Mini 1003 Mafia - Game Over

[Tasky]

Tazaro, Espeonage and SV all were on both your and Chevre’s wagons late. If you are Town then I suspect that one or more of them were scum looking for any easy lynch target at the end of the day.

fair point... this matches with my current scumpicks too...

I don't think it's about the content. It looks like he wants to make us think about the night-kills, which isn't bad, I think.
What do you think? why are you asking me about that post in particular?

Stating that the best place to being looking for scum is in the Nightkills is scummy. Nightkill analysis is WIFOM-laden at best.

I asked you about it because you suddenly have a strong Town read on Tripod and wanted to get a sense of how that post factored into your read.

I don't think NK-analysis is necessarily bad... you see, if people start doing it, scum will be forced to adjust their Night Actions and can't play as straightforward as they'd like to... this is a hindrance for them and therefore good for town... but I don't think that particular post accomplished that, it was more about asking questions and as I said, no content... so I actually don't attribute any importance to that post... null-read...

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Well, it was a subtle point, but I do think scum have more interest in action than townies. Townies may be more uninterested.

uuuu_UU...
you sure about this? no action = no information... that's what scum wants...
if scum could choose, they wouldn't post at all, since that would avoid making slips... of course town should pressure people enough to make them talk...
I'd like to hear a response to this from you soon...

[nopointinactingup]

Been without Internet. Will catch up soon.

[Tazaro]

Well, it was a subtle point, but I do think scum have more interest in action than townies. Townies may be more uninterested.

uuuu_UU...
you sure about this? no action = no information... that's what scum wants...
if scum could choose, they wouldn't post at all, since that would avoid making slips... of course town should pressure people enough to make them talk...
I'd like to hear a response to this from you soon...

I'm going by how I like to play as scum and how others probably play. I'm eager to get a word in to perhaps manipulate people. Of course, it is true that scum do not want people to talk about the RIGHT information, but that's why they have the tactic of causing distractions. I don't think scum have to be seen as avoiding slips. It's pretty hard to make a slip if you are careful and explain yourself.

[Tazaro]

^actually I should have "I don't think scum have to been seen as afraid of slipping."

[Zang]

Votecount-

nopointinactingup - 1 - (MagnaofIllusion) (L-4)
Shattered Viewpoint - 1 - (Espeonage) (L-4)
Tasky - 2 - (Shattered Viewpoint, nopointinactingup) (L-3)
Espeonage - 3 - (Tazaro, Tasky, Untrod Tripod) (L-2)

Not Voting: redtail896, Quoi

5 to lynch

Deadline is August 16 at 9:30 pm EDT

[Untrod Tripod]

well, esp, what do you have to say for yourself?

[Espeonage]

I already said that Tazaro's case is based of reading my posts out of context.

[Tasky]

I already said that Tazaro's case is based of reading my posts out of context.

Tazaro's case isn't the only one though...

[Tazaro]

I already said that Tazaro's case is based of reading my posts out of context.

Tazaro's case isn't the only one though...

Exactly, Espeonage has to defend himself against the better cases, not mine.

[Tazaro]

Additional point: Is Espeonage a "she"?

[Tasky]

@ Tasky: I'll answer your case.

please do this...

[Espeonage]

Wait just realised I didn't do that.

Ok it's about 3 am here and I have to be up in a couple of hours so I'm going to go to bed. I will answer it at uni. If I have internet in my first lecture (probably not) then I will answer you then otherwise it will be when I get home so somewhere in between 13 - 16 hours from now.

[Tazaro]

Wait just realised I didn't do that.

Ok it's about 3 am here and I have to be up in a couple of hours so I'm going to go to bed. I will answer it at uni. If I have internet in my first lecture (probably not) then I will answer you then otherwise it will be when I get home so somewhere in between 13 - 16 hours from now.

ah, a professor

[redtail896]

Okay, sorry that "tonight" turned into "a couple of days." But, here are my 2 current large thoughts.

The Espeonage Wagon: So, can somebody provide be a basic summary. Most of it seems to be focused on Esp's flipping between Tasky and Chevre, and many of those posts Esp claims were taken out of context. Is the claim that Esp was rapidly flipping between 2 town wagons, trying to make one stick?

Tazaro: So, my view of Tazaro is inevitably colored by Equinox. Here's the thing: I thought Equinox was town. Even with Chevre's whole OMGUS being proven to

not

be scum flailing, I thought Equi was pretty solid town. But Tazaro has thrown that view for a whirl. Tazaro, despite posting quite a bit, rarely posts anything substantive. His votes never have a reason. Let's consider each of Tazaro's votes and their given justification.
Vote #1: Nopointinactingup

It's always the case that Tasky is seen as somewhat scummy. More votes on NoPoint for such things as his posts wherein there's cognitive dissonance? all right

Vote #2: Tasky

I think the case against Tasky is better than the case against nopoint:

Vote #3: Espeonage

Double Post: Mag, Tasky, and Untrod Tripod have indicated, by their posts, their belief in the plausibility of Espeonage being a bona fide suspect.

