Mini 1026 - Ohne Mafia (Game Over!)

[archaebob]

FoS:

Boberz for checking the forum and not posting

If this is a serious fos, then why are you keeping your random vote?

[boberz]

Care to explain?

[boberz]

vote: boberz

As far as I'm concerned, this dandelion here is already obvscum.

The care to explain was aimed at this btw.

If this was just random I would like you to explain why you thought this necessary.

[Tasky]

Also why did you random vote when there was already a serious vote on the table and there were atleast three others taking the game seriously already?

which is the serious vote you see here... I see just RV'S...
getting paranoiac already?
VOTE: boberz

[NicolBolas]

confirm.

All answer please (My answers will follow)...

What is everyone's opinions on lurkers?

-They suck

Have you heard of Andy Burnham?

no

How do you plan to find scum?

By asking questions and attacking odd things i see

How would you describe your playing style?

Lots of questions until i find someone scummy, then i take that person down

How much mafia have you played?

Not enough

AS other people have said, i really dislike the question "How do you plan to find scum?". This makes it look like you are trying to see what is scummy to others and avoid it. Defense please.

[boberz]

Erm, we should all be avoiding what other people think is scummy first of all. But the idea was to put emphasis in everybody's mind on scumhunting, too many day 1s are random votes followed by two wagons one of which ends up in a mislynch. Crap. So I was doing something different, ie get everyone to think about how they scumhunt. I am not going into what I read into the various responses before everyone has done it, neither am I providing my answers until others have because of the risk of scum just trying to latch on to what I am looking for.

Note, the only person to actually explain what was scummy about that question is me. NB just rewrote what I said about it. This is a massive fallacy I expect everyone to understand. Everybody should be trying to look town, and town should be looking for scum.

---

@Tasky, my original draft had semi-serious written on it, which I ammended. But Moose's vote looks atleast semi-serious if not serious. But the rest of my point stands Tasky (and anyone else who has random voted, or intends to) why? Stuff was there to comment on, my (alledged) rogue question for example. Why random vote? No reason whatsoever, just delaying discussion.

[NicolBolas]

@Boberz- your response is good.

[boberz]

@Boberz- your response is good.

Thank you. You said you were going to ask people questions to see who is scummy, what is your first question and who to?

[NicolBolas]

I already did. I asked for your defense, and you gave it.

I havent seen anything else recently that merits a question. But, dont worry, because something will come up soon.

[foilist13]

1) I'm not answering questions.

2)

vote: boberz

for being so damn nervous.

[boberz]

Nerves scummy why??? But I am not particularly nervous more frustrated. I give you credit for actually making a case though.

Why are you not answering the questions?

Do you have a better way to start the game?

[NicolBolas]

@foil- why no answers? What harm do you feel they can cause?

[Hrezs]

Vote: Boberz

dislike RQS and don't like this reply

Nerves scummy why??? But I am not particularly nervous more frustrated. I give you credit for actually making a case though.

Why are you not answering the questions?

Do you have a better way to start the game?

seems very panicy

[archaebob]

Why Boberz is Scum

What? That has to be one of the most obvious questions in the world. Classic random question to kick things off. Atleast explain what I have actually done wrong.

Presumably you are accusing me of fishing for how to play scum. But if you think about it that would be a very strange thing for me to ask as it makes everyone think about how they are chasing scum and makes them more likely to do it. So try again moose.

Meanwhile, please answer the questiond.

@ everyone - This above quote is what you call a textbook scum-tell. Here's why:

1)

Overreaction

- The entire post above was given as a response to a one line post by moose, which contained nothing more than a vote. While the format of moose's post does seem to imply some actual suspicion with regards to boberz's proposed RQ list, it would seem to any calm and collected town player more as a light toss of suspicion intended to start discussion than a serious, impassioned accusation. Boberz, however, seems to have interpreted this as an all out attack, and responds with a great deal of indignation and surprise. What this shows is that boberz is nervous as hell; he is playing perpetually on the edge of his seat, and is hairtrigger sensitive to anyone who looks at him with scrutiny. This type of jitteriness this early in the game is much more characteristic of a scum mindset than a town one.

