Mafia on Holy Orders (Game Over!)

[Furcolow]

ok, please don't pick me apart for getting my a and b confused. you know what i mean.

[Locke Lamora]

What fence? I say Beefster's come along, said what basically amounts to nothing about Furcolow and Friend and then thrown out some pointless battery-powered deadline speculation, when it's explained in the first post. And now here he goes again with post restrictions. He says that he thinks at least one of Furcolow and Friend are scum, but votes for me, and what is 'at least I've tried' supposed to mean? Do scum not try? So no, I'm not voting for the sake of voting, I'm voting because I think Beefster's scum.

[Socrates]

I am not a fan of the Beefster wagon.

[animorpherv1]

Something's strange. Why would Ani not mention me and the supposed need for my policy lynchinz?

DONT U </3 ME ANI?

Vote: Ani

Hi Fate.

I had no idea you were playing, and IMO, Furcolow needs lynching more.

[animorpherv1]

EBWOP:

Happy scumday Plum.

[Iecerint]

@ Soc -- convince me that Friend is a better wagon.

[Socrates]

What was your impression of the arguments that I have already given?

Do you believe that Beefster is deliberately giving sub-par contributions?

[Iecerint]

I am sympathetic to Friend being scum, if you're referring to your argument to that effect. Your feelings about Beefster seem pretty nonspecific, though.

No, I don't think his contributions are deliberately subpar. I've never played with Beefster before, though, so I have no reason to assume as much. If you know something about him that you think is relevant for interpreting his behavior, please teach me.

[vezokpiraka]

I feel scum.
How can you vote after 4 votes in random?
I voted furcolow. I provided 114 for scum meta.
Wraith and Agar are probably scums.

unvote vote Agar

[mothrax]

Geez, 8 pages. I am disliking ani's push for furclowe on policy. Seems forced to me.

unvote, vote animorpherv1

[Friend]

Socrates is either horribly misguided or scum. Defending ani I can see, but beefster? Really?

[Plum]

What's the scum motivation for defending Beefster?

[Socrates]

I am sympathetic to Friend being scum, if you're referring to your argument to that effect. Your feelings about Beefster seem pretty nonspecific, though.

No, I don't think his contributions are deliberately subpar. I've never played with Beefster before, though, so I have no reason to assume as much. If you know something about him that you think is relevant for interpreting his behavior, please teach me.

In my view of the game, there are two main ways for one to justify that a person is scum.

1) Prove that some involuntary aspect of a player's play is indicative of a scum mindset. Basically, show that they wouldn't do what they are doing if they had a town role PM.

2) Prove that their actions are deliberately done with malicious intent.

We have ruled out the latter if we agree that Beefster's poor play is not deliberate, thus we must prove the former. So the simple question is this: What has Beefster done that he would not do if he was town? Even if someone makes the argument that his statements are not a legitimate means of contribution, that is largely irrelevant because Beefster himself MUST think that what he is posting holds weight even IF he is scum or he would not have posted it in the first place.

Comparatively, with Friend's play, I am coming from the latter perspective. I believe his earlier play had hints of dissonance with regards to his stances on Ani and Furcolow. His stance (Thinks Ani is scummy, but still supporting the Furc wagon) was a useful one as scum if both Furc and ani happened to be town, because if the wagon goes through (which was semi-likely, as Furc was rapidly digging his own hole at the time and gaining votes), he is well placed to attack the primary cause of the mislynch, thus a scum Friend would want the wagon to continue, but by only supporting the wagon indirectly and staying off of it himself, if the wagon fails to go through, he would be relatively safe from any fallout from that wagon. The dissonance comes in when his stances didn't make much sense from a town perspective, in my opinion. He thinks pressure on Furc was a good thing and wanted the wagon to continue, but was unwilling to participate in the wagon himself, and not only that, but he thought the primary pusher of the wagon was himself scum. His play doesn't make a lot of sense from town, but does make a lot of sense from scum.

My interactions with Friend have largely been me trying to gauge his honesty in his arguments, and to be honest, my scum read is fading just a little bit, but I still think this is the best place for my vote right now.

[Beefster]

Beefster, what gives you the impression there's more than one player with a post restriction?

The signups had 19 players and there are only 17 in this game.
Not to mention balance. It just seems like something you'd do to make players wonder.

[Beefster]

What fence?

Denial is a river in Africa.

I say Beefster's come along, said what basically amounts to nothing about Furcolow and Friend

Explain.

and then thrown out some pointless battery-powered deadline speculation, when it's explained in the first post.

Yes, it was explained, but I wondered how specifically it would decrease over time.

And now here he goes again with post restrictions. He says that he thinks at least one of Furcolow and Friend are scum, but votes for me, and what is 'at least I've tried' supposed to mean? Do scum not try? So no, I'm not voting for the sake of voting, I'm voting because I think Beefster's scum.

Does anyone else see some backpedaling going on here?

[Friend]

What's the scum motivation for defending Beefster?

Either they're scumbuddies or he's distancing himself from a possible mislynch to gain "town cred" if Beefster indeed is town.

