Mafia 1013 - Prozacs Basic Theme - Game has ENDED

[xvart]

That still screams pressure vote in my opinion. Jack's attitude in this game certainly hasn't helped this cause either.

I agree, very scummy to try and get information out of unresponsive and unhelpful players.

Italicized emphasis mine. Flameaxe - what do you mean it is scummy to try and get information out of nonresponsive and unhelpful people? How is that scum motivated?

Given that the majority of his case is referring to the secret tell and the trap, I've already touched on both of them in previous posts.

You have? I saw a passing comment about the secret scum tell and nothing about the trap.

Can we PLEASE lynch him? He's too much of a wildcard to have around and he will give scum the win at lylo, if he isn't scum.

Begging for a lynch? Why are you absolutely certain that Jack will lose the game at LYLO if he is town?

xvart.

[Flameaxe]

That still screams pressure vote in my opinion. Jack's attitude in this game certainly hasn't helped this cause either.

I agree, very scummy to try and get information out of unresponsive and unhelpful players.

Italicized emphasis mine. Flameaxe - what do you mean it is scummy to try and get information out of nonresponsive and unhelpful people? How is that scum motivated?

Sorry, that was sarcasm. It's a tough habit to break when taking a sarcastic approach to life to text on a forum... I'll make sure to be more obvious next time.

Given that the majority of his case is referring to the secret tell and the trap, I've already touched on both of them in previous posts.

You have? I saw a passing comment about the secret scum tell and nothing about the trap.

Again, sorry. Half assed that post last night. Thought I did comment on it, guess I didn't. The same opinion does however apply for both of them.

Can we PLEASE lynch him? He's too much of a wildcard to have around and he will give scum the win at lylo, if he isn't scum.

Begging for a lynch? Why are you absolutely certain that Jack will lose the game at LYLO if he is town?

xvart.

Stealing your quote to comment on mallow's post too.

Mallow: That is a terrible, and fairly desperate approach to pushing a lynch. Welcome to jumping up my list a spot or two.

[Flameaxe]

Ps:

PROZAC:

I'm moving in the next couple of weeks to a new apartment near school. While I don't plan on moving up full time until the internet and cable is set up, obviously if issues arise I may not have access beyond my phone, which is sketchy at best. Putting it in thread so you players know too.

PPS: A Budja prod might be in order. It's been a while (Thursday to be exact for his last post).

[Anon]

llama heavily criticised the stances of Raivann and myself on BB. You are saying that criticism was really bad, and unlikely to come from town. I'm saying that simply isn't true - whatever anyone's personal opinion, it's obvious why someone would think that an argument which says smilies are scummy looks like a bit silly.

I think we are talking about different things here. my point is not about smilies. My point is that Llama thought people attacking BB for being so worried about his play were wrong. He went to call someone stupid to vote for you, iirc, for this. But then he said that there was some truth in this fact. Which shows flipfloping in his reasoning.

You are saying that just because I think llama's scummy, I should think everyone on his wagon is right about everything they say on him?

No. What I am saying is that when you think someone is scum you tend to avoid getting tangents in people agreeing with you. Even when I suspect you dont totally understand my case on llama.

[Anon]

FA and everyone: I think its very evident how using a more friendly playstyle benefits scumbags more than townies, specially when the player we are talking about has a meta of being an ass, REGARDLESS of alignment. Just that change of playstyle that benefits him more in the scum side of the spectrum is enough to maintain my suspicions on Flameaxe.

And Im not even talking about him leaving his gut out of this game, who is a common denominator in his town games.

I agree that leaving scum games out of my analysis is an apparent flaw but my point was not to use his scum meta and compare it to this one. My point was to prove that he has specifically changed his playstyle for this game (already proven in his own response) and that this benefits him more if he is scum.

Llama, stop being a VI. If you disagree with my posts, explain clearly why instead of using stupid phrases to prove your point. You are not even my top suspect.

