Mini 1021: Battousai's Mountaintnous Mountain Mafia (Over)

[ConfidAnon]

Korashk has requested replacement!

Ugh.

[Battousai]

Vote Count:

Nexus

-4- Xite91, LoudmouthLee, Lateralus22, Leech

Korashk

-4- dalt54321, ConfidAnon, PranaDevil, Nexus

dalt54321

-2- Saga, havingfitz

ConfidAnon

-1- iamausername

PranaDevil

-1- Korashk

Not Voting:

No one

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch (pre-deadline)!

[Saga]

Hey guys. Sorry I'm not posting, it's just that the table that holds my computer fell.

Until I get a new one (which is probrably by the end of the week) I won't post much because posting in a cellphone is a bitch (not to mention horribly expensive). My bad, feel free to replace me. Heh, I totally didn't see this one coming...

[LoudmouthLee]

Happy Monday everyone! It looks like we're going to need to replace 2 (and possibly 3!) players in Saga, Korashk and Dalt (I'm sorry, but one line isn't going to do it.. about how long the days are.) For now, I'm going to metagame and play some WIFOM. If you have an issue with this post, realize that it's purely speculative and I['m throwing it out to the collective consciousness.

[meta] When a newbie comes into a game, the hardest role for them to play is indeed vanilla townie. They become bored with the game, having no night actions and lose all sorts of interest in the game. I've seen it in Newbie games before. People don't like being Vanilla. They'd rather be a cop, or a vig, or scum, or a doc. They'd rather be someone. With that being said, Dalt, IMHO, isn't doing a job of "Lying low because he's scum." I think he's "disillusioned because he's not an interesting role." I do reserve the right to change this later, but for now, I'm not comfortable with a Dalt lynch. [/meta]

Saga has not given me enough of a read to go further, and the fact that he won't be here until Friday will definitely screech the game to a halt. The one that really boggles my mind is Korashk, who was active and was also coming under some major fire. That "request of replacement" really makes me wonder, quite a bit. It's something to keep an eye on.


@Leech I confused CA and IAM. Sorry about that. So, to reiterate, did you find IAM's non-reaction to HF to be a tell of any sorts?
@Lat: I let the thread know that I was going to be away, primarily for the weekend. I didn't get a chance to really question him yet. It'll happen. Sometimes, Lat, you just got to let them talk. When they don't feel threatened, the scum tends to slip up more than when they're on guard.
@IAM: Do you have a pro-town read on "Poor old Nexus"? Is it just the immense shift in posting style that you're attributing to Newb-ness rather than scum-ness? I'm not sold yet.
@CA: I think we're on the same Dalt page. I'm actually feeling like a HF lynch would be almost better than a Dalt lynch. Has HF been on any wagons at all? I did find it interesting that you liked the points thrown out at nexus, and in the same post, voted for Korashk without even an FOS of Nexus. Do you think that Nexus is pro-town or anti-town? Why?
@Nexus: Something I've noticed is the mafia buddying-up play, where a scum merely mimics the mindset of someone that scum knows is pro-town. Do you think that your "list"

could be seen

as buddying up? (Note: I wasn't asking you if you were buddying up. I'm asking if, separating yourself from the situation, that someone could look at both of yours and XCite's lists and think that you were "following him.")

[ConfidAnon]

@CA: I think we're on the same Dalt page. I'm actually feeling like a HF lynch would be almost better than a Dalt lynch. Has HF been on any wagons at all? I did find it interesting that you liked the points thrown out at nexus, and in the same post, voted for Korashk without even an FOS of Nexus. Do you think that Nexus is pro-town or anti-town? Why?

I don't really use FoS's that much . . . they are kind of pointless, and saying you suspect someone gets the point across. I think Nexus is anti-town with the inconsistant suspicions but that could easily be a newb tell.

[Leech]

He has played here before despite stating he hasn't. He commented on the rules for voting...displayed his ability to vote properly in his previous (un-acknowledged) game...and yet can't vote right here. He is just coming off as a poor little lamb lost in the woods to me and I am not buying it. Obviously your interpretation of lying is different than mine.

