Mini 1000: The Brave and the Beautiful (Game Over)

[Kast]

Did not receive role PM yet, but confirming that I will be replacing in. Halfway through with re-read. I'll refrain from any more posts til I've caught up AND received a role PM.

[ReaperCharlie]

In case it's not clear: Kast has officially replaced Shotty to the Body, who flaked out.

[Iecerint]

You lose +like points when you refrain from claiming immediately. Just sayin.

[Furcolow]

just go ahead and claim, i swear we won't lynch you

[Kast]

Okay, catch up post to follow then a summary post (catch up was already written as I read but prior to opening my role PM, summary will be written after the catch up is posted).

But since it seems important:
I am Gunnery Chief Ashley Williams, System Alliance Sharpshooter. I have a two-shot night kill which was used N1 on Neto and N2 on Muffin. Shotty was telling the truth.

[Kast]

D1 case on Robo was complete BS. Major +scum on Netopalis for excessive misrepresentation. In general, the irrational but very opportunistic attacks on Robo sound like scum looking for an excuse. This fits well if he expected his buddy to deal a finishing blow and end the day early.

@Muffin-
Sounds fake. Contextual posts also feel like distancing/bussing a weaker teammember.

@MoI-
Goodpost. Disagree with the vote analysis. Timing indicates Millar was waiting for someone to place an "effective" L-1 so he could "hammer". If there's a buddy helping him, Neto's vote is the most probable one.

@Neto-
I bet you're hating having Millar as a buddy.

Tagteam mafia action.

@Ythan-
Didn't have much of a read but this made me realise I disagree with the guy on a lot of theory, but I'm getting a semi-active town who doesn't know any better read. Not a weak player, but not the go-to guy for analysis.

@Kdub-
Playing a careful game (as normal). Pretty reasonable on the whole so far.

@Fur-
Reads like a weak player. If town, scum will likely aim a mislynch at this guy.

@MoI-
Taking Millar more seriously than needs to be done... Could just be trying to be thorough...
You're also harping on something that's easily understood. His claim doesn't prove him town. He's admitted it already; it does make him a bad lynch for D1. You pushing this despite that isn't productive.

Side note: given the limited/delayed reveals, game balance argues town has investigative or informational roles.

@Spyrex-
You make games interesting, both as a player or a mod. Return to this thought on successful (or not) execution of proposal.

@Robo-
Typical town overestimating his own value. Claimed detective OR detective's claimed target are the obvious NKs (assuming they are town).
This child was deprived. Or he's a liar.
Bad play.

@iec-
Not getting a strong read on iec.

Didn't note if you were the first to propose this crap case, but if you are, it's complete BS to assume Tanya is a fake claim for Kerrigan.

Spoiler: The Tanya claim fits.

If you've ever played the game Tanya is a good guy commando who is capable of interrogating and/or infiltrating and investigating others. Whoever posted that Tanya was Chaotic Neutral was also selling some BS. She's a very clear and obvious Good Guy character. It's also completely irrational to assume Kerrigan would fake claim a demonstrable role unless she could demonstrate that power. Tanya is a way better fit than Kerrigan when it comes to an investigative role.

@Muffin-
Getting cold feet about your bus?

@D2 Opening-
Robo don't be an idiot. Furcolow's hammer, despite not waiting for a claim, is indicative of town if anything. Agreed the Spyrex death sounds like the scum NK, especially given his soft claiming.

@Ythan-
Lol, did you miss the memo on the theme of this game? Also, did you consider that Fur may have investigated you last night

like he said he was going to?

Separate note, on reading your D2 posts you seem unreasonably upset.

@Fur-
Very interesting. I'm going to have to think about the likelihood that a delayed reveal game would also allow scum to mess with town information abilities.

@Ythan-
I hope resorting to personal attacks isn't your idea of appropriate play. It isn't.

@Muffin-
You'd be more serious and plausible if you didn't pull this out of thin air. As it is, reads like a manufactured wall of text PBP. Not buying this. I agree that Ythan has made some completely nonsensical posts, and his grasp of mafia theory is far lacking...but you aren't really showing he is scum, and more importantly, if you really took issue with so much of his posting, then why was there no mention of this in previous days?

