking advantage of the opportunity not to post, and you say that LynchMePls is scum. The players only have one vote... they're going to have to choose between these two options. I'm advocating we not choose between you and LynchMePls, not that either of you have specific alignments.

[RedCoyote]

Hi to the replacements, thanks for coming in.

CSL you are replacing into a slot that isn't very high on most player's townie lists (although I liked Stef's last couple of posts personally).
nopoint you are replacing into a slot that is on an average starting point. I don't think XScorp has had much influence on the game, although he's being ignored while a similar player like LynchMePls is being really pushed hard.

I'll have more later.

[RedCoyote]

Of course it's true. Hence my behavior for this entire day.

[RedCoyote]

I agree with the mass claim; I don't think there's any point in hiding roles any longer.

[RedCoyote]

I don't know what's worse... if LynchMePls is actually town and the scum kills off our power, or if he's scum and he uses it to kill one of the "acceptable" losses who just happens to be a Townie.

We have to be very specific about this Vig shot, gentlemen.

[RedCoyote]

Haha, oh wow. dana, you just made this incredibly easy for me. Not only do both me and LynchMePls agree that he has the Vig power, no one else has countered

either

of us. You think, with how slow this game has been moving, that's just a coincidence? Worse still, you had voted me previously and unvoted... your play for this entire day is nothing if it isn't unconfident.

Hell, I'd be more convinced if you told me you had a guilty result on me yesterday rather than today! At least you had some passion about attacking me yesterday, even if it was completely misguided.

This lynch is easy as pie now, and I totally regret not pushing harder for you to be the first lynch of this game. I was never really comfortable with your play at all. I shot Jack over some freak claim he made and voted David because I second guessed my ability to read you.

Unvote

;

vote: danakillsu

LynchMePls, shoot Antihero. I don't mind taking control of the shot again, and I certainly don't think it's a bad idea. mykonian is absolutely right on both accounts.

[RedCoyote]

Additionally, I don't believe dana. We can get into the discussion of there being a Miller + Tracker, assuming you believe both claims, which doesn't add up. We can also look back over dana's posts and not really get a Tracker vibe at all. Thirdly, it really is just a horrible time to claim. If dana was really concerned about me not visiting LynchMePls, he would've brought it up earlier. I claimed that I had the power right when the day started, there was absolutely no reason to believe I would've given it to Jack. I don't think I was supportive at Jack at all this game.

Nothing adds up about this at all.

[RedCoyote]

One more thing... the Vig power is still very provable. Why would you be concerned that the shot was lost? If the Vig power was lost, obviously then you would come to me and LynchMePls for answers, but not before.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: If the Vig power was lost (if only one person was shot), obviously then you would come to me and LynchMePls for answers, but not before.

[RedCoyote]

I don't know what's worse... if LynchMePls is actually town and the scum kills off our power, or if he's scum and he uses it to kill one of the "acceptable" losses who just happens to be a Townie.

We have to be very specific about this Vig shot, gentlemen.

Hows this for specific. Right now I want to shoot mykonian. What do you think about this?

I'm waiting...

I think that's a bad call. I think you're more likely to be town that most of the other people here probably do, but you're going to get a lot of crap if you shoot someone besides Antihero. Ultimately, however, it's your call. Go with your heart.

[RedCoyote]

The Mod tried his best to address the situation, I think. He hadn't thought about a specific circumstance, so he tried to address it in the fairest way possible.

doc shotty's move, especially given his last post in the game, was downright trolling. That's what I consider it to be at least. I propose that everyone here refuses to let him in any games you may mod in the future. I would also strongly advise you, if you can help it, not to play any more games with him. I'm going to try my best not to have to play with him.

Jack's move was very, very questionable. I think he just did it because he felt very sure of himself, but that's really over-the-top for me. I don't think he thought that one through enough.

It was a mistake for us to lynch dana when we did, and I was a big part of that. When I reread his post after I made my first comment, I felt like I had made a mistake. I was really just too lazy to want to fight dana over it and try to protect LynchMePls against Magna's good posting. I just wanted that day to be over.

By the way, Magna, I want you to know that my entire D2 was so very artificial. More than just an obligation to protect LynchMePls because I sent him the vig, I felt like I really did believe his claim. You really had the better argument there, and it distressed me over how concocted I felt my posts were looking because I had no real leads in this game other than "scum team is lurking". The activity was atrocious in this game, and the scum were smart to take advantage of that.

I would say the setup is definitely town-sided. A competent town would've been able to do much better, I think. If anyone plans to use this mechanic again, I'd suggest incorporating Hiders/Bulletproof abilities in some way.

Anyways, thanks to our Mod for putting a real effort into this game throughout. Congratulations to the scumteam (although you effectively had a traitor helping you). Thanks to all the players who stayed and/or replaced in. No thanks to the doc.