Mini 1000: The Brave and the Beautiful (Game Over)

[Iecerint]

Well, we know he didn't have the PM until a couple hours before his big post, but after his first one, so it would've been relatively reliable this time around. In the general case, yeah, it wouldn't 100% rule in or out anything (unless he messed up a fakeclaim), but it never hurts.

[Furcolow]

I was the target of MoI's second ability. He is who he says he is, and I doubt he is scum as such. I don't want to reveal too much more, but I will if everybody wants me to, or if he wants me to.

So, when we lynch him, and he's red, what will you have to say then?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So, when we lynch him, and he's red, what will you have to say then?

I love the faux braverly Furc. You almost sound like someone with actual game ability.

A large post will be coming in the next 2 hours or so but suffice it to say I'm not getting lynched. Scum, namely Kast, will be today's lynch.

[Iecerint]

I'm excited.

[bv310]

Furc, I'll probably say something along the lines of "Shit son, the mod done goofed".

[MagnaofIllusion]

General responses to Kast and Analysis of his Post –

Kast attempting to paint Neto as a killed Mafia is classic scummy play in a no-reveal environment. Let’s look at the components of his attacks –

D1 case on Robo was complete BS. Major +scum on Netopalis for excessive misrepresentation. In general, the irrational but very opportunistic attacks on Robo sound like scum looking for an excuse. This fits well if he expected his buddy to deal a finishing blow and end the day early.

Robo’s paranoid and anti-Town response to Neto’s RQS questions warranted the pressure he received.

Please show how your slot’s vote (2nd) or Furc’s vote (4th) on Robo were anything but opportunistic. Because selectively attempting to smear Neto in the manner you are doing while ignoring Furc and Shotty’s reasoning is scumtastic.

For your reminder - here are the ‘support’ for those votes

Guilty people are paranoid, innocents have nothing to fear.

Unvote vote robo

this game is getting on my nerves
i attribute it to robocopter, who always manages to get on my nerves
i am wanting a more fun game
##vote robocopter87

I await how you explain these as less opportunistic and more well reasoned that Neto’s vote.

Disagree with the vote analysis. Timing indicates Millar was waiting for someone to place an "effective" L-1 so he could "hammer". If there's a buddy helping him, Neto's vote is the most probable one.

If you can’t provide any reasons why Neto’s vote is the ‘most probable’ one then this is pure scumtastic conjecture. Your slot’s vote (2nd) or Furc’s vote (4th) can just as easily be scum assist votes.

Also, if you reasoning regarding why Neto was millar’s buddy involves the tired 3rd on the wagon Wiki-tell please don’t bother.

@Neto-
I bet you're hating having Millar as a buddy.

Look it’s Stretch Armstrong. This is so weak no other comment needs to be made.

Preview Edit:
I thought Muffin was the last scum for most of my re-read. If MoI is scum, Muffin is almost definitely town.

If, as you assert, RC is infallible regarding flavor (which you do while attacking me on the Grapple Beam) please share your insights on the following MOD text -

But some of you were shedding crocodile tears.

This clearly indicates that there are more than 1 scum alive. Do you believe there was a 4-man original scum team in a no-reveal game? Do you believe there is a Serial Killer?

@N2,N3,D4-
No deaths is great, except that Muffin should have died.

Again, jailkeeper possibility rises, but the flavor claim that it was passively self hiding (as opposed to someone pushing her into a closet) makes it odd.

Nice pointless first statement. Of course the lack of deaths N3 is nice. I think you would be too much a veteran to pull a variation on the tired ‘Congratulate the Doc’ tell. And there was of course a death N2 – Ythan.

Another possibility regarding Muffin’s survival, of course, is that you are scum. That also quite handily explains why Muffin didn’t die. You partner was busy killing Ythan.

More interesting comments regarding bussing / distancing from Kast –

Furcolow's hammer, despite not waiting for a claim, is indicative of town if anything.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Muffin's early vote and later justification of that vote sounds like a bus. The confidence in his attacks immediately after the ZR is striking and (imo) telling.[//quote]

Compare these two statements. Muffin make consistent attacks on millar during the Day. Furc’s hammer came as multiple other players (Kdub and Ythan) had expressed previous interest in voting, and thus hammering, millar. This argument is quite frankly ludicrous.