Ill be back with a full response after my VLA.

Mod, VLA until Wednesday.

[Flameaxe]

FA and everyone: I think its very evident how using a more friendly playstyle benefits scumbags more than townies, specially when the player we are talking about has a meta of being an ass, REGARDLESS of alignment. Just that change of playstyle that benefits him more in the scum side of the spectrum is enough to maintain my suspicions on Flameaxe.

And Im not even talking about him leaving his gut out of this game, who is a common denominator in his town games.

I agree that leaving scum games out of my analysis is an apparent flaw but my point was not to use his scum meta and compare it to this one. My point was to prove that he has specifically changed his playstyle for this game (already proven in his own response) and that this benefits him more if he is scum.

Llama, stop being a VI. If you disagree with my posts, explain clearly why instead of using stupid phrases to prove your point. You are not even my top suspect.

Ill be back with a full response after my VLA.

Mod, VLA until Wednesday.

All I see here is that your case boils down to my playstyle change benefiting me more if I was scum, but nowhere in this entire case does it say WHY it makes me scum. Sure, lets say it does benefit more as scum (which really, it doesn't benefit me more either way), what part of that means that I am scum? It doesn't. As far as I can tell, a change of playstyle of this nature benefits me as town as well, as my original playstyle didn't help me either alignment. Believe it or not, being an ass in this game obviously didn't get me very far when I did play, from either side of the coin.

The only reason used only my town meta was in the form of saying my town meta was different than I am playing now.

Not only the town meta I remember from him has changed dramatically, it has changed from a caustic-one liners-USES GUT-fuck you meta towards a more calculating-vocal-USES REASONS-suckass meta, hinting a more calculating scum agenda in this game. I never saw a Flameaxe doing analysis of players similar to what he did some pages ago which is the first thing that made me thought Flameaxe could be scum here. Check for yourself.

This quote, in my honest opinion, uses the logic that my TOWN META has changed, hinting that I am scum in this game. While the logic here makes zero sense as is, I don't believe you are trying to say what you are referring to in your most recent post. Your original argument against me did not have the tone or apparent message you have now, not like your current message makes any more sense as a case.

If anything, this post only shows more flaws in your reasoning, and that you are making a huge assumption that is (as documented in thread) based on nothing. You even said that my former meta was present...

REGARDLESS of alignment.

yet you still see no reason to give any references beyond my town references.

In short (again!):
-Your case is now revealed as "I believe his playstyle change would benefit him more as scum, therefore he must be scum" which is a logic jump I find to be unacceptable in a game such as mafia.
-You agree that not bringing up scum references is a flaw in your argument, and then continue to point out that my meta of being an ass was in effect regardless of alignment. Making a case based on change of playstyle, only to use town references to reinforce your case, despite admitting that my being an ass meta was always turned on, seems extremely scummy to me. Not enough for number one though.
-Assumptions based on nothing in this thread, still. You have fourteen pages of content from me to go through, but your only "evidence" against me is from a game starting in late 2007 and my apparent meta from said game.

Schlep up.

PS: Because obviously Anon has no interest in showing any games of mine as scum, look up Doctor Who Mafia 2 (by Battle Mage). I'll dig up a link if I have time, but it was bad enough that I still remember it after all this time, so it must be pretty bad.

[Anon]

Flameaxe, who is your top suspect?

[Anon]

I seriously dont want to turn this into a battle of quotes TM. I seriously dont.

- You have accepted that you have changed playstyle. Ok Nulltell. My point is that this change of playstyle benefits you more in the scum agenda. Being an ass gathers you negative attention. Not being an ass gives you a free pass. This is not tell only applied to you. I dont even remember who your top suspects are.

- Flameaxe has acepted that he has used gut before. Obv as scum he would not use gut, so this tell only applies when he is town. He is not using gut in this game. Jumping to the conclusion that this change of approach makes him more likely scum than average is not illogical at all.

