Mini 1026 - Ohne Mafia (Game Over!)

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

I'm not wrong about furc. I can't fathom why this doesn't make him confirmed. Who else could he possibly be talking to?

[archaebob]

EBWOP: No really, I'm not wrong about Furc.

[foilist13]

Well if that's the way it's going to go, then there's nothing else for it.

Is Archaebob at L-1?

[moose200x]

Boberz- Do you feel abob and foilist have almost tied the town's hands with their lynch this group or that policy? I was so close to being lynched then everyone forgot about me. We tried to put pressure on wraith and it turned into this whole "OMG I FOUND ALL SCUM" tirade by abob. And that's all based off "I see what you did there" a common saying on many forums, meant to mock someone. Just like you said about herz, we just stopped pressing him for some reason.

It just seems to me that Abob/Foil are making this big scene and allowing so many people to go unchecked. They've tied our hands. If soemone like NB and Caelum are mafia then we'd be screwed since we have not attacked either or put pressure on them. We lynch foil today and he is town, you already know that abob is next. BAM he flips town... we fucked, it's d3 with 4 townies gone and game over (maybe, i dont know the setup, guessing 9town, 3maf or 8pr's and 4 maf)

Fur's random claim going unchecked makes no sense to me. It is so un-town in every way.

[archaebob]

Well, that was extremely hilarious.

My friend just called from California to tell me that she will NOT be arriving today, and will be flying in late tomorrow night instead. And now she'll be staying until Tuesday.

Fur's random claim going unchecked makes no sense to me. It is so un-town in every way.

Then vote him. No one's stopping you. If you believe that both foil and I can be town who are just moronically screwing over everyone, then vote someone else. I've already said many times that I'm just as happy to lynch furcolow as I am wraith or foilist.

Well if that's the way it's going to go, then there's nothing else for it.

Is Archaebob at L-1?

Lol. Why does this matter?

Is anyone else noticing how completely waffly and indecisive foilist has been with his stances for the last few pages? And don't even try to twist that around on me, I'm being waffly with my self-policy-lynch idea, not my reads.

This definitely looks to me like someone who's being careful not to make a mistake, and is trying to keep his options open. If you really are as sure about my being scum as you have said over and over again in this thread (and he has. not as dramatically as me maybe, but he has), then why are you

still

too scared to vote me?

[foilist13]

Because I'm not going to hammer you yet. Gee what a thought

[Wraith]

The amount of WIFOM that this requires to be true stretches the limits of belief for it. It relies on:

1. Lots of Meta. Meta can be manipulated to the user's advantage, and playstyles can change entirely between games. Meta is unreliable.
2. Foilist overreacting. Considering how zealously you're pushing a lynch against him, and that you are so certain as to who his partners are and what his strategy is, he doesn't seem to be overreacting at all to me.
3. That Foilist is bussing. Foilist could just be overzealous and using craplogic. The only "evidence" supporting Abob's belief that foilist is bussing is meta knowledge, which I've already stated is unreliable. Plus, I believe he is stating that "foilist is ruthless enough to bus both partners." @Abob: If you did post an example where foilist DID bus both partners in a game where he was scum and I missed it, refer me to it please. Otherwise, there's no basis for such a claim aside from Abob's meta beliefs combined with WIFOM.

Furthermore, I believe the only basis for his case against Furcolow is that Furc has played a scummy game. Since you love your meta, I'll use my own - you'll find that Furcolow always plays scummy, and this has been stated multiple times.

This is a giant gamble by Abob to cause a series of mislynches, with or without Foilist. Personally, however, I think foilist is in on it and is a failsafe in case Abob is lynched instead, thereby gaining at least one of the players massive town cred. Either way, I think Abob is scum.

