Newbie 1001 - Game Over

[Banana Stickers]

/confirm here as well.

[Banana Stickers]

@Non SE or IC's: Something I'd like to know from each of the "newbies", except substrike of course (I was in the last game with him): Is this your first mafia game on mafiascum, or your second, third, fourth, etc.?

This is my second. I've played mafia live before and loved it. On my first game I didn't get out of day 1, though, because I had to replace in since I went to Scotland for a week. I underestimated how long mafia games take here...I entered the queue mid-July, left mid-August, and day 1 was still going on! It was a bummer, too, because I was a cop, and I didn't get to use my coply powers

The first sentence: If you tell people what you are doing, they won't have the same reactions as if you don't tell them what you are doing. Second sentence: This is a bit fabricated, as you haven't made any attempt at psychoanalysing anyone's arguments. The last two sentences make it seem like you are anxious about what people are going to think about your vote. You are really interested in how people will react to your playstyle. That is a scum mentality, if you ask me.

Agree with the first sentence, but I don't think that's necessarily a scum tell, just a different way to play. Also agree with the second sentence bit...MiTC, why would you jump to the conclusion that we don't want you psychoanalyzing anyone when it was simply stated that you could do this

better

via not revealing your intentions? It seems, from the thread, you took Ragna's sentence and turned it hostile when there were no real hostile intentions that I could see.

I don't, however, agree with this last bit, Memnon. I played cop my last, and only game here and I was worried / interested in how people would react to my playstyle. I knew I was town, an important townie, and wanted to stay alive to help the town win. This means presenting a good playstyle to people...because "acting scummy" is different to all of us, for the most part.

RVS is my least favorite part of the game but I'm glad to see we're moving along.

[Banana Stickers]

ManinTrenchcoat seems really scummy to me and right now it goes beyond what I'd call "newbie mistakes". He's avoiding questions, as Equinox pointed out. He's also trying really, really hard to push any sentiment of being a "scum" away from him, and most of it seems directed at Ragna right now.

Equinox has tunnel vision on a noobie early, and even after Ragna pointed out that a lot of mistakes that Man has made can be attributed to noob, Equinox still seems pretty excited about pushing him. I can see how this is a town thing, but I could also see this as Equinox trying to push a mislynch on day one as scum.

Is it just me, or are these two quotes directly opposite of each other? Substrike, you seem to be pointing the finger at MiTC in your first bit, but then accusing Equinox of doing the same thing in the second bit. This was in the same post, by the by, so I'm pretty confused about this.

KoreanWonderBoy seems less scummy to me now, so while I'm on that I'll UNVOTE: KoreanWonderBoy

This was your 6th post, only one of which had ANY sort of (small) amount of content in it, and not once did you ever indicate that you thought that KWB was scummy. Looks like your vote on him was in the RVS. So if you thought this - you never indicated it in game, which throws up a red flag to me. Also, why did you ever think he was scummy? He's playing his first game and it's pretty obvious he doesn't have much experience with the actual game with his questions...unless it's a brilliant "I'm a newbie! >.> <.<" scum strategy.

Speaking of KoreanWonderBoy, his posts have been full of questions, which is fine, but no substance. KWB, I'd like to hear what you're thinking.

While I'm asking for someone else's opinion, I should probably give my own...

Still not voting here, for reason. Not because I want to no lynch, KWB, I can't really think of a reason why that would be beneficial to town, especially on day 1. It's because by the time I came in to do a read through, we really were past the random voting bit, and I just don't see anyone strong enough to plop my vote on yet. MiTC has some pretty terrible reasonings (assuming everyone is lying, turning what I see as simple questions as hostile intent) but I don't see enough to accuse him as scum yet.

I agree with Equinox's posts about MiTC, but I feel like he's sort of making a mountain out of a molehill. Still, not getting a scum vibe from this either, because stimulating discussion is always good, and he's not going balls-out for a lynch.

[Banana Stickers]

(Apologies if this posts twice...)

Like I said, I'm sort of confused as to what all of you are deducting. I'm sort of waiting for something really important, or something that I can REALLY understand. Something I can relate to. Sort of like you, I'm not quite sure what to do yet. No-one seems quite suspicious. So I unvote.

Mafia definitely takes time to play. It doesn't suffice to have a light read through...posts have to be thoroughly analyzed. Try reading a few players in iso, seeing if they make any posts that disagree with each other, or something you find fishy.

Also, I refute your claim of "only post with content on it".