My case is there. Take it or leave it.

[Flameaxe]

Flameaxe, who is your top suspect?

Anon, who am I voting?

[Flameaxe]

I seriously dont want to turn this into a battle of quotes TM. I seriously dont.

I don't either, it's just easier to reply to a comment someone made by first quoting that comment. That's just me, feel free to not quote me back. I won't let it get too over-quotey though, that's just excessive.

- You have accepted that you have changed playstyle. Ok Nulltell. My point is that this change of playstyle benefits you more in the scum agenda. Being an ass gathers you negative attention. Not being an ass gives you a free pass. This is not tell only applied to you. I dont even remember who your top suspects are.

I accepted this a while ago when you first made your case. You have a nulltell that you are seeing as a scumtell. What doesn't make sense in this sentence? "Benefiting me more" also infers that it would also benefit me as town, but then again, you don't seem to talk about this side of the coin, only that it benefits me MORE. Please, enlighten me as to the pros and cons of my playstyle change from BOTH town and scum. The more you go down this road, the more shaky I believe this case of yours becomes.

Believe it or not, being an ass wasn't my only playstyle back then, how about those other playstyles of mine? The lurking for example. Is me not lurking nearly as much in this game a scumtell? Oh sorry, is it a nulltell that would benefit me more as scum? That seems to be a better road of logic in this universe...

If this is not the only tell applied to me, then you should be letting everyone know, otherwise I'll just call bullshit. If you come back with secret tell nonsense, I will also call bullshit. Be warned.

- Flameaxe has acepted that he has used gut before. Obv as scum he would not use gut, so this tell only applies when he is town. He is not using gut in this game. Jumping to the conclusion that this change of approach makes him more likely scum than average is not illogical at all.

I have not used gut in more games than just this. If something doesn't work you fix it, yes? If gut doesn't work, you try a different approach. What approach would you say I am taking from a neutral opinion?

My case is there. Take it or leave it.

I take it, and again point out that there is nothing from this game specifically that you use to reinforce any of your points.

[llamaeatataco]

I think we are talking about different things here. my point is not about smilies. My point is that Llama thought people attacking BB for being so worried about his play were wrong. He went to call someone stupid to vote for you, iirc, for this. But then he said that there was some truth in this fact. Which shows flipfloping in his reasoning.

wtf?

I'll try and figure this out...

1. I called someone stupid for voting 'you' (presumably Fishy, I'm also assuming the 'he' is me) because of some fact (I'm assuming it's the whole 'scum are more worried about appearances' thing).
2. I then said that that was partially true.

Well, from a logical standpoint that makes no sense at all, because those stances are the same. It also makes no sense from a factual standpoint, because I kept my vote on Fishy until I switched to Jack, and that was some time later. Also, I didn't call anyone voting Fishy stupid.

If we switch Fishy out for BB, it makes more sense.

As for sucking up i mean to the town in general like saying "hey don't worry about me I'm all loveable smiles" whilst you slit our throats in the night.

The hell? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard (no offense). There is a huge difference between liking a player and thinking they are town.

Is this what you are referring to?

That's the only thing I could find that even remotely fits the description, and it still makes little sense. I've already explained this one

@Fishy: My stance on you didn't change at all. I was clarifying. There was one shred of truth in all of the stupidity, and I was confirming its existence. The rest of it was still stupid.

So stfu and find something original.

No. What I am saying is that when you think someone is scum you tend to avoid getting tangents in people agreeing with you. Even when I suspect you dont totally understand my case on llama.

"I'm sheeping with you so you can't think I'm scummy." That might be not quite true, but it's close enough. Basically you are telling Fishy to COMPLETELY TUNNEL ON HIS TOP SCUM PICK. Ignore EVERYONE else on the wagon. This is a scum statement. Also, I don't think anyone completely understands your 'case.' We've already explained that your two quotes aren't related and you still keep trying to push the same lies down our throats.

