PranaDevil wrote:It was only after it was proven that Dalt had been on here once before, and then had replaced out, that I began defending him. But that's only if you "can be bothered to read it yourself" of course.
Why would you ever use evidence against someone when you don't know what the evidence is, it's like you're saying what you did was ok.
PranaDevil wrote:"Because you can't comprehend him"? No, I comprehended him perfectly well. "We should no lynch, and I'll spend the entire day arguing that point and pushing that argument onto others if given a chance", which, I'll note, he did. Sorry, but Day 1 is often a crap shoot at the best of times, all wendy did was make it even more so because by being town he was pushing something that had already been stated wasn't happening repeatedly by the majority of people. That's not being a good scum hunter in the slightest.
As for the meta links? See above, not only am I not going to go using meta (because I hate it) but I'm not about to spend hours of my day reading old bygone games, those who want to, hey, that's fine, but don't go trying to make out it makes me scummy for choosing not to do so. It's something I've never done, and something I'll never do in the future either.
Sigh… you really should learn to read behind the lines. The meta links were pretty good information, and while we're on the topic would you like to provide us a few of your games as both town and scum?
PranaDevil wrote:Go on, explain. When wendy was suspicious of me the ONLY things being pointed out was that I prevented an early gambit that... I had no idea about at all. So tell me, how is that scummy? Apparently it was my fault we didn't catch scum out with someone elses gambit, a gambit I felt was a joke... I'm sorry, but if that's the scrutiny that we're basing wendy's play on, I think it leaves a lot to be desired.
I really do hope you're scum now, this is going to waste a bit of my time.
Wendy was a pretty awesome guy. Making assumptions is part of any investigation so let's make a few.
Rules state you play to your win con right? Let's assume he was doing so. Keep in mind everything he did he had a town mindset.
Now let's also assume he's someone who plays mafia for fun, he's likes to mess with all of us. First half of his posts were more towards questioning why people did certain things while the second half was more on game theory. Testing reactions and making jokes is something he does often. What I'm trying to say is that a lot of Wendy's actions were just to get reactions, everything else people did not understand was Wendy was saying. Testing reactions and making jokes is something he does often.
Wendy Iso #36 is a fantastic example of both. In this post it's a clear attempt to buddy with me, to see what my reaction would be. He also gets to see Nexus's reactions plus others seeing this post would be wondering what Wendy was thinking since this Nexus suspicion is new and respond if they wanted to. This would bring out information.
Iso #37 is just him screwing with all of us and making fun of Xite. That's why everything he had listed is reasoned as Gut, because we all know how Xite likes to use Gut for everything.
Iso #39 Wendy is demonstrating how to prove a random vote. Something Korash k had done very early in the game but does not give evidence that makes it certain. He also gives a witty comment, again to let us know he's joking and screwing with us.
Wendy wrote:Rather than waste a bunch of brain resources, I did the equivalent of flipping a coin, and we got to share a teaching moment as a side benefit.
Does no one else smile when they read this post?
Wendy's excel sheet will be useful in the future, even a little bit now. Even though we all agree to this let's stop bashing him for making the future days easier for us.
Iso #65 Wendy makes another joke, again did no one think was funny?
LmL - Why does everyone have to be freaken Professor Mafia?
Wendy - Actually I am Professor freaking mafia, "shows award"
This isn't really contributing much to scum hunting of course, I'm just trying to show that there were reasons for Wendy's posts. That being said it's interesting to note how LmL said Wendy was claiming to be a great scum hunter when he was claiming to be great at scum.
Iso #73 states that his self vote and no lynch were to get over eager scum. Wasn't really a bad idea as he had the disguise of a newbie, and with many people on him the scum might have gone after him.
Iso #76 Here's the meta report. It's too bad Xite was town, but regardless this was still useful. There's more than just links to Xite though.
Prana, if someone was to use meta against you what kind of accusations do you believe you would be faced against?
Iso #102 Gets mad at Prana, this I think is the real point where he explodes. It's understandable that someone would get mad if they constantly had to repeat themselves.
Now you're probably wondering what anything had to do with you, first off Wendy starts questioning why you weren't of the gambit. It is strange that you understood the setup you still did not go on with the gambit. Even if you did think he was joking why didn't you claim ahead anyway?
There are multiple possible answers for this, the one Wendy probably thought of
Scum - Ha ha IAU I see through your gambit and it won't work!