@Lol @Global RB and it's debunking.

@Robo-
Why would you target Fur?

Later post makes this not so weird.

@MoI-
The question to BV makes no sense. It's a logical line of thinking that YOU started. Two players targetted the same person and both their abilities failed. The person targetted also has his abilities blocked (and stolen). If they are telling the truth, the obvious explanation is a jailkeeper on Fur (potentially a jailkeeper who steals powers).

Speculation: MoI stole Fur's role cop power and used it to investigate Shotty. Realized Shotty can kill and assumed scum.

This explains the incredulity at BV assuming Fur was untargetable.

@Iec-
Neto's play was opportunistic and, if you actually follow his reasoning, erratic (disjoint). He was an EXCELLENT vig target and I'm really happy that my predecessor killed him. I'd have taken the exact same shot.

@Fur-
Some agreement. Ythan's posts D2 are extremely rude in general. A lot of what he's posted doesn't belong in any friendly mafia game. You're perfectly fine not making yourself respond to that and making it clear why you aren't responding. If Ythan wants a response, there's an easy way to fix it. At that point, I'd expect to see you answer.

Robo describes a classic actress or prostitute roleblock. It has nothing to do with his maturity. That's an irrelevant personal shot that is hypocritical coming in the same paragraph you object to Ythan's behavior.

Millar is a bad player by conventional standards. He's better as scum than as town, but that's mostly since his buddies can gain points by bussing him.

which makes no sense that I can even imagine, is terrible play.

Your inadequacies as a mafia player are no reason to suspect another player.

@Robo-
I should have addressed this sooner, but Robo is right that his ability makes him almost definitely town. Increased lynch threshold is typically a town power since it autowins almost every endgame scenario for scum (especially if he can also grant it to others, but since that's not demonstrated we'll leave that aside). Scum can easily trump it by killing the townie, and in a vig heavy game it might be feasible as a scum power, but we don't have any evidence to indicate that.

@Kdub-
Dislike the lurking. Post more please.

@MoI-
Non-VT game suggestion with BP as a balancing move is plausible.

@Iec-
Good post. Very solid analysis.

If you believe millar was scum do you think Muffin would bus as hard as happened Day 1 with millar? He put together a rather large post attacking him and was on millar’s ass all Day.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Muffin's early vote and later justification of that vote sounds like a bus. The confidence in his attacks immediately after the ZR is striking and (imo) telling.

@Muffin-
Interesting claim. I have a strong scum read on Muffin, but a blatant cop claim is...not something that should be lynched. Strong questions on why investigate Robo though...

Btw- mafia false claiming cop should be

expected

in any format where death does not reveal affiliation.

@Ythan-

If you're town be glad that we have sure scum in the morning.

@N2,N3,D4-
No deaths is great, except that Muffin should have died.

Again, jailkeeper possibility rises, but the flavor claim that it was passively self hiding (as opposed to someone pushing her into a closet) makes it odd.

@Iec-
This is not as confusing as you're making it out to be. Muffin isn't claiming a separate investigative power (which would be a revisionist scum-tell of fake claiming), he's obviously claiming that Lara's flavor assumes sanity due to some item (artifact/object/whatever), but after the failure with Chun Li, she realizes she doesn't have the item that assures sanity. It's still kinda questionable.

Night 1 – I stole Furcolow’s ability. I wanted to confirm his claim that he was an Ability cop. His powers derive from a pair Binoculars that allow him to Observe someone and determine their powers. I used this power to observe Neto Night 1. Neto’s main ability was Grapple Beam. This ability could be used on a player. That player would be immune from ANY night abilities that targeted them directly. Any abilities used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target. Neto targeted Spyrex Night 1. Thus I also got to observe Spyrex’s power. Spyrex could ‘Hack the System’ to determine the number of Evil players on a lynch.

This needs some confirmations.
-Fur, please confirm whether your ability is what MoI stated.
-Muffin, confirm that your abilities come from an IDD.

-

@Mod

, please confirm the results of the following two hypothetical roles and night choices:

Each night you may pick a target player. Any abilities that target you will also be used on the target.