FA and everyone: I think its very evident how using a more friendly playstyle benefits scumbags more than townies, specially when the player we are talking about has a meta of being an ass, REGARDLESS of alignment. Just that change of playstyle that benefits him more in the scum side of the spectrum is enough to maintain my suspicions on Flameaxe.

Hey, if it benefits me as town I'll do it as town, no matter how much it would also help me as scum. Pl0x to be stop one sidedness.

And Im not even talking about him leaving his gut out of this game, who is a common denominator in his town games.

That he sucked in. He's not sucking now.

I agree that leaving scum games out of my analysis is an apparent flaw but my point was not to use his scum meta and compare it to this one. My point was to prove that he has specifically changed his playstyle for this game (already proven in his own response) and that this benefits him more if he is scum.

It benefits him as town as well. How would YOU have changed your playstyle to benefit yourself as town more than as scum?

Llama, stop being a VI. If you disagree with my posts, explain clearly why instead of using stupid phrases to prove your point. You are not even my top suspect.

I do believe we have started overusing that accusation. I'm not being a VI, I'm being exasperated because you keep repeating arguments that have

already been refuted

. I'm not going to go to the trouble to quote my previous refutation when I can just laugh at you.

Also, in the most recent example, I was making snarky comments AFTER I had already proved you wrong. Fail less please.

FA and everyone: I think its very evident how using a more friendly playstyle benefits scumbags more than townies,

Actually, that was one of the points of contention earlier on in the day. Please to read thread?

I agree that leaving scum games out of my analysis is an apparent flaw but my point was not to use his scum meta and compare it to this one. My point was to prove that he has specifically changed his playstyle for this game (already proven in his own response) and that this benefits him more if he is scum.

But you also must prove that it doesn't benefit him as town. You're halfway there! But you aren't even that far. You haven't proved any of your assertions. There's a difference between being overly friendly and just being normal. FA has gone from being a jerk to being normal. If he was like he is now and then switched to being extremely... diplomatic, then I might agree with you. But even then, being diplomatic and being friendly are different. I don't have to be a jerk when I call you on your stupidity, I just do it because it comes naturally and I'm too lazy to reword things in a friendly manner. But I could also be a jerk but not call you on your scummy moves. Just look at Jack.

I seriously dont want to turn this into a battle of quotes TM. I seriously dont.

Quotes are good. They help us see what the hell you're talking about when you make posts like 328 (you didn't use quotes there... It made me sad) and they make it harder for scum to strawman (and they keep townies from accidentally doing the same ).

ou have accepted that you have changed playstyle. Ok Nulltell. My point is that this change of playstyle benefits you more in the scum agenda. Being an ass gathers you negative attention. Not being an ass gives you a free pass. This is not tell only applied to you. I dont even remember who your top suspects are.

K it's a nulltell, now we're done with this crap. Oh wait, now we're back at it again. It benefits him as both town and scum. Sure scum doesn't want negative attention, but town should also want to

help scumhunt

. You can't do that if you're just being an ass at all times. If you think being a townie is just about not getting lynched, you're wrong. In addition, while staying out of the spotlight is helpful for scum,

catching scum is absolutely vital for town

. Do you believe FA could have done that consistently the way he played 2 years ago? Do you think the town would have listened to him? Now that I think about it, This shift actually helps town more than scum.

- Flameaxe has acepted that he has used gut before. Obv as scum he would not use gut, so this tell only applies when he is town. He is not using gut in this game. Jumping to the conclusion that this change of approach makes him more likely scum than average is not illogical at all.

You're just assuming this? Because we all know you haven't read one of his scum games. Hell, I haven't even read one of his scum games. I'm gonna go look up that one now to see if you absurdly lazy leap of logic happens to be correct.

Fishy, you should now compare my attack of his laziness to my own laziness, kthx.
...

