Cereal Killers - Mini 1027 (Game Over)

[jenniwren]

/confirm

[jenniwren]

Gentlemen, I think everyone is missing the underlying point of Kirby's (Toucan Sam) "daykill"...it's

so

obvious that the imperialist British bird just wanted to take a pot shot at the subjugated Irish leprechaun, amirite? xo, Sugarbear

Seriously, though. It's still early in the game and discussion is really just starting now (thanks for that, Kirby).

That being said...
I think Kirby is joking, much like Robo was joking.

Xvart's rationale for why he wouldn't vote Kirby if Charter DID die is sound if not a little reductive. However, I think his declaration that he would be voting Kirby if Charter didn't die is a just a knee-jerk overreaction. Kirby could have been joking, but if he weren't, there are still multiple reasons the kill might have failed, and I agree that it's probably not a good idea at this time to privilege one of those potential reasons over another as Xvart did; nevertheless, despite his earnestness in this discussion, he backed off a bit after the flavor scene was added. That reinforces the idea that his initial reaction to the action in question was more knee-jerk than scumtell. Charter did something similar--calling for a lynch--in reaction to Robo's self-vote (post #38), and that action has not garnered quite so much discussion as Xvart's threat to vote.

[jenniwren]

Charter: what was it in SSBF's and Sawyer's last posts that makes you feel better about them? You don't give any indication of feeling better about Sawyer anywhere except your next to last statement, and I'm curious about the turnaround.

[jenniwren]

Wow, Charter...I ask you one question and suddenly I'm on your radar?

Jenniwren is shaping up nicely for the slot of lurkerscum

, we'll have to see how that pans out as time goes by.

Actually

,

now that I actually read

her post 53, I believe we've got another scum hooked.

Does that underlined part mean that I get to be the one you pretend to scumhunt? Or does it just mean you decided I was scum before you even read what I wrote, and then you "justified" calling me scum by pointing back to my post? Is this how you're telling scumbuddies to start building a case on me? Do you have pre-labeled slots to fill? Is "slot" a slip?

By the way, I'm hardly lurking. This is my third post, and I'm only just now ready to comment on anything; and I've had something to say every time I have checked this thread today. (I'm sorry if I can't post as manically as you do, but some of us do have other things to do in life, and when I post, I like to actually have something meaningful to say.) Before I discuss the results of my scumhunting, though, I would like to point out that you never really explain what you think is scummy about my post. Care to share? (I offer my theory about it a little further down in this post, but I would just LOVE to hear what drivel you come up with.)

I will also be answering your question as to whom I would vote for right now at the end of the post, and the question about what I think about XScorp right now.

Thoughts thus far:

XScorp brought trouble on his own head by rolefishing/etc., as did Xvart by having an overreactive hissy fit, and early on, Robo by self-voting. If they aren't scum, then they have all put big fat targets on their heads with sloppy, sloppy,

sloppy

play, which makes it cake for the scum to mark them as easy mislynches. (It seems you've cleared Robo for the VI role, though, since you're tagging XScorp and building a case that includes his refusal to unvote Robo.)

Anyway, since you're so fond of tossing out lists of names and trying to make cases on them, then let's turn it around and see how the shoe fits on your tiny little leprechaun feet. Call it OMGUS if you like, "but I have to start somewhere. Am I expecting everyone else to think the same as me?" (Quoting Charter, btw) And yes, once I point out their super-scumminess, yes, I expect them to agree with me.

Most Likely Scum Team Day One:

Charter, Spyre, and Kirby:

You're the scumteam and you set up the fake daykill. Spyre comes in and says "Welp, Charter is town," implying you're bulletproof, when there are several other reasons that could account for your survival. Kirby shoulders a few questions about his move, but no one really believes he's scum, so we listen to you rattle on and on about who you think is scum and submit to answering your neverending questions about our top suspects.

As for you, Charter:

I've already identified three town.

Does this mean you know which three people you're going to make sure are proven town for easier NKs? Or are you speculating on masons?

The rest of you are making this very difficult to figure out who his buddies are (except Sawyer, who is making it very easy to see he is scum).

Having trouble finding believable patsies, are we?

Spyrex and Robo, who do you think are XScorpion's buddies?

Asking Spyre to confirm the best choices of patsies? (I have more to say about his response later.) Including Robo because he has a known beef with XScorp and because he ISN'T scum so that at no time are the three of you connected together in this exact kind of post so that if we DO manage to out you that we might slip up and miss your third?

After SSBF and Sawyer's latest posts, I'm feeling better about them. XScorpion, on the other hand, is digging his grave with a bulldozer

Moving on and dropping SSBF and Sawyer from your potential mislynch list? Or feeling that they are reading more as obv-town for your OTHER list, you know, the NK one?
Your answer to that:

I got the sense that they were interested in answering my questions in a direct manor. I put myself in their shoes and answered the question, and I came up with something similar to what they said.

is still fishy because the initial comment came at the end of a long post of quoted quotes and was a bit non sequitor, and I don't buy the explanation.

Spyre

pops in and actively lurks every now and then. Reading Spyre in ISO is like eating cotton candy. All sugar, and no smack (or maybe too MUCH smack); his posts add up to a whole lot of NOTHING meaningful in the way of scumhunting.

Seriously:

Welp, Charter is town. Lol, reactions is still stupid though. ON THE PLUS SIDE: Given a smalltown setup and there's really actual role to scum speculation going on? Seriously? However:

Vote: Zang

One does not get to swim in the sewage that is that discussion, give a response, and then opt to not vote. No sir

"Confirming" that Charter is Town?

Hahahahahahahahaha

Unvote, Vote: XScorpion

God I love it when its easy.

Hmmm...easy to frame someone?

Keep on keepin on little scorpion. Lol, rvs isn't a great move in the best of situations. Lol, rvs at charter and this slap and tickle fight is too good to be true.

More of the easy-frame stuff?

One actually sort of useful post about white noise, but not tooooo useful.

Spyrex and Robo, who do you think are XScorpion's buddies?

At this moment its not as clean as he is. However, if I'm right I'd eat a hat if you or Robo were scum with him. Kirby could be with that lowball "did the mod SAY you were a vig business" but doubtful. If I had to put the cash down I'd say Zang and one of the voiceless (Jenni, Sawyer). MAAaayabe xvart with a power chainsaw not realizing.

I am pretty sure this can be interpreted as "Scorp is the obvious lynch; I'm clearing three of you, and I kind of have to say Zang since I kind of voted for him already; Jenni/Sawyer haven't talked much lately, and maybe we can get away with saying she and XVart are his scumbuddies b/c if we can make her post #53 seem like she is tossing a chainsaw to XVart."

Kirby

, man, I want to love you so much because your avatar rocks so freaking hard, and you got my joke, but I am going to call you on the carpet with these guys, and your ISO is just as fishy.

Your vote for SSBF: Pointing out your first choice for mason and/or proven town OR for framing for a mislynch? What message was Charter sending when he said he "feels better" about him?

Your next two posts are sticky sweet fluff.

You then come in and post this right after Spyre:

I support lynches of either player whose name starts with X. They've both been really scummy on their own (no use simply parroting everything), and

I could DEFINITELY see them as buddies

(but let's not get ahead of ourselves).

As for which is scummier, they're about equal to me tbh. But since Scorp has more votes: Unvote SSBF, Vote: Xscorpion L-2

Going along with the choice of Xvart as XScorp's first buddy but cautioning your friends to be careful not to plan too far ahead?


If I am wrong, prove it.

Vote: Charter

For fluffy posts, bullying tactics, and being obv-scum. Go back and reread the thread and see his leading questions. See yourselves answer them and spoonfeed him what he needs to set everyone up. None of them are actively scumhunting, and what Charter is passing off as such is asking a lot of leading questions, making a lot of unsupported claims, fluff, and messages to other players. He and his little gang are attempting to lead us around by the nose, and we need to stop it, now.



xo, Sugarbear.