Each night you may pick a target player to kill. Your kill flavor is "shot".

Code: Select all

Hypothetical Role targets Vanilla Townie 1. Standard Vig targets Hypothetical Role. Nobody else takes any night actions.

SituationA:

Code: Select all

Following Day Begins With:
Hypothetical Role was Shot
Vanilla Townie 1 was Shot

SituationB:

Code: Select all

Following Day Begins With:
Hypothetical Role was Shot
Vanilla Townie 1 was killed (in a different manner from Shot)

Based on MoI's claim about Grapple Beam providing targetting immunity

and copying effects to the target

, BUT having the result that Neto and Spyrex died in DIFFERENT manners, conclusion is that MoI is lying about the Grapple Beam.

For that matter, Grapple Beam sounds like a scum ability; he can protect a suspected buddy from investigations (and anything else) or make himself investigate as innocent (as his target).

From redundancy perspective, Fur is essentially a confirmed role cop, MoI's claim is essentially a role cop + blocker + gets to use the person's ability. Balance issues much?

The claim about Muffin seems to hold...somewhat. It's reading like MoI is a jailkeeper/ability thief. This explains why BV failed to target Fur. This explains how Muffin survived but was also blocked. There is likely an additional scum team member with role blocking abilities who coordinated with MoI to initially block Robo and then block Muffin.

-I will confirm that Mod informed me that Shotty took no action on N3, but his kills were as he stated and he told the truth that his kill was a 2-shot that is now unusable.

You know that might also explain why millar came back in to the thread multiple times with "FU FURC"-type posts. Pissed off for getting bussed so hard?

If this is true, (or if Millar was trying to help his team by implying that) then he should be punished and his team should potentially also be punished. I don't think it's actually true. That's a very fitting thing based on his past behavior.

@Muffin-
Why did you investigate MoI and why did you investigate Robo?

@Iec-

I think it's unlikely that MoI is scum. He looked like the most obvtown player in the game for me, and there was no kill the night I protected him.

This is bad town play. You need to look at and evaluate MoI based on the objective claimed information, instead of ignoring the objective information in favor of subjective "pro-town play". Goodposting can come from scum if they are goodplayers. It is scum's BEST defense. Evaluate the objective information.

@MoI-

2. Day 2 is the perfect time for a Mafian to claim the Neto kill as a Vig. It was the sole reason I floated the idea. I knew Spyrex wasn’t a direct Mafia kill. If Shotty is Mafia who made the kill then claiming he Vigged Neto prevents a Track / Watch result from screwing him. He could then claim limited shot and have his partner(s) make future kills.

This is a bit hard to believe. If true, then you had no reason not to get suspected mafia-Shotty lynched. Conversely, if you are mafia this makes perfect sense as you identify the vig, setup for a future mislynch, and find out who the vig suspects so you know whether you have to worry about him or not.

[Iecerint]

1. I've never played C&C before, though I played the first stage of Red Alert at a friend's house once (you save Einstein, I think?). The "Tanya is CN" assertion was based on her wiki page, where it says that in multiplayer matches the sound of a woman laughing is played when someone trains her or something. It seemed like a CN-ish trope to me.

2. Re: MoI: the objective information is that I protected him and no one died that night.

It looks like your top suspects are MoI and Muffin. Do I have that correct?

Do you still think Neto was scum?

[Kast]

Summary:
I agree with Shotty's target choices, and, until hearing MoI's claim, Muffin would have been my top suspect for today. I'm assuming he tried to kill Muffin because he suspected him.

The problem with this town failing to see the reasons for killing Neto illustrates that most of this town is easily taken in by apparently rational play and attempts to "help" the town. Neto was opportunistic and irrational in his early D1 play. He was almost as bad as Ythan, minus the cursing and personal insults.

