Mini 1026 - Ohne Mafia (Game Over!)

[Zhero]

Vote Count 2

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

a2rudeboy (1): Furcolow
boberz (1): foilist13
FEMM the Attorney (1): NicolBolas
Furcolow (2): archaebob, Tasky
NicolBolas (2): boberz, FEMM the Attorney
Wraith (1): Hrezs

Not Voting: a2rudeboy, caelum, moose200x, Wraith

[boberz]

Fur, I also lpay a different game from what people expect, so long as you can justify it I dont care. The point is you cannot, and have not been able to in other games, hence you become a mislynched townie.

I am aware Fur has suggested a massroleclaim, among a few other cringeworthy things. But he has form, search for completed games and have a look. Too early for this him.

Fur, do you really think reading a game and not posting is a scumtell, when I had already posted in it several times??? Surely not.

---

@NB Femm and I cross posted with the flip flopping thing, so you need to remove that from your FEMM case. In fact the whole case seems to be links from him to others, I dont like links between people untill you know what the other person is. Also I regularly vote not to lynch, I think most people do; votes are for bandwagons pressure not ust lynches.

---

Your delay on is why its scummy. You mentioned it before, but instead of voting then, you waited. Putting it down for that reason now is deflecting attention off of yourself.
Town should not have any reason to be nervous, they have nothing to hide.

I can tell we are going to disagree on a lot. Deflecting attention is not scummy either. And that was part (only part) of the vote. I was also able to analyse whether ther may be scope for a bandwagon which I decided there may have been, and whether NB had adequately answered.

However nor is the time to

unvote

whilst I still sense that the outlook changed, and it was not hard to convinvce NB, also that others had already raised the points that seemed so convincing to NB. But he is right that he didnt actually flip flop in terms of the fact.

So now where to put my vote.

@Hrezs, I have already answered your point about nervousness several times, your repeating it does not actually rebutt my response. The fact is people feel nervous even when they are innocent, but it was not this that was the overwhelming factor behind my reaction

---

Furcolow

FoS: Boberz for checking the forum and not posting

it wasn't serious.

I was suspicious of his lurking the forum and not posting until being called out on it.

The only thing that changed there was me being called out on it but the calling out gave me a reason to post.

[boberz]

And I'm not a democrat.

vote: nic

...

unvote

Why is this all you have to say so far a2??? Stuff to comment on had happened at this point, and if you predicted you had a VLA/couple of days with no posting why not atleast mention what had happened.

---

[Tasky]

@Tasky- attacking for somebody for being scummy and telling them to think of why they are scummy strikes me as a strange way to scumhunt. can you explain why you are trying this?

it is strange indeed... I learned it from a great (off-line) player, he uses it a lot and it really works... so I wanted to try it out, maybe it works online too...
of course, if I tell you how it works, it won't work anymore, therefore I'd like all of you to answer the question even if it looks silly.

then, after a lot of people have answered, I will post my reads (otherwise the whole point would be lost).

[NicolBolas]

Tasky- you want me to tell you what i think you think of me?

I think that you think i am asking a lot of questions.

In my opinion, your method is just a roundabout way to try and *censored*. I see why you are doing it now. I'm curious about the results now.

[caelum]

Blah. The lot of you are pretty freakin' scummy but I'll focus on the people who I feel are the scummiest.

Moose:

Archaebob- You are 100% right in your argument. There was nothing you said I disagreed with in regards to boberz.

Why would you "100%" agree with Archaebob in his argument and then not back up your words with a vote?

Do you tend to flip flop alot? Are always looking to join a bandwagon?

I don't see the point to these questions. You admitted that you didn't read his explanation, and then since you didn't focus on his explanation I assume that you were satisfied by it as well. How does his behavior when it comes to BW's affect his alignment at all?

He 'flip-flopped' once and for good reason, looks like you're either subtly trying to make something innocuous seem scummy or defend your lack of attention to his previous post. Don't try to defend it by saying that you were looking for more information, because I fail to see how his BW patterns will affect your read on him.

So, I am totally lost now. Going to work, be back later guys

What call is there for confusion? I didn't see anything that confused me [excluding Bober's WIFOM defense], what confused you?