[jenniwren]

I have a lot of problems with jenniwren's big post.

Your cases on charter, SpyreX, and Kirbyoshi are really, really bad. I see a lot of twisting words in your attack against them, especially the latter two. It's also full of misreps, which makes your case on them badly developed and makes you look scummier.

I'm asking questions about what they have said and offering one possible analysis. I haven't seen a lot of content posts from any of them yet; I've seen a lot of questions about who they think is a scum team and why; speculation about who should fit into particular slots, etc.

And yet you vote for none of {XScorpion, xvart, Robocopter87}. You claim that they have very sloppy play, yet you call them "easy" mislynches. XScorpion has been on the site for over a year, so he can't be called an easy mislynch because he should be experienced at Mafia by now. xvart can be one hell of a good player on the site as well and difficult to catch as scum (IMO). And I have had previous experience with Robocopter87 and he doesn't play like a VI. None of them are particularly easy mislynches for the scums as far as I see.

I see a lot of one-liners with Robo and XScorp, and Robo was attacked early on for self-voting. I didn't see Robo's self-vote as anything but a joke, but people, including Charter, were talking about lynching him for it. The back-and-forth with XScorp about previous games also seems to have gotten a little tedious to sort through. Maybe it's not quite VI material, but I don't see that as being particularly useful to THIS game. Also, point me to ONE useful post that Robo has made. XScorp has gotten a lot of flack for things like rolefishing and refusing to unvote Robo--and by your explanation, he should know better than that by now, right? And I don't see Xvart as scummy, I see him as earnestly trying to scumhunt, and people have jumped on him because of his reaction to the non-daykill. I didn't vote for any of them because I don't think they are scum because of these things. Maybe I'm missing something, but while some things they do or have done may be scummy, I don't see them as being scum.

Does this mean you know which three people you're going to make sure are proven town for easier NKs? Or are you speculating on

masons?

Slip?
Do you have any knowledge of a mason group? Because it looks like you do with this quote.

Are you rolefishing? Tsk. Tsk.
I was speculating about possible motive for the comment Charter made about having identified three townies. XVart called him on it, too, and he justified it saying he was looking for scum teams. I offered another possible explanation for his rather useless announcement that he has found three townies.

For fluffy posts,

bullying tactics

, and being obv-scum.

Bullying? How has charter gone as far as bullied anyone?If he was bullying, he would have been a lot more abusive. I don't see how charter was using bullying tactics at all.

Bullying doesn't have to be overtly abusive; it can be much more subtle than that...and it might be easier for women to pick up on because, after all, we all went through middle school and dealt with it. Bullying is just as much about hinting and suggesting and starting rumors as it is about beating someone up for their lunch money.

I wasn't even on his radar until I questioned him. He didn't bother to answer the question first, but instead declared his intent to go after me. He didn't vote for me, but he said

Jenniwren is shaping up nicely for the slot of lurkerscum, we'll have to see how that pans out as time goes by. Actually, now that I actually read her post 53, I believe we've got another scum hooked."

No explanation, nothing. That quote reads as though he is looking for a reason and a way to justify a future vote on me, and that he hadn't even actually read what I wrote before deciding this. Two "actuallys"? Really? Posts like these come across as confident and authoritative, but he explained nothing, not even what was so scummy about the post he said was scummy. He's linking my name with the word "scum," and at first it's just a hint or suggestion, but it will get into people's minds, and later, when he makes a case, it will be there, lurking, and he seems to have decided to make this connection when I asked him a simple question about why he had "cleared" you and Sawyer when earlier in that exact same post he seemed to be suspicious of Sawyer. Calling me likely scum for asking him a question? I call that bullying--maybe not strong arm bullying, but bullying just the same. He says my post is scummy? I want to know why, now. You can't just toss out accusations without supporting them. I also think it's kind of interesting that he felt the need to ISO me and find my post #53 when I asked him a question in post #77 that he should have been able to answer without hesitation. His post to me reads like he is threatening to frame me as scum (and it

would

be a frame) if I question him and his tactics--because he DOESN'T say I'm scum--he says I'm "shaping up nicely for the SLOT of lurkerscum," and that "we'll have to see how that pans out." As in, "we may not be able to make that stick."

Kirby, you're right about assumptions...and I might have missed the mark on you, as you have offered reasonable explanations for points I addressed, but I still think Charter and Spyre are likely scum, even without the "daykill plot," which is really the only thing that seems to connect you anyway and is really the only reason I pulled you into it. As for the others, I asked Charter a question about something he said, and the next thing he does is say that I'm lurker scum...and then he bothers to go back and read what I've written and says that's scummy, too. Then and only then, after he plants the suggestion that I am scummy in everyone's minds does he bother to answer my question, and then it's a "well I would probably do the same things they would in that situation" answer, which means we have to take his word for it that he is saying that from a town position, and quite frankly, he hasn't proven himself town to me, so that means nothing.

SSBF: Can you tell me why my suggesting a possible team and giving textual support for that is scummier than Charter throwing random names around and providing no support? Also, I only shared a possible interpretation of events. I asked questions about specific things they have said and shared with them my interpretation of how those things sounded to me. If I am wrong, they are welcome to prove it to me. Charter threw my name out there ONLY when I asked him a question, which he answered AFTER he suggested I could fill the lurkerscum spot, which he did BEFORE he even read the post he claimed was scummy but failed to elaborate on. He later asks Spyre a leading question about XScorp's potential buddies, and Spyre says "If I had to put the cash down I'd say Zang and one of the voiceless (Jenni, Sawyer). MAAaayabe xvart with a power chainsaw not realizing." WTF does that even mean? Sawyer posted quite a bit yesterday, and I posted every time I was able to do so; maybe I didn't post a million random comments and throw out accusations all day, but it doesn't make me voiceless or a lurker. The last sentence in that doesn't even make sense: "maybe Xvart with a power chainsaw not realizing?" You DO understand how that can be taken? If it's not about me and my post, it certainly looks like they are setting Xvart up for something.

And why does everyone seem to acknowledge Charter as being credible for some reason? Because he asks a lot of questions and throws around names? I see that as scummy because it looks like he is gauging people's reactions and looking for how he can exploit them later. If it's not to early for Charter to hunt for teams, it's not to early to look at what he's saying and look closely at him, too.

[jenniwren]

I would like to point out that you never really explain what you think is scummy about my post. Care to share?

I thought this comment of you was extremely scummy.

Charter did something similar--calling for a lynch--in reaction to Robo's self-vote (post #38), and that action has not garnered quite so much discussion as Xvart's threat to vote.

Where

you are trying to tell someone

(I'm not sure who, but it doesn't matter, it kind of sounds like everyone)

that I did something scummy too, but no one is paying much attention to it

. First off, I don't think the situations are similar at all, and second, the way you try and

soil my good name all slyly like that, quite scummy

.

I like that you act like you thought of that argument all by yourself and didn't get it from my post about you. And the point of the scumhunting game is to tell people we think someone is doing something scummy, so calling me scummy for actually pointing out a comment you yourself admit is scummy won't work.

I called

you

scummy because you actually

did

something scummy, not because you called me scummy.

Your calling me scummy was not because I did something scummy, however, but because I questioned you, and when you read the other post, you saw I had pointed out you did something scummy.

Rather than answer my question and be done with it, you threw my name in the scumpot so you could begin to make sure no one would listen to me when I did come forth with allegations against you.

By the way, why should we assume you're NOT scum in this game? What's so "good" about your name? Why should we take your word for it? I also like how you actually say "you tell everyone that I did something scummy too, but no one is paying much attention to it." You don't say "that you THINK I did something scummy," or in anyway imply that you DIDN'T do something scummy, and then you add "but no one is paying attention" which infers you are quite confident you can get away with whatever you want to get away with here.

