Newbie 993 - Game Over!

[Kirbyoshi]

Welcome CP. Your posts are amazing.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Hi everyone, and no one I will now do a reread.

[drmyshottyizsik]

WOAH!! Ok real fast before I do my second read through, please some one unvote mysterio, he is not all that super scummy and I really think both scum are on the wagon of his. This is probubaly a scum driven mis lynch. I'll be back with my ideas on who the two scum are.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Ok so I looked at the players on the wagon and I read Leech first
and either he is Obv Town, or he is over doing it because he is scum.
And the only reason I would say he may be scum is because,1. He is a very expirienced person, and know right when to attack and back off, but also he is driving the wagon hard core style.

Next I read Illume, and uhhhh... got nothing at all

Then I read Hindu's and got this. He was active lurking, then finally put a case to gether after he votes randomly. Then he active lurks again.

Vote: Hindu

I hate active lurking

And I would like to so I'm sorry
I mis counted votes, I though he was L-1 not L-2 sorry no need to unvote, and only one scum is probubaly on that wagon, and I think it is Hindu

[Hinduragi]

Shotty, I'm not scum and I'm not active lurking. I'm pushing a case I think is perfectly fine. After that grand entrance you just pulled, I'd normally have you as my top suspect, but I've had experiences where I've been wrong about you before so I'm willing to push for the lynch I think is more likely to be scum. Also, what are your thoughts on Mysterio? Does he seem scummy or town? Why?

With that said,

Mod: I'm V/LA until August 16th

.

[Kirbyoshi]

drmy, you may have horrible spelling, but you explained something I couldn't quite put my finger on. The reason I did not find anything on Hindu was because I hardly found anything FROM Hindu. He's been here for most of the game, but he's just been popping in every so often, and not alot of content to speak of.

[drmyshottyizsik]

drmy, you may have horrible spelling, but you explained something I couldn't quite put my finger on. The reason I did not find anything on Hindu was because I hardly found anything FROM Hindu. He's been here for most of the game, but he's just been popping in every so often, and not alot of content to speak of.

It's called active lurking, and it's a huge scum tell

[Mysterio]

Your disrespect for the players and mod in this game is really starting to strike a nerve with me. Your generally insulting tone in your arguments and now blatant disrespect towards the mod, really should be avoided. This is supposed to be a fun game and your constant insulting disrespectful tone is really hurting that aspect of the game. So, again, I'm asking you to stop it. Especially when your activity can be summed up as "active lurking" at best, and even you have admit that you forgot the game was going. Lack of participation is hurting this game, not lack of modding. If everyone was active the mod wouldn't have to find replacements in the first place.

I'm sorry, but what the hell is this crap? Is this some kind of massive appeal to emotion or do you actually take this game that seriously? If you truly think I'm being "disrespectful" (this is mafiascum... seriously?), then why are you only voting for me? Why aren't you petitioning the mod to have me removed from the game? Granted my experience is limited, but this has got to be one of the most bizarre posts I have ever seen in a mafia game. If this was just an appeal to emotion, please don't do it again. It's ridiculous. If you seriously think I am being disrespectful (which can only mean you're taking my posts far more personally than is warranted), then be a little more mature about it and bring it up with the mod. He can decide whether your complaint has merit or not and we can discuss it privately.

Hinduragi had not even been given the chance to respond yet, so how do you know
he would not have responded on his own accord or

slipped up on his own

?

I don't think I would ever wait for someone to slip up on their own. A lot of times placing votes on someone will make them nervous, more so if they're scum. Without the vote, it's possible that they could slip, but I wouldn't hold my breath. If it came down to a choice, I would vote someone to pressure them, rather than hope they feel pressured without the vote.

Mysterio: Can you tell me where Leech has cited Incognito's theory incorrectly?

I didn't say incorrectly, I said properly. As in I don't see a link to Incognito's theory or any way of verifying Leech's claim. We essentially took his word for it. I would appreciate a proper citation just to see if Leech's claim has any merit.