Moose's last 5 posts

You think I am awesome. You also think I am very cool.
I'd guess for realz you think very little of me.

What does "Most fallacious tell ever." mean? I feel dumb right now.

Want a claim = Tell me your role = Fishing of roles = Rolefishing

Yeah no political talk. Jesus isn't real. LOL

So it's all war, jesus and guns for you eh? Meh, no political talk. LOL.
So, I am totally lost now. Going to work, be back later guys

Can you explain the lack of real material in your posts over the last 3 or 4 pages?

Bober

Archae/Others have covered my main problems with you. However:

Have you heard of Andy Burnham?
Of course I have, I wouldnt have asked the question otherwise. A politician in Britain but I did not really expect anyone to know him
The reason for this question was firstly to prove my mate wrong, but secondly put people a bit at ease (a trick I learned when I first saw RQS, making them think the questions were a bit more icebreakery

Why would you want them to be more icebreakery? Icebreakery doesn't give us useful information, it gives us 3 pages of nonsense.

It pops out because you've been crusading RQS over RVS this game, RVS > Icebreaker questions. Agree/Deny?

Why would you want to put people at ease? Seems more of a scum tactic, to put people at ease rather then keeping them on guard and sharp at all times.

Furclow

Most stuff has been covered by others.

it wasn't serious.

If your FoS wasn't serious... why make a FoS in the first place. This makes me think that you're lying and that you had some basis for that FoS, which doesn't make sense because why didn't you just vote Bob instead of joke voting someone else?

I am content with boberz defense of himself. I'm not ready to write him off as confirmed, and I wasn't ever really suspicious of the RQS, I was suspicious of his lurking the forum and not posting until being called out on it.

I don't remember Bober ever addressing him lurking on the forum, so unless you can point that out, I want you to explain how you were satisfied with his defense.

[foilist13]

unvote, vote: furcolow

tags didn't go through.

More later

[archaebob]

A few comments:

- The case against NicolBolas is utter trash. He didn't "flipflop" his opinion, he changed it in light of new information. And he's defended himself quite well. Anyone who stays on that wagon without formulating a new attack on Nic is active lurking, period. That means you, Femm. If you put so much emphasis on flipflopping, then you need to read furcolow's iso and tell me who you think between the two has been flipflopping more.

@ Boberz - Nervousness is only a null-tell if you are a noob. You are not a noob. Experienced townies have no need to flip their lid at a vote.

And I'm not interested in whether or not you think you were nervous. This is pure semantics and ninja dodging of my attack. You can define and redefine what it actually means to be nervous, and it won't get you anywhere; the point is that your reaction betrayed a level of anxiety not characteristic of town.

Nervous energy absolutely IS a scum-tell. I don't care what you want to call it. There are at least two distinct games where I nailed scum five or six pages in because of the overly-analytical and defensive tone of their posts. You aren't going to convince me that it's not a scumtell by trying to interpret the problem out of existence.

The only thing you've done since my case on you is defend yourself poorly, make lots of fluff posts about theory, and vote against NicolBolas based on an extremely bullshit case. If you're actually town, then you need to get your discombobulated act together now, or motherfucking else.

Notes to all the players

(I don't normally do these, but this game is unusually dense with noobery.):

a2rudeboy - Play or replace out. We don't have time for this crap.

boberz - Addressed above.

caelum - I like your last post a lot, but I'm missing a vote. Also you haven't been around, so I'd like some more content in general. Tell me more, tell me more! (sung in the style of Grease)

Femm - Most of your play is fluff. The only content you've posted (about Nic) has been useless. I don't really see what you've contributed to town so far. There's a lot to comment on right now, so please do something with yourself and with your vote that helps town reach its win condition.

Foilist - Meh. You're doing less than you usually do, which is disconcerting.

Hrez - Your posts are too short. Why did you vote wraith? Saying "I'm not feeling it" is not adequate. I need to be able to figure out your alignment, and the only way I can do that is if you make arguments against people. I like your individuality and your attitude, but I need more content.

Moose - Caelum took you to task on your play, and I agree with him completely. You've done absolutely nothing but bandwagon, make glib and ill founded insinuations against Nic, post theoretical fluff, and spew political excrement. In any other game I've ever played, you'd be my number one scum pick.

