Mini 1000: The Brave and the Beautiful (Game Over)

[Iecerint]

@ MoI -- Do you still think Kast is proper scum? If so, why does my logic fail to hold?

@ Kdub/bv -- What do you think about what I've pointed out?

[Kast]

@Muffin-

a) Shotty claimed he ran out of kills. You think the SK is going to sit on his hands until endgame? (The point is to remind you of this detail.)

You didn't actually address this point. The implication of claiming my player slot is an SK is that you are claiming an SK would plausibly claim to never kill again. If there was ever a night with multiple kills, or if a tracker or watcher saw the suspected SK taking a night action, then the SK is obviously hosed.

@Iec-
I know Shotty targeted Neto on N1. If MoI was telling the truth about Grapple Beam, then Spyrex would have died by shot. Also, given the amount of unnecessary flavor that RC gave for a N2 failed kill, I don't think it is at all plausible that he wouldn't have given even a small hint that the N1 kill was copied/transferred/etc. MoI has also been very careful with his wording of abilities, so I don't buy for one second that he messed up paraphrasing the Grapple Beam.

MoI also is essentially confirming Muffin as an affiliation cop.

Spoiler: That leaves a few possibilities

-Muffin is town and MoI is town/mafia/3rd party
-Muffin is 3rd party and MoI is town/mafia
-Muffin is mafia and MoI is mafia

It does not leave the possibility of Muffin as mafia and MoI as non-mafia.

[Iecerint]

Ok, so RC didn't initially give me the actual PMs between himself and Shotty. I asked for those and just got them now. Some things based on those:

-Shotty tried to kill Muffin due to being suspicious about the investigation result on Chun Li.

-Shotty received a Night 2 Results PM which included flavor that stated Chun Li's room had an evil smell, though Chun Li herself had nothing evil or anything that indicated her of being evil.
--It also stated that there was an Asian girl sleeping outside Shotty's room.
--It also stated that someone had noticably visited Muffin's room prior to Shotty going there.
---Shotty made a loud metallic click sound on arriving at Muffin's room.
---Something made a sound after Shotty attempted to kill Muffin.

1. Have we worked out what Asian girl targeted Shotty N2?
2. Have we worked out who else targeted Muffin N2? (Figure it could be whoever protected him.)

Yes/No on those two might be OK at this point.

3. SHOTTY made the click? Wat? And that's different from
4. The sound that went after the attempted kill?

[Furcolow]

It does not leave the possibility of Muffin as mafia and MoI as non-mafia.

So let's lynch MoI. If he is red, then we know to lynch muffin, if he isn't, we have a confirmed town by this logic. My only problem with this is I've seen some town players do some funky things that didn't make any sense.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Played like crap? This just proves that you run your mouth so much you can't spend time to listen. I had dramonic pinned, I had KMD/Reaper as a scumpair in some of my posts. Go read me in iso idiot.

You did absolutely play like crap. You keep spouting that you had KMD/Reaper as a scumpair. Yet you didn’t make MOVE 1 to lynch either of them. In fact you were about to be lynched for your scummy play and had to Treestump to avoid death. Face facts - you are a perfect example of a Village Idiot here at MS.

So let's lynch MoI. If he is red, then we know to lynch muffin, if he isn't, we have a confirmed town by this logic. My only problem with this is I've seen some town players do some funky things that didn't make any sense.

Hi I’m Furc and I don’t pay ANY ATTENTION TO THE GAME. Otherwise I would know it is a Limited Reveal game and that MoI will flip PINK, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE HAS.

Scumtastic.

The bottom line is that this game is not JUST a limited reveal game, but ALSO a delayed reveal game. Your attempts to pretend it is only limited reveal are blatant denials of something the mod has proven with evidence.

Way to misrep. You attacked me saying I wanted to lynch you before Neto flips scum. I responded say that I want you lynched because you are scumtastic. Your attempts to twist this argument into my saying that millar wasn’t revealed as scum are ludicrous. I’ve never said he wasn’t.

Other points include his poorly thought out claimed target choices and reasons (again independent of Neto's affiliation); his (relatively) unbalanced claimed ability (again independent of Neto); and the inconsistency between his stated distrust of

1. You assertion that my targets are poorly thought out is simply your opinion. Your ‘choices’ of supposed Vig targets are poorly thought out. So you must be scum. See how that works.
2. My claim isn’t unbalanced at all. I’m a two shot Ability Borrower / User. All the ‘rest’ of your evidence of unbalance rests on you throwing other abilities into the fray. Suddenly I'm a Jailkeeper - Roleblocker - Thief all in one.
3. Not sure what the inconsitency is when you don’t even discuss who my distrust is of.

Ask about it.

I have.

You've contradicted yourself by claiming/implying that proven abilities would prove alignment.