@Chimp Pants
Your post simply recounts events, but doesn't actually bother to explain how they make me look scummy. It's almost as if you expect us to connect the dots for you. Please explain exactly how my actions make me look scummy.

[Trachimbrod]

Thian, I still don't see why you think I was afraid of putting someone at L-3, wary that it would result in a quick mislynch. I was going to vote for Mysterio in RVS for a reason that I don't consider strong enough to vote on outside of RVS. Wagoning would have taken us out of RVS, and while in retrospect that's a good thing, I didn't (and still don't) feel comfortable voting just to pressure. I intend for all of my votes (exlcuding one within RVS that wouldn't end RVS) to have good reasons behind them.

Like I said in 58, "I wouldn't have wanted everyone else to vote for him just because he posted first. "
Did I think Mysterio would get quicklynched because of my 2nd vote? No. However, when you consider the voting policy I had at the time, I would have been violating it if I did vote for a reason that wasn't good enough outside of RVS (which is where that vote would have taken us).

I've caught sick so my reread is still pending. Hopefully I can get it done Saturday or Sunday to decide if I still want to vote for Mysterio.

Also, I PMed the mod at the beginning of this game, but just in case, and for general knowledge:

@mod: I will be on vacation 16-20.

[Leech]

Hey look everyone, Mysterio replied to me! He didn't provide the backing to his claims that I've asked for repeatedly, he simply commented on my request that he be more respectful. He's obviously reading my posts, so why has he blatantly refused to back up his claims? If there was any merit to what he was saying, he'd be able to solidify his claims with a simple quote yet he refuses to do so. Again, Mysterio I am not letting you get away without providing examples of where I've asked people to blindly follow me, and how I've tried to confuse the town. I've requested quotes several times, and I'm not going to stop requesting them until you provide. If you can't, just say so and the topic will drop.

I didn't say incorrectly, I said properly. As in I don't see a link to Incognito's theory or any way of verifying Leech's claim. We essentially took his word for it. I would appreciate a proper citation just to see if Leech's claim has any merit.

Funny, you never brought that concern up a single time before someone else mentioned it. Parrot much? Incog Theory. I had to replace out of that game due to time restraints, but I saw that post before I left and wanted to try it out for myself. From how Mysterio is acting, I think I got a lucky 50%.

WOAH!! Ok real fast before I do my second read through, please some one unvote mysterio, he is not all that super scummy and I really think both scum are on the wagon of his. This is probubaly a scum driven mis lynch. I'll be back with my ideas on who the two scum are.

There are a few really important things to note about this quote. First off, he's telling people to unvote which is extremely scummy. You do not tell people to unvote someone that they feel is scummy or scum. You can ask why someone is voting for another person, or if you feel that person is town you can try to show them how someone else is scummier, but to tell someone to unvote? No. Also his reason is that "he's not all that super scummy." He didn't say that he thought Mysterio was town, or that he wasn't scummy, he said he's not "that super scummy" which still indicates that he's a scummy player. Why did he just suggest that someone unvotes a scummy player? Also scum-driven mislynches are a myth. You will very seldom see a scum team push for a lynch because that draws suspicion towards them in the next phase. You will more than likely see a town-driven mislynch that scum have jumped on at appropriate moments to avoid suspicion.

Major FOS: drmyshotty

[Chimp Pants]

Myst thinks I haven't connected the dots, so here goes...

Myst shifts blame/responsibility for his votes onto Leech in post 35 and 57. Shifting blame can be used by scum to distance from a mislynch. The statement, ""My leanings have nothing to do with him. Your post was sufficient enough for me to join you in pointing the FoS at Hinduragi" shifts the focus onto Leech. A scum player, knowing everyone's alignment, often reveal this knowledge through tentativeness. Tentativeness can be exhibited in a number of ways, including shifting the blame onto other players.

Posts 26 and 30 also display another manifestation of this tentativeness. Myst votes Hindu for "pressure" while seemingly having a stronger scum read on Leech. Votes that don't align with stated opinions reveals tentativeness and lack of conviction.