If anyone was bussing it was Furc.

Scumtastic logic from Kast regarding myself –

Based on MoI's claim about Grapple Beam providing targetting immunity and copying effects to the target, BUT having the result that Neto and Spyrex died in DIFFERENT manners, conclusion is that MoI is lying about the Grapple Beam.

Of course the fact that Spyrex died with the generic death flavor is the part you kindly leave out. Not some other specifically identifiable flavor (like ripped to shreds) but the generic flavor used for lynches. The Mafia kill on Neto also affected Spyrex. Spyrex was not directly shot but died because he was affected. The use of the generic kill language (DESTROYED) makes perfect logical sense in this regard. Your assessment that the presentation of kills is therefore wrong is once again flawed logic.

– MagnaofIllusion: The claim about the Grapple Beam has a hole. There's no way RC would make a kill flavor mistake; if you've played with him or even just looking at the rich flavor in this game, it's

clear that an ability as MoI claimed would copy the kill AND it's kill flavor.

As shown above it makes perfect logical sense that Spyrex would have generic death flavor. Your attempt to assert how game mechanics work is again scumtastic. How is it 'clear' as to how the MOD would present information?

For that matter, Grapple Beam sounds like a scum ability; he can protect a suspected buddy from investigations (and anything else) or make himself investigate as innocent (as his target).

1. The Grapple Beam prevents the Target from being directly targeted.
2. The Grapple Beam causes any ability that affects the User to also affect the Target.

Your assessment that it would prevent Neto from investigating as scum if he used it on an innocent is horribly scumtastic. If Neto used Grapple Beam on an Innocent and he was scanned the Investigative role would get a scan both on Neto and the target. Nowhere in my information dump did I claim it replaced the effects on Neto with the effects on the target. So all you are doing here is attempting to further smear Neto after the fact.

And please explain why a modified Hider mechanic sounds like a scum ability in light of the fact that you butchered the mechanics as shown above.

From redundancy perspective, Fur is essentially a confirmed role cop, MoI's claim is essentially a role cop + blocker + gets to use the person's ability. Balance issues much?

The error in logic here is that Kast is approaching Furc as confirmed Town. It’s not a balance issue if, as I’ve said before, Furc is Scum Role-cop.

This is a bit hard to believe. If true, then you had no reason not to get suspected mafia-Shotty lynched. Conversely, if you are mafia this makes perfect sense as you identify the vig, setup for a future mislynch, and find out who the vig suspects so you know whether you have to worry about him or not.

And if true my plan Day 2 was exactly that … the next step in getting more information on a suspected Mafian. Are you suggesting that I should have immediately tried to lynch Shotty without using the tools at my disposal to attempt to also investigate Furc?

The rest of your statement is simply WIFOM. Nice attempt to cloud the waters.

Confirm Vote – Kast

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP for readability

General responses to Kast and Analysis of his Post –

Kast attempting to paint Neto as a killed Mafia is classic scummy play in a no-reveal environment. Let’s look at the components of his attacks –

D1 case on Robo was complete BS. Major +scum on Netopalis for excessive misrepresentation. In general, the irrational but very opportunistic attacks on Robo sound like scum looking for an excuse. This fits well if he expected his buddy to deal a finishing blow and end the day early.

Robo’s paranoid and anti-Town response to Neto’s RQS questions warranted the pressure he received.

Please show how your slot’s vote (2nd) or Furc’s vote (4th) on Robo were anything but opportunistic. Because selectively attempting to smear Neto in the manner you are doing while ignoring Furc and Shotty’s reasoning is scumtastic.

For your reminder - here are the ‘support’ for those votes

Guilty people are paranoid, innocents have nothing to fear.

Unvote vote robo

this game is getting on my nerves
i attribute it to robocopter, who always manages to get on my nerves
i am wanting a more fun game
##vote robocopter87

I await how you explain these as less opportunistic and more well reasoned that Neto’s vote.

Disagree with the vote analysis. Timing indicates Millar was waiting for someone to place an "effective" L-1 so he could "hammer". If there's a buddy helping him, Neto's vote is the most probable one.