[NicolBolas]

votecount please, mod

[Furcolow]

vote: archaebob

he is lying about me, so I hope he flips scum. If he doesn't, his reads are wrong, and he should go read some wiki

[Zhero]

Vote Count 10

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

archaebob (4): boberz, Wraith, Hrezs, Furcolow
caelum (1): Tasky
foilist13 (2): NicolBolas, archaebob
Furcolow (1): foilist13
Hrezs (1): caelum

Not Voting: Caycedo, esuriospiritus, moose200x

Prodding Caycedo.

@mod when did caelum say he was getting back?

Caelum is V/LA until the 25th. So, today.

[Wraith]

Sacrificing yourself doesn't work that way abob. You don't get to change the terms of agreement. You seem less confident than before now that people are willing to lynch you. This 'vig me night 2' is crap. Thats not sacrificing yourself at all. That's 'give me some time' so I don't have to die despite being the one to bring this idea up'

That said, my stance is the only person I'm willing to vote for right now are abob and wraith

Then why is your vote still on caelum?

[Wraith]

Also @foilist: For all your crusading against archaebob and myself, you are voting Furcolow. Why?

[Furcolow]

because he is probably archaebob's scumbuddy, and they are epically detracting from our ability to see it

[archaebob]

The amount of WIFOM that this requires to be true stretches the limits of belief for it. It relies on:

1. Lots of Meta. Meta can be manipulated to the user's advantage, and playstyles can change entirely between games. Meta is unreliable.
2. Foilist overreacting. Considering how zealously you're pushing a lynch against him, and that you are so certain as to who his partners are and what his strategy is, he doesn't seem to be overreacting at all to me.
3. That Foilist is bussing. Foilist could just be overzealous and using craplogic. The only "evidence" supporting Abob's belief that foilist is bussing is meta knowledge, which I've already stated is unreliable. Plus, I believe he is stating that "foilist is ruthless enough to bus both partners." @Abob: If you did post an example where foilist DID bus both partners in a game where he was scum and I missed it, refer me to it please. Otherwise, there's no basis for such a claim aside from Abob's meta beliefs combined with WIFOM.

Furthermore, I believe the only basis for his case against Furcolow is that Furc has played a scummy game. Since you love your meta, I'll use my own - you'll find that Furcolow always plays scummy, and this has been stated multiple times.

This is a giant gamble by Abob to cause a series of mislynches, with or without Foilist. Personally, however, I think foilist is in on it and is a failsafe in case Abob is lynched instead, thereby gaining at least one of the players massive town cred. Either way, I think Abob is scum.

1) Foilist's case on me is even more predicated on meta than mine is. In fact, find me all the points that foilist has made about my being scum that do not ultimately boil down to meta.

2) LOL at this slip. Yes wraith, you're right. Considering how certain I am about who his partners are and what his strategy is, his reaction is to be expected. It makes perfect sense that he would react like this, actually. BUT, if he was town, he wouldn't

have

partners. And I'd be wrong about his strategy, so he would have nothing to react to so emotionally.

And anyways, I haven't once presented his overreaction as a serious cornerstone of my case against him, so I don't know what you're going on about.

3) And lol again. Wraith, are you even paying attention to what you are writing? Absolutely

every word

of this third point applies to foilist just as much as it does to me. I don't have an example of him bussing both partners, but neither does he. I

do

however have a pretty significant example of his bussing his

other

partner in a game where there was only two scum. And it's been linked in this thread twice now.

Oh really huh? That's my only basis against furcolow? Let's take a look at the

evidence

.

Back when the only thing furcolow had done was play a scummy game, I was arguing this:

@ Furc -

I'm not interested in discussing anything with you anymore. You're useless to me. I can't even get a read on you because of how much of a VI you are.

@ vig (if you exist) - Please please PLEASE kill furcolow tonight. It's not just because I don't like him, it's because his level of play is so low that we'll never be able to read him as scum or town one way or the other. His play serves only to impede and distract the town.

It would be preferable not to have to lynch him, as it would be a policy lynch and would therefore stifle discussion. But if he's still alive tomorrow I don't really think we have a choice.