No I haven’t … nice strawmanning. I like how you ignore other player’s abilities to use judgement in making reads and assessments.

Once again I will state clearly so you can understand – Ability information CONFIRMED by the Mod is much stronger evidence that I can use in making reads than unsolicited statements made by a player. And please point to where I’ve said learning Neto’s ability would PROVE he is Town. I haven’t. I said -

Because I wanted to see what his abilities were and assess whether they were

likely

to indicate a Town role. Because as a logical player he would be a strong Town asset.. Precisely the reason you killed him.

I’ve bolded the LIKELY for you. So please STOP LYING about what I am saying. I’ve NEVER said Neto’s power would prove he was town.

Don't avoid the questions. Explain how it is better to confirm someone you suspect is a townie than to stop your suspected mafia kill while confirming that player as scum.

Don’t you read? I’ve stated I believe the generic Mafia kill is Factional and would not be stolen by my ability. You can argue MOD mechanics all you want but you CAN’T know whether I’m correct or not. Like so many of your other arguments it’s pure supposition on your part.

To everyone else on this point

– Whenever a player assert that Game Mechanics must operate in a certain fashion that they have no way to know (Kast’s statements about how my own ability works and how the GM would resolved the Grapple Beam, for example) it’s pure supposition.

If that is honestly how you feel, then we have a serious disagreement in basic theory. I strongly disagree with your assertion that a cop should ignore his top two suspects in favor of checking/clearing a lurker.

If you are just pretending to believe that, then I really dislike your scum tactics; attempting to lowering the quality of game play in order to benefit your team is just lame.

We do have a disagreement about how a Cop should be played. Here’s a hint – your opinion is no more valid than anyone else’s. The bolded portion is a great attempt to throw mud.

This is NOT what you did; you investigated someone you did not suspect and ignored both of your top two reads.

More unsubstantiated bullcrap. Prove I ignored my top reads. Otherwise you’re just once again lying and making things up.

You have asserted that you are correct, but never once attempted to explain or address my explanation.

You’ve only asseted that you are correct. Your point with this?

Are you paying any attention? Agreed, I am the one arguing that kill flavor is a game mechanic. You are the one claiming that kill flavor is meaningless.

Again you are LYING. I’ve never said kill flavour is meaningless. I’m clearly arguing that the DESTROYED death flavor of Spyrex indicates the effect of Neto’s being killed while using Grapple Beam on Spyrex. That’s not saying it is meaningless.

At the same time, you are claiming that lynch scene flavor is actually indicative of the number of remaining scum. This is a ridiculous and unfounded claim.

You are arguing that flavor text only viewable by you in a PM is meaningful to the Night’s events while flavor text posted in thread by the Mod is meaningless. Also note that it wasn’t lynch scene flavor but flavor during millar’s scum reveal. Yet another inaccuracy on your part.

Reading comprehension failure. The mod never stated that "Destroyed" is generic kill flavor. The mod stated that it is the lynch flavor. MoI stated that "destroyed" is generic kill flavor. I pointed this out as a possible slip that MoI has private information that "destroyed" is actually the "generic kill flavor" for this game. The only reason MoI would know this is if MoI is scum who knows the generic scum kill flavor.

I’ve never said ‘Destroyed’ is a generic scum flavor. You did. I’ve said REPEATEDLY that Destroyed is the generic death flavor that comes when someone dies when not directly targeted by a kill.

You are assuming there is generic kill flavour for the Mafia. Please indicate how this makes any logic sense in that we have kills flavors of Shot (Neto) and Scratched and Torn (Ythan).

-To be clear, when you say you "hid" it's similar to a standard commuter ability. MoI's post seems to assume you used a redirection ability (ie. reverse bodyguard).

No my post clearly assumes his second ability is a Hider. I know you must be aware of that role.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@ MoI -- Do you still think Kast is proper scum? If so, why does my logic fail to hold?

Kast’s scummy attack on me today is pretty much forcing me to believe he’s scum. Let’s look at the components of his attac.

1. That my information about the GrappleBeam is a lie based solely on the flavor of Spyrex’s death being generic instead of Shot. This indicates that I’ve botched a fake-claim.

He’s not addressing any of the following regarding my claim.

1. That my nameclaim (Rikku) and job (Thief) match perfectly with the source material. Additionally bv310 has Mod confirmation (in the form of my 3rd Night ability use) that I am Rikku.
2. That his assertion regarding the flavor of Spyrex’s death is simply ‘outguessing’ the Mod.
3. That as the last scum (which Kast has repeatedly stated is his belief) it would make NO sense for me to provide an unprovoked, complicated claim Day 4 when I was under ZERO pressure prior to today.

2. That my choice of secondary targets (Neto and bv310) is scummy.
3. That my choice of primary targets (Furc and Muffin) is scummy because I should have been chosing other targets.