Also you not being a part of it hurts the chance for it to work at all which could save your partner. The problem is proving this is very hard, if not possible so he questioned you find out information.
PranaDevil wrote:That's just making stuff up to fit your case and you know it. You're stating what my thought process was, when you have no idea what my thought process was.
What my view point was, is that wendy was acting scummy as hell, and after thinking about it, he deserved a vote more than a FoS. Done deal. You're either stretching things to fit your opinion of me as being scum, or you are scum deliberately trying to paint me as scum. But either way this one was a huge, massive stretch to get the answer you're getting.
Is it?
Did you just randomly decide, hey Wendy's scummy I'll vote him?
What factors affected your choice?
Was Wendy's post between your FoS and vote important in making your vote?
Was there any new evidence brought up against Wendy that made you decide to vote against him?
Did others opinions have any affects on your vote for Wendy?
PranaDevil wrote:Except I stated earlier in my last post why I didn't give an analysis or any information prior to you asking. I see absolutely ZERO reason why I should say "X and Y appear pro-town in my eyes" it benefits the scum a whole lot more than it benefits the town. Neither of you looked likely to be lynched, and thus voicing my opinion that, at that point, I felt you were both town arguing, would have helped nobody but scum. Why are you deliberately ignoring my point about that?
Was there any holes in my reasoning, what about Wendy's defense? If you do make an analysis would it not provide content for the town to use in order to find scum?
PranaDevil wrote:I was referencing that earlier in my previous post I had stated that I said you and Nexus appeared pro-town, and that I had said so later. And I'd also explained why I didn't mention it. I note again you refused to acknowledge that fact though, as though announcing who the pro-town seeming players are somehow helps us catch scum.
What?
Saying Lat / Nexus looks town then says so later while giving a one line description while explaining why you didn't give an analysis = countering my points and being town?
Does this make sense to anyone? Can you show me which part of my case you're talking about?
PranaDevil wrote:Hold up here. You're saying I'm scummy because my feelings on someone changed from "I think he's scum" to "Not really got an opinion"? Seriously? Other people stood out more to me (CA, wendy, Fitz) to the point that I didn't have as strong of a read on Xite as I did on those three.
In fact... this entire Xite thing is you suggesting that because I ORIGINALLY said he felt like likely scum early on, that I have to retain that thought for the REMAINDER of the game, is that what we are suggesting here? Because if it is I severely think you need to rethink about how you play this game.
What?
It changed from "Lynch the witch!" to "I don't see anything interesting" WITHOUT GIVING ANY REASONING AS TO WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY
It's ok to change your opinion, but it's even better to start explaining how it changes and why when the time happens instead of completely forgetting what your past suspicions were.
PranaDevil wrote:Someone who appears scummy could even continue to appear scummy, but if others appeared scummier you would rather lynch them. In this case Xite slipped from my radar after a short while at the same time I became more and more suspicious of wendy. It stands to reason I would focus more of my attention (especially closing in on the end of the first day, which we were) on getting the person I feel is scum lynched.
You stated that he was one of the two best and strong lynches for the day, can I really only expect you to be suspicious of one person for being scum and being lynched? Can I really expect you'll completely forget your past suspicions later on?
PranaDevil wrote:I also point out that when my feelings on Xite slipped. I STOPPED trying to lynch him. I note this again because, once more, you are refusing to pick up on it. I never once tried to lynch someone who I "didn't have a strong read on" because at that stage of the game I had a stronger read on Xite than I did on others come later on. I would hope you are going to continue attacking anyone who placed a vote on someone and has since stated that they don't have a solid read one way or another.
You stated you thought he was a good lynch. Meaning you are willing to participate in his lynch if the time comes. I barely even know what're trying to say, you're feeling slipped is just another way to say you forgot everything that happened and went after the easiest target is it not?
PranaDevil wrote:No, early game he still felt somewhat scummy, by the time wendy had gone nuts, Xite hadn't posted anything that I could see (standing out at least) overtly scummy. However it's also true I was focusing my attention on wendy more than most by this point, however I had planned to do a full read on Xite when we returned, I've stated this previously as well (before we even went to night phase no less), and something may have stood out more then, I don't know, I'm not about to go wasting my time searching Xite's posts at the moment when he got lynched. Thus rather than "forgetting everything from before" which is just stupid, it was simply that I was no longer paying as close attention to Xite, which meant he felt less scummy to me after that point, and as I had wound up not paying extra attention to his posts because I was having a lot (and yes, likely too much, I admit) of back and forth with wendy. You are suggesting I should have lied and said I felt Xite was scummy when I didn't feel he was by this point. By telling the truth you are claiming I am lying, yet by what you are saying, you are suggesting I should have lied. This makes no sense!