If you can’t provide any reasons why Neto’s vote is the ‘most probable’ one then this is pure scumtastic conjecture. Your slot’s vote (2nd) or Furc’s vote (4th) can just as easily be scum assist votes.

Also, if you reasoning regarding why Neto was millar’s buddy involves the tired 3rd on the wagon Wiki-tell please don’t bother.

@Neto-
I bet you're hating having Millar as a buddy.

Look it’s Stretch Armstrong. This is so weak no other comment needs to be made.

Preview Edit:
I thought Muffin was the last scum for most of my re-read. If MoI is scum, Muffin is almost definitely town.

If, as you assert, RC is infallible regarding flavor (which you do while attacking me on the Grapple Beam) and that Neto was scum with millar please share your insights on the following MOD text -

But some of you were shedding crocodile tears.

This clearly indicates that there are more than 1 scum alive. Do you believe there was a 4-man original scum team in a no-reveal game? Do you believe there is a Serial Killer?

@N2,N3,D4-
No deaths is great, except that Muffin should have died.

Again, jailkeeper possibility rises, but the flavor claim that it was passively self hiding (as opposed to someone pushing her into a closet) makes it odd.

Nice pointless first statement. Of course the lack of deaths N3 is nice. I think you would be too much a veteran to pull a variation on the tired ‘Congratulate the Doc’ tell. And there was of course a death N2 – Ythan.

Another possibility regarding Muffin’s survival, of course, is that you are scum. That also quite handily explains why Muffin didn’t die. You partner was busy killing Ythan.

More interesting comments regarding bussing / distancing from Kast –

Furcolow's hammer, despite not waiting for a claim, is indicative of town if anything.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Muffin's early vote and later justification of that vote sounds like a bus. The confidence in his attacks immediately after the ZR is striking and (imo) telling.

Compare these two statements. Muffin make consistent attacks on millar during the Day. Furc’s hammer came as multiple other players (Kdub and Ythan) had expressed previous interest in voting, and thus hammering, millar. This argument is quite frankly ludicrous.

If anyone was bussing it was Furc.

Scumtastic logic from Kast regarding myself –

Based on MoI's claim about Grapple Beam providing targetting immunity and copying effects to the target, BUT having the result that Neto and Spyrex died in DIFFERENT manners, conclusion is that MoI is lying about the Grapple Beam.

Of course the fact that Spyrex died with the generic death flavor is the part you kindly leave out. Not some other specifically identifiable flavor (like ripped to shreds) but the generic flavor used for lynches. The Mafia kill on Neto also affected Spyrex. Spyrex was not directly shot but died because he was affected. The use of the generic kill language (DESTROYED) makes perfect logical sense in this regard. Your assessment that the presentation of kills is therefore wrong is once again flawed logic.

– MagnaofIllusion: The claim about the Grapple Beam has a hole. There's no way RC would make a kill flavor mistake; if you've played with him or even just looking at the rich flavor in this game, it's clear that an ability as MoI claimed would copy the kill AND it's kill flavor.

As shown above it makes perfect logical sense that Spyrex would have generic death flavor. Your attempt to assert how game mechanics work is again scumtastic. How is it 'clear' as to how the MOD would present information?

For that matter, Grapple Beam sounds like a scum ability; he can protect a suspected buddy from investigations (and anything else) or make himself investigate as innocent (as his target).

1. The Grapple Beam prevents the Target from being directly targeted.
2. The Grapple Beam causes any ability that affects the User to also affect the Target.

Your assessment that it would prevent Neto from investigating as scum if he used it on an innocent is horribly scumtastic. If Neto used Grapple Beam on an Innocent and he was scanned the Investigative role would get a scan both on Neto and the target. Nowhere in my information dump did I claim it replaced the effects on Neto with the effects on the target. So all you are doing here is attempting to further smear Neto after the fact.

And please explain why a modified Hider mechanic sounds like a scum ability in light of the fact that you butchered the mechanics as shown above.

From redundancy perspective, Fur is essentially a confirmed role cop, MoI's claim is essentially a role cop + blocker + gets to use theperson's ability. Balance issues much?

The error in logic here is that Kast is approaching Furc as confirmed Town. It’s not a balance issue if, as I’ve said before, Furc is Scum Role-cop.