NicolBolas - So far, I have the least complaints about your play. You write coherently, your logic is good, you have opinions which you stand by, and you seem to be paying attention. Up to this point, you've mostly concerned yourself with the attacks on you (not solely, just mostly); stop wasting your time, the attack is crap, and you won't get lynched for it. I'd like to see you go on the offensive and really sink your teeth into something.

Tasky - You say you have this weird scumhunting strategy...well, I have no clue what you're doing, and I need to see some results very soon. Your play up to this point is pretty much devoid of content, and your characterization of the boberz wagon in your iso #2 makes me think you aren't reading the thread carefully.

Wraith - I can tell you're a smart dude, and that makes me very unhappy with your play. You're active lurking. Do a votecount yourself if you have to. But start playing.

^ As you can see, there are way more of you whose play I don't like right now than I can possibly vote. So please, make a change yourself, or town WILL lose this game. And don't get offended if I come after you hard in this post, that's just me, it's not something to be taken personally. The important thing is that we get some measure of pro-townness in this thread; right now, the signal to noise ratio is exceptionally low.

[archaebob]

And now the meat.

@ Furcolow -

If you missed my questions, then you need to read thread more carefully. Your play is horribly anti-town:

1) You asked for a claim and a lynch on pg. 3. This is like buying the scum gift cards to a gun store.
2) You've contributed very little content. The only original insight you've offered is to call a2rudeboy out for lurking. This is easy as hell to do as scum, and does not contribute anything of value to the town.
3) You've flip-flopped and contradicted yourself quite a few times. I'll bring it up in a bit if no one else does, but first I want to see if anyone else picks up on it.

You're play is very scummy. And if you aren't scum, you are a VI. Either way, you're my top candidate for the D1 lynch so far.

[NicolBolas]

@Archaebob- you act very zealous. Is this your normal playing style? I would like some links to previous games where you acted this way if possible. Strong rhetoric and very pro-town posting does not always mean you are a townie.

I want to point out several things i do not like here in boberz's post.

Fur, I also lpay a different game from what people expect, so long as you can justify it I dont care. The point is you cannot, and have not been able to in other games, hence you become a mislynched townie.

@NB Femm and I cross posted with the flip flopping thing, so you need to remove that from your FEMM case. In fact the whole case seems to be links from him to others, I dont like links between people untill you know what the other person is.

1) "mislynched townie"- Do you have knowledge that he will be a mislynched townie, not scum? This may be a possible scum slip.

2) FEMM was the first one to accuse me of flip flopping. His case on me was, as archaebob says, full of crap. I found this scummy. That is why i have him voted. I do not see a reason for removing that point from my case. About the links between FEMM and other players: It was odd, so i pointed it out. It doesnt matter what you like. If i see something i think is different, I call it out.

@FEMM- Where are you? I want your defense from the things i noticed.
--
I will read through Fur's posts to see if i can find what archaebob was referring to. But- for now, I want FEMM to be lynched for his strawman case on me. Call it OMGUS if you want.

[NicolBolas]

All right. read through Fur's posts. FEMM is worse. I want answers from FEMM.

[archaebob]

@ Nic -

This should answer your question.

[archaebob]

^ The above link is also a great example of why nervous energy IS a scum-tell. That was my second post of the game, and I was completely right.

[NicolBolas]

All right. Textwalls are normal for archaebob. this makes it a null tactic.

I noticed. you seem good at spotting that type of thing.

For me, archaebob is leaning town.

[boberz]

@NB, are you serious??? It is clear I was talking about his meta, something you all need to read before you lynch the fool. And it was the link between FEMM and I (as you perceived) that I suggested you drop, not the case itself.

@abob, I admitt I have been focussed too heavilly on theory and indeed defending myself. But this is the effect caused by more than half of the voting players voting me in the first three pages on grounds I found neither true in context nor scummy at all. Of course I am going to try and undermine the attacks against me if they are wrong. Contrary to that note I think we are going to have to agree to disagree about nerves, whether I was feeling them and whether they are scummy. I never redefined nervous though, so stop slinging mud to just hope it sticks.

@Tasky, I sense much of what you are thinking of me is comparative to, or directly involving a game we just finished that is active. Therefore we should not expand.