Posts 55 and 57 use threats to try to limit discussion. Pro-town players should not fear wagons against themselves. This is how we catch scum. Scum try to latch onto wagons with well timed votes or comments. The pro-town response to a wagon is to work to figure out who is placing genuine votes and who isn't. Making OMGUS threats does not serve the town's goals. I'm not interested in coaching the scum, so I won't delve into the somewhat predictable way that scum work on band wagons. Even experienced players tend to fall into these traps.

Myst's post 57 uses strained logic (that Leech would try to make himself appear scummy in another's eyes to make himself appear pro-town), OMGUS threats, and misreps the issue with the "schizophrenic play" comments. By ignoring the actual issue (Myst shifting the blame onto Leech) and focusing on word choice, he minimizes his scummy actions.

Post 78 reveals, in my opinion at least, too much of a focus on avoiding mislynches. This is another manifestation of scummy tentativeness.

Post 79 shows Myst trying to win an argument, not hunt scum. Winning arguments is a way to look busy without actually figuring out alignment.

[drmyshottyizsik]

WOAH!! Ok real fast before I do my second read through, please some one unvote mysterio, he is not all that super scummy and I really think both scum are on the wagon of his. This is probubaly a scum driven mis lynch. I'll be back with my ideas on who the two scum are.

There are a few really important things to note about this quote. First off, he's telling people to unvote which is extremely scummy. You do not tell people to unvote someone that they feel is scummy or scum. You can ask why someone is voting for another person, or if you feel that person is town you can try to show them how someone else is scummier, but to tell someone to unvote? No. Also his reason is that "he's not all that super scummy." He didn't say that he thought Mysterio was town, or that he wasn't scummy, he said he's not "that super scummy" which still indicates that he's a scummy player. Why did he just suggest that someone unvotes a scummy player? Also scum-driven mislynches are a myth. You will very seldom see a scum team push for a lynch because that draws suspicion towards them in the next phase. You will more than likely see a town-driven mislynch that scum have jumped on at appropriate moments to avoid suspicion.

Major FOS: drmyshotty

Ok sorry again about this, I thought he was L-1 and having someone at L-1 this early is bad, we have plenty of time until deadline to really think about it. But I like how you didn't include my post were I appologized for that. Any way yes I don't find him super scummy, maybe a 5 on the scum scale, and since we have plenty of time I would have wanted an unvote if he were L-1. He is my number 2 suspect at the moment, but I really want everyone to pay attention to what hindu isn't doing, even though he is posting alot. Trust me the last game I played was with hindu and he was scum, and he acted just like this.

[hohum]

I suppose since I'm stuck at the airport a round of prods and a votecount is in order.

Half the game needs to be prodded at this point. I'm paying attention now, so please don't lurk.

3. Please try to maintain more than the

minimum standard for activity levels

which is currently

1 post every 48 hours.

If you go 48 hours without posting you will be prodded (as many times as necessary) and if you go 72 hours without posting you will be replaced. Exceptions will be made for low activity periods such as weekends and holidays

Current vote count:

Mysterio(3): Hinduragi, Illume, Leech
Leech(1): Mysterio
Hinduragi(1): Kirbyoshi

Not Voting(4): steppenwolf, Trachimbrod, Thian, startransmission

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

[Chimp Pants]

@Mod: I've replaced Illume, so that vote for Mysterio should be attributed to me to avoid confusion. Thanks.

[Thian]

Ok so I looked at the players on the wagon and I read Leech first
and either he is Obv Town, or he is over doing it because he is scum.

Shotty, this is a sort of obvious statement. Not that I am picking this out to be a scummy thing to say but you really haven't picked a side in which you feel he is. anyone could say person A is town but also could be scum.

Even though you follow up with your reasons as to why you believe he might be scummy, it feels as if you didn't want to choose one way or another by making the above quote include the town comment and then the scum comment.

Thian, I still don't see why you think I was afraid of putting someone at L-3, wary that it would result in a quick mislynch. I was going to vote for Mysterio in RVS for a reason that I don't consider strong enough to vote on outside of RVS.