I'm done wasting my time on him, and I would recommend that all of us just ignore him completely for the rest of today. He has no useful contribution to make, and we're not going to get any information about his alignment from him.

That all changed when furcolow confirmed himself as scum by blatantly talking to foilist about the fact that he was being bussed.

@ everyone -

Look at this last post by wraith and tell me he isn't scum.

Don't ignore what I just wrote.

Seriously look at this last post and tell me wraith isn't scum. He isn't reading this thread carefully at all. He already knows who he's going to side with if it comes down between foilist and myself, and is attempting to justify his entirely arbitrary vote with a bunch of bull that applies equally to foilist as it does to myself.

Do not let him get away with this after I am dead.

Hey Wraith, what happened to this?

Archaebob

0: confirm
1: hello
2: randomvote
3: asks Furcolow why a serious FoS but keeping randomvote
4: WoT on boberz,

accuses boberz of overreaction, overdefensiveness, and WIFOM defense

5: EBWOP
6: offtopic
7: offtopic
8: asks Furcolow why he wants a claim
9:

pushes lurker/absentees to commit and scumhunt

10:

joins Furcolow wagon for no reason

11: tells boberz not to claim

12: attacks Furcolow for rolefishing

13: tells foilist to do a votecount
14:

attacks Furcolow for avoiding questions and rolefishing

, asks boberz for meta
15: offtopic
16:

attacks NB wagon, refuting reasoning for it

, attacks boberz for overdefensiveness/nervousness,

player analysis

17:

attacks Furcolow for rolefishing and avoiding questions again

, believes Furcolow is scum or VI
18: meta
19: meta
20: clarifies stance on nervousness=scumtell, attacks boberz
21: attacks Hrescz, wants Furcolow meta
22: suggests not posting "rank lists" of suspicions
23:

attacks Furcolow for randomvoting late in the game

24: comments to Hrescz
25: wants prod for a2rudeboy
26: wants rudeboy to replace out, wants vig kill on Furcolow,

moves off Furcolow

, votes Moose for flailing
27: pushes foilist for participation
28: attacks Hrescz
29: asks several players for opinions on other players, believes Furcolow is VI to be vigkilled, votes FEMM for lurking
30:

pushes to lay off Furcolow

,

FoS foilist for deliberate craplogic

31: pushes for scumhunts on lurkers
32:

suddenly doesn't care and wants to wagon any of the lurkers/absentees

33: EBWOP
34:

votes Wraith for wagoning reasons

35:

pushes NB to vote Wraith for no reason

36:

WoT on own playstyle and play of others

37:

claims will vote for biggest bandwagon

38: votes moose for idiot play
39:

asks players to hold pressure on Wraith but not hammer until he can defend himself

40: explains play to foilist
41: attacks Moose, prefers Moose lynch

but keeps vote on Wraith

42: attacks Moose
43: unvotes Moose for claim, votes Tasky for lurking
44: votes Wraith,

restates not caring about who we wagon

45: comments on Wraith's analysis
46: comments on Wraith's analysis
47: votes Wraith, FoS foilist and Furcolow
48:

WoT on Wraith/foilist/Furcolow scumteam

(while paranoid and overanalyzing he brings up some fair points on the play of all, especially foilist)
49: comments on foilist
50: attacks Wraith, believes Hrescz is town
51: comments on Wraith
52: comments on WoT
53: doesn't want anyone to vote Wraith because Wraith will self-hammer (confusion here)

Even if he is wrong, archaebob is obviously town. He has made smart arguments and is zealously scumhunting, aside from a short lull of "I'll jump on the best wagon." Most of the italics here are highlighted because they are scumhunting atacks that have good/valid reasoning. However, I'll add in that his recent play (last 4-5 pages or so) has been distinctly less townie than his earlier play Z(since he backed off of Furcolow). Now I'm confusing myself with WIFOM.