He posted two contentless posts in a game two years ago and vanished. For one, he might not even remember he was in that game in the first place with such a limited duration. Also, even if he did remember that game, I could definitely see why he'd lie about it regardless of his alignment. "Hey guys, i played one game here two years ago, then flaked on it extremely early on." is not the best way to make the rest of the players in the game comfortable with your commitment to the game. If you are going to play the mind-reader game and assume that he intentionally lied about the matter, then you might want to take into consideration reasons why he'd lie in the first place.

@Leech I confused CA and IAM. Sorry about that. So, to reiterate, did you find IAM's non-reaction to HF to be a tell of any sorts?

Yes, I did feel that how quickly he dropped it was scummy. A claimed gambit with no follow through always reeks of scum trying to win townie points to me. However, he responded to my concern here:

Xite tipped havingfitz off before I had any chance to pursue the gambit to the point where it might actually garner anything useful. If I'd been around to make a post immediately after havingfitz's first I certainly would have pursued the issue further.

He has a point. Xite did, in fact, bring up the fact that he misread the Mod's posts, and HF was fully aware of the setup before Iam had a chance to step in. So, as much as I hate "I would have done ____ if ____" defenses, this one is actually solid.

[meta] When a newbie comes into a game, the hardest role for them to play is indeed vanilla townie. They become bored with the game, having no night actions and lose all sorts of interest in the game. I've seen it in Newbie games before. People don't like being Vanilla. They'd rather be a cop, or a vig, or scum, or a doc. They'd rather be someone. With that being said, Dalt, IMHO, isn't doing a job of "Lying low because he's scum." I think he's "disillusioned because he's not an interesting role." I do reserve the right to change this later, but for now, I'm not comfortable with a Dalt lynch. [/meta]

I completely agree with that. Also, I will add on the fact that he mentioned playing games elsewhere. I play games on other forums where a day will last a week at the very most. So his comment on how long the day is strikes me as a genuine source of confusion and frustration. When I first came here it took me a while to adapt to the way the game was played, so I can relate. Furthermore, he has stated confusion about not knowing what to do. When you are one of the primary suspects, it is hard for a newbie to react in a way that doesn't just result in appearing scummier. I have a hard time believing that no matter what course of action he takes, that people won't jump on him the second another opportunity presents itself, and push for a VI mislynch. That last bit is pure speculation on my part, but that's how I see it.

[Xite91]

[meta] When a newbie comes into a game, the hardest role for them to play is indeed vanilla townie. They become bored with the game, having no night actions and lose all sorts of interest in the game. I've seen it in Newbie games before. People don't like being Vanilla. They'd rather be a cop, or a vig, or scum, or a doc. They'd rather be someone. With that being said, Dalt, IMHO, isn't doing a job of "Lying low because he's scum." I think he's "disillusioned because he's not an interesting role.

" I do reserve the right to change this later, but for now, I'm not comfortable with a Dalt lynch.

[/meta]

That "request of replacement" really makes me wonder, quite a bit. It's something to keep an eye on.

@Nexus: Something I've noticed is the mafia buddying-up play, where a scum merely mimics the mindset of someone that scum knows is pro-town. Do you think that your "list"

could be seen

as buddying up? (Note: I wasn't asking you if you were buddying up. I'm asking if, separating yourself from the situation, that someone could look at both of yours and

XCite's

lists and think that you were "following him.")

I agree on the meta, but it's another superstition that you're going to have to let go of, and go more based on words, that being said, Dalt needs to start playing, because I really hate lurker-lynching policies
Also, bolded - this seems reeeeaaaally cautious

It's eh. I think that yes, it could be suspicious, but you might want to check if this is the only game he's replacing out of.

Underlined - It's Xite, pronounced zite, sorry that's just a peeve of mine

[ConfidAnon]

I checked.

He's in another game. His last post was on the 8th, but there is no mention of him requesting replacement.

[Xite91]

EBWOP guess I got a bit ahead of myself, I left out half my post.

Korashk has requested replacement!

Ugh.

QFT

@CA: I think we're on the same Dalt page. I'm actually feeling like a HF lynch would be almost better than a Dalt lynch. Has HF been on any wagons at all? I did find it interesting that you liked the points thrown out at nexus, and in the same post, voted for Korashk without even an FOS of Nexus. Do you think that Nexus is pro-town or anti-town? Why?