Comparatively, with Friend's play, I am coming from the latter perspective. I believe his earlier play had hints of dissonance with regards to his stances on Ani and Furcolow. His stance (Thinks Ani is scummy, but still supporting the Furc wagon) was a useful one as scum if both Furc and ani happened to be town, because if the wagon goes through (which was semi-likely, as Furc was rapidly digging his own hole at the time and gaining votes), he is well placed to attack the primary cause of the mislynch, thus a scum Friend would want the wagon to continue, but by only supporting the wagon indirectly and staying off of it himself, if the wagon fails to go through, he would be relatively safe from any fallout from that wagon. The dissonance comes in when his stances didn't make much sense from a town perspective, in my opinion. He thinks pressure on Furc was a good thing and wanted the wagon to continue, but was unwilling to participate in the wagon himself, and not only that, but he thought the primary pusher of the wagon was himself scum. His play doesn't make a lot of sense from town, but does make a lot of sense from scum.

You're missing what I said earlier, though. I said if I felt the wagon was going to lead to a lynch, I would try to stop it actively - I know I can't "prove" that necessarily but it's true nonetheless.

So the simple question is this: What has Beefster done that he would not do if he was town? Even if someone makes the argument that his statements are not a legitimate means of contribution, that is largely irrelevant because Beefster himself MUST think that what he is posting holds weight even IF he is scum or he would not have posted it in the first place.

Well, for one, if he was town, maybe he would try to formulate arguments and opinions of his own instead of sheeping on the general mindset of the town. You're acting like scum can never say things that show laziness or disinterest in the game, which is what he did, essentially.

[Iecerint]

OK, so, @ Soc, your bit about BS doesn't make much sense to me. I'm going to summarize it as I read it so that I can show me where I am wrong:

There are 2 ways scum can seem scummy:

A) By accident
B) On purpose

You agreed with me when I said BS wasn't intentionally a crap player, so the question is whether he is scummy by accident. But it isn't an accident because he does it (?????).

So...are you basically saying "BS is VI"?

Also, I think we talked past one another on the first part -- I thought you were asking whether I thought BS was a player like Furco who deliberately plays with a scummy style.

I can see where you're coming from in the paragraph about Friend, though.

[Friend]

Does anyone else see some backpedaling going on here?

No..not particularly.

[Furcolow]

Something's strange. Why would Ani not mention me and the supposed need for my policy lynchinz?

DONT U </3 ME ANI?

Vote: Ani

Hi Fate.

I had no idea you were playing, and IMO, Furcolow needs lynching more.

Can you seriously shut up? You do this every single game I've played with you, when at least

some

of my posts are not one-liners. You are a much better policy lynch than I am.

You were almost policy lynched on D1 for SA2 because you fucking laundered like an idiot and picked up an insanity you didn't need to take. You didn't think to ward someone?

OK, so, @ Soc, your bit about BS doesn't make much sense to me. I'm going to summarize it as I read it so that I can show me where I am wrong:

There are 2 ways scum can seem scummy:

A) By accident
B) On purpose

You agreed with me when I said BS wasn't intentionally a crap player, so the question is whether he is scummy by accident. But it isn't an accident because he does it (?????).

So...are you basically saying "BS is VI"?

Also, I think we talked past one another on the first part -- I thought you were asking whether I thought BS was a player like Furco who deliberately plays with a scummy style.

I can see where you're coming from in the paragraph about Friend, though.

add:
c) their teammates
d) investigative roles ...poor millers... all those poor millers that have died due to investigations... makes me want to cry

I do not

deliberately

play with a scummy style

[Furcolow]

ebwop: if someone is wondering how there were actions prior to d1 in stars aligned II, it is because it started at night iirc

[Wraith]

FoS: Fate

for a randomvote on page 7

The following will include a lot of restatement, because I think some of what I said has gone unnoticed. My top suspects at the moment are:

-Ani, for the pushing an early policy lynch off only meta. THe fact that he is now

smoking

because of it

only deepens my suspicion.
-Vezo, for the tunneling of Furcolow for poor reasons. AGar said it well.
-Fate, for the randomvote
-Locke Lamora, for a poor vote and, as AGar said, fence-sitting-ish. There is no reason at the moment to think Beefster is scum except that Icerint got a seemingly good mod reaction for voting him (for an actual reason)

@ani: That's why I've said he should be vigkilled later on if we can't find scum, just to be safe. Furcolow strikes me more as if someone was role-playing a Miller, and I don't think a lynch should be wasted on him.

I've decreased my suspicion of Incerint because he is now bathed in warm light. This is probably for voting Beefster, although I currently think the Beefster wagon is stupid. Time will tell.

[animorpherv1]

Geez, 8 pages. I am disliking ani's push for furclowe on policy. Seems forced to me.

unvote, vote animorpherv1

Hey, I found 3 scum.

mothrax, Friend & Furcolow.


Also, if I don't force it, he's gonna live untill endgame, buecause he seems to be unlynchable.

[Furcolow]

Wraith, excellent choices. I agree with 3 out of 4. I feel like Fate's is null. That's pure quibble, though!
Good post, bro.

[zwetschenwasser]

ani's suspicion < founded
furcolow and beefster's assumptions about setup < wise <> outguessing mod is bad
(suspicion <> smoking) < conclusive or valuable <> lack of knowledge of game mechanics
Vi games < 100% down to earth setups

ergo,

we can't believe smoking is bad based only on our normal connotations with the word

[Friend]

OH YEAH ANI CAUSE EVERYONE WHO VOTES YOU IS SCUM RITE

Wraith, why do you feel Beefster is town?