Trachimbrod: Saying you would vote someone in RVS when you thought it was rvs and then saying you didn't want to pile votes on someone, is a sign of hesitation / fear to me.

you said you would vote mysterio for being first. Putting him at L-3 but you didn't want to pile votes on during RVS. so you want to vote, but you don't vote that to me seems fearful. Why didn't you place your vote during RVS for a reason that you felt was acceptable. I am not talking about now, I am talking about why you didn't do it then when there was no threat of anyone quick lynching.

Maybe fear would not be the right words to use but cautious. to me being cautious is a sense of fear, being hesitant is being cautious you are fearing something.

At the time you were giong to vote for Mysterio in RVS for what you considered an acceptable reason and you AT the time thought it was RVS but didn't vote for mysterio.

i understand that currently you don't think it is a strong enough vote outside of RVS which is fine. however you stated at the time you were going to vote for mysterio for posting first but didn't want to pile votes on during RVS

by you stating that you didn't want to pile votes on during RVS means you thought AT the time it was RVS which you stated it would be acceptable to vote for Mysterio.

and another thing Trachimbrod.

when you say "...,wary of a quick mislynch" are you advising us that you know for certain mysterio would have been a mislynch?

[Kirbyoshi]

Shotty, this is a sort of obvious statement. Not that I am picking this out to be a scummy thing to say but you really haven't picked a side in which you feel he is. anyone could say person A is town but also could be scum.

Actually, he also used the "Too Townie" fallacy. Look it up on the wiki. Scum doesn't "overdo" towniness.

[Kirbyoshi]

And Thian, the part of your post directed to Brod makes my head spin. Did you inadvertently post one point twice? Am I seeing double? What's going on here?

[Mysterio]

He's obviously reading my posts, so why has he blatantly refused to back up his claims?

This has been responded to multiple times. I even quoted the posts where I backed up my claims in response to Hinduragi. Harping on it does two things: (1) it proves my point about you distracting town by harping on the same weak point over and over again, and (2) makes it pretty obvious that you're tunneling.

Funny, you never brought that concern up a single time before someone else mentioned it. Parrot much? Incog Theory. I had to replace out of that game due to time restraints, but I saw that post before I left and wanted to try it out for myself. From how Mysterio is acting, I think I got a lucky 50%.

I hadn't realized until it was mentioned that you didn't actually cite the theory. I was operating under the assumption that you had. Now that you actually linked it, I'm going to reiterate my point about you distracting town. Even Incog himself describes using his theory as voting for "poops and giggles", meaning even he doesn't take it seriously. And yet you still wasted our time with this nonsense, with even trachimbrod now having to spend time defending himself based on a "poops and giggles" theory.

My vote stays on you.


@Chimp Pants All of your points against me are contradicted by...me! It's clear you simply skimmed through my posts and have made a superficial bandwagon jump onto me. Let's go point by point:

The statement, ""My leanings have nothing to do with him. Your post was sufficient enough for me to join you in pointing the FoS at Hinduragi" shifts the focus onto Leech. A scum player, knowing everyone's alignment, often reveal this knowledge through tentativeness. Tentativeness can be exhibited in a number of ways, including shifting the blame onto other players.

Your first point essentially accuses me of "tentativeness", related to me "shifting the blame". This is directly contradicted by my actions in the very same post you quoted, where I pressure Leech about his lack of vote on Hinduragi. The whole "shifting the blame" thing makes no sense, because at the time I was under no pressure. I had one RVS vote on me based on something Leech read in another game, so clearly there was nothing to "shift".

Next point...

Posts 26 and 30 also display another manifestation of this tentativeness. Myst votes Hindu for "pressure" while seemingly having a stronger scum read on Leech. Votes that don't align with stated opinions reveals tentativeness and lack of conviction.