2)

Desperately Overdefensive

- Not only does boberz overreact here, he also attempts to remove all conceivable suspicion from himself in the most panic-stricken way possible. This indicates a mindset that prioritizes saving its own hide over scumhunting. Let's look at this first part of this quote:

"What? That has to be one of the most obvious questions in the world. Classic random question to kick things off. Atleast explain what I have actually done wrong."

The main problem with this quote is its tone. Boberz is writing with a tone of desperation that reminds me more of someone guilty who fears he may have been caught than someone innocent who feels they have been unjustly accused. In case you were wondering, the way you tell the difference between the two lies with the teeth. This quote has no teeth. It has no hint of distrust or combativeness in it whatsoever. If boberz were a town player who did not already know moose's alignment, his prime incentive would be to gather information that would help him figure out if moose was scum or not. Instead, his main priority is to figure out "what I have actually done wrong." Boberz accepts too readily that might have done anything wrong to begin with, and rolls over in conciliatory panic at the first vote of the day.

Let's look at the second quote from this post:

"Presumably you are accusing me of fishing for how to play scum. But if you think about it that would be a very strange thing for me to ask as it makes everyone think about how they are chasing scum and makes them more likely to do it. So try again moose."

Here, he presumes the reasoning behind his adversary's attack, instead of trying to figure out what it actually was. You can almost hear his mind audibly racing here, going through all the various possibilities of where he might have slipped up, and trying to come up with plausible excuses for them. "You probably think this, but if THAT's what you think, here's the explanation I've already come up with for it that should exonerate me." This guy is so jittery, he already has his alibi worked out before moose has even made a serious case. Now what kind of role in this game needs to have fabricated alibis for everything?

Then the very last line is an edgy little insert designed to simulate the sort of teeth I was talking about earlier. It doesn't work though. The line "so try again moose" sounds too contrived and deliberate; it's incongruous with the tone of the rest of his post. This is a common scum tactic: to put out a hard edge against your attacker to make it seem like you are confident in your innocence. Unfortunately for boberz, the rest of his post has already betrayed how entirely unconfident he is, and his last ditch attempt to fabricate this feeling simply comes off sounding fake.

3)

His defense is WIFOM, and makes no sense

-

Let's look closer here,

"Presumably you are accusing me of fishing for how to play scum.

But if you think about it that would be a very strange thing for me to ask as it makes everyone think about how they are chasing scum and makes them more likely to do it.

So try again moose."

Boberz's defense is essentially this:

"There is NO WAY I'm scum, because scum would never say what I just said. You see? Did you catch that? I asked players how they intend to catch scum. This is probably going to

remind

them about how they want to catch scum, because they'll have to think about it to answer my question. And because I've reminded them of their scum-hunting strategy, they'll be more likely to actually use it to find scum. This is good for the town! So, basically, there's no way I can be scum because why would scum want to do something that helps town?"

This defense is riddled with problems, the most glaring that it is entirely WIFOM. Scum

constantly

do things that "help town", especially things like asking superficially useful questions. They do this because

scum are trying to appear like town themselves

. And there is no better way to appear like town than doing things that are supposedly helpful to the town. Boberz knew this to be true, and that is why he already had this whole explanation for his actions worked out this early in the game. "C'mon guys! I'm helping town! Why would scum help town?" This is wifom, because scum do townish things to look like town themselves

all the time.

The second big problem with this defense is that it

doesn't make sense. Let's think about this. Does asking players how they scumhunt

really

help the town scumhunt by

reminding

them of their strategy?

um...no...not really

Now, I'm not going to say there's no truth to it whatsoever, but it's positive impact on the town's success is negligible at best. And without a doubt, asking players how they scumhunt is VERY helpful to the scum, who, by knowing the strategies of the town, can more easily subsist in the cracks of people's scum-hunting strategies.