Sigh… If I have ever stated any where that you should lie please quote that and show me. Until then I am going to assume you're putting words in my mouth, until then I guess we might has well say having inconsistent suspicions on people is ok along with using I forgot as an excuse for scummy behavior. I can't see any pro town player completely ignoring not only someone who he was suspicious of and believed was a strong lynch but also forgetting when he had these suspicions, which were there for more than one post.
PranaDevil wrote:Okay… let's see those:
1 - How? Show me my "opportunistic voting and lynching". I've not once been "opportunistic" in my voting, I voted wendy after only ONE vote had gone on him, one, not 3 or 4 which would be opportunistic, a single lone vote. I voted because I found wendy scummy. Done deal.
2 - Inconsistant views... we're back to the Xite thing again aren't we? That's the only legitimate thing I'll accept, but that's due to focusing on wendy over Xite, which is bad play on my part, not scummy play on my part. There's a difference.
3 - Willing to lynch... ah bollocks, this crap thing again, read up above, I've already answered it, and you're just wrong and talking out your ass to make your story fit, it's the old case of "say something enough times and people will believe it" routine that has been used for years.
4 - Lying... yeah... not done so yet, however you're on my case because I dared to be honest.
1. Take a look and see, and yes that vote was opportunistic. You are lying again. Your vote wasn't the second. It was the 4th. Post #355 Night / Xite are voting for Wendy. LmL then votes. Then you vote. YOU LIED.
2. Yeah we're back to Xite. Then again forgetting any suspicions you've had is ok now so whatev.
3. You said you thought Xite was a strong lynch, are you denying this?
4. I don't know man, but apparently forgetting everything you do is ok now so whatev, but it's interesting to go back to the "uses evidence against people without reading it" I can't even see a town player who wants to win not read the thread. Did you even click the link that havingfitz posted, you would have seen that the game was two years ago, a point you defended.
PranaDevil wrote:So I'm now scummy because I don't have a notepad file, or an excel file keeping tabs of absolutely everything that goes on? Seriously?! I'm supposed to store and save tons of data just to play this game? If you do that, fine, well done for you, but don't expect everyone else who plays the game to do the same. Sorry for not being such an uber scum hunter like yourself.
Why can't you comprehend me? That's not what I'm saying at all.
Prana wrote:I'd rather back down on a case because I've lost track of it and didn't have time to properly go over it
This post sounds like you had a case against Xite, I am asking you if you have a case. Now you're going on about you don't take notes.
Does this mean the case you had does not exist?
PranaDevil wrote:No, I admit I got distracted, but it had nothing to do with "looking active", and everything to do with "I honestly thought wendy was scum trying to distract town", unfortunately I wound up distracted by that as a whole, but I'm still going to state wendy's play was, at best, anti-town, and at worst, scummy. Even if he did flip town.
Sigh… still missing the point. I want you to start scum hunting right now. As in now. Do you know when? Now? Still wondering when? Start scum hunting.
PranaDevil wrote:I love this line, you may as well be saying, "Hey, what's everyone else doing? I'm going to keep tunnelling on Prana so come join me."
whatev, nevermind Prana's town and we should all stop being active.
LmL wrote:Prana (I'm not sold on the Prana case at this point. I think he defended himself well enough for me right now.)
I'm confused, how exactly did he defend himself well? His defense consisted of,
1. Wah Lateralus tell everyone how pro town I am
2. I forgot
3. Wendy sucks
4. I keep forgetting
Oh wait forgetting is cool if you're acting scummy.
Is there something I'm missing from post #656? Is there any holes in my reasoning?
Also can we please not use WIFOM as the basis of our cases on how people are scummy? One thing is clear from observation, without wendy the day starts with a clean slate. Sure there's some small suspicions but nothing really to get us going fast as how wendy being alive was (NO PRANA DOESN'T COUNT). If the day might have gone on it's possible scum might have been exposed or caught the day afterwards for whatever reason so they played it safe and started the day with a clean slate. If anything I actually think both scum are on separate wagons, it didn't really matter which one died.