I meant that your post unvoting KWB was your first real one with substance, not your only one with substance - the posts after that have been fine. Anyway, your answers have satisfied me well enough.

Well, Ragnarokio attacks very strongly which makes it seem as if she is trying to make others suspicious instead.

skn, can you give an example of Ragna "attacking very strongly"? Because, honestly...I ain't seen it. At all. One more thing:

Bananastickers and substrike have been quiet but maybe it's because they are mafia, or they just haven't been able to post.

I maintain that myself & Substrike have more posts / content than

you

, so this accusation is sort of fishy to me, just like the one above. Seems like you haven't posted for awhile and now you're flailing out with some weirdo reasoning / accusations. Not voting yet since I haven't seen enough of you and you're a newbie to boot, but IGMEOY...

[Banana Stickers]

Wooah. Okay first of all there's no reason that you should be calling my reasoning weird because this is my first game and you should be respecting what I do or say.

First off, dude - and I know you're a female, I am too - let me just say the following, completely out of the game...

So, you know video games, like Halo, or Mortal Kombat - pick yer generation - they're fighting games, right. You fight against other players. And when you kill the other players, it's nothing personal. It's not that you don't respect them. It's just...that's the game.

Similarly, mafia is a fighting game, well, kind of, played with words instead of guns. Anything I say in game has nothing to do with you

personally,

it is within context of the game. As a person, I respect you. As a potential mafia member trying to kill me, well, that's another story, and that's the

game.

There's no reason you should be attacking me like that.

Back to the game! That being said, your immediate defensiveness strikes me as

really

weird along with everything I'd pointed out before.

I've read everyone's post like twice, and overall, what Ragna has said seem like attacks at others while defending herself.

Yeah, but I asked you to give me a specific example of attacking strongly and you came up with nada.

So...flimsy reasoning, incredibly defensive, not able to provide specific examples...here's my problem...are you just a really new newbie, or are you

scum?

Would like to hear what others think.

[Banana Stickers]

Now that I think about it, I'm not really sure. I mean this is only Banana's second ish game and I feel like only SE's or IC'S would "appreciate" continuation, at least more so than newbies. After thinking about it, it doesn't really make much sense for her to say something like that unless she is scum.

I will say that I do have extensive off-site, in person mafia experience, including modding. I used to play this game at band camp all the time. I will also say this: that "I'm happy the game is moving along" bit was just an afterthought and I would have said that whether I was town or mafia.

I've just read you in iso, skn. Here's a summation of your activity so far in terms of voting, suspicions, etc:

Post 53: random vote on MiTC
Post 57: unvoting MiTC since Ragna pointed out MiTC already had 2 votes on him and it was early in the game. Vote for Banana Stickers, no reason given.
Post 116: Suspicion on MiTC based on "gut feeling"
Post 118: Suspicion on Ragna due to "attacking strongly" (no examples given when I asked for this). Not sure about Banana Stickers & Substrike. Puts her 2 main suspects as Ragna & MiTC.
Post 119: Also suspects Equinox based on "his defending himself".
Post 130: Reaffirms suspicion on Ragna.
Post 134: Unvotes Banana Stickers. Townie call on me, Equinox, Memnon, Ragna, Substrike. Suspicious of MiTC & KWB. Minor suspicion on Pizza.
Post 169: Suspicion on me. Thinking about voting for MiTC.

So, we've had scum calls on MiTC, Ragna, myself, Equinox, KWB, and minorly on Pizza as well.

I know you're a newbie, and that's why it's taken so long for me to vote for you. I've been trying to discern the newbie play from the scum play...not always easy. But looking at your voting patterns, the way you're flitting from person to person but staying on the popular bandwagon (MiTC)...not putting any pressure on those you suspect, just letting it drop...the defensiveness when you get called out...not able to provide examples. It's enough for me.

vote: skn27

[Banana Stickers]

And right now, I'm in a huge hate spiral, so I'm not going to post any more than this, most likely for a while.

What IS a "huge hate spiral", anyway? Heh.

[Banana Stickers]

skn27 hasn't flaked. Both are willing to be questioned.

I disagree with this. Do you really not see flakiness in skn's play? Or is just newbieness that you see?

@Everyone: Who are your two top suspects right now? Why?

Mine are skn, obviously, and...

Really, I don't have a strong second suspect.

Just read everyone in quick iso looking for unwillingness to take a stand, flakiness in voting, lots of posts with little content. I can't find anything glaring in Equi, Pizza, Memnon, Ragna, or Substrike. KWB is obviously very new. I'll reserve judgment on MiTC until we can get the replacement in.