The rest of Jenniwren's "case" on me is just little potshots that don't show why I am scum at all (bonus points if you can guess why). Her case on Spyrex is about 10 times worse. The case on Kirby is practically nonexistent.

I've already backed off on Kirby; read the last post I wrote. He's back in the 50-50 pool with everyone else. You, however, do not provide an adequate defense of yourself here; all you have done is twist the argument I used on you and use the same one on me.

And potshots? I am calling you out for posting leading questions, fluffy answers to other people's questions, and not making real cases on anyone. If you are innocent, then PROVE it. Dissect my argument, show me where I'm wrong, and do something besides twisting words and pointing fingers.

[jenniwren]

I didn't read the last wallotext there.

Saying you didn't read it implies that you aren't interested in true scumhunting. Of course, that's already apparent, but thanks for putting it in writing.

[jenniwren]

I'm actually more sure of Jenniwren at this point, but I really can't imagine XScorpion and Jenniwren not being scum together.

Do you have any evidence supporting that those two have links to each other?

Other than them both independently being extremely scummy, there is their near total ignoring (to the point where it's suspicious how neither one of them wants to mention the other) of each other and Jenniwren's giant chainsaw defense of XScorpion.

I haven't talked much about anyone except for you. Name-dropping doesn't make you town no matter how much you insinuate that it does. And I did mention XScorp, but since you didn't read what I wrote then I don't suppose you saw that.

As for me speculating about a team...I started that little exercise to flip everything back on Charter. I reeeeallly like the people who are saying that my doing that is scummy, but Charter is getting a free pass on it. (I also love that no one is commenting on the fact that a few posts back Charter basically admitted to doing something scummy and that even I though pointed it out, no one was paying attention. By the way, that's why he has decided to frame me as scum.) I may have missed the mark with Kirby, and there may be a sliver of a chance I missed it with Spyre, but I'm pretty darn sure I've got Charter dead to rights.

@ Charter: Thinking that XScorp is not scum and thinking that you are scum isn't handing him a chainsaw. It's using my ability to read what you do say and what you don't say and to interpret that. I will not be bullied into backing off you by threats of being lynched.

Now, once again, I am telling you that if I am wrong, prove it. Dissect my case, show me where I'm wrong. Point me to concrete examples of your scumhunting.

Give me a solid case on Scorpion. Walk me through it point by point. Don't just start screaming how he is scum and expect me to hop on your wagon because I have NO reason to believe you. You have to show me specific evidence that proves your case because right now, even though his rolefishing and his crap with Robo is bad play, I am not convinced. I see that he is pretty much posting only fluff, like you, but the difference is he's not seriously trying to get anyone lynched.

Maybe I'm completely wrong and maybe he is scum, but I think there is more evidence against YOU right now. You will not and/or cannot back up your accusations with solid evidence. Instead you rely on a flimsy list of tells from the wiki and hope people believe you long enough to mislynch someone. You're making mountains out of molehills, and you're STILL not saying anything of substance.

One more thing:

If I'm perfectly honest, I wish this day was over right now with a XScorpion lynch, because this massive swamp him and Robo are making is giving me a headache. (and when he flips scum we can lynch Jenniwren).

If

you're honest? Are you not always honest? And why the rush? Scum benefit when hasty decisions are made. Town benefit when informed decisions are made, not when people get fired up over one or two mistakes and go rushing up the hill with their tar and feathers.

I found it odd that you would specifically bring up masons instead of just saying there was a three-person town group, which gave me the feeling that you had some sort of knowledge of a mason group. If that was the case, you would be setting yourself at a risk of being NK'd and no town player wants a power role to be killed off.

Better rolefishing, but still rolefishing. Think about what you would say if someone said this to you no mater what your town-aligned role might be (anything from a PR to a VT). There is no way to respond to that. Let's just leave it at this: Lynching me won't help town win-con, and scum already know that. The only thing my death would achieve would be to help town eliminate a possible scum suspect, though at the same time it will reduce the number of town-aligned players. That's why I don't get why you're not paying attention to what Charter is doing.

@XScorp
How about this: Charter pushes my lynch and I flip town. Who's the scum now? We can play this game all day. I'd rather not. I'm voting Charter because I see his actions as scummy. He has yet to defend himself and instead keeps attacking me. (And in case anyone is wondering if I am defending myself, you should actually read my posts.) I have asked him repeatedly to prove to me I have the wrong person, and he hasn't offered me anything.

@Spyre: WTF does that even mean? You list some quotes and say Charter isn't bulletproof and that I should be lynched. Nice. And you aren't scum why? And I am

why

?

Seriously...can anyone look at Spyre's post and say that is helpful in ANY possible way?

[jenniwren]

Spyrex is so obviously town, every time you try and call him scum I just get 100% more sure you are scum.

The giant backpedal with your Spyrex and Kirby (and a little bit of Charter) scum reads is pretty scummy.

I'm debating trying to lynch Jenniwren over XScorpion. Spyrex and Hiphop, what do you think about a Jenniwren lynch?

How is Spyre obviously town? Do you have some some knowledge the rest of us don't? I mean, I know that SCUM know who is town and who isn't, so are you admitting that you're scum?

You still aren't giving me any reasons that you are innocent. And admitting that I may have made a bad call about someone isn't scummy, it's taking responsibility for making a bad call. And everyone else is still swimming in the 50-50 pool for me, as I haven't gathered enough information to completely clear or convict anyone... except you. I'm pretty darn sure you're scum.

[jenniwren]

XScorpion: First, off the record/out of game/whatever passes for being unofficial communication

...you brought up what I said about you in earlier posts, and the way you addressed it with Robo made me feel as though you were personally offended. I felt bad about the way I said what I did when I reread that post later, and SSBF already sort of called me out about it and defended you in post #127, but I didn't know how to address it in game since no one seems to be able to say anything and be taken at face value; however, since you brought it up, I am going to address it. Anyway, I’m sorry if I offended you personally with any thoughtless comments I have made. It's not an excuse, but I was caught up in the moment in which I was writing and was maybe a little—or a lot—meaner than I should have been. That’s not in keeping with the spirit of the game, and I apologize to you and anyone else who may have been personally offended by anything I have said; that was not my intention at all.

On the record/back in game/etc:

I do feel that the underlying issues of what I posted about you and Robo have some validity, and that bringing them up and pointing them out is justified. This time, however, I will attempt to address them with maybe a little more explanation and a little less venom.

The crux of what was meant in the earlier post is basically this:
I am not convinced you are scum, but I do think you've definitely done some pretty anti-town things so far.

If you two aren’t scum and you don’t think that the little back and forth you have had going with Robo this entire time hasn’t marked you as a target for mislynch by scum then you might want to think again. If you don’t think doing something like rolefishing will set you up for trouble, then you also need to think again. I don’t want to read through all your personal history with Robo; you two should take that up elsewhere because it isn't useful to this game and the town win-con at all. You are both experienced players, so you should know better than to drag your dirty laundry through this game when it has nothing to do with this game.

That being said, I don't think that stuff necessarily makes you scum, and I think there are some others far scummier than you, which is why I am not voting for one of you.

Hiphop

I find jenni to be newb (if that offends you sorry) who is still learning how to play.

I can’t be offended by the truth. I'd rather not use that crutch, though. Also, don't discredit newbies too much. For all our faults, one thing we have going for us is fresh perspective.

[jenniwren]

Scum hate when townies identify each other, and you know what they do? They try to undermine it so that the idea doesn't catch on.

That's why you keep undermining people you know are town and who accuse or challenge you, right?

There's no need for all this explaining you keep clamoring for. You see how Five people are voting for XScorpion? You think I'm scum because I didn't concoct some elaborate case on him. The real explanation is there is no need to because the other townies see the same thing I do.