Of these 3, he probably most fleshes out the Tasky case with this post:

The thing that sells me on Tasky more likely being scum is based on meta. Tasky usually says a lot of stuff to qualify his moves, but in that post above, he voted Shattered Viewpoint based on liking your post, Untrod Tripod. Forgoing saying a lot of stuff to qualify his vote; that's not something that makes me see Tasky as sincere with that vote.

He later unvotes Tasky on the basis that it's unfair to be basing the vote mostly on meta. His Espeonage case leaves something to be desired as well. After the initial vote, he quotes two different statements by Espeonage that 1. as noted by Esp are rather taken out of context and 2. aren't in my opinion particularly scummy in any context.

I know we've debated quite a bit about Tasky's vote hopping early in D1 (and I'm not a fan of it). However, at least that was early in D1, when information is near non-existent. Here, while we certainly don't have tons of info, there's enough to make more of a case than this. And with regards to Equi, although I was rather convinced of his innocence, in a certain light I could certainly see him as scum (notably, as Magna listed in his vote analysis, if Tasky is town). I'm not convinced that Tazaro is really scumhunting at all; there's no real arguments or substance to his votes (with the exception of the Tasky meta-case, which was quickly abandoned (btw I don't see how a meta case is "unfair" at all)). So, I will VOTE: Tazaro

[Tazaro]

redtail: I said my input was undermined by me being green. You really think I'm doing these wishy-washy "I like this; no, I like this now, because I'm scum? I think only now are you opportunistically mentioning how Equi "could certainly see[n] ... as scum." This attacking of the weak player is a huge scum tell:

Unvote

VOTE: redtail

[Untrod Tripod]

redtail: I said my input was undermined by me being green. You really think I'm doing these wishy-washy "I like this; no, I like this now, because I'm scum? I think only now are you opportunistically mentioning how Equi "could certainly see[n] ... as scum." This attacking of the weak player is a huge scum tell:

Unvote

VOTE: redtail

this is called OMGUS

[Tazaro]

redtail: I said my input was undermined by me being green.

You really think I'm doing these wishy-washy "I like this; no, I like this now, because I'm scum? I think only now are you opportunistically mentioning how Equi "could certainly see[n] ... as scum." This attacking of the weak player is a huge scum tell:

Unvote

VOTE: redtail

this is called OMGUS

You're the one to give me faux compliments about my Espeonage quotes. I don't think I'll trust the intention behind this OMGUS claim. Any compliments about my

reasoning

for voting redtail that I emphasized by black bold? Hmm?

[Untrod Tripod]

redtail: I said my input was undermined by me being green

. You really think I'm doing these wishy-washy "I like this; no, I like this now, because I'm scum? I think only now are you opportunistically mentioning how Equi "could certainly see[n] ... as scum."

This attacking of the weak player

is a huge scum tell:

Unvote

VOTE: redtail

You replaced into a fairly pro-town slot (insofar as you can be pro town on the beginning of day two). And a cursory re-read would show you how much I *hate* the n00b defense. You decent point was sandwiched between two things that I don't like. Also you immediately voted for someone who voted for you. Being wishy-washy at this point is not real good. I mean, at least you owned up to it? I dunno, just keep posting content. I liked Equinox for town enough that I don't think you're scum at this point.

Incidentally, to all players: How do you feel about judging a replacement based on how the person they replaced played?

[redtail896]

redtail: I said my input was undermined by me being green. You really think I'm doing these wishy-washy "I like this; no, I like this now, because I'm scum? I think only now are you opportunistically mentioning how Equi "could certainly see[n] ... as scum." This attacking of the weak player is a huge scum tell:

Unvote

VOTE: redtail

First of all, as Untrod Tripod noted, this is OMGUS. For the record, I did consider your points when making up my case. But these are the conclusions I came to:
1. I'm sensitive to the claim that you're a newbie, but at the end of the day it's really not an excuse. We went through this with Chihuahua (and, to a lesser degree Lemon), and I was suspicious of him too. It's not the newbie-status; it's what I interpret to be scummy (Yeah, I know that Chihuahua flipped town, but I stand by my criticisms).