@abob, I already pointed at one of fur's inconsistencies. But trust me, read his meta before pursuing the guy. I am not suggesting he is safe, but I think it is worth leaving for a night or two.

@caelum, making people answering icebreakery questions puts people at ease and makes the questions seem less scumhuntery. Making it more likely for scum to slip. Go read an MD thread about RQS or indeed more experienced players using it, there are often more than 1 icebreakery type question. Come on guys at least attack me with sense. Ice breakery questions v RVS, I pick icebreakery questions, but I actually prefer a proper RQS like what I did. What I detest are random votes, ending in mislynches.

[boberz]

^ The above link is also a great example of why nervous energy IS a scum-tell. That was my second post of the game, and I was completely right.

There must be hundreds of converse examples, your evidence is nothing. And it is this logic which loses mafia games every day.

[NicolBolas]

boberz- I'm not disregarding the link because FEMM said flip-flop, then you crossposted saying that i changed my opinion. I'm looking at the fact you keep on accusing me of flip flopping thru the last three pages. This is what links you with FEMM. I'm just pointing out a link. Maybe it is scummy, maybe it is not.

[archaebob]

@ boberz -

Nervousness isn't a blanket, objective tell that you can apply in all situations. It's something you use on a case by case basis. When I scumhunt, I form a model about how someone thinks based on the way they write, and then I find things that don't match up with that model. If my model is accurate, then the things I found are scum-tells, because they stem from contrived motivations instead of genuine feelings that follow from their way of thinking.

Like I said, nervousness is not necessarily a scum-tell for noob players, or for any player in general who has a track record of being nervous as town. It IS however a scum-tell for YOU, in THIS game, because you are not a noob, and your posts sound contrived. You need to defend your reasoning instead of trying to categorically write off nervousness as a scum-tell. There are many different types of nervousness, and the english language is too crude to meaningfully articulate the differences between some of them. You are scummy because the

specific

things you have written in this game seem to come from a scum mindset, not because I've decided as a matter of principle that nervousness is "always" a scum-tell.

And you still aren't scumhunting.

[Furcolow]

@caelum: my fos wasn't serious because it was page 1. Do you believe you can catch scum on page 1? Typically people who FoS and vote someone like I did will be aligned with the person they FoSed in the first place, correct? Isn't that a standard JEEP tell?

In regards to boberz saying I get mislynched as a townie quite often, I am not going to be changing my play whatsoever.

[NicolBolas]

Typically people who FoS and vote someone like I did will be aligned with the person they FoSed in the first place, correct?

Just pointing out a sentence i really dont like from Fur. I see no protown motivation for saying this.

[Furcolow]

Fur, do you really think reading a game and not posting is a scumtell, when I had already posted in it several times??? Surely not.

I saw you online and tried to get a reaction out of you. Based upon the way you responded, you were decently close to being lynched. I'm surprised that there was such an evening out and a counterpush, though, at all, which indicates that scum may have not wanted you lynched whatsoever. This feels, to me, as more of a fifty fifty scenario. I am more suspicious of you right now than I was when I voted for you, but it's not what I believe, it's what I can make the town believe in that regards. If the town believes I'm mafia, when I'm a medic, I'm going to be lynched and be a dead medic. If the town believes I'm a detective, and I'm really the Godfather, well. My point is that I am not going to be voting for you, but I am open to the possibility of you having been saved by your team.

[Furcolow]

Typically people who FoS and vote someone like I did will be aligned with the person they FoSed in the first place, correct?

Just pointing out a sentence i really dont like from Fur. I see no protown motivation for saying this.

Of course you don't. You have the second amount of votes and I have the first. If you didn't push me you'd be dumb

[NicolBolas]

Typically people who FoS and vote someone like I did will be aligned with the person they FoSed in the first place, correct?

Just pointing out a sentence i really dont like from Fur. I see no protown motivation for saying this.

Of course you don't. You have the second amount of votes and I have the first. If you didn't push me you'd be dumb

What the hell? have you been reading? If you havent noticed, i have been "pushing" FEMM over you, hmm?

[Furcolow]

pushing doesnt = voting to you? cute.

[NicolBolas]

I want FEMM lynched right now.

You, i think, are most likely town-aligned, but your sentence i disliked.


This =/= pushing you.