– bv310: Not much to say on BV, he's a semi-active player as is. His claim to have been blocked when targetting Fur lends support to MoI as a jailkeeper/power stealer.
– Furcolow: Hammering Millar clears him. MoI confirming his power also helps, though it also damns MoI. It means there are two rolecops in this game, a 2 shot full role cop and a role+flavor cop+RB+Ability Thief. For balance purposes this is unlikely.
– Iecerint: Claim is plausible. Follows MoI a bit too much. Please do some analysis on the objective claims and events of the game so far, then repost thoughts.
– Kdub: Semi-active though nothing extreme. I dislike the lurking. PoE leaves him as the most likely straight up role-blocker. Debatable on whether this would be scum or town who has just been helping scum inadvertently.
– MagnaofIllusion: The claim about the Grapple Beam has a hole. There's no way RC would make a kill flavor mistake; if you've played with him or even just looking at the rich flavor in this game, it's clear that an ability as MoI claimed would copy the kill AND it's kill flavor.
– Muffin: His D1 play strongly indicated a Millar bus, as did his "bad" investigation result. Inexplicably surviving Shotty's NK is another odd point. However, if MoI is scum, it seems very unlikely that Muffin is also scum.

Vote: MoI

Preview Edit:
I thought Muffin was the last scum for most of my re-read. If MoI is scum, Muffin is almost definitely town.

[Kast]

Also:

You lose +like points when you refrain from claiming immediately. Just sayin.

This is ridiculous. As mod can confirm, my post in here to let you all know I was replacing was just a courtesy to you all and done prior to me getting a role PM or finishing a read on the thread.

It's a disservice that would discourages and punishes replacement players.

@Mod and all-
As noted in sig, I'll be VLA this and pretty much every weekend. If you have additional thoughts or questions, post them and I'll answer on Monday.

@Iec-
Please share reactions to discrepancy between MoI's claim about Grapple Beam and difference in kill flavors.

[Iecerint]

Claiming in as little time as possible minimizes the chance that whatever you already claimed was made-up. The longer you take, the less informative confirming your predecessor's information becomes.

Also, I could have confirmed your delayed PM receipt if you'd claimed immediately upon receiving it, but since you didn't, either because you were away from the site or due to some other reason, I can no longer do so.

Your point is that shot/destroyed doesn't match, right? Yeah, that bothered me, too. I might have made mention of it at some point (not sure), but I've trusted MoI because of N3.

More importantly, I think your implication that you think Neto was scum is totally bogus. I don't get the "erratic" play you allude to, and I could cross-supply your argument to focus on "objective" information back at you.

Why are you ignoring the lack of an N3 kill?

[Iecerint]

Also, do you have any major objections to the claim order Muffin/MoI posted, and/or do you want us to continue to massclaim immediately?

[Kdub]

Kast:
If I'm understanding your argument about Magna correctly, you think he or his buddies killed Spyrex, which was unrelated to Neto's death? And he faked Neto's ability to frame whoever the vig was (you)? How would he have known before D2 that there would be another kill that night?

As the different death flavors, I guess you do have a point. Now that I look back at his exact words, Magna described the grapple beam as "Any abilities used on Neto during the Night would also be used on the target". Taken literally, that means that your kill ability would also be used on Spyrex, and thus the kill flavor should also be "shot". I still think his claim is detailed enough that it seems legit, but it's worth asking further questions at least. Magna, any response to Kast's point about the kill flavors?

[ReaperCharlie]

As mod can confirm, my post in here to let you all know I was replacing was just a courtesy to you all and done prior to me getting a role PM or finishing a read on the thread.

I confirm this. He had not received his role PM yet.

-@Mod, please confirm the results of the following two hypothetical roles and night choices.

I cannot confirm or deny anything regarding this.

[ReaperCharlie]

I will note, however, that I am happy that the activity level seems to be picking back up. Thanks and please continue.

[Furcolow]

"-Fur, please confirm whether your ability is what MoI stated."
I wish I could, but I've had trouble with thieves and roleblockers on using it. Let me check my role PM in a new window. It states that I will observe a player and interrogate them, and that I can do it twice a game. I would have been able to do it twice, I mean, if it hadn't been stolen by the person I'm about to put my vote on.

vote: moi

die scum

[Furcolow]

I also recommend people unvote kast, as his play is 100x better than shotty's had been. He is doing EXACTLY what I would do if I replaced into a town slot in a game (see my recent games which I would reference in more detail but they're ongoing and that's not cool to do).