It is for the above reasons that I consider boberz to be the scummiest player in the game right now, and why I expect to see more votes on him in the immediate future.

[archaebob]

EBWOP: Italics got a little screwed up towards the end there...lol.

"The second big problem with this defense is that it

doesn't make sense.

Let's think about this. Does asking players how they scum hunt

really

help the town scumhunt by

reminding

them of their strategy?"

[NicolBolas]

@arachebob- that's a great case. I don't have much to add, but I want to hear what he has in his own defense.

vote boberz

[FEMM the Attorney]

confirm.

All answer please (My answers will follow)...

What is everyone's opinions on lurkers?
Have you heard of Andy Burnham?
How do you plan to find scum?
How would you describe your playing style?
How much mafia have you played?

1. They slow down the game.
2. No.
3. By hunting them down with my scumhunting raygun of doom.
Not answering the rest. The questions seem pretty helpful to scum, though.
Why so paranoid, boberz? Seems fishy to act so defensive so early in the game.
... And like archeabob's ninja post states, I do agree that boberz is looking pretty scummy right now.

[FEMM the Attorney]

NicolBolas, you just flip-flopped from being suspicious of boberz, to liking his defense, then seeing archeabob's case and placing a vote...

[boberz]

Why do you dislike RQS?

What about it seems panicy?

Tbh it looks like RQS is failing but I intend to battle on anyway. It is certainly better than RVS.

What interests me is that atleast two people have turned up to say they dont like RQS, offer no alternative and make a criticism of me

coincidentally

the person who instigated the RQS they dislike. It is just getting stupid really.

It seems very pat that Nb, Hresz and foilist all thought I felt scummy for the same reason based on me sounding/feeling nervous/panicy. It is not something that can be proved but something that can easily be accepted as a conventional wisdom within the game. So purely on a bandwagon analysis I expect one to be scum, the later on the wagon the more scummy in this instance.

I am still interested how panicy/nervous is actually a scum tell. I would expect any mafia player to be a bit nervous if attacked by so many people in the first couple of pages. But I

did

do not feel particularly nervous now more intrigued with what is going on.

---

Still waiting on an answer re the random votes!

---
Just seen a load more posts. NB, second time you have changed your mind on me already, not looking good for you.

Full response to the crosspost accusation in a sec.

[NicolBolas]

I did not change my mind on you. I liked your response to my question. What arachebob posted concerns another issue- your attuide in this game.

[FEMM the Attorney]

Boberz, you said you would post answers to your own questions. Where are they?
The issue is, the questions aren't very helpful to town. Why on earth would you reveal your scuhunting tactic to everyone including scum? Obviously the scum will now what to avoid then.
Secondly, If a townie were to be attacked this early there wouldn't be too much need to panic. If scum were to be attacked, there would be much need for panic, since it is so early in the game and they didn't even gt much of a chance to play yet.

[moose200x]

WoW, this game is going to be fun!

Nicol- you flip floped. Why?

Archaebob- You are 100% right in your argument. There was nothing you said I disagreed with in regards to boberz.

I am still interested how panicy/nervous is actually a scum tell.

You're driving home one night after smoking a fat blunt. The blue lights flash in your mirror. You stuff your bag under the seat and roll down the window. The cop says "Please step out of the car sir" You are now nervous.

Same situation but you don't have drugs on you nor have you smoked in the past week. When the cop says "Please step out of the car sir" You smile say "yes sir" and have no real nervous thoughts.

[NicolBolas]

Moose- I answered in my previous post. Not good enough for you?

[moose200x]

I didn't see your last post.

Do you tend to flip flop alot? Are always looking to join a bandwagon?

[NicolBolas]

My point is that I did not flip flop.

I join bandwaagons if I feel that they have a valid premise.