If you are town, then you care about scumhunting. If you think someone is scum, then you need to have a reason why. He's done some scummy things, but so have a lot of people. (Like you.) I want to know why he's the best candidate to lynch on day one. Because, for all you claim to see, you are claiming similar things about me--and since I know you are wrong about me, why should I believe anything you say about anyone else just because you "see" some nebulous thing? Also, you only have what, five votes on him? You say "the other townies" like only the people on your wagon are town. Really? Only five town? Also, the chances of everyone on that wagon being town are pretty slim to none. You're going to have to do better than insinuating that everyone who isn't on your wagon is scum and that everyone who is on your wagon is town. I for one am not afraid of that threat because I know you'll be proven wrong if you get me lynched, and then hopefully people who "see what you see" will start wondering what exactly it is that you are actually seeing before it's too late for the town. I made a bonehead mistake when I fired off a speculation about the possible identity of an entire scum team instead of just focusing on you, and if that results in my being lynched, at the very least I know my flip will turn the suspicion back where it needs to be.

I'm sure anyone who has played with Spyrex before sees he's town, whether or not they're as vocal about it as me, they are thinking it in their noggin.

If everyone always plays the same when they are town or another way when they are scum, I can't imagine that this game would hold anyone's interest for very long. I don't buy that meta is

always

going to yield a definitive read on someone. Maybe it does for some people, but if it's always true, then why would anyone want to play games with people they've played with already?

Also, right now my vote is on you, not Spyrex. I don't want to hear your defense of him, I want you to defend yourself, if you can.

Finally:

I don't think you're scum ONLY because you refuse to make a concrete case on someone. I think you are scum because you do things like call for an early Robo lynch, ask leading questions, contradict yourself, refuse to offer evidence that would convict your suspect or clear yourself, etc., etc. Finally, your tone comes across as evasive, aggressive, and defensive, and that just makes me believe you have something to hide. (You can go back and read my longer posts if you want more detailed explanations.)

[jenniwren]

There's a TL;DR at the bottom.

Like I said before, your "theory" only works until someone flips town.

If XScorp flips scum the following things are true (at about 80% - if he's a PR about 95%):
1.) Robo is town.
2.) Charter is town.
3.) Jenni is scum.

Making up numbers isn't scumhunting. It isn't evidence just because you've declared it is a fact. You have said those three statements before, but just because you say them doesn't make them true. I also really like the protective percentage qualifiers at the end of your first sentence here. When, for example, you succeed in herding the rest of the town into lynching me and I flip town, you've protected yourself by saying there's still a chance you're wrong.

By the way, why all the deflection on Charter's behalf?

Why can't he defend himself? Hiphop is offering to defend him, and you're defending him here, but he still won't defend himself. Making a case for why Charter's scum isn't tantamount to saying XScorpion isn't scum, it's sharing information with the rest of the town that may help us with our win-con if it turns out to be correct. Also, Charter tested a lot of different wagons before going with the XScorp one.

Also, the first two quotes you include merely appear to be one by Charter in which he lays out a two and a quarter line case case against XScorp, asks questions about Sawyer and SSBF, and gives a reason not to vote Robo and a second that says he thinks XScorp is scum because he's rolefishing. I'm assuming these are meant to prove that Charter is scumhunting; however, scum are supposed to appear to be scumhunting, so this isn't enough to exonerate your buddy, at least for me. If he's decided on Scorp as his best possible chance for a D1 lynch, then why wouldn't he say these things? I also know he "claims" to be scumhunting me, but I'm not scum, so I know how bogus his accusations are. You can huff and puff and blow as much as you want, but that won't change my alignment.

By the way...the final quote you quoted is wrongfully attributed to Robo rather than to Scorp in your post, but combined with your short analysis, it's the one quote that actually has weight in your argument that Scorp is scum. It makes a lot more sense than some of the other things you've said. It's a lot more useful, too.

However, I find Scorp's actions far less scummy than Charter's. Aside from his constant questions to players about other players, the thing that made me even begin to question what Charter was up to at all was the fact that I asked him a simple question, but before he even answered my question, he accused me of being lurker scum, then went back and actually read something that I'd written that attached him to doing something scummy, stated that he was certain I was scum, and then FINALLY answered my question. It's not that he "investigated" me as scum, it's that he decided I was going down as scum after he saw me questioning him and associating him with scum in two separate posts. He's also doing this to others who question or challenge him; it's like the instant someone associates him with scum, then he must associate them with being scum themselves. Isn't that OMGUS to the extreme? His attack on me came out of nowhere, and he offered no justification for why he thought I was scum, and the ONLY justification he's given for first calling me scum in that post since then is that I was associating him with something scummy (which he actually says is scummy, but it doesn't matter b/c no one is listening to me) to undermine his "good name," which is one of the things I have said about him--it's not even an original argument.


Quotes made by me that made Charter decide I was "lurkerscum" and then that I was "actual" scum...note the order of events, and that only he only answers my question AFTER he accuses me. Why not just answer the question and then ask me about what I thought about XScorp?

Gentlemen, I think everyone is missing the underlying point of Kirby's (Toucan Sam) "daykill"...it's

so

obvious that the imperialist British bird just wanted to take a pot shot at the subjugated Irish leprechaun, amirite? xo, Sugarbear
Seriously, though. It's still early in the game and discussion is really just starting now (thanks for that, Kirby).
That being said...
I think Kirby is joking, much like Robo was joking.
Xvart's rationale for why he wouldn't vote Kirby if Charter DID die is sound if not a little reductive. However, I think his declaration that he would be voting Kirby if Charter didn't die is a just a knee-jerk overreaction. Kirby could have been joking, but if he weren't, there are still multiple reasons the kill might have failed, and I agree that it's probably not a good idea at this time to privilege one of those potential reasons over another as Xvart did; nevertheless, despite his earnestness in this discussion, he backed off a bit after the flavor scene was added. That reinforces the idea that his initial reaction to the action in question was more knee-jerk than scumtell. Charter did something similar--calling for a lynch--in reaction to Robo's self-vote (post #38), and that action has not garnered quite so much discussion as Xvart's threat to vote.

Charter: what was it in SSBF's and Sawyer's last posts that makes you feel better about them? You don't give any indication of feeling better about Sawyer anywhere except your next to last statement, and I'm curious about the turnaround.

Jenniwren is shaping up nicely for the slot of lurkerscum, we'll have to see how that pans out as time goes by.

Actually,

now

that I

actually read

her post 53, I believe we've got another scum hooked.

Jenniwren, if you had to vote someone right now, who would you vote and why? What do you think of XScorpion?

I'm not sure who else is scum at the moment.

Charter: what was it in SSBF's and Sawyer's last posts that makes you feel better about them? You don't give any indication of feeling better about Sawyer anywhere except your next to last statement, and I'm curious about the turnaround.

I got the sense that they were interested in answering my questions in a direct manor. I put myself in their shoes and answered the question, and I came up with something similar to what they said.

TL;DR for the scum's sake:

1) Anyone can say anything but it doesn't mean it's true; just because they attach phony statistics to the claims also doesn't make it true.
2) Spyrex uses protective percentage qualifiers to give himself an out for when I or someone else flips town.
3) I ask why there is so much deflection going on on Charter's behalf (Hiphop offered to defend him, now Spyre is defending him).
4) Making a case for why Charter's scum isn't tantamount to saying XScorpion isn't scum, it's sharing information with the rest of the town that may help us with our win-con if it turns out to be correct.
5) Spyre actually makes a decent analysis of one post by XScorp and tries to prove Charter is town b/c he questioned Scorp; again, though, scum are supposed to try to appear town, so why wouldn't Charter fake scumhunting?
6) I think Charter is scummier than XScorp b/c he does things like go after people who dare to challenge him in any way, implies that only scum aren't on his wagon (in which case the town is sadly outnumbered), insinuates that people who disagree with his conclusions are scum in order to bully people into agreeing with him,

fishes for who is likely to receive the most votes rather than for who is likely to be scum

, and cannot or will not defend himself though others are willing to do it for him (Spyrex and Hiphop).