Your first point refers to something I said in a later post, but then you go back to this earlier post without acknowledging my pressure on Leech for not voting Hinduragi. Your logic here essentially goes A --> B --> A, forgetting all about C. How can I be tentative for not voting my suspicion, while at the same time pressuring someone else for not voting

their

suspicion? The answer: Clearly, my biggest suspicion at the time was on Hinduragi. Hence my vote, and also why I eventually switched it to Leech when

he

became more suspicious.

Moving on...

Posts 55 and 57 use threats to try to limit discussion. Pro-town players should not fear wagons against themselves.

To put it bluntly, this makes zero sense. First of all, posts 55 and 57 aren't even about me. They were about the earlier "scumbuddy" read I had on Leech, where I admitted it was weak. And then noted Leech's strange play in regards to my admission of having a weak early read. Saying that they're threats and that I fear a wagon on myself shows pretty clearly that you skimmed it and didn't bother to try and understand the context.

Which leads me to this gem...

Post 79 shows Myst trying to win an argument, not hunt scum. Winning arguments is a way to look busy without actually figuring out alignment.

What does this even mean? Responding to someone who is making accusations against me is "trying to win an argument"? Could it possibly be nothing more than

responding to accusations

? This is one hell of a stretch and leads me to my earlier bandwagon comment. Your points here are not only weak, but they take posts out of context and accuse me of doing things even though my actions contradict your argument in the very same post.

FoS: Chimp Pants

.

[Thian]

And Thian, the part of your post directed to Brod makes my head spin. Did you inadvertently post one point twice? Am I seeing double? What's going on here?

Kirbyoshi. I brought up a point, he asked for explanation, he didn't understand it after I explained it so I explained it yet again seeing as though one explanation wasn't enough

What I'm getting is there is a difference between how he felt before when his behaviour did not match up what his beliefs were and I want to get to the bottom of it because his caution was unjustified, at that time.

The caution / hesitation to me makes me feel he did not want to start a bandwagon and raise suspicion on himself and it has nothing to do with "piling votes" on Mysterio because by him voting it wouldn't even mattered as there are still not enough people to quick hammer before adequate discussion.

thats what I find so scummy about it.

Kirbyoshi. I went and read the wiki but I am not understanding the "too townie" fallacy that you are bringing up in this instance. can you explain it to me? Not the theory but where you found the "too townie" fallacy in what was said?

[Chimp Pants]

@All: Sorry for the WOT.... Please try to read it and I'll try to be more concise in the future.

@Myst- I read every word of every post multiple times. No skimming here.

Your first point essentially accuses me of "tentativeness", related to me "shifting the blame". This is directly contradicted by my actions in the very same post you quoted, where I pressure Leech about his lack of vote on Hinduragi. The whole "shifting the blame" thing makes no sense, because at the time I was under no pressure. I had one RVS vote on me based on something Leech read in another game, so clearly there was nothing to "shift".

You placing responsibility for your vote onto Leech has nothing to do with any perceived pressure on you. There are two related points, neither of which have anything to do with the number of vote on you at posts 26 and 30.

1. You vote Hindu for "pressure" while simultaneously placing seemingly stronger suspicion on Leech for distancing. In other words, your strongest stated suspicions (that Leech is scum) don't align with your vote.
2. You place responsibility for your vote onto Leech. This is particularly odd since you seem to have him placed high on your scum list. This is the blame shifting I am pointing out. Scum are the only players who know alignments D1. Foreknowledge of impending mislynches can manifest in a number of different ways, including failure to stand behind votes.

Here's where you place responsibility for

your

vote onto Leech.

My leanings have nothing to do with him.

Your post was sufficient enough for me to join you in pointing the FoS at Hinduragi

, but my scum buddy leaning has to do with you pointing the FoS, but refraining from voting.

So voting for Hindu is because of Leech, not Hindu? How is Hindu scummy because Leech allegedly distanced himself from Hindu? You voting for Hindu at that point while having stronger suspicions of Leech doesn't make sense from a town perspective. As you said, "it's a bit suspicious itself to keep a vote on anyone other than the person you find suspicious."