I don't really use FoS's that much . . . they are kind of pointless, and saying you suspect someone gets the point across. I think Nexus is anti-town with the inconsistant suspicions but that could easily be a newb tell.

The suspicions aren't that inconsistent, and he only changes what he says he would change. Where are the inconsistencies?
Anyways, I got enough information from it to do this, though;

Unvote, Vote: Lat

We'll see where this takes us

Also, ok, well we should wait to see if he replaces out of that one before we get too suspicious

[ConfidAnon]

CA's not that suspicious.

CA's more suspicious than I thought.

Voting LmL.

He's only fourth on my list.

Things like that.

[Xite91]

Okay, makes sense, but hasn't he already explained those things?

[Nexus]

I was going to say-I've already explained those things.

Each post changed because I was/had been rereading the thread, and new things had come up/popped out at me. There's not a lot else I can say-I mean, would you prefer it if I mindlessly pursued the same point, even if it's completely wrong?

[ConfidAnon]

Okay, makes sense, but hasn't he already explained those things?

I should probably reread to make sure I'm not missing something, but those are kind of strange mistakes to make. They sound like lazy scum . . . but as I said, it could be a new player tell.

[Battousai]

Llamafluff replaces Korashk

[LlamaFluff]

Llamafluff replaces Korashk

That I do. Should have thoughts soon.

[LlamaFluff]

Hi. Im the new korashk. I also love this setup given my hatered of power role heavy games. Some key things though

Things people do not realize
1) Overdefensiveness is a myth. It is the absolute worst tell in the history of tells on this site. I would rather use a RNG then lynch someone for it. This is because it not only is a subjective tell (you may see it as something different then the person you are sitting next to) but also because no one wants to be lynched.
2) Theory says we should no lynch (as 2:9 has better town odds then 2:10 IIRC), sad no one brought that up, but figured unless someone else liked mountanious no one would have. This of course is just theory, as if we ran the game by RNG.
3) Random wagons to start the game are good. For some reason most people nowadays think they are horribly scummy. Am I really that old of a player that meta has shifted that greatly? Possibly, but I challenge anyone who thinks that they are bad to give me reasons why that is true.

Analysis

17 (xite) - First legitimate tell of the game! Random vote +FoSs on the two people who seem to be somewhat out of the RVS stage. This argues that the random stage is over, yet no stances are taken on what "ended" it.
22 (fitz) - If he really did not read the setup, he is town. If he did this is a nulltell.
48 (PD) - See point 3 for part of this (wagoning). Sort of using a double standard on CA here and also still pressuring saga while not asking questions to, or having already determined which player is scummier.
64 (Leech) - Getting on LmL for bringing up him being an old player, but I do not know how or why this is any type of a tell. Seems to be a shot at the credibility of him without taking a stance on his alignment.
67 (xite) - Saying that everyone who has used early scumcatching things "seems to have failed" rubs me wrong. Now it could be that xite thinks that CA, PD and LML are all town here, not sure, although to not be a scumslip this would have to be true. Now, this also begs the question of why xite is doing nothing to diffuse the "town on town" fighting that they would expect to be occuring here. Odd enough he called CA and LML distancing scum earlier.
87 (xite) - Ok cool. Xite is scum as he is now saying that CA, PD and LML are all scum on information, which seems to go against them all "failing to catch scum" when what they did made them all go for eachother.

That is through page 4/5 for now. Xite and Leech are scummy to me. Saga and IUN are making me feel uneasy on a gut level for whatever reason.

[Leech]

64 (Leech) - Getting on LmL for bringing up him being an old player, but I do not know how or why this is any type of a tell. Seems to be a shot at the credibility of him without taking a stance on his alignment.

It wasn't the fact that he's an "old player" rather that it seemed like he was continually trying to use appeals to experience to give his arguments more credibility.

[PranaDevil]

Llama, don't know if you're planning on doing so, however I'd like you to also give opinions on Korashk as you read through as though he were just another player in the game.