[jenniwren]

Hippy: Charter is town because of the response to lol, daykill - namely the irritation BUT THEN moving past it immediately to his real vote.

Link for where it is at. I read this last night, went to bed and thought about almost the whole 9 hours of work before it actually hit me. That is a very, very strong town-tell. I thought that jenni and xvart were make some good cases on charter in their last few posts, but it appears that charter may have a better chance of being town than i thought.

Xvart and jenni please comment on the spyrex quote above.

What I see in that quote is Spyrex saying that Charter is town because he was irritated by the "daykill" (exact words "You had better not be fucking serious.") and then voted for XScorp for being "obvscum" with no other explanation. I'm not sure how that is any different than any other RVS situation, and since people were still voting for each other based on meta and other things (mainly metas) up until that point, there was no reason for him not to to cast what looked like a random vote. Besides, casting an OMGUS vote on Kirby might have been used against him later--that extra bit of preemptive caution in not casting an OMGUS vote at that point when it would have been perfectly natural to do so considering the possibility Kirby WASN'T kidding seems more like a scumtell than a town tell. Can you tell me why you disagree and why it is such a definitive town tell?

I also can't buy it as a definitive town tell because in the very NEXT post, he says

Wait, I just noticed Robocopter voted for himself. We should lynch him to punish this behavior, OR MAYBE DAYKILL HIM HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA.

and then this is next:

SSBF, xvart, Xscorpion, hiphop, Kirbyoshi, and Sawyer. Why did none of you comment on how Robocopter voted himself?

Robocopter, why shouldn't we lynch you right now?

The fact that he talks about lynching Robo and didn't at least unvote XScorp is a bit scummy, actually. This is an example of what I mean when I say that Charter isn't fishing for scum, but for votes.

How is my saying 'lynch Jenniwren after XScorpion flips scum, and lynch XVart after Jenniwren flips scum' of any benefit to me as scum?

Where does this get me if I'm scum and XScorpion isn't scum?

Are you kidding?
You should have stopped before the last question there. The answer to the first question is that it doesn't benefit you at all if you manage to get your entire scum team lynched unless you are bussing them all as some sort of gambit.

However, if you're scum and he isn't, and you're managing to get town lynched instead of scum, then that's a pretty big benefit to you and your wincon, isn't it?

[jenniwren]

What? You can't go "OHH GOD WHY IS HE TOWN??" and then go "OMG DEFLECTION" when I answer good lord.

That' would be a fair enough point, IF I had asked everyone else to defend him, but I am asking HIM to defend himself. You shouldn't have to defend him. I answered Hiphop's question about the defense you made of Charter in response to something Hiphop said (post #237), and Hiphop specifically asked me to comment on what you said. That's the only time I mentioned you defending him at all. I haven't asked YOU why he's town, I've asked HIM. He's not answering, but you have, and Hiphop has offered to show me the error of my thinking.

I would tell you why some of your points on charter are bad, but i find it is charter's job to defend himself. Maybe it would open your eyes a little having someone other than charter comment on your case, but until you ask me then it will be be charter's job to defend himself.

Next:

That is what I've been going on about the whole time is just that. His reaction to everything has been scum through and through.

But you

haven't

been doing that. If you had been, I would have probably bought everything you said, hook, line, and sinker. Instead, you've said things like :

Welp, Charter is town. Lol, reactions is still stupid though.

Hahahahahahahahaha

Unvote, Vote: XScorpion

God I love it when its easy.

Keep on keepin on little scorpion. Lol, rvs isn't a great move in the best of situations. Lol, rvs at charter and this slap and tickle fight is too good to be true.

Spyrex and Robo, who do you think are XScorpion's buddies?

At this moment its not as clean as he is. However, if I'm right I'd eat a hat if you or Robo were scum with him. Kirby could be with that lowball "did the mod SAY you were a vig business" but doubtful. If I had to put the cash down I'd say Zang and one of the voiceless (Jenni, Sawyer). MAAaayabe xvart with a power chainsaw not realizing.

There is no interpretation or analysis in any of those statements, there are only declarations and speculations. For those of us not well-versed in whatever language it is you're communicating in, it didn't look like the concise and clear analysis you FINALLY provided.

Megasuper points on "Ohh he's scummy sure but not as scummy as charter"

I think there are a lot of people who have done scummy things, and right now, the only person whose alignment I know for sure is my own. However, I'm assuming there is more than one scum in the game, and I think Charter stands out over everyone else as the most likely scum, and that's why I have my vote on him.

[jenniwren]

Also there is no evidence that there is a three-man scum team yet you have no problem saying there is one.

I think pretty much everyone has been talking about a three-man scum team in the game. I just figured three-man scum teams would be standard in a 12 player game. (Like, in newbie games the town:scum ratio is 7:2, so it makes sense that it would be 9:3 in a slightly larger game...it's not in the wiki, but it seems like it would keep things fair that way.) Why single Charter out for talking like there are three since pretty much everyone is doing it?

I'm also lost on the SK thing.

However, even though I totally don't get the SK thing and where it came from, I do still think Charter is scum. I also think a no-lynch would be a disaster, despite what Charter would have everyone believe.

Anyway...

I've pieced together Charter's argument against XScorp, and I think it boils down to

1) Wait and See comment = Scum (ISO #6)
2) Timing of casting of vote/RVS= Scum (ISO #6)
3) Insistence of keeping vote on Robo = Scum (ISO #6)
4) Rolefishing = Scum (ISO #7)
5) Inverting questions and firing them back at Questioner = Scum (ISO #14)

These comments all strictly relate to how Charter views XScorp, and do not address any additional players. Altogether, if you read the ISO (I just paraphrased for brevity's sake--correct me if the paraphrasing is wrong.) then these five reasons serve as Charter's argument. I take back what I said about him not making an argument, though this argument is not going to convince me. I'd like to hear what other people have to say--what reasons are you using to vote for XScorp? What is your case against him? I personally don't think the Robo-vote and the Kirby-rolefish are compelling scumtells, especially since Charter himself voted Scorp, then called for a Robo lynch immediately thereafter, and a few others expressed curiosity about Kirby, though not as overtly as XScorp.

It's the fifth reason on Charter's list that tops my own list about Charter: basically anyone who has questioned or challenged his authority in any way in this game gets brought under scrutiny as scum.

I've given my argument about Charter several times already, but the crux of it boils down to these things:

1) Appears not to be hunting for scum but rather hunting for votes, as he obviously asks different people on multiple occasions if they will be willing to vote for someone he approves of voting for. Tested several wagons before settling on Scorp (including Robo), despite the fact that his vote was on Scorp from the beginning.

2) Sets people up for “scum” slots, but only people who question or challenge him; does not justify why he thinks these people are scum with legitimate reasons (legitimate reasons do not include "Charter's town and you're not, nyah-nyah" type arguments from other players).

3) Implies anyone who disagrees with him is scum and that not voting for his lynch choice makes him or her scum, which is a bullying tactic.

4) Is pre-emptively cautious:

a) i.e., votes for Scorp instead of Kirby immediately after “daykill” (even though everyone would have understood if he had voted Kirby as we were still sort of in RVS AND he might have just been day-killed) so as not to cast an OMGUS vote that could come back and haunt him later in case the daykill was fake (in all fairness, this is only my interpretation of what he did, though Spyre sees it as a definitive town-tell...so I guess it's a tell that is up to interpretation);

b) attacks people and undermines them if he perceives that they might prove to be troublesome later (and yes, I first noticed he was doing this when he did it with me; I am fully aware of that fact—but that doesn’t change that he just COULDN’T simply answer my question without first labeling me scum. He had to take the extra cautious step and label me first, before he addressed it, because my first post made a comment about something scummy he did--which he admits is scummy but boasts no one is paying attention that I pointed it out--and my second post directly questioned him.).