Both are simply further subjective standards and not indicitive of scummy play.

Furthermore let’s quickly glance at what he isn’t addressing –

Voting records. Not a single mention is made of my vote for millar made early in Day 1 that I kept on him the entire day.

In summary the entirety of his case is based on supposition and discrediting my claim based on a perceived weakness in 1 aspect of the claim.

But let’s look at Shotty’s ISO for vote records and other items of note (note regarding any ISOs not listed – they are pure fluff) –

ISO 0 – RVS vote for Iec.
ISO 2 – “I'm going to withhold information from this town by not answering Neto's questions.” – a Null read but certainly not Pro-Town.

Guilty people are paranoid, innocents have nothing to fear.

Unvote vote robo

His first mention of Robo. The reasoning for his vote is weak.
ISO 5 – Minor elaboration on his ISO 4 vote reasoning.

I haven't reread yet to find this dayaction,

but how is voting someone for terrible arguments scummy? What a joke.

Of course I was trying to get votes on him when he's behaving like a scum-bag. You had to go back REALLY far to find someone to throw this terrible argument against too, what was that page 3 or 4 or something?

Emphasis added. Neto’s attack on Shotty is for exactly the same reason that Kast has attacked Neto’s vote on Robo – that it is weak and opportunistic.

ISO 7 – OMGUS votes Neto and makes minor mention of millar.
ISO 8 - Argues against Iec statement that Neto and Shotty are distancing.
ISO 11 – Votes millar to L-1. 2 hours later Furc hammers.

Both votes look like late bussing. All three players were under heavy pressure and could have been the lynch.

ISO 12 – Mentions ‘uneasy’ with Sarak Kerrigan’s ‘human flip’. States the obvious – that lack of alignment with flips makes determining how the Day is going difficult.
ISO 13 – Defends lack of contributions to game, states he will be ‘better’ today.
ISO 15 – Questions my call for the ‘Vig’ to come forward.
ISO 16 – Claims Neto kill.

This is funny, why WOULDN'T you believe the claim? There's no one counter-claiming and no plausible reason I would lie about it. If I am then whoever shot Neto would shoot me yes? What does my activity have to do with my roleclaim? Why are you trying so hard to discredit my claim?

unvote vote muffin

Votes Muffin for questioning his claim, which is weak reasoning given Muffin's statement that he has Neto as a solid Town read. Note the false statement that there is “no plausible reason I would lie about it”. There are several – he’s a SK or a Mafian who fell for my gambit.

ISO 18 – Names Furc and Muffin as top suspects. Says Iec is Town who has fooled him in the past.

I'll agree to the plan to not shoot Furc if that's what the town wants. I'll give up more about my ability tomorrow then.

And yet tomorrow never came as he flaked. Kast care to share whatever “more” about his ability Shotty mentioned?

ISO 22 – Doesn’t hammer Ythan.
ISO 24 – Believes Ythan’s claim and calls him Town. Say he’ll ISO Robo next.
ISO 25 – Says he targeted Muffin N2.

Reviewing Shotty’s ISO shows a complete lack of scum-hunting. His vote on millar is at best trying to prevent his own possible lynch and at worst bussing while doing so.

His vote on Robo Day 1 was poorly grounded and easily could be scum coordinating for the planned quicklynch of Robo.

Shotty’s play indicating scum is certainly possible.

[Iecerint]

OK, but did you read my post, or did I miss where you responded to it? What do you make of Muffin's claiming he was shot at N2?

[MagnaofIllusion]

OK, but did you read my post, or did I miss where you responded to it? What do you make of Muffin's claiming he was shot at N2?

You are going to have to actually tell me what post you want me to respond to if 1300 isn't it.

[Iecerint]

I'll summarize the relevant bit for you again:

1. Muffin claims someone shot him N2.
2. Shotty/Kast claims he shot Muffin N2.
3. Ythan died N2.

Doesn't this imply that Shotty isn't mafia, unless vig/SK killed Ythan or Muffin/Kast are scum together?

[ReaperCharlie]

The Brave and the Beautiful - Vote Count 4.9

MagnaofIllusion [2] - Kast, Furcolow
Kast [2] - MagnaofIllusion, Muffin
Furcolow [1] - bv310

Not Voting [2] - Iecerint, Kdub


With 7 alive, it is 4 to lynch. The deadline is Tuesday, August 24 at 9:30 pm EDT.

[Kdub]

@ Kdub/bv -- What do you think about what I've pointed out?