This is a bit hard to believe. If true, then you had no reason not to get suspected mafia-Shotty lynched. Conversely, if you are mafia this makes perfect sense as you identify the vig, setup for a future mislynch, and find out who the vig suspects so you know whether you have to worry about him or not.

And if true the plan I suggested Day 2 was exactly that … the next step in getting more information on a suspected Mafian. Are you suggesting that I should have immediately tried to lynch Shotty without using the tools at my disposal to attempt to also investigate Furc?

The rest of your statement is simply WIFOM. Nice attempt to cloud the waters.

Confirm Vote – Kast

[Muffin]

I'd like to hear back from Kast before responding to MoI's big post

[Muffin]

Whoa.... hang on a minute.

I have a strong scum read on Muffin, but a blatant cop claim is...not something that should be lynched

I agree with Shotty's target choices, and, until hearing MoI's claim, Muffin would have been my top suspect for today

So, you say I shouldn't have been lynched D2 after claiming, but you agree with Shotty's target choices (i.e. killing me, immediately after having claimed cop?)

vote Kast

[ReaperCharlie]

The Brave and the Beautiful - Vote Count 4.7

MagnaofIllusion [2] - Kast, Furcolow
Kast [2] - MagnaofIllusion, Muffin
Furcolow [1] - bv310

Not Voting [2] - Iecerint, Kdub


With 7 alive, it is 4 to lynch. The deadline is Tuesday, August 24 at 9:30 pm EDT.

[Kdub]

Magna, can you respond to the second paragraph of my post 1211? I like the rest of your response to Kast, but based on what you said earlier about Neto's ability, I think he does have a point about the kill flavor.

Should we continue with the name claim, or wait for Kast to respond first?

[Iecerint]

^ I think he pretty much responded to that, if indirectly. He speculated that flavor for grapple'd deaths is made vanilla, hence the other kill matching the lynch flavor.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In response to your request.

As the different death flavors, I guess you do have a point. Now that I look back at his exact words, Magna described the grapple beam as "Any abilities used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target". Taken literally, that means that your kill ability would also be used on Spyrex, and thus the kill flavor should also be "shot". I still think his claim is detailed enough that it seems legit, but it's worth asking further questions at least. Magna, any response to Kast's point about the kill flavors?

I think the following highlights my thoughts on the issue –

Of course the fact that Spyrex died with the generic death flavor is the part you kindly leave out. Not some other specifically identifiable flavor (like ripped to shreds) but the generic flavor used for lynches. The Mafia kill on Neto also affected Spyrex. Spyrex was not directly shot but died because he was affected. The use of the generic kill language (DESTROYED) makes perfect logical sense in this regard. Your assessment that the presentation of kills is therefore wrong is once again flawed logic.

I see no inconsistency in my statements and this explanation. The effect of the ability does not automatically mean that the flavor of the ability must be duplicated. Nightkills are the only ability that inherently has any flavor. Keep in mind that I paraphrased the information that Mod provided to me. The phrase “Any ability used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target” is not a direct quote from the Mod.

[Kast]

@Iec-
-Not sure why it matters what I think about claim order; MoI is obv-scum from his lie about N1.
-Post-game, you should seriously rethink your response to replacement players. Claiming that a mod confirmed replacement who hasn't even received a role is scummy for waiting to receive his role before confirming that role is absolutely ridiculous. It's also just plain terrible play for a townie to replace in and immediately claim without reading or catching up. That said, I don't get any scummy reads from your reaction; it reads like you just aren't looking at things from an objective PoV and probably don't have much experience with an appropriate handling of such a situation.

@Iec/BV-
BV: To be clear, you are claiming MoI used his second ability (N3) on you and it confirms him as town to you. Is this correct? If it does not actually confirm MoI, then please clarify. Regardless, please share your thoughts on the discrepancy I raised.
Iec: Correct and agreed. However, if your post is a response to BV, then you might want to reread BV's post; he isn't referring to the Thief ability.