[Xite91]

67 (xite) - Saying that everyone who has used early scumcatching things "seems to have failed" rubs me wrong. Now it could be that xite thinks that CA, PD and LML are all town here, not sure, although to not be a scumslip this would have to be true. Now, this also begs the question of why xite is doing nothing to diffuse the "town on town" fighting that they would expect to be occuring here. Odd enough he called CA and LML distancing scum earlier.
87 (xite) - Ok cool. Xite is scum as he is now saying that CA, PD and LML are all scum on information, which seems to go against them all "failing to catch scum" when what they did made them all go for eachother.

Post 67: Ironically, that was my way of trying to diffuse the situation, I was getting tired of the thread-clogging on "Oh, he claimed to use a gambit, but I don't believe it" It's become annoying rereading the same case back and forth that shouldn't have gone past a post or two.
Post 87: If you look later you'll see me say that that is precisely why I was going more on gut than on information, because a lot of the information is too biased and is making me frustrated trying to reed any of it out.

I am glad to finally see a case against me, though, this is what makes the game fun

[LoudmouthLee]

Posting from my droid, so please pardon if this post is of the shorter variety...

FoS: Xite

I find it somewhat suspect that you unvoted the current voteleader onto someone without a bandwagon at all. You haver defended Nexus quite a bit, and if Nexus turns up scum, it could very easily be seen as a link. (I do think that Nexus still has not done enough to gain the benefit of the doubt here.

As for dalt, I would expect him to be an overposter if he's used to short days, not an underposter. I just don't think he's interested in posting analysis.

[iamausername]

@IAM: Do you have a pro-town read on "Poor old Nexus"?

Yes. Definitively yes. I feel like a whole lot of the points that have been raised against him have just been blowing some poor communication on his part completely out of proportion. I think the way he's been throwing his unedited thoughts out as they occurred to him is actually highly indicative of a pro-town mindset, I'd expect scum to be much more structured and planned. People are pouncing on the inconsistencies in these thoughts, but I don't think inconsistency in and of itself is a scumtell. Pro-town players can and do change their minds, and Nexus's explanations for when and why his mind changed about CA, for example, made perfect sense to me. Most of the points brought up against him just leave me thinking "why is that scummy?" and I'm not seeing a lot of explanations that sway me at all.

As I said, I think the thing where he apparently left his vote on you "to see how you'd react" AND because "he forgot it was there" was actually suspect. I don't buy his explanation, any time someone says they were doing something "to see how you'd react", it is probably a cop out because they didn't really have a good reason for doing it, and I think that is definitely the case here. But I don't think that outweighs the good feelings I have about his play as a whole.

I'm actually feeling like a HF lynch would be almost better than a Dalt lynch. Has HF been on any wagons at all?

I'm with you on this, I think havingfitz is pretty much coasting on his dalt vote. Like he thinks because he's found a proven lie, it's OK to stubbornly insist that it outweighs anything else that ever happened to the point that nothing else is worth commenting on.

dalt is just useless, and I think he would be equally useless regardless of alignment.

Anyways, I got enough information from it to do this, though;

Unvote, Vote: Lat

We'll see where this takes us

:goodposting:

Llamafluff replaces Korashk

:goodposting:

2) Theory says we should no lynch (as 2:9 has better town odds then 2:10 IIRC), sad no one brought that up, but figured unless someone else liked mountanious no one would have. This of course is just theory, as if we ran the game by RNG.

I think it's best to save the No Lynch for if we get down to a MyLo situation. If we no lynch today, it's easy for scum to pick off a townie that no one much suspects. With less players, it's a lot more likely that every townie will be suspected by

someone

, so the No Lynch would do a lot more to actually lower the suspicion pool at that point.

I find it somewhat suspect that you unvoted the current voteleader onto someone without a bandwagon at all.

I find it quite the opposite. But I guess our opposing opinions about Nexus probably have a lot to do with that, so.

---

Hey, Lat. Who else is scummy besides Nexus?

[Xite91]

FoS: Xite

I find it somewhat suspect that you unvoted the current voteleader onto someone without a bandwagon at all. You haver defended Nexus quite a bit, and if Nexus turns up scum, it could very easily be seen as a link. (I do think that Nexus still has not done enough to gain the benefit of the doubt here.

Want to see my original case against Nexus?

Xite, want to actually show us where the scummy factor was in Nexus' post yet, or we still playing the guessing game? After all, why should I clarify anything if you can't be arsed?