It's an interesting point that you bring up, and I've tried to think about the possibilities. Here are possible choices:

1) Kast is SK with "shot" kill flavor
2) Kast is scum with "shot" kill flavor and someone else is SK with "scratched and torn to death" kill flavor
3) Kast is telling the truth and is actually a vig
4) Kast and Muffin are scum and Muffin is lying about being shot at
5) We are looking too much into flavor and Muffin's claim of being shot at doesn't necessarily indicate anything about game actions

Regarding scenarios 1 and 2, while possible, the obvious question is why have there been only three kills in three nights if scum and SK each presumably have a kill per night? Have doctors/roleblockers been making good choices and stopping kills? Scenario 3 is possible. Scenario 4 seems very unlikely, Muffin is probably town regardless of Magna and/or Kast's alignment. Scenario 5, it really boils down to how much we want to try to outguess the mod (a perfectly valid tactic IMO) regarding his flavor text.

Given the questions about 1 and 2, and the unlikeliness of 4, I am starting to consider more strongly that Kast could be telling the truth. I'm still not convinced yet though. Some thoughts:

- Kast and Magna: I think the personal attacks and claims of lying/misreps to discredit each other are less useful to me (and the rest of us) at this point than the objective information in the game. Given the number/detail of claims and night actions so far, things would be easier to sort out if the focus of your argument was on objective and logical inconsistencies in each other's cases rather than having half your posts filled with calling each other liars.
- How about having everybody claim any protective or roleblocking actions on the first three nights? The point would be to figure out how likely the SK scenarios mentioned above are. It wouldn't necessarily compromise these roles since we wouldn't reveal whether we have future protective/roleblocking actions, although there certainly are risks. What do people think?
- If Kast is right about Neto and Magna is the last scum, then Magna should have been responsible for blocking Fur on N2 and Muffin on N3. However, we know that he stole Muffin's ability N2, and bv has claimed that Magna used an ability that confirms him as Rikku on N3. That means that in order for Magna to be scum, he either has to be able to use multiple abilities at the same time, or there has to be another scum out there, right?

[Iecerint]

I agree. Muffin-Kast would require a pretty epic bus. Also, I think there's some evidence that the flavor text has grains of truth in it, based on comparing information from different players.

- I think claiming roleblocks and protections and so forth is a good idea. We've already seen a preponderance of limited abilities claimed, so the risk associated with it is lower than is typical.
- I think you're correct about the last bit, but it was probably unnecessary to point that out. <_<

*Edit*

If Muffin got information that he was shot at, we can probably just ask people whether they got similar flavor. This would give us hypothetical evidence of successful protects without outing anyone.

@ MoI -- Did you get information that you were shot at (or otherwise targeted) N3?
@ all -- Have you received shot-at (or other) flavor yet this game?

(It is possible that failed destruction kills are flavorless.)

[Furcolow]

@MoI: I bet you would be very similar to your teammate millar13 in your flip

Full Name

: the Queen of Blades

Alignment

: Evill

Alias(es)

: formerly known as 'Sarah Louise Kerrigan'

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: I bet you would be very similar to your teammate millar13 in your flip

I see nothing in the rules that prevent the following proposition -

A two month avatar bet between us as follows Furc -

When my alignment is confirmed (be it during play or at the end of the game by RC) if I am revealed as Town I get to choose a site appropriate avatar for you that you must use for two full months.

If I am revealed as Mafia you get to choose a site appropriate avatar for me that I must use for two full months.

Dare to put your money where your mouth is Furc?

@MOD

- if you disapprove of this please indicate so. I see nothing in the rules regarding this sort of situation.

[ReaperCharlie]

Sure, have at it.

[Muffin]

I'll summarize the relevant bit for you again:

1. Muffin claims someone shot him N2.
2. Shotty/Kast claims he shot Muffin N2.
3. Ythan died N2.

Doesn't this imply that Shotty isn't mafia, unless vig/SK killed Ythan or Muffin/Kast are scum together?

You're correct, it implies shotty is not mafia but it doesn't clear him from being SK.

[Furcolow]

of course i'll take your bet
i have nothing to hide

[MagnaofIllusion]

of course i'll take your bet
i have nothing to hide

Done and done. I’ll start picking out appropriate avatars for you soon.

I'll summarize the relevant bit for you again:

1. Muffin claims someone shot him N2.
2. Shotty/Kast claims he shot Muffin N2.
3. Ythan died N2.

Doesn't this imply that Shotty isn't mafia, unless vig/SK killed Ythan or Muffin/Kast are scum together?

Yes, taken at face value all three lead to the conclusion that Kast isn’t Mafia (or Muffin and Kast are Mafia together).

That said I’m having a hard time deciding exactly how much stock to put in the flavor related texts not posted in thread. I fully admit another portion of my reserve is tied to the Kast versus myself slap-fight that has been going on.

That said nothing about those facts together shows that Kast can’t be a Serial Killer. That said I have a hard time believing on exists in this game based on my earlier Role PM analysis.