Conclusion: PossiblyTown

And this?

bold is scummy, italic is townie

foilist

0: confirm
1: history with AB
2: no RQS, randomvote
3: suspects Furcolow and boberz
4: note on post 3 time
5: comments on voting patterns
6: offtopic
7: attacks on Furcolow,

suspicions of boberz for defending himself, wants AB to ease off scumhunting

8: offtopic
9: EBWOP, votes Furcolow
10: catching up IRL issues
11: claims Furcolow is scummy for wanting claims but not willing to claim himself

(BS logic) Possible that foilist is rolefishing himself

12: attacks Wraith based on

post-wording. (BS logic)

13:

attacks NB for "active lurking," which is total BS

14: claims may change vote to Furcolow based on response to moose
15: calls out Wraith on ignoring questions, asks NB to prove alignment
16: asks Furcolow top three suspects
17: believes Moose is noob town
18: believes Furcolow is failtown
19: restates case

(BS logic)

on NB, believes Moose is noob
20: asks Moose for meta, votes Moose, believes Moose is scum masquerading VI
21: will step up activity,

suspects Wraith and encourages attacks without basis

22:

calls out Tasky on craplogic

, willing to wagon Tasky
23:

attacks NB repeatedly for IoA but unvotes, votes Wraith for no reason

24: player analysis, attacks Wraith, Hrescz
25: attacks Moose
26: accepts AB's explanation of play, then

IGMEOYs

(?)
27: EBWOP
28:

unvotes Wraith to prevent hammer before he can defend himself

29: pro-town read on AB, votes Moose
30: asks Moose about claiming cop
31: asks Moose for claim
32:

rolefishing on Moose

33: not going to unvote Moose
34: comments
35: not voting FEMM because of replacing, not voting Hrescz because rather vote Wraith or Moose
36:

votes Wraith because doesn't want wagon dropped, flip-flopping

37: comments on AB's play
38: WoT on Wraith,

full of craplogic, case is based mostly around overanalyzed post wording, accuses parroting despite earlier scumhunting

39: offtopic
40: rebuttal to AB
41: WoT on arhcaebob

(OMGUS), votes Wraith anyway

Foilist has been picking someone to tunnel and then moves off when momentum on the wagon grinds to a halt. He started with a crap case against NB (who is clearly town at this point), then to Moose, then moved on to me (started with no reason), then back to Moose, then moved to Hrescz (bussing?), and now he's moved back to me now that AB has made a convincing case against me. He has consistently used craplogic in all his cases or no logic at all. For accusing NB of "flip-flopping" initially, he sure has done a crapton of it himself. Preview Edit: He has suddenly switched gears against someone who he hasn't focused much on: Archaebob. He blatantly makes an OMGUS case against him but votes for me regardless.

Conclusion: Scum

I mean, talk about flip-flopping.

[Wraith]

You have used his overreaction as a cornerstone of your case. Maybe not a serious cornerstone but a cornerstone nonetheless:

Foilist, reading the above, completely flips his lid:

Here Archaebob is trying to show me as scum by linking you to my first game of mafia ever, over a year ago, in which I was town. He isn't pointing out contrasts, he's pointing out similarities.

In D2, me being an idiot, I lied about several of my posts and fake claimed cop in order to try and stay alive. Archaebob is now going to try and tell you that that shows what I sound like when I'm not being truthful, and is going to then try and link that to what's happening now. Let me save you some time. It's bullshit.

The only way someone might believe this is if they are impressed with the sheer amount of work Archaebob put into it, and how clever he sounds linking you to a game so long ago.

Let's try a more recent game.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=12592&start=0

This is mini 873. Much more recent.

In this Archaebob acts exactly the same way. He is bossy, posts WoT frequently, and is generally considered to be pro-town. Except for his random votes in the beginning, he never votes scum. Ever. This is who you're listening to.

So you try to discredit me, I discredit you. Interesting how that works.