*Sigh* do I have to do everything?
It's not that hard to catch

K so I'll start with showing you Nexus' post

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to agree with iamusername.

CA, I find it very odd you switched your vote from Lee, which had three people on it, to another person. That's just prolonging the RVS, especially because your reasoning's been sketchy.

Plus, your bandwagons aren't achieving anything but put you under suspicion. So,

FoS:ConfidAnon

In other news, I nostalgia'd at your avatar.

First thing's first

Here's username's post

CA, you say you are just trying to get a bandwagon going on anyone, but... you moved your vote away from LML, who had several other votes, and who you had actually given some kind of reason to vote onto Leech, who had no other votes for no reason. Why on earth would you think that that is an effective way of getting a bandwagon going?

And why are you just trying to get a random wagon going anyway when there are clearly actual serious cases being made in the game?

The way I see it, all this "I'm just trying to get a wagon going" stuff is just an excuse to avoid accountability for your votes, and I'm not going to stand for that.

First point Nexus uses - An almost replica of username's, yes, (s)he said, I agree, but then she furthers it a bit by saying that it's just prolonging RVS.

Now as she said this, it was page 3, which is still somewhat short for RVS
Also, it took us a bit more out of RVS
And it had nothing to do with what anyone else had said, so it wasn't just an oh, i agree point.
This, my friends, is her making a case someone else has made, but to make it seem like her own, tacking on a point that really doesn't add to much.

Does the same thing

again

as before, this time adding an FoS but not a vote. Why is that Nexus? Are you too afraid to hop on the wagon, but want a placeholder in case it goes anywhere?

Next, she seems to be going ohai, this person has suspicion on them, lets throw down a bit more and see where it goes.

All in all, that post was extremely scummy

Ta-Da!
Here's pretty much what I did;
1) It was pretty easy to tell that Nexus was a newb which means;
a) If town, no matter what they do, if attacked, they will probably defend in a scummy way (Making it easier to make them look like scum)
b) They'll probably overreact to almost everything
c) Usually newbscum are more reserved out of fear of being caught (the way he posts is why I'm pretty sure he's town, it's without fear/worry)
2) Try and point out a post that, if skewed ridiculously, looks scummy and ask for a case from it
3) If this doesn't work (which it didn't obviously) resort to plan B, make a case yourself and see who follows it
4) I have this knack for making believable cases when I don't even believe in them, I guess, because a few people followed it, but the way they did it seemed town enough, so I kept up the charade, hoping more people would jump on.
5) Nexus did a great job of making himself "seem" scummy to you guys, too, exactly the way I'd hoped he would
5) Lat jumped on, which would have been not-so-scummy, if it weren't for the way he did it, he seemed to be looking for more things to throw at him and attacking him in a way that just doesn't look townish to me at all, (it almost made my skin crawl reading it, and I was glad that I didn't get that kind of an attack as a newb, it would have made me

want

to claim scum, even if I was town) hence my vote on Lat.

And that, my friends, is how to perform a successful gambit. Learn it, love it, and join the Lat wagon.

[Lateralus22]

We'll see where this takes us

Where would you like me to take you?

@Lat: I let the thread know that I was going to be away, primarily for the weekend. I didn't get a chance to really question him yet. It'll happen. Sometimes, Lat, you just got to let them talk. When they don't feel threatened, the scum tends to slip up more than when they're on guard.

Alright.

-----

@Iamusername

You say Nexus is a newb correct? You also believe scum is structured and well planned. Now according to what I've understood from your reasoning, correct me if I'm wrong, but a newbie will more likely be inconsistent and scum more likely to be well thought out and structured? Will you please kindly tell me how a newbie scum will play?

Hey, Lat. Who else is scummy besides Nexus?

There are multiple players who've been suspicious, do you want me to repeat everything's that's been said, or should I say who I believe to most likely be Nexus's scummbuddy. Or the two other scum if Nexus is not scum?

@Xite

So Xite, scum slip much? You seem to automatically assume Nexus is 100% town?

4) I have this knack for making believable cases when I don't even believe in them, I guess, because a few people followed it, but the way they did it seemed town enough, so I kept up the charade, hoping more people would jump on.