By the way, Memnon, I know exactly what you mean about the gut feeling on Substrike. I've had that the whole game. But I keep reading him in iso and can't find anything substantial to back up that gut feeling, which is why I've never brought it up, as gut feelings don't help us catch scum.

By the way, Pizza, with your Substrike questioning:

He accused Kwonderboy of being scummy. Then backs off for some reason on post 5.

I actually already noted, and questioned Substrike about this. Here's how it went:

KoreanWonderBoy seems less scummy to me now, so while I'm on that I'll UNVOTE: KoreanWonderBoy

This was your 6th post, only one of which had ANY sort of (small) amount of content in it, and not once did you ever indicate that you thought that KWB was scummy. Looks like your vote on him was in the RVS. So if you thought this - you never indicated it in game, which throws up a red flag to me. Also, why did you ever think he was scummy?

In terms of the KWB vote it was a mostly-RVS vote that initially (in my eyes) implied that I found his behavior somewhat scummy. I'm aware he's a noob (I am the one that started the MiTC noob argument). I renounced that vote because I now feel that other people are more scummy. Note that I didn't say I didn't find him scummy, I said I found him less scummy. There's a difference. I feel he's scummy for the reasons you pointed out, he's posted nothing but questions and votes. To me that is scummy, just not as scummy as what Equinox or MiTC have been doing.

Although, reading back over that...

Substrike, you said you found KWB less scummy. But that's not true, is it? Like Pizza said, there wasn't a lot of content posted by KWB to really make you change your vote on him. Sounds like you found KWB just as scummy as before, you just found Equinox & MiTC

more

scummy than KWB. I could just be picking at semantics here.

[Banana Stickers]

Hey Equinox, you didn't answer my question.

I disagree with this. Do you really not see flakiness in skn's play? Or is just newbieness that you see?

Still here as well, just not much new material popping up.

[Banana Stickers]

I'm having some difficulty determining whether they are truly having trouble because we don't have any obvious scum tells in play, or because they (and by 'they' I mean either or both) can't get an accusation on someone they know is town to stick.

I certainly understand this. It's why I didn't vote skn for so long - she's new, there wasn't a lot of STRONG scum tells in play. But my post of her in iso was enough to convince me. Lots of waffling, as you say, votes without reasons (or poor ones), backpedals, etc.

Is shotty still around? I'm looking for more details on this:

as soon as XS attacked KWB just a bit you could tell he got a bit tense, then whenever XS voted him and attacked KWB a little bit again he countered with a OMGUS and a weak chainsaw deffense

I just read skn in iso and didn't see this.

In short, what i see is this: Starts a minor case on Trenchcoat, barely maintains it until he disappears. Slaps the name substrike into half his later posts and complains about not having anything to do because Trenchcoat left. He's been doing virtually nothing the entire game, including at the start. Hes been more verbally active recently than at the start, actually, because hes trying to rekindle discussion, rather than scumhunt or attack people.

Now this is interesting. Just re-read Memnon looking for this. Honestly, I think Memnon did more that "barely maintaining" the case on MiTC, but he certainly wasn't going hot and heavy on it. And again, I think "virtually nothing" is also a stretch, there's been some decent content from him, but you're right - the vast majority of his posts are sort of active lurky type posts. Unfortunately it looks like Memnon will be V/LA for the next 2 days or so so he can't respond. I'm maintaining my vote on skn and there it will stay unless there comes a VERY strong case against someone else, skn redeems herself, or if there's a last minute claim hulabaloo of some sort, but I would like to see what Memnon says to this.

[Banana Stickers]

Whoa, whoa. Equinox, why are you voting Memnon?

You

were

voting Memnon earlier in the game, then switched to drmyshotty as "part pressure, part policy". Fine. Then, three posts down, you state your top suspects are KWB, skn27, and drmyshotty.

You then re-vote Memnon 4 posts later with absolutely no reason given. Your four posts in between your top suspects given were
1) apology for a V/LA;
2) letting drmyshotty know why he's being replaced;
3) questioning KWB;
4) more questioning KWB, and explaning a few things. And then a Memnon vote. Care to explain why?

Due to Memnon's response and once again going over him in iso, I am reading town and won't be jumping on his wagon.

Also interesting read on boberz...he's voted Memnon as well, with his only reasoning being his 6th post:

Memmon in post #188 "There goes my top suspect" bad bad bad. You should not be looking at your suspect dissapearing as a bad thing it is as if you were targetting a lynch and your lynch has gone and now you might just find the next player is good (he wasnt).