This is a HUGE overreaction, which is very unlike modern-day foilist. Especially since I hadn't even really made an argument yet. Foilist sees my link, thinks I'm trying to "discredit him" by linking to his first game on the site ever (like that makes sense...he was the cop in that game anyways 0_0) , and totally goes balls out trying to dig up whatever embarrassing fossil he can find from my own past. And all of this he does so that can discredit me right back in my face!!! Ouch foil. You got me.

I'm still not sure how exactly I got this far under foilist's skin with one little unexplained link, but I will say that it's pretty empowering to have that kind of authority over someone else's emotions. Especially a scumbag like him who I'm about to get lynched.

On your response to my point 3: The point isn't that both of you are trying to bus, it's your "proof" that foilist is bussing being based solely on your meta belief that foilist is ruthless enough to do so.

On Furcolow, I think you are referring to this exchange? (I think you quoted it in an earlier post? correct me if I'm wrong):

This is something we can use. Furcolow is clearly lacking in intelligence, which means this is something he would actually do as scum. Up to this point he's been self righteous and abrasive towards every player, yet here there is sudden special treatment for Wraith. If Wraith is scum then we need to take a serious second look at Furcolow.

More intelligent than you, obviously.

Perfect example of how he behaves towards all other players

I see what you did there

IMO this is just a mini-flame war between two people. Foilist insults Furc, Furc insults him back, both rebuttal one after another. Spam, but not scum talking to each other, unless you are scum with them and know exactly what it means. Either way, you're either wrong or bussing.

On my ISOs, those were before the massive War of WIFOM between you two. Opinions change.

[Furcolow]

pretty sure they're trying to bus one another
how else would archaebob know foilist is even trying to bus or that's his playstyle?
it's obvious to me archaebob/foilist is scum, or possibly both

[archaebob]

@ Wraith -

Do you know what cornerstone means?

Yeah, that's true, opinions change. Why did yours change? Foilist has been no less metabased in his attacks than me. And you conveniently ignored every part of my last post that challenged you to substantiate your opinion on that point.

As far as furcolow goes, your interpretation of this is bull, and you know it. Furcolow didn't

flame

foilist. That little quote at the end there is not an insult. It's a very specific comment.

"I saw what you just tried to do there. You think you're being sneaky, but I can tell what you're setting up, asshole. You aren't that subtle, I SEE YOU WHAT YOU DID THERE."

If furcolow was trying to "flame" foilist, he would call him a butt face, or insult him in some other

very non-subtle way

. None of foilist's "insults" were all that subtle either, so there is no reason for furcolow to let him know that he "saw what you did there." The only subtle thing that foilist did in his post before this exchange was

set furcolow up to be lynched the next day.

You are deliberately trying to brush this little exchange under the rug. Don't even waste your time. Nobody who thinks seriously about this will have any confusion what furcolow was trying to say to foilist. And I hope that the way you are trying to twist this around helps them see you even more clearly for the scumbag we both know you are.

[moose200x]

I am still stuck on "I see what you did there"

Archaebob, I just don't get it I'm sorry.

[archaebob]

@ moose -

What furcolow "sees there" is that foilist was setting him up to be lynched the next day. That's the only thing which is there to be "seen."

This is something we can use. Furcolow is clearly lacking in intelligence, which means this is something he would actually do as scum. Up to this point he's been self righteous and abrasive towards every player, yet here there is sudden special treatment for Wraith. If Wraith is scum then we need to take a serious second look at Furcolow.

Here, foilist makes an argument that Furcolow might be scum if wraith is. This means that if wraith flips scum, furcolow is more likely to be scum according to foilist.

More intelligent than you, obviously.

Perfect example of how he behaves towards all other players

Here, they insult each other. It's a short back and forth of insults. And then furcolow writes this:

I see what you did there

What do you think furcolow sees moose? Go and read that part of the thread (bottom of page 17/top of page 18). There is

nothing

there for furcolow to have "seen" except the fact that foilist just tried to set him up for a lynch the next day.