2. Yes, I'm only now mentioning how Equi "could certainly be seen as scum." It was your behavior that drove me to look back over Equinox and reexamine. I read his posts as both scum and town, and tried to explain both sides away. In the end, I can see Equi being scum, especially if Tasky flips town. Did I think this at the end of day 1? No, I did not. Due to your actions, my read on this spot has changed.

If we use Chihuahua as an example again, I strongly reconsidered my read based on nhammen's actions. At the time, I struggled with the same thing that we're addressing here: how much do you get to benefit or suffer from your predecessor's actions (remember, I'm a replacement here too). The answer I come to is that I prefer to address the player in front of me while keeping the previous player's actions as a loose guideline.

3. I don't buy the statement "This attacking of the weak player is a huge scum tell" for a second. Is it this particular attack that's a scumtell? If so, why? Are you saying that the general case is a scumtell? Then we can never attack a weak player that seems scummy to us. Can you further elaborate on this line?

[Tazaro]

Why do I think your attack is scummy, which I do believe it is?: Well, I think it is interesting that you attack me when Tasky and Espeonage are candidates for lynching, and it's also interesting that you attacked two newbs before as well. This seems to be your modus operandi, and I've seen it in other games. Don't pull the "Then we can NEVER attack a scummy weak player" line. It's not about never, it's about now. I want to see whether others here think I'm scummy.

[redtail896]

Why do I think your attack is scummy, which I do believe it is?: Well, I think it is interesting that you attack me when Tasky and Espeonage are candidates for lynching, and it's also interesting that you attacked two newbs before as well. This seems to be your modus operandi, and I've seen it in other games. Don't pull the "Then we can NEVER attack a scummy weak player" line. It's not about never, it's about now. I want to see whether others here think I'm scummy.

Yes, Tasky and Esp are the most popular candidates. You know my thoughts on both of them (Tasky I think to be scum, although not as much as you (and my thoughts on him/her might be beginning to change), and I want a clearer summary of the Esp case). Just because they have the most votes, I don't feel the need to necessarily vote for them, especially with the voting system in this game not requiring a majority. If I think somebody is scummy, I'll go for them.

As regards to my "modus operandi," I attacked Chihuahua because I thought he was scummy. I specifically

defended

Lemon on the basis that I thought s/he was newb town. I've attacked other players in this game that aren't newbies as well. It's not the defining feature of my playstyle, it's just what I see.

And as for "It's not about never, it's about now," I agree. But you still haven't explained why my attack was scummy. If it's about the now, then address the now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

omg... you are right...
I don't know how, but I was convinced that was about SV...

well, the point still holds so:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Espeonage

This is scummy. If the crux of your argument is solely that post then you should be bringing more to the table.

What town person says this?

Did you bother to read for context? Espeonage was posting the ‘I give up’ comment in conjunction with some sort of gambit / strategy he was trying to gather support for and was failing.

Well, it was a subtle point, but I do think scum have more interest in action than townies. Townies may be more uninterested.

Only if they are bad Townies. Please stop serving heaping bowls of WIFOM.

Regarding your Redtail vote – it is pure OMGUS. Saying that he is attacking a weak player is poor defense. You’ve personally erased every bit of positive view I had on the slot due to Equinox’s play.

What about Redtail’s vote (which is the only one, BTW) immediately makes him more scummy than Espeonage, who was your previous case de’jour? You have stated that he needed to defend against the stronger cases against him.

The Espeonage Wagon: So, can somebody provide be a basic summary. Most of it seems to be focused on Esp's flipping between Tasky and Chevre, and many of those posts Esp claims were taken out of context. Is the claim that Esp was rapidly flipping between 2 town wagons, trying to make one stick?

I can see Esp as being scum for two major points, 1 of which he really can’t defend against.

1. His predecessor Lemon’s over-the-top defense of Chi.
2. His placement on both late wagons (Chevre and Tasky), augmented by his reaction that I pointed out as waffling at the end of the day.

[Tazaro]

blarg blarg overreaction

Unvote

[Tazaro]

Back to my pre-redtail-vote state:

VOTE: Espeonage

[Tasky]

omg... you are right...
I don't know how, but I was convinced that was about SV...

well, the point still holds so:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Espeonage

This is scummy. If the crux of your argument is solely that post then you should be bringing more to the table.

I already posted that SV and Espeonage were my top suspects... UT's post made me go in one direction instead of the other.


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looking at Tazaro...
I think he is scum if and only if Espeonage is town.
And since I'm quite convinced Espeonage is scum, for now I don't think Tazaro is a good lynch.
I'm waiting to see Espeonage's answer to my case before deciding... (I'd ask all of you not to comment on that case until Espeonage has posted, so that he has to expose his own point of view)