I agree. Muffin-Kast would require a pretty epic bus. Also, I think there's some evidence that the flavor text has grains of truth in it, based on comparing information from different players.

I doubt they are scum together purely based on Muffin’s Alignment cop ability. If that’s a Mafia power than RC / SaintK are bastards SMILIE

That said I don’t think Muffin-Kast is that epic a bus given that Kast has only voted for me today. It’s easy to sling as much mud as possible on a partner if you never vote for them and set up the perception that if I’m scum Muffin must be Town. Especially in the limited / delayed reveal environment we are in.

If Muffin got information that he was shot at, we can probably just ask people whether they got similar flavor. This would give us hypothetical evidence of successful protects without outing anyone.

@ MoI -- Did you get information that you were shot at (or otherwise targeted) N3?
@ all -- Have you received shot-at (or other) flavor yet this game?

Here is the entirety of my flavor in Night PMs from Reaper.

Night 1 PM 1 – After hearing what Furc claimed to have I decide to swipe from her. After the sun has fallen I sneak into her bunk, pick the lock and search her quarters. As I sneak away with the binoculars I hear her move in her bed, beginning to wake up. I sneak away as fast as I can.

Night 1 PM 2 – No significant flavor. I see that Neto has the ability to GrappleBeam and because she used it on Spyrex I get to know that Spyrex can Hack the Database.

Night 2 PM (only one since I had to send in a generic set of actions as I was V/LA over most of Night) – I put on my best sneaking outfit and return the binocs to Furc’s quarters. I break into Muffin’s room, hoping to find something ‘awesome’. Muffin stirs in her sleep and I pause until she resumes normal breathing. I find a sleek bodysuit in her closet I would love to see her putting on (comment – RC is a perv ). In that pocket I find the IDD.

I leave Muffin’s room and make my way to bv310’s room. As I ponder how to use the IDD I hear footsteps outside bv310’s door. I leap into the closet and wait to see if anyone arrives. After a few minutes I leave the closet and use the IDD on bv310 which returns a green reading of “No Malicious Intent Detected”. I sneak back to my quarters, get naked (again RC you perv) and go to sleep.

Night 3 PM – I sneak to bv310’s room and wake her up.

No indication that any attempt has been made on my life at all.

[Kast]

Really long post...much longer than I realized. Oh well.

@MoI-

Your attempts to twist this argument into my saying that millar wasn’t revealed as scum are ludicrous. I’ve never said he wasn’t.

Either you are doing a terrible job of reading, I am doing a terrible job of presenting, some combination of the two, or one of us is intentionally doing a poor job. I'm not interested in pointless back-and-forth; let's clarify the issue.

Spoiler: Summary from as neutral a PoV as I can present it. If you think it's incorrect, then point out where I'm missing your point.

(1) Kast Asserts: MoI's desire to push through a Kast-lynch without waiting for Neto's flip is probably a result of scum trying to kill the town vig before Neto's impending flip confirms Kast as town.
(2) MoI Asserts: MoI's desire to push through a Kast lynch is purely a result of strongly thinking Kast is scum.
(3) MoI Asserts: Kast expecting Neto to have an impending flip reveals that Kast failed to read the rules properly.
(3.1) Includes a quote with bolded emphasis on *LIMITED* nature of reveals.

Implication is that Neto's affiliation will never be revealed.

(3.2) Implication that Kast is intentionally distorting the rules

presumably by assuming there will be delayed reveals of some sort

.
(4) Kast Disputes (3) by providing Counter-Examples:
(4.1) Emphasis on *DELAYED* nature of reveals.
(4.2) Includes link to Millar13's delayed reveal.
(4.3) Snarky implication that MoI is intentionally distorting the rules by implying there is no reason to expect a delayed reveal of Neto's affiliation.
(5) Kast Discusses Limited/Delayed Reveal with Iecerint
(5.1) Both agree that (3.1) likely refers to the immediate flip upon player death.
(5.2) Both agree the rules indicate it is likely that there will be additional delayed reveals beyond just Millars.
(5.3) Kast lists several possibilities to explain why Millar had a delayed reveal but nobody else has had one yet.
(6) MoI Argues against (4):
(6.1) Premise: The validity of (4) depends on delayed reveal being a mod mechanic.
(6.2) Premise: Millar (lynched D1) had a delayed flip on N3, but Neto (killed N1) did not have a delayed flip on N3 (or D4).
(6.3)

MoI Asserts: (6.2) is inconsistent with a mod mechanic.

(6.4) Conclusion: Unless Kast can provide a plausible explanation for a mod mechanic explaining (6.2), then (4) is invalid.
(7) Kast Answers (6.4) by referencing (5.3)

-I think your attempt to lynch me now is to force through a mislynch before I get confirmed as town. You claim your attempt is simply to lynch suspected scum. We disagree on this.
-You claim that my expectation for Neto to have a delayed flip betrays a failure to read the rules (and potentially an attempt to trick others) is invalid. The rules and mod evidence actually support my expectation.