@Muffin-
You should read all posts in context. You do it in some instances but ignore that where it suits; you can probably improve your game with more consistency.
-Your attack on millar is entirely consistent with a bus. It isn't "reaching" or "grasping". Telling us you would do something different if you were scum is an invalid defense.
-Agreed that you only found Ythan scummy after the interplay. That's what I called you out for (lulz). You went from almost no comment to suddenly finding every single post from Ythan to be lacking and/or indicative of him being scum. It's obviously a case of forcing an interpretation to fit your suspicion; INSTEAD OF forming a conclusion based on the evidence. If you really took so much issue with Ythan's posts, then it makes no sense that you would say absolutely NOTHING about it prior to your decision that he was scum.
--And lol at weak straw man. I posted my thoughts of Ythan; he is not a logical/rational player, and he resorts to emotion and personal attacks for pushing his cases. He is not very effective at scumhunting; I explicitly agreed with you about that (you even quoted it ). That does not show him to be scum. Do you expect irrational/constant appeal to emotion/constant ad hom players to be good at scum hunting? I don't (it would be nice if they turned out to be) and certainly didn't expect anything from Ythan.
-Read more carefully.
--I never stated that your play being consistent with scum play means you are scum. Showing that something is not a reason to dismiss a possibility does not mean it is a proof of that possibility. Logic fail.
--Pay attention to context. Regardless, you have not been the most clear. To be clear, the flavor of your investigation ability was not originally tied to the IDD; on night 2 you were informed of the IDD being gone as part of the flavor for not being able to investigate. Is that correct, and if not, please elaborate. Ultimately, the point of the question is to gauge whether MoI's claim is consistent with what you know. Is it or is it not?
--I don't think you are scum now. Pay attention. You'll seriously improve your game if you realize that conclusions should be formed

based on evidence

instead of evidence interpreted

based on preconceptions

. If you read through a game and a player has 5 notable events, 4 of which indicate probable scum, but 1 of which proves the player is not scum, the rational (read=correct) move is to conclude the player is NOT scum. Conversely, if a player is acting in an entirely pro-town manner, but has an objective contradiction that shows they are lying scum, then the right thing to do is lynch the scum.

@MoI-
Given that rules state this is a Limited/

Delayed

reveal game and we have already seen that the delayed reveal shows true affiliation, your argument holds no merit. The attempt to lynch me is an obvious attempt to get rid of the vig before we see Neto's flip.
-Explain why you targeted Neto.
-Explain why you chose to steal/block a cop instead of block/confirming someone you claim to strongly believe was scum.
-Neto and Fur have clear differences in playstyle. Neto's votes are inconsistent with his claims to be a logical player and actual play which showed more rational capabilities outside of his single-minded and opportunistic ones.
-It's straight forward vote analysis. Just because you can't understand it doesn't make that a valid dismissal. You can tell us you don't understand how 1 + 1 = 2, but that doesn't make it any less true.
-Claiming mod flavor indicates number of remaining scum is ridiculous. Kill flavor is a GAME MECHANIC, not meaningless flavor. You are reaching.
-Your claim that "destroyed" is "generic kill flavor" likely betrays inside knowledge on scum kill method. Nothing indicates this anywhere else or in any way. It also goes against your initial claim of abilities being copied on the grapple beam target.
--Your claiming that the grapple beam doesn't actually copy abilities and you were just paraphrasing is an obvious revision after having your botched false claim pointed out.

@Muffin-
You realize a vig kill is different from a lynch yes? Early game, town shouldn't lynch claimed cops (or claimed docs); especially not on D1. Allowing that provides scum with excuses for engaging in and encouraging bad game play.
Vigs should absolutely kill their top suspects, even more so if it's a target the town as a whole is unlikely to lynch.

[Kast]

There is something else I want to share, but going to wait on ok from RC whether I am allowed to share this.

[Kast]

Ok, so RC didn't initially give me the actual PMs between himself and Shotty. I asked for those and just got them now. Some things based on those:

-Shotty tried to kill Muffin due to being suspicious about the investigation result on Chun Li.

-Shotty received a Night 2 Results PM which included flavor that stated Chun Li's room had an evil smell, though Chun Li herself had nothing evil or anything that indicated her of being evil.
--It also stated that there was an Asian girl sleeping outside Shotty's room.
--It also stated that someone had noticably visited Muffin's room prior to Shotty going there.
---Shotty made a loud metallic click sound on arriving at Muffin's room.
---Something made a sound after Shotty attempted to kill Muffin.