I don't know. I feel that when you get a scum read on a person and that person abruptly replaces out of the game and someone else new comes in, it's VERY disrupting. You're arguing scum based on that person's actions and suddenly that person isn't there anymore to react any more, or for you to question, or to see how they vote. And yes...new person has the same role. But I think you still need to reevaluate that new person. If skn suddenly replaced out of the game I'd be very disappointed as well. I'd probably withdraw my vote but watch the new person like a hawk for awhile.

Also;

A significant amount of his posts are worthless pieces of drivel that are succeeding bore town towards a loss.

boberz, as it stands right now I can say the same for you. 10 posts, only one with any REAL content. I know it hasn't been that long in the game for you, but glass houses and all that.

[Banana Stickers]

Sorry. I'm here. I keep forgetting that 2 days gone calls for a V/LA announcement. Well, in case I forget, I'll be gone all this upcoming weekend! Shouldn't be a problem as it looks to be nighttime since our deadline is Friday (not sure how long nights last). Anyway, on to the content.

boberz...wow.

But the lurking and bandwagoning accusations leveleed at me are utter crap

Oh noes! I went back and specifically looked for these "lurking and bandwagoning accusations". There were only three posts between your V/LA announcement and this proclamation. They are;

1) Memon responding to your accusations. He does not counter-accuse.
2) Me accusing you of posting only one real content post while accusing Memnon of doing the same thing. Go ahead, read yourself in iso. It is the absolute truth that you had ONE real post with content at the time. It wasn't even a strong accusation, more of a side note.
3) Pizzaplate's post. Now, this is an attack, and a vote on you.

Methinks you protest too much. You're seeing a little suspicion coming your way and flying off the handle.

Okay most importantly on the subject of Memnon's tops supect flaking and his consequential grumblings and refusual to playings. It is bad because Memnon on atleast one occasion suggested he wanted to wait for the replacement and the inference was that he lacked either the will or the ability to scumhunt further.

I don't see this as a terrible thing and DEFINITELY not a scum tell. I'd like all parties to be present so I can view their reactions and question them. When one person is missing it leaves a big gap. Now, I'm not suggestions that the game is completely put on pause when someone replaces in, but the replacement generally happens quickly and I personally do post less during these transition times to wait for new players. NOT a scum tell. Maybe poor / newbie town play...but not a scum tell.

I'm not going to get into your bandwagoning nitpicking because...well, I understand bandwagoning but it's still a very nebulous concept to me. Not enough for me to make a rational argument for / against or dissect your arguments yet.

Unless you really think a newb becomming inactive is really a scumtell.

Not in and by itself, becoming inactive is not a scum tell. But combined with other scum tells, I think this can be one. At least a supporting argument. Don't you? We hear all the time about active lurking and how it helps scum, but in this case it's not a scum tell?

boberz...IGMEOY.

Now, on to KWB:

I figured that if the heat's off me, I could just sort of concentrate on other things in life for a bit.

Whoop! Whoop! Red flag here!

This says to me, "I am not concerned about finding scum; I'm concerned about appearing scummy. My main goal is to stay alive."

And THAT is scummy.

See, KWB and skn have done very similar things throughout the thread. Everything that I'm suspicious of skn for (iso post 5), KWB has done too. But skn gave me more of a "scum" vibe while KWB gave me more of a "newbie" vibe. That all changed with the above comment.

I find it hard to articulate any better than the folks that already are voting KWB on why he's suspicious. But, a few new things to add:

By your post 8, you analyze thoroughly some miniscule data, which seems to me as what a townie would do: why would scum analyze things that normal people might and could leave out?

Why would they do that? To start suspicion on a townie. Where there is no suspicious activity, something must be created by scum so they themselves don't get lynched.

KWB posted on what he thinks about everyone...which is fine. Again, more waffling on various town vs his previous opinions with not much reasoning for the changes...one of the reasons I would be voting him if he wasn't already L-1. But has not responded to the accusations leveled against him in any sort of satisfactory manner (buddying up; waffling on votes & reasoning; actively lurking).

Unfortunately he's gone until Thursday and that doesn't leave us much time between then & the deadline.

Suspicion is still on skn, but I'm pleased that she is finally grasping ahold of someone and making a case on them instead of vomiting out random opinions without further questioning of the player (see: KWB) and hoping something sticks.

Bottom line is, I'm willing to hammer KWB but I'd like to see him back first. Is it time to request him to claim when he returns?