1. You assertion that my targets are poorly thought out is simply your opinion. Your ‘choices’ of supposed Vig targets are poorly thought out. So you must be scum. See how that works.
2. My claim isn’t unbalanced at all. I’m a two shot Ability Borrower / User. All the ‘rest’ of your evidence of unbalance rests on you throwing other abilities into the fray. Suddenly I'm a Jailkeeper - Roleblocker - Thief all in one.
3. Not sure what the inconsitency is when you don’t even discuss who my distrust is of.

Two thoughts to keep in mind:
-These are a summary of my previous statements. If you did not understand any of them, there is plenty of reasoning, explanation, and clarification behind them that you can go back to read.
-I don't always proof-read, so it is possible I did not express myself as clearly as I should have. I will attempt to clarify anything that was unclear. I will try to keep the clarification brief.
1. Your targets

combined with

your reasons for those targets are inconsistent with your other stated beliefs. Inconsistencies between claimed night choices and in-thread beliefs are a fairly reliable scum-tell indicating a botched false claim. Example: You propose that Fur investigate Shotty to catch a probable liar. However, you yourself do not investigate your suspect Shotty, and instead investigate a player you are not suspicious of.
2.

Spoiler: Your claimed ability has 3 parts:

-Investigate the "Main" ability of a player
-Grant MoI use of that "Main" ability.
-Prevent (role-block) the player from using that "Main" ability.
--You have not explicitly clarified if your ability allows or prevents using non-"Main" abilities. Regardless, it does role-block the player.

If you are concerned with other players misunderstanding, we can easily clear that up. You are not attempting to do so; which indicates that this is not your actual concern.

3. I'm not sure what I was referring to there.

Ask about it

I probably was not specific enough.

SaintK confirmed it would put made no mention of flavor results.

Please ask SaintK or RC about the flavor results.

I’ve bolded the LIKELY for you. So please STOP LYING about what I am saying. I’ve NEVER said Neto’s power would prove he was town.

You are arguing technicalities that are irrelevant to the base point. If you want to blame me for not being specific enough, then ok, I'll admit I could have been a lot more specific with my language. Base point is this:
-It is contradictory to claim that proven abilities has absolutely no bearing on determining a player's alignment (your claim wrt Fur), but to also claim that proven abilities can have a bearing on determining a player's alignment (your claim wrt Neto).

Don't avoid the questions. Explain how it is better to confirm someone you suspect is a townie than to stop your suspected mafia kill while confirming that player as scum.

Don’t you read? I’ve stated I believe the generic Mafia kill is Factional and would not be stolen by my ability. You can argue MOD mechanics all you want but you CAN’T know whether I’m correct or not. Like so many of your other arguments it’s pure supposition on your part.

My questions take your PoV into account. Short version, from your PoV, using your ability on Shotty would have confirmed your suspected scum & potentially stolen the mafia kill

(which you could then use to kill Shotty)

OR prove your top suspect was town and save you from pushing a mislynch.

Spoiler: Long Version

IF:
-The mafia kill is factional
-Factional abilities do not appear to your thief power
-Kast is not mafia with a special kill ability
THEN:
-Investigating Kast will reveal a kill ability if he is a Vig/SK (and block the Vig/SK kill)

IF:
-The mafia kill is factional
-Factional abilities do not appear to your thief power
-Kast is mafia with a special kill ability
THEN:
-Investigating Kast will reveal the special kill ability which will implicate Kast as mafia (and potentially block the mafia kill).

Given, your statements have all come AFTER seeing that Kast kills with the flavor of "Shot", then Kast-mafia would be under the second hypothetical.

Here’s a hint – your opinion is no more valid than anyone else’s.

This is a false statement. Just because people have different opinions about something, does not mean they are all equally valid, nor does it mean that relative valences are indeterminate. I see any indication that you are willing to openly discuss validity of our opinions (at least not until post-game), so we can save that discussion for then.

Spoiler: Some Hypotheticals:

Ex1) Open game setup with a 100% sane cop and no millers or other misinformation roles - Player A claims cop with a guilty investigation on Player B. Player A is lynched and flips cop. Person1's opinion is that Player B should not be lynched. Person2's opinion is that Player B should be lynched. Person1's opinion is objectively wrong and anti-town.
Ex2) Same game setup with 5 players remaining entering Night 7. Player A is a cop with an innocent on Player B. Person1's opinion is that the cop should investigate Player B again. Person2's opinion is that Player A should investigate one of {Player C, Player D, Player E} based on who he suspects the most. Person3's opinion is that Player A should investigate one of {Player C, Player D, Player E} based on who he suspects the least. Person1's opinion is objectively wrong and anti-town. Person2 and Person3 both have opinions that are more valid than Person1; between the Person2 and Person3, Person2's opinion is intuitively more valid, however, a rigorous proof of greater validity is non-trivial. Also, differing boundary conditions for specific situations can shift this (ie. if Player A has a well established history of suspecting innocents, Person3's opinion would be more valid in that subset of cases.