[Kast]

@Robo Wagon Analysis-
Looking at the timing of the votes, Millar was obviously waiting for someone to place the (effective) L-1 vote. It is implausible that scum would simply L-1, Hammer, ZR. Regardless of whether the scum team planned the ZR to end the day early or whether Millar was taking action on his own, Millar and Fur's votes were too close and it is implausible that scum would place votes so close and essentially guarantee that they both come under fire and have increased suspicion as a result.

Neto's vote was also the one that clearly turned the wagon from a random wagon (BV & Shotty) to a serious wagon; prompting an additional vote. Regardless of what BV or Shotty thought about Robo, their initial votes both had weak/non-existent reasoning, and could not be expected to sway others.

Neto's vote was a bit different; Neto played the "frustrated townie" card and abandoned his own self-claimed standard logical/analytical play. This departure, combined with the timing of the vote (making it a feasible lynch given the ZR), reveal an opportunistic attack. The same does not apply to anyone else on the wagon.

[Kast]

As Mafia kills are Faction abilities and not role abilities Furc should be able to confirm the exact details of Shotty’s Vig role.

Potential slip. How does MoI know whether a mafia kill is a factional ability or a result of role abilities? This is not something that is always or generally true; particularly not for theme games. This is EVEN LESS likely if he truly believed that mafia have different kill methods with different kill flavors.

[Muffin]

@Muffin-
You realize a vig kill is different from a lynch yes? Early game, town shouldn't lynch claimed cops (or claimed docs); especially not on D1. Allowing that provides scum with excuses for engaging in and encouraging bad game play.
Vigs should absolutely kill their top suspects, even more so if it's a target the town as a whole is unlikely to lynch.

I'll respond to the rest later but I just want to point out that this is ridiculous.

By your logic, if I was a vig and my top suspect claimed doc, and there was no counterclaim, I should vig him the following night since town is unlikely to lynch a claimed doc with no counterclaim.

[Kast]

If you are a vig who thinks the claimed doc is actually scum false-claiming to be doc, then you should shoot him. It's not a difficult concept. It's very basic theory.

[Kast]

if I was a vig and my top suspect claimed doc, and there was no counterclaim,

The problem with your hypothetical reveals your general weakness that you've exhibited throughout the game. Upon hearing the counterclaim, you need to evaluate your read of the suspect.
--If the claim mitigates your suspicion, then the player likely will drop below your top suspect. In this case, you should go after whoever your new top suspect is.
--If the claim is implausible, or there are just no other candidates anywhere near as scummy, then your suspect is likely to remain as the top suspect and should still be vigged.

[Muffin]

if I was a vig and my top suspect claimed doc, and there was no counterclaim,

The problem with your hypothetical reveals your general weakness that you've exhibited throughout the game. Upon hearing the counterclaim, you need to evaluate your read of the suspect.
--If the claim mitigates your suspicion, then the player likely will drop below your top suspect. In this case, you should go after whoever your new top suspect is.
--If the claim is implausible, or there are just no other candidates anywhere near as scummy, then your suspect is likely to remain as the top suspect and should still be vigged.

Because vigs are infallible and never mis-read a player, right?

[Kast]

Because vig kills are guaranteed to be fully in control of town AND because allowing vigs to kill their ToC does not give scum leeway to excuse scummy behavior.

Your sarcastic objection is irrelevant to the point.

[Muffin]

Because vig kills are guaranteed to be fully in control of town AND because allowing vigs to kill their ToC does not give scum leeway to excuse scummy behavior.

Your sarcastic objection is irrelevant to the point.

You'll forgive me if I dismiss your condescending "advice" since I'd be a dead town player.

[Kast]

Such a dismissal would be irrational. Ideal play will not always result in a town win. Claiming that ideal play would result in a net negative situation for town based on private information does not mean the ideal play is no longer ideal.

But you are running away from the basic point: you assert that it is inconsistent for a player to oppose a lynch of a claimed cop, while simultaneously advocating that a vig should night kill the same claimed cop, provided that the vig thinks the claimed cop is actually mafia false-claiming cop. The position is not inconsistent; it follows basic mafia theory.