Your first point refers to something I said in a later post, but then you go back to this earlier post without acknowledging my pressure on Leech for not voting Hinduragi. Your logic here essentially goes A --> B --> A, forgetting all about C. How can I be tentative for not voting my suspicion, while at the same time pressuring someone else for not voting their suspicion? The answer: Clearly, my biggest suspicion at the time was on Hinduragi. Hence my vote, and also why I eventually switched it to Leech when he became more suspicious.

The core problem is that you voted for Hindu while seeming to voice stronger suspicions on Leech. How can you be tentative for not voting your suspicion, while at the same time pressuring someone else for not voting their suspicion? When

you

seem to be voting against your stronger suspicion.

Nothing

in your posts suggest that you are more suspicious of Hindu than Leech. Your posts suggest the exact opposite. The only statements you give concerning Hindu are:

-Your vote "to pressure you (Hindu) for a defense from Leech's suspicions"
-Stating that you're "intrigued by Leech's post"
-"Your post (Leech's) was sufficient enough for me to join you in pointing the FoS at Hinduragi"
-Suggestions that Leech and Hindu could be scum buddies.

Each of your statements about Hindu have more to do with Leech than Hindu. When you voted for Hindu, you spent most of the post articulating your suspicions that Leech was scum.


Concerning posts 55 and 57. I understand the context well enough to realize that you aren't accurately representing it. You stated in multiple posts (posts 35 and 40) that you were "backing off" of Leech. When questioned about these statements, you responded with:

So, unless your goal here is to make yourself look suspicious (which, ironically, you now are), then I'm not sure why you have a problem with me moving on?

The issue wasn't you "moving on" or admitting a weak early lead but rather why you felt the need to make unsolicited statements about "backing off" in multiple posts. Your response to questions about these statements was an OMGUS threat to Leech.

The "winning arguments not scum hunting" issue of post 79 is admittedly more difficult to pin down. There's an important difference between who's right and who's scum. Your discussion with Leech about the relative value of mislynches really has little to do with finding scum yet you seem to attach alignment to it:

This is just pure scum nonsense. A town mislynch can certainly be helpful sometimes, but to argue that your survival is not crucial is so beyond the pale as to be a huge slip up on your part. With townie dead, we have one less possible power, one less vote, one less pair of eyes to help investigate, one less person to pressure someone else who we suspect to be scum. Town deaths can be helpful, but for the most part they are unhelpful. There is a reason why scum tend to push for mislynches, because even if it may cause them to look suspicious, they have other ways of deflecting that suspicion away, which means that a town mislynch simply brings them closer to a win. I honestly cannot fathom why you would make such a ridiculous argument.

The problem isn't who's right or wrong (you're wrong by the way ). The problem is that you hide in a debate over who is right or wrong. The above quote isn't scum hunting yet you attach scum accusations to it.

[Chimp Pants]

@Trach: What do you hope to accomplish with your self imposed voting policy?

[Kirbyoshi]

Thian: The "Too Townie" fallacy basically says that there will never be a time when a player is too pro-town to be town. You can argue that that player's towniness is contrived, but you need evidence for that. As for how you made my head spin...

At the time you were giong to vote for Mysterio in RVS for what you considered an acceptable reason and you AT the time thought it was RVS but didn't vote for mysterio.

i understand that currently you don't think it is a strong enough vote outside of RVS which is fine. however you stated at the time you were going to vote for mysterio for posting first but didn't want to pile votes on during RVS

by you stating that you didn't want to pile votes on during RVS means you thought AT the time it was RVS which you stated it would be acceptable to vote for Mysterio.

This just seems to me like you're saying the same thing over and over. It isn't the harping that Mysterio apparently finds so scummy, but it's kinda confusing.

[Thian]

Kirbyoshi: I am still a bit confused about the too townie fallacy where in Shotty's paragraph is this fallacy being used?

[startransmission]

Ok, I'm here. Lemme shower and eat and I'll throw up a post or two.

[Kirbyoshi]

[quote=shotty]either he is Obv Town, or he is over doing it because he is scum.[/quote] Here.