Prove I ignored my top reads.

-You ignored Shotty (your top scum read) and Fur (your second scum read). Instead you investigated players you expressed no suspicion of {Muffin, Neto, BV}.
--Are you disputing that Shotty and Fur were your top two scum reads?
--Are you claiming that any of {Muffin, Neto, BV} were part of your top suspects?

You’ve only asseted that you are correct. Your point with this?

I have explained and provided evidence for my assertions. You have not done the same with yours. You have avoided discussion of my explanations.

I’ve never said kill flavour is meaningless.

You are correct that you never explicitly used those words to state that message. However, arguing a technicality like that is an invalid defense. You have repeatedly tried to claim that kill flavor is not actually a game mechanic tied with the actual kill. You have inconsistently, been forced to admit that kill flavor is tied to the source of the kill.

My night ability lets me target a player with the effect that the player is killed by being shot. Your botched claim about Grapple Beam inherently dismisses the kill flavor as not being a game relevant mechanic, specifically an effect of my ability. Your claim about Grapple Beam is equally invalid as if you claimed that a Name Investigation targeting Neto could copy the Investigation effect but switch the investigation to a generic Affiliation Investigation.

You are arguing that flavor text only viewable by you in a PM is meaningful to the Night’s events while flavor text posted in thread by the Mod is meaningless. Also note that it wasn’t lynch scene flavor but flavor during millar’s scum reveal. Yet another inaccuracy on your part.

You are correct that it was not a lynch scene. Please explain how that is relevant.

(A) The mod tells a player that someone was outside their door in the night.
(B) The mod tells a player that someone tried to kill them in the night.
(C) The mod publicly uses third person plural when referring to the mafia.
To be clear, you do not understand why a player would believe that (A) and (B) are game relevant information but (C) is meaningless flavor. For me, it is so intuitively obvious that I do not believe I have the capability to explain this distinction to you. It is hard for me to believe that you cannot understand this difference, to the point where I doubt you are being honest. @BV/KDub/Iec/Muffin/Fur- do any of you have trouble understanding this difference? If I am alone or in a minority here, I can make an attempt.

I’ve never said ‘Destroyed’ is a generic scum flavor.

And I didn't say you said that. I quoted and linked to where you said "Destroyed" is the generic kill flavor for the game. I did say you probably slipped knowledge that "Destroyed" is the generic scum kill flavor.

I’ve said REPEATEDLY that Destroyed is the generic death flavor

that comes when someone dies when not directly targeted by a kill.

False.

Spoiler: You have repeatedly stated that 'Destroyed' is the generic kill flavor.

It says destroyed (which is the generic flavor) because he died due to Shotty shooting Neto.

Of course the fact that Spyrex died with the generic death flavor is the part you kindly leave out. Not some other specifically identifiable flavor (like ripped to shreds) but the generic flavor used for lynches. The Mafia kill on Neto also affected Spyrex. Spyrex was not directly shot but died because he was affected. The use of the generic kill language (DESTROYED) makes perfect logical sense in this regard. Your assessment that the presentation of kills is therefore wrong is once again flawed logic.

As shown above it makes perfect logical sense that Spyrex would have generic death flavor.

Destroyed is clearly the generic death flavor as shown in the MOD’S PAGE 1 POSTS.

If you can’t understand the eminently logical leap that Destroyed is generic flavour I can’t help you.

Kast is claiming a generic mafia kill flavor that is the same as the lynch flavor. But earlier he’s argued that each Mafian should have their own kill flavor. He also argued that the flavor written by the Mod is rich and that Mod would not make the mistake of duplicating flavor

I’ve stated I believe the generic Mafia kill is Factional and would not be stolen by my ability. You can argue MOD mechanics all you want but you CAN’T know whether I’m correct or not.

You are assuming there is generic kill flavour for the Mafia. Please indicate how this makes any logic sense in that we have kills flavors of Shot (Neto) and Scratched and Torn (Ythan).

Neto was not killed by mafia. Neto was killed by town Vig. Spyrex was the obvious mafia kill and

did

die by the presumed generic kill flavor. Ythan was obviously not killed by the generic mafia kill, but rather a specialized mafia kill (offhand, I'd guess scratched and torn to pieces reflects a specialized janitor ability). With the exception of my janitor speculation, all of this has already been stated.

No my post clearly assumes his second ability is a Hider. I know you must be aware of that role.