5) His overall tone is evasive, aggressive, and defensive, which suggests he has something to hide. Also, Robo (ISO #6) and SSBF (ISO #4) both called him out early on in the game for being too jumpy and too serious, and that nervous energy hasn't really been tamed as the game has progressed.

Therefore, in answer to your question, Hiphop, "Is the person you are voting really the person who you want to see lynched?"...my answer is Yes.

[jenniwren]

Any particular reason why, Zang?

[jenniwren]

Jenniwren is not scumhunting at all. Are you serious when you say that she is? Have you read her arguments? They are all craplogic. She called me, Kirby, and Spyrex scum, and that's the extent to faking it she's gone, and then backpedaled in like her next post. I kind of want to be lynched, since then you all will lynch the actual scum with swift retribution once you see the amazing role I sacrificed for the good of the town. I'll give you this much, I'm not vanilla, and I'm an AMAZING role.

I'm up to like five scum/hopeless idiots right now. I don't see how town is gonna win this game.

1) If your role is so amazing, then you should claim, because if people believe you, then I will probably be lynched anyway to avoid a no lynch and you won't have to die. (Nice AtE, by the way, offering to fall on your sword and sacrifice an AMAZING role for the good of the town. You're SUCH a martyr.) By not claiming, you're showing you're more interested in saving your own skin than helping the town achieve its win-con.

But,

you don't have an amazing pro-

TOWN

role, do you? And you know if you fake claim that you will be lynched first thing tomorrow because

a) I'm going to flip town (something you've always known because you are scum), and my flipping town will definitely implicate you in my lynch (and right now you're hoping you can talk your way out of that tomorrow by saying that first big post I made had you convinced I was scum...);
and
b) you can't prove your claim to be true because it doesn't exist and everyone will call you on it.

2) You want to say MY argument is weak? Look at your own. Aside from the mass of OMGUS that it is ("she called [us] scum!"), yours is so poor you have resorted to threats and namecalling to get your way. You may be having a grand time acting like you are, but I don't imagine many others are finding it very enjoyable to play with you.

First...there is a difference in saying someone is acting like a VI and needs to clean up his or her play style because they are doing scummy type things and what you are doing in this post. You go too far by calling people "hopeless idiots," as it is apparent you are no longer talking about their play style but their intellect instead.

You would do well to remember Rule #16, which is to remember that we're all real people and that we need to treat each other as such

. You are behaving like a bully, and insulting people for not bowing down to your will is NOT okay.

This is just a game, and I understand you want to win, but being mean and nasty isn't the way to do it.

(This also goes for the person who said I was "too dense" to understand something...you know who you are.)

If you are town, then start acting like it because that means we're on the same side, and you have been acting

very

anti-town. The wagon on you is your own fault, because, unlike you claim, people are NOT hopeless idiots and can see that what you have been doing is scummy. Take responsibility for your own actions and don't just stamp your foot and cry that others are at fault when things don't go your way.

[jenniwren]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but

[jenniwren]

er, ok...

Anyway, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I need more than "Charter is town and if you think he isn't then you're scum" to convince me of someone's innocence when they are consistently doing scummy things. I need more than "Xscorp is scum and if you don't think so then you are his scumbuddy" to convince me of someone's guilt. But, I've said that before.

[jenniwren]

Because jenni is still MORE SCUM. You may be misguided or scum, but she is scum or scum.

Wrong. I'm town. Geez, tunnel much? Or should we refer to your signature? "I always lynch scum... sometimes they're just not mafia."

I earnestly believed Charter was scum, and I was too damn stubborn to back down from that belief. It made me play dumb, and don't I know it now. However, Charter was too stubborn to back down from his belief about me, too, so it's a case of six to one, half dozen to the other. Scum obviously loved it, though. We were doing all their work for them, and we both ended up getting played. He just died first.

I have no idea what to think right now and am still trying to figure out what happened and who made it happen. All I know is I played the fool, and because of that, we lost the watcher. Other than that, I'm going to shut up

until

I get a better read on this game in light of the two flips.

[jenniwren]

I'm playing...just not posting...yet. No need to be mean.

[jenniwren]

I'm playing...just not posting...yet. No need to be mean.

Wow.

?

[jenniwren]

For clarification...
I said I wasn't going to post until I had reexamined everything and had my head on straight. Obviously I was wrong last week, and I was so convinced I was right that I kind of feel like I need to get my head out of the tunnel and start looking at the game more objectively because after Charter flipped, I realized I was doing it wrong. If I had been right, he would have flipped scum. I'm not posting because I don't have anything to say yet, but as soon as I think I have something, I will post. I mean, on D1, I posted a lot, and got really involved, and it amounted to nothing, so this time, I'm going to try to be more rational and objective and hopefully get it right. I got off on the wrong foot in the game, and I'm trying to fix it. That's all I meant.

[jenniwren]

I've had some thinking time, and I am finally back at school, too, so my schedule should even out (even though I won't have home internet until Thursday; I can use the library, but my access will depend on their hours) a bit.

I spent most of D1 tunneling on Charter because I thought he was acting pretty scummy. Obviously no matter how he was acting, he wasn't. In this tangled mess, I was also highly suspicious of Spyrex, for many reasons I've already given. I didn't understand how he could be so very positive that Charter wasn't scum. He hinted at being masons in this post but backs off at the same time.

MAYBE WE ARE MASONS OR SOMETHING ELSE AWESOME (Or maybe we are just awesome)

My guess is that "just awesome" is more believable than the masons claim, as Charter's flip didn't reveal that being part of his identity.

I'm still of mixed mind regarding Spyrex. I was pretty convinced he was scum before the flip; now I don't know. It never occurred to me that he might have been buddying Charter rather than simply believing in his innocence, but that does have merit. I've gotten interested in examining people's intent for what they do rather than just examining "tells" as a method for scumhunting.

So...
Who benefits most from what happened on D1? How could Spyrex benefit from any of it?
A) If Spyrex is town, he has the benefit of being right about Charter.
B) If Spyrex is scum, he has (A) which makes him look better to the town, because he was right. This in turn may make him less of a target.
C) If Spyrex is scum, and he knows I am town, then how does his pushing my lynch help him? Can he play the card that he totally believed in Charter because of one tell in the beginning despite all of his other scummy behavior yet never ever saw anything about me that might be town? If he is scum and he pushes my lynch, then I'm not sure my town flip will help him much because others have already started this conversation with him.

It's that "card" I mention in (C) that is causing me the most problems. Town-Spyrex is astute enough to have seen that Charter is town based on his reaction to the (non)-vig, but doesn't believe I was sincere about anything. Scum-Spyrex clears Charter, throwing suspicion on anyone who votes Charter. Scum-Spyrex also knows I am town, so pushing my lynch may make him more suspect, but I made such a lovely mess of things on D1 that it also makes sense for him to push my lynch while pretending to be town-Spyrex, and my flip will be as big a shock to him as Charter's was to me.

Which Spyrex benefits most because of my lynch?

The library is closing, so I have to cut it short. I am not voting yet because I am still not sure about Spyrex and I have other questions for a couple of others.

[jenniwren]

The thing is Spyrex, I

don't

see how it would benefit you to lynch me if you were scum, especially at this point. I would have gotten around to saying that in #397 if the gestapo who run our library hadn't come along with their yardsticks and chased me out of the lab before I could finish the post. I suppose I could have saved the draft and picked it back up later, but I posted it instead. Anyway, on D1 I was almost certain you were scum. Now, not so much.

What I am doing now is walking through D1 and questioning pretty much everything that happened using the same basic formula I did with you, which is to question the intent behind actions made by those still living on D2.