[ReaperCharlie]

The Brave and the Beautiful - Vote Count 4.6

MagnaofIllusion [2] - Kast, Furcolow
Kast [1] - MagnaofIllusion
Furcolow [1] - bv310

Not Voting [3] - Iecerint, Kdub, Muffin


With 7 alive, it is 4 to lynch. The deadline is Tuesday, August 24 at 9:30 pm EDT.

[Iecerint]

Waiting for Kast to make comments about the claim order. Failing that, whoever was 2nd on the list is up. I'm pretty sure I was 3rd.

I do what Kast does when I place in regardless of my alignment, so I don't think the form of his replace-in is compelling in and of itself.

[Furcolow]

I'm just glad to have someone else who is suspicious of MoI. He is acting like he did in HP Mafia.

[bv310]

I was the target of MoI's second ability. He is who he says he is, and I doubt he is scum as such. I don't want to reveal too much more, but I will if everybody wants me to, or if he wants me to.

[Iecerint]

So, I'm ambivalent about MoI one way or the other, but no one is challenging that MoI is an ability thief fellow. That has nothing to do with Kast's argument that MoI is scum.

[Muffin]

That sounds lovely. What lake?

Lake Mazinaw

The site I'm on requires specific forum access, so it's not something you can just do right away.

What's the name of the site?

[Muffin]

@Muffin-
Sounds fake. Contextual posts also feel like distancing/bussing a weaker teammember.

Bussing right from the get-go? I random-voted him and then got a whiff of something scummy so I focused all my attention on him for the entire day, purposely avoiding attacking others to tunnel on millar in hopes he would slip up under the pressure. I'd say it worked pretty well. I guess it could be construed as a bus if you really really reached for it, but personally if I was scum I would have gone after someone like Furcolow who plays equally poorly but wasn't on my scumteam (assuming furc is town).

.....

@Muffin-
Getting cold feet about your bus?

Grasping for straws?

....

@Muffin-
You'd be more serious and plausible if you didn't pull this out of thin air. As it is, reads like a manufactured wall of text PBP. Not buying this. I agree that Ythan has made some completely nonsensical posts, and his grasp of mafia theory is far lacking...but you aren't really showing he is scum, and more importantly, if you really took issue with so much of his posting, then why was there no mention of this in previous days?

If you actually took the time to read my posts, you'd notice that I only thought Ythan was scummy after I saw the interplay between him and Robo who I had a guilty on. Not scumhunting is a big tell in my book, and Ythan wasn't doing any. You seem to disagree, so perhaps you can quote some of Ythan's posts that you consider to be serious attempts at scumhunting?

........

@Muffin-
Interesting claim. I have a strong scum read on Muffin, but a blatant cop claim is...not something that should be lynched. Strong questions on why investigate Robo though...

I thought the way robo survived the zerg rush was suspect, and I figured in a town-PR-heavy game like this an increased lynch threshold would be a good balancing tool to make scum more powerful.

Btw- mafia false claiming cop should be

expected

in any format where death does not reveal affiliation.

Derp derp derp. That doesn't mean my claim is automatically false.

.....

-Muffin, confirm that your abilities come from an IDD.

You need to go back and read more carefully. I clearly stated they do not.

.....

The claim about Muffin seems to hold...somewhat. It's reading like MoI is a jailkeeper/ability thief. This explains why BV failed to target Fur. This explains how Muffin survived but was also blocked. There is likely an additional scum team member with role blocking abilities who coordinated with MoI to initially block Robo and then block Muffin.

So I'm scum but scum is roleblocking me? Make up your mind please.

...........

@Muffin-
Why did you investigate MoI and why did you investigate Robo?

I already stated why I investigated MoI previously, and you can look a few lines up for my reasoning behind investigating robo.

[Muffin]

Red text are my responses, btw

[Muffin]

Claiming in as little time as possible minimizes the chance that whatever you already claimed was made-up. The longer you take, the less informative confirming your predecessor's information becomes.

I think if he was going to fakeclaim, he could have easily read the thread in the 24 hours grace period before he was required to reply with his confirmation of replacement. In short, on a forum, I don't think time stamps are a very reliable source of information (unlike IRC, say).