Actually, I've never played with or encountered a Hider role before. Thank you for expanding my repertoire.

@MoI, post 1305-
1.1. I have outstanding questions to BV regarding his assessment of you as Rikku. I'm sorry if you don't think that is addressing this point; I can't do much more. I also believe that RC is entirely capable of crafting a mafia role out of a standard protagonist OR providing a safe claim that makes sense and is compatible with the actual scum role (you can replace role with abilities).
1.2. My assertion regarding your claimed Grapple Beam and the mod provided Kill Flavor of Spyrex death has nothing to do with outguessing the mod. If you claimed Grapple Beam changes a targets name to "AppleBee" but claimed target's name did not change to "AppleBee", then it is not outguessing the mod to assume the mod's failure to conform to the claimed ability is indication that the person claiming the ability is a liar.
1.3. Mislynching the inactive town vigilante before he can be confirmed is one reason for you to come forth, especially if you have no idea who he will target (and did not know he was out of kills) and he already killed your buddy who nobody else suspected. Getting momentum against the rolecop who is publicly suspicious of you is another good reason for your gambit. The simple fact that the majority of town already blindly trusts you so you can already get away with almost anything is another possible motivation.

I don't know why you ask for these since I'm sure you will simply dismiss them as "suppositions". Guessing the motivation of scum is always, inherently *GUESSING*.

2. and 3. are not damning in and of themselves. What you addressed is also only half of each issue. The inconsistency between the reasons for those targets and your in-thread beliefs makes all of the targeting more suspicious.

Furthermore let’s quickly glance at what he isn’t addressing –

Voting records. Not a single mention is made of my vote for millar made early in Day 1 that I kept on him the entire day.

-Did you mean to include more? Sounds possible, but ambiguous. Please add the other things I'm not addressing if you had others in mind.
-Your vote for millar is probably a bus. Millar is a weak player, he's perfect as a sacrificial mafian.

@MoI's attacks on Shotty-
Are you expecting me to defend Shotty's play and/or comment on your thoughts? For now I'm ignoring that section and assuming it's simply meant to convince others and attack me for things I can't defend. (Is it scumtastic when MoI attacks someone who is not here, or does that only apply when Kast does it?)

@KDub/Iec-
-I've claimed all the information (including flavor) that I've received.

@Fur-
MoI is clearly stating that when he gets lynched, town will not see anything other than a name. We would not have immediate information from his flip with which to gauge Muffin's affiliation.

@MoI-

I also have some idea why someone was sleeping in Shotty’s doorway Night 2.

Please explain this.

[Kast]

@MoI/Muffin-
-What do you think about Shotty-SK claiming that he has no more kills?

[Furcolow]

Don't spend too much time on it, because I am honestly town aligned

[Iecerint]

That said I don’t think Muffin-Kast is that epic a bus given that Kast has only voted for me today. It’s easy to sling as much mud as possible on a partner if you never vote for them and set up the perception that if I’m scum Muffin must be Town. Especially in the limited / delayed reveal environment we are in.

Huh? Muffin's been voting Kast on your team for ages. That's what I'm referring to.

My flavor is incoming:

[Iecerint]

After N1 (tracking Ythan):

I don't sense anything is wrong even though I watch Ythan's spot. I feel sleepy and bored afterwards (99% just flavor).

After N2 (watching MoI):

I first hang out for a bit before heading to MoI's spot. When I get there, I find that she's not there. I'm kinda WTF but I decide to hang out just in case someone shows up. I hide myself in PLOT DEVICE so that I can't be seen (I think this is just flavor) and rest. The PLOT DEVICE works such that I'll wake up if anyone comes in or whatever.

Hours later MoI comes back, and that's all that woke me up. Then I go back home.

There's one more paragraph, but it would reveal my rolename, so ye know.

After N3 (protecting MoI):

I just got a link to the game and an indication that something "unusual" had happened. RC also included what appears to be a reference to Gears of War, though I don't play FPS's so I can't say for sure. The "unusual" bit sort-of implied that I'd been successful while the GoW quote implied that lots of people had died; they may've just been typed that way to fool with me.

So no kill attempts.

[Iecerint]

Is this what happened N1?

SCUM KILLS SX.
NETO HIDES SX BEHIND HIMSELF.
SCUM KILL FAILS.
KAST KILLS NETO.
KAST INDIRECTLY KILLS SX (HIDING BEHIND NETO).

If so, it means that Neto pretty much can't have been scum unless MoI is lying about his abilities (which I mean).

[Kast]

@Iec-
If MoI is telling the truth about Grapple Beam, then Neto pretty much cannot be scum.

I don't think MoI is telling the truth about Grapple Beam; it would mean he was both careless and taking extreme liberties with his description. Neither of those fit the rest of his playstyle.