And the way in which he makes his comment sounds like he is on a little secret with foilist. Most of the people in the game have said at one point or another that furcolow should die. Why is he responding this way to foilist only?

My theory: Furcolow

knows

that wraith is scum, and

knows

that when he flips, the argument that foil made in the first quote of his post will come into play. Furcolow will then be on the hot seat. He also knows that foilist is his scumpartner, and is doing all this on purpose to get town credit for lynching wraith and furcolow one after the other. Furcolow doesn't like this one bit, because he's selfish and stupid. So, even though he's not quite dumb enough to say "Foilist! Stop bussing me", he

is

going to jab back at foilist at least to

let him know

that he "sees" what foilist did there.

What he's basically saying is this:

"You know what foilist, you're a big fat jerk. I can tell that you're trying to bus me, which I think is really mean, because you're on my scumteam, so you should really be my friend. You think you're so clever huh? Yeah, well I can see what you're doing, you're not as smart as you think you are asshole. I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE!!!"

In my opinion, moose, that is the only interpretation of this exchange that makes any sense. That's what both my gut and logic are telling me.

Do you understand what I'm saying now?

[archaebob]

GRRR.

@ moose:

Look at this one instead.

EBWOP:

What furcolow "sees there" is that foilist was setting him up to be lynched the next day. That's the only thing which is there to be "seen."

This is something we can use. Furcolow is clearly lacking in intelligence, which means this is something he would actually do as scum. Up to this point he's been self righteous and abrasive towards every player, yet here there is sudden special treatment for Wraith. If Wraith is scum then we need to take a serious second look at Furcolow.

Here, foilist makes an argument that Furcolow might be scum if wraith is. This means that if wraith flips scum, furcolow is more likely to be scum according to foilist.

More intelligent than you, obviously.

Perfect example of how he behaves towards all other players

Here, they insult each other. It's a short back and forth of insults. And then furcolow writes this:

I see what you did there

What do you think furcolow sees moose? Go and read that part of the thread (bottom of page 17/top of page 18). There is

nothing

there for furcolow to have "seen" except the fact that foilist just tried to set him up for a lynch the next day.

And the way in which he makes his comment sounds like he is on a little secret with foilist. Most of the people in the game have said at one point or another that furcolow should die. Why is he responding this way to foilist only?

My theory: Furcolow

knows

that wraith is scum, and

knows

that when he flips, the argument that foil made in the first quote of his post will come into play. Furcolow will then be on the hot seat. He also knows that foilist is his scumpartner, and is doing all this on purpose to get town credit for lynching wraith and furcolow one after the other. Furcolow doesn't like this one bit, because he's selfish and stupid. So, even though he's not quite dumb enough to say "Foilist! Stop bussing me", he

is

going to jab back at foilist at least to

let him know

that he "sees" what foilist did there.

What he's basically saying is this:

"You know what foilist, you're a big fat jerk. I can tell that you're trying to bus me, which I think is really mean, because you're on my scumteam, so you should really be my friend. You think you're so clever huh? Yeah, well I can see what you're doing, you're not as smart as you think you are asshole. I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE!!!"

In my opinion, moose, that is the only interpretation of this exchange that makes any sense. That's what both my gut and logic are telling me.

Do you understand what I'm saying now?

[Furcolow]

i don't agree at all
most arguments like that are town on town

[moose200x]

most

arguments like that are town on town

Not all?

[foilist13]

unvote, vote: Archaebob

Clearly no one is going to lynch Wraith first. Congrats archaebob, you got what you wanted.

[moose200x]

unvote, vote: Archaebob

Clearly no one is going to lynch Wraith first. Congrats archaebob, you got what you wanted.

Panic much?

[archaebob]

All three scum are now on my wagon. I wonder if this has ever happened in a game on D1 before?