[jenniwren]

My problem is that I have too many scum suspects for this game, to the point I almost feel paranoid. How can you not suspect

any

one at this point?

Vote: Robocopter

L-2

[jenniwren]

Benmage: XScorp claimed he was roleblocked.

I'm not waiting around for a freaking explanation.

Real pro-town of you </sarcasm>

I tried to vig Confid (he was useless and didn't do anything yesterday). But bouncy was all AWWW you were prevented from killing anyone tonight, but you are free to try again on a later night.

unvote

Upon reviewing Robo's ISO, I'm not so sure he should be lynched.

However...if it comes down to it we need to lynch someone, though at this point I think scum are lurking to the point of inactive to either force a no lynch or another mislynch rather than drawing attention to themselves. I'd like very much for Robo to get a little more proactive about himself before voting for him. Enough people are inactive right now that his being at L-2 might result in a quick lynch, and I'd rather he have a chance to defend himself. However...the deadline is in freaking two days. Less than two days.

[jenniwren]

Meant to put this in my last post

Benmage: XScorp claimed he was roleblocked.

Too lazy to check but are you sure he actually claimed he was rb and not the doctor protecting whoever he tried to kill(not sure of that either, did he say)? How would a vig know that he was rb? Something is fishy there.

I quoted XScorp in that post. He said he was blocked.

[jenniwren]

You know Spyrex...
I fought for a lynch I believed in. I was wrong. (And heaven forgive me that I admitted I was wrong and needed to get some perspective.) But you didn't help matters by just repeating over and over again that anyone who disagreed with you was scum and calling me dense rather than actually trying to explain anything to someone who isn't a mindreader. When D2 started I didn't know where to begin, and on top of that, my credibility is shot, so even if I DO have any ideas about where to begin, it won't matter because I was so very wrong yesterday. Do you want me lynched because you think I'm scum? Or do you want a policy lynch (for VI) because I have no credibility left? There

is

a difference. Aside from that...

Do you think SSBF and Xvart are scum? Why?

[jenniwren]

Well this is just peachy. Two claimed PRs have been run up and we have no time to even talk about it...

If I vote hiphop, then Robo or SSBF (as he said he would be on to prevent a no-lynch if needed) can hammer; if I vote Robo we will have a no lynch unless Robo self-hammers or someone from hiphop's wagon switches in the next...three hours?

Vote: hiphop

Prev. Edit: gah Equinox!

Charter refused to disclose on D1 and I freaked out about it...and that went over so well.

I'll be online tonight keeping an eye out for this and will switch if no one else does...bah bah bah...

PREVIEW Prev. Edit

XXXXVART.

[jenniwren]

So last night XScorp was "roleblocked," and he claims this kill, but the mafia didn't kill anyone? Uh-huh.

Vote: XScorpion

[jenniwren]

unvote

I don't know if I believe hiphop's claim, but I'm going to think about it.

[jenniwren]

Considering all the other flips have been one-shot roles except for Charter's, there is a chance that there is a one-shot nurse as well. There isn't a need to lynch anyone right away, anyway.

[jenniwren]

EBWOP

Guys, now that I do not have a role, it is safe to say that i was only a One-Shot. Don't think it would be useful to keep it hidden any longer. Last night i saved myself.

I was planning to vote xscorp as soon as the day was started, but something happened. The mod told me my action was successful. The pm startled me, and made me rethink about whether xscorp was scum or not. If the mod is willing to say if my action was successful or not, then mod will no doubt do the same thing for anybody else including xscorp and his night 1 action. This of course makes for interesting dilemma.

1.If xscorp is mafia, he would know that the mod does this if he makes the kills, however so would xscorp has town when he tried to kill night 1.

2. Did the mafia target me last night and xscorp killed too, or did the mafia target xvart. The former would make sense, being mafia targets the protective role, except so does Wifom. That is all the info I have. I am not sure what to believe at the moment.

If you protected yourself, and XScorp killed Xvart, then the mafia would have had to have targeted you, wouldn't they? I don't get why they wouldn't RB XScorp again though or block you since you were a claimed PR. Is there a chance mafia RBs are one-shot?

[jenniwren]

SO hiphop, who is scum?

[jenniwren]

And this is definitely mylo, so don't speed lynch this until I say so, after I lay out the probable scum team. Although with this godawful town game speed isn't a concern.

Are you still going to lay out the team?

If people want to mass claim, that's fine because I've already soft-claimed my role all over the place on D1, but even with that, it will come down to one person's word against another since we're all posting at different times. One person could claim doc, and another could CC...who do we believe? I replaced into a game (now finished mini 238--T&S) in which one of the scum had claimed nurse and named the person he protected, but I was actually the nurse and had protected the same person (well, the guy I replaced did). It came down to his word against mine, and his scumbuddy (ironically the protectee) bussed him and they won.

Therefore, I don't know how much faith I have in claims, though it might give us a start. I don't know.

[jenniwren]

I'm Sugar Bear, a Vanilla Townie. You can't get enough of that Sugar Crisp, but lots of sugar is all I've got.

[jenniwren]

EBWODP: SSBF, your turn.

[jenniwren]

All I meant was that I said, repeatedly, on D1, that I was town. The closest I ever came to claiming VT was in post 169 in a response to SSBF.

Better rolefishing, but still rolefishing. Think about what you would say if someone said this to you no mater what your town-aligned role might be (anything from a PR to a VT). There is no way to respond to that. Let's just leave it at this: Lynching me won't help town win-con, and scum already know that. The only thing my death would achieve would be to help town eliminate a possible scum suspect, though at the same time it will reduce the number of town-aligned players.

Sorry it's not climactic enough for you. All I have ever been in this game is VT.

[jenniwren]

What else can I say?

[jenniwren]

I was thinking about what hiphop said and decided not to vote until things had been discussed further. I thought XScorp was lying since for two nights in a row there was only one NK, but hiphop claimed that he had saved himself, and since his action was successful, that meant there had been an attempt on his life; since XScorp claimed the Xvart kill, it made me consider the fact that he was telling the truth. (Note the sarcastic "uh-huh" in post 498.) It was a decision not to rush anything.

In other news, I'm still waiting to hear what Spyrex and Ben have to say since they have so

politely

asked for our silence.

[jenniwren]

How much cash? Because I'm not scum. Of course you won't believe me, because you've had your mind made up since Charter suggested it, but it's the truth. Pretend I don't exist; that whoever is in my slot has been a good little townie all the way through the game...is there anyone else you see who could fit the role?

I could buy hiphop as scum. I could even buy SSBF as scum. He earned the platinum townie title very early in D1 and no one has questioned him until now. Here's my question about him that I haven't asked yet because no one listens to me at this point anyway.

When I first accused Charter, SSBF was all over my case. Read posts 127, 131, and 157. He kept promising a long case against me until the end of the day rolled around (post 183 was the last time), and finally votes Charter after saying I am town (post 317). Hiphop also said I would be a "horrible" lynch (post 319). Kirby switched his vote soon thereafter. SSBF reappeared after the charter hammer to give advice for the vig (post 336). At one point, in 317, SSBF tells XScorp to vig charter if I flip town. However, he never tells XScorp to vig me if Charter flips town. That's been bothering me since Charter's flip.

Notice how similar the hiphop's quote in your post 572 is to what SSBF said in 317. How all of a sudden I am obv-town? They don't explain that other than saying I am just new and scumhunting the best that I can. You know what? By that point in D1 I was so frustrated because I honestly thought Charter was scum, and I was pretty sure Spyrex was scum, too. All I could see was that no one was even questioning them. And I was definitely wrong about Charter, and I feel like I'm probably wrong about Spyrex, but on D1 I was certain I had caught scum. When SSBF and hiphop were suddenly supportive, it was NICE. I relaxed a little. I didn't feel like an idiot anymore--until Charter flipped.