Does this mean the points you make against Nexus are not real scum tells?

5) Nexus did a great job of making himself "seem" scummy to you guys, too, exactly the way I'd hoped he would

Not liking how you're using Nexus as a tool. So if a town newbie makes himself look scummy (I am assuming this is your reason for "knowing" Nexus is town) does this mean a newbie scum will not look scummy?

c) Usually newbscum are more reserved out of fear of being caught (the way he posts is why I'm pretty sure he's town, it's without fear/worry)

Going back to the last question, if newbie scum does not act scummy does this not make your last point null?

b) They'll probably overreact to almost everything

Why'd you add this point in? From my point of view it only looked like Nexus overreacted in one post, then he got back on track and remained calm.

[Xite91]

We'll see where this takes us

1) Where would you like me to take you?

@Lat: I let the thread know that I was going to be away, primarily for the weekend. I didn't get a chance to really question him yet. It'll happen. Sometimes, Lat, you just got to let them talk. When they don't feel threatened, the scum tends to slip up more than when they're on guard.

Alright.

@Xite

2) So Xite, scum slip much? You seem to automatically assume Nexus is 100% town?

4) I have this knack for making believable cases when I don't even believe in them, I guess, because a few people followed it, but the way they did it seemed town enough, so I kept up the charade, hoping more people would jump on.

3) Does this mean the points you make against Nexus are not real scum tells?

5) Nexus did a great job of making himself "seem" scummy to you guys, too, exactly the way I'd hoped he would

4) Not liking how you're using Nexus as a tool. So if a town newbie makes himself look scummy (I am assuming this is your reason for "knowing" Nexus is town) does this mean a newbie scum will not look scummy?

c) Usually newbscum are more reserved out of fear of being caught (the way he posts is why I'm pretty sure he's town, it's without fear/worry)

5) Going back to the last question, if newbie scum does not act scummy does this not make your last point null?

b) They'll probably overreact to almost everything

6) Why'd you add this point in? From my point of view it only looked like Nexus overreacted in one post, then he got back on track and remained calm.

1) A scumlynch
2) Scumslip? Where? And I don't know %100 that he's town, but he seems a lot more town-like than you do
3) In some situations, they are, in Nexus' situation? Probably not
4) I'm sorry? I think he can react to it how he will, and he might not be too happy with me, but I'm pretty sure that he's the one that gets to get angry at me for using him as a tool. This sentence sounds a lot like you trying to discredit me. My reason for being pretty sure he's town is because of the "slips" he's making. They do seem more attributed to noobtown than to noobscum.
5) I'm talking in generalities, most of the time, people that will claim noob have very specific ways of acting.
6) I was giving you my whole perspective, he didn't overreact so much as I thought he would, but he still reacted enough to gain more suspicion, which didn't make it a failed attempt at catching scum

[Lateralus22]

1) A scumlynch
2) Scumslip? Where? And I don't know %100 that he's town, but he seems a lot more town-like than you do
3) In some situations, they are, in Nexus' situation? Probably not
4) I'm sorry? I think he can react to it how he will, and he might not be too happy with me, but I'm pretty sure that he's the one that gets to get angry at me for using him as a tool. This sentence sounds a lot like you trying to discredit me. My reason for being pretty sure he's town is because of the "slips" he's making. They do seem more attributed to noobtown than to noobscum.
5) I'm talking in generalities, most of the time, people that will claim noob have very specific ways of acting.
6) I was giving you my whole perspective, he didn't overreact so much as I thought he would, but he still reacted enough to gain more suspicion, which didn't make it a failed attempt at catching scum

1. Keep going till you see the farm then take a right.
2. Right there, points above. I see no if's, or even considering in Nexus is town now that you've said your case against him was something you didn't believe in. Come on, point out a post where you said you honestly thought he was scum or even considered it. Come on, I'm waiting.
3. Thank you for letting me know. Why are these not tells in Nexus's situation.
4. Yeah, this is slightly off topic and doesn't really relate to how very much to how scummy someone is. I understand that it's part of the game and all but it was more that you were bragging about it like some big victory, almost as if you're looking down on him.
5. What? So you making generalities of thing that are situational or as you say "very specific"?
6. So you've caught the scum. Can you give me two names?