I found Doctor Who Mafia 2, but the link was broken. Apparently Tar was in that game? At any rate, it seems to have been a large theme.

Well, that didn't work. I guess I'll take Anon's and FA's word for it? Or is there a better way to search for games than Google? I tried the forum's search, but got nothing for a half dozen different variations.

My case is there. Take it or leave it.

I do believe I just took it and had my way with it. Are you sure you want it back?

@Town: Opinion on Anon. Nao. I want an updated opinion after this last page especially.

[Jack]

Not scummy.

[Flameaxe]

Doctor Who 2

Hard to find anything without brute force with the archives, but there it is.

[StrangerCoug]

So stfu and find something original.

Do

NOT

instruct people to shut up. It's bad enough you're in my top three already.

@Town: Opinion on Anon. Nao. I want an updated opinion after this last page especially.

Anon's fine.

[Budja]

Ouch. Delurking now.

The case on Flamaxe makes no sense to me. He seems to me to have a more pro-town playstyle than the last (albeit brief) time I played with him before but the point that it makes him scum doesn't connect.
(only skimmed the last page or two, on the edge with Anon, Jack's read took a hit but still leaning town.)

[Fishythefish]

*Antiprod/promise of content within 12 hours*

[xvart]

Alrighty; the time has come. I'm having reconstructive surgery on my shoulder tomorrow morning. I will more than likely not be able to post at all tomorrow, and depending on the pain meds and how the surgery goes I might not be able to make a quality post for a couple days after.

V/LA: August 10 - August 13

I'll try and get a final post in tonight but I wanted to get this done now just in case.

xvart.

[mallowgeno]

Not scummy.

Needs to go ^

[llamaeatataco]

Do NOT instruct people to shut up. It's bad enough you're in my top three already.

And what would be the problem with telling people to stop repeating outdated points?

[Raivann]

Anon is prob town.
My reads haven't changed. I think the best case made so far is xvarts on BB.

[Flameaxe]

Alrighty; the time has come. I'm having reconstructive surgery on my shoulder tomorrow morning. I will more than likely not be able to post at all tomorrow, and depending on the pain meds and how the surgery goes I might not be able to make a quality post for a couple days after.

V/LA: August 10 - August 13

I'll try and get a final post in tonight but I wanted to get this done now just in case.

xvart.

Hopefully everything goes alright!

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

I like Anon as town. However, Mallow's last post ups my scum read on him. I don't care if the wagon isn't going anywhere.

Vote: mallow

Llama is going up too. His tone is becoming more aggressive and defensive.

[Flameaxe]

Anon is prob town.
My reads haven't changed. I think the best case made so far is xvarts on BB.

The best case in the game according to you arises, and yet you still hang on to a silly OMGUS vote.

[Fishythefish]

Of the people who seem to be getting some attention:
- I see little reason to think mallow, Jack or Flameaxe is scum.
- I don't like Anon's cases. The one on llama feels like he hasn't really read and thought about the llama/me/BB/etc. interaction hard, and the one on Flameaxe is based on very old meta, and Flame not making gut reads yet in this game. These are scumtells of a kind - both seem marginally more likely from scum - but in both cases there are perfectly good protown explanation for Flame's actions, and the point seem nearly null. They're just not the kind of things I can see someone basing a read off.
- I didn't like llama's play near the start, and have no real read on his recent posts.
- BB: I'm a bit sceptical about his claim to have been trying to look vulnerable by talking about an unusual playstyle. But generally my gut says he's town; his posts read like he believes what he's saying.

[Porochaz]

Llama - 2 - Budja, Fishythefish,
Jack - 2 - Mallowgeno, Strangercoug
Anon - 2 - Llama, Blackberry
Flameaxe - 2 - Anon, Raivann
Blackberry - 1 - xvart
Raivan - 1 - Flameaxe
Strangercoug - 1 - Jack
mallow - 1 - mitsuru

Deadline August the 17th