All I could think when I saw the flip was that a) Charter was town (duh); b) we might have an SK; c) SSBF and hiphop were directing the vig kills and at that point I was thinking maybe they weren't such the nice guys after all; d) the mafia would get their kill; and e) I would be mislynched on D2. If everything played out like I was fearing, it would have been a massacre, and it would have been my fault; it was like making a freaking grand slam for the wrong team. When D2 dawned with only one death and SSBF made a decent case against Spyrex, I fumbled again. I was set to make a case on SSBF; then his case on Spyrex confused me again and I just shut up to try to make sense of everything.

I haven't played well this game, but I

am

town.

Vote: hiphop

[jenniwren]

Equinox:

You're going to have to do better than insinuating that everyone who isn't on your wagon is scum and that everyone who is on your wagon is town. I for one am not afraid of that threat because I know you'll be proven wrong if you get me lynched, and then hopefully people who "see what you see" will start wondering what exactly it is that you are actually seeing before it's too late for the town. I made a bonehead mistake when I fired off a speculation about the possible identity of an entire scum team instead of just focusing on you, and if that results in my being lynched, at the very least I know my flip will turn the suspicion back where it needs to be.

I found it odd that you would specifically bring up masons instead of just saying there was a three-person town group, which gave me the feeling that you had some sort of knowledge of a mason group. If that was the case, you would be setting yourself at a risk of being NK'd and no town player wants a power role to be killed off.

Better rolefishing, but still rolefishing. Think about what you would say if someone said this to you no mater what your town-aligned role might be (anything from a PR to a VT). There is no way to respond to that. Let's just leave it at this:

Lynching me won't help town win-con, and scum already know that. The only thing my death would achieve would be to help town eliminate a possible scum suspect, though at the same time it will reduce the number of town-aligned players.

That's why I don't get why you're not paying attention to what Charter is doing.

@XScorp
How about this:

Charter pushes my lynch and I flip town

. Who's the scum now? We can play this game all day. I'd rather not.

I also really like the protective percentage qualifiers at the end of your first sentence here. When, for example,

you succeed in herding the rest of the town into lynching me and I flip town

, you've protected yourself by saying there's still a chance you're wrong.
<snip>
I also know he "claims" to be scumhunting me, but I'm not scum, so I know how bogus his accusations are. You can huff and puff and blow as much as you want, but that won't change my alignment.

I think there are a lot of people who have done scummy things, and right now, the only person whose alignment I know for sure is my own.

<snip massive intro>
a) I'm going to flip town (something you've always known because you are scum), and my flipping town will definitely implicate you in my lynch; <snip>

If you are town, then start acting like it because that means we're on the same side.

Note: this sanctimonious little post of mine was probably the biggest kick in the teeth after the flip. I was so very certain I was right that at this point, nothing would have made me change my vote. I felt pretty bad about being so snotty to charter, too.

[jenniwren]

It's not breadcrumbing so much as softclaiming, which I did because I was being accused of being scum and came pretty close to being lynched (and charter and Spyrex were pushing hard for that outcome). By softclaiming I mean that I never flat out said I was Vanilla, but that I just implied it a lot; i.e., all the times I said my lynch was only good for information and when I answered SSBF about the mason group (how I couldn't answer no matter what my role was). I never claimed VT outright, just hinted at it.

[jenniwren]

He claim to use his one-shot vig on xvart: I don't see a town vig (Especially not a one-shot town vig) killing one of the most valueable players in the game who made strong scum hunting effort and was on many people's town list is a good idea for a town vig. XScorpion's reason? His hammer on Robocopter87. I don't see how that hammer was scummy. He was hammering a person he heavily suspected and it was litterally hours away from the deadline. This further supports my theory that xvart wasn't a vig kill, but a mafia kill.

Good point.

unvote

[jenniwren]

I'm leaning for No Lynch at the moment.

[jenniwren]

I'm not bussing either of them because I'm not scum. I'm as torn about this as you seem to be.

[jenniwren]

I unvoted XScorp because I didn't want to risk it...hiphop pointed something out that made me reconsider.

Jenni- if there are 3 scum and you xscorp and ben are not scum, then this game can be over like that especially because of this

bouncy.bouncy wrote:This game is a 12-player closed setup with normal game mechanics. Daytalking is permitted for Mafia/Mason/etc. A Mafia player may perform a kill in addition to performing his/her own role action(s) on the same night. The game will end early if such is fair. Flavor should not affect the outcome of the game.

Mafia can coordinate their votes, and most likely will. So UNVOTE if you have any doubts in your mind at all.

I unvoted hiphop because SSBF said something that also made me reconsider. I'm not saying that either one isn't scum, but as you yourself have pointed out, this is a big decision for the town and making the wrong decision could seal our fate.

He claim to use his one-shot vig on xvart: I don't see a town vig (Especially not a one-shot town vig) killing one of the most valueable players in the game who made strong scum hunting effort and was on many people's town list is a good idea for a town vig. XScorpion's reason? His hammer on Robocopter87. I don't see how that hammer was scummy. He was hammering a person he heavily suspected and it was litterally hours away from the deadline. This further supports my theory that xvart wasn't a vig kill, but a mafia kill.

[jenniwren]

At this point XScorp or Kirby; SSBF's point about XScorp is a good one; Kirby has been actively lurking throughout the game. I could also see hiphop or SpyreX in the third position.

[jenniwren]

SSBF:

XScorp+Kirby+Spyrex+hiphop

hiphop :

I wasn't sure which three people to choose at that point when you asked.

[jenniwren]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Bear

Sugar Bear is the advertising cartoon mascot of Post Super Sugar Crisp (later Golden Crisp) cereal.

Lyrics to the original song: "Can't get enough that Sugar Crisp, Sugar Crisp, Sugar Crisp.Can't get enough of that Sugar Crisp, it helps keeps me going strong."

My dad always called me Sugar Bear, and he sang me this song all the damn time. I know exactly what my cereal is.

[jenniwren]

http://mistertoast.blogspot.com/2007/09 ... -bear.html

Visual proof.

You're really grasping at straws there.

[jenniwren]

The only reason igaf about being lynched right now is because I'm town and we need to lynch scum. Otherwise I would say lynch me and put it to rest.

Vote: No Lynch

[jenniwren]

Hip-hop what do you think about equinox, a strong town voice...voting you...dead... convenient aye, bet you're glad you swindled some town into that no lynch aye. Tsk tsk. nubs will hopefully learn after this one.

This post right here is just, wow. Of the remaining players, Equinox and SSBF have been the most town of all, so it's obvious one of them would have been dead today. Why are you acting so surprised?

[jenniwren]

vote:hiphop

This game has broken my brain.

[jenniwren]

See, normally I am pretty rational and logical. I'm working on a freaking PhD in literature. I parse text all damn day. But you people...you people...you just...broke my brain. In ways Shakespeare, Yeats, Joyce...all of them...never could. I have faced down Woolf, Eliot and Elliot, Stein, the whole sodding lot of them, and I still haven't ever been as confused as I have been in this game.

[jenniwren]

Vote: SSBF

[jenniwren]

Since I'm not the last scum, going to unvote until SSBF talks; if he isn't scum, then there are either two scum on or off the wagon, and I don't trust any of you at this point.

unvote

[jenniwren]

We're not in LYLO anymore, right?

So, if you still think I'm scum, you should lynch me today. Spyrex announced he would vote for me in the end anyway, so if it came back to LYLO and he and I were both left, then if he's town, he would lose the game for town because he has tunneled so hard on me. Go on and lynch me and get the distraction out of the way, then. I'm town, and since people aren't going to believe that, then it makes sense to get rid of me now before having me alive makes me an endgame liability.

[jenniwren]

Happy Anniversary, Spyrex...

I've never been so confused about anything in my life as I have been about this game.

[jenniwren]

Charter: I'm sorry I tunneled on you so much. Why were you so convinced I was scum before I even voted for you?