Open 238: Trendy and Subversive Game Over

[millar13]

MOD: Request replacement

i honestly dont understand this game at all

[podium123456]

If what you're saying is that I should've discarded that whole effort just to prevent you from claiming - perhaps, but I still think we gained a lot of info that way.

Uhhh... yeah. I think i made this pretty clear. Whatever little scheme you were working on wouldn't take priority over an unneccessary claim. The only people that really benefit from claims are scum... as only they know the truth. You act like you were on a top secret mission for the FBI and couldnt risk blowing your cover, so you had to go along and ask for a claim. Puleahse.

But you could at lest try to understand how such a ploy should have worked in theory, in the hipothetical case it was actually there (which is what I'm claiming).

Of course a gambit could be useful... i never said that it wouldnt, or that i didnt understand the concept. The point is everything i pointed out is behavior even a gambit'ing townie wouldn't do (yes yes, imo... but still i think it would fit lots of people's opinion). Logically, and risk-wise. Anyway i'm not going to change your mind, and you aren't mine. I simply dont buy it. And if you are town, i think you should rethink your gambit'ing strategy.

I would like to hear others thoughts on it... we've stolen enough of the show.

[TeeJay]

Okay then, I see things progressing nicely.

I think we've reaped enough from the podium thing for me to come clean: I wasn't intending to actually lynch you. I started off saying everything honestly, but as it went I, well, exaggerated somewhat for effect, to make it seem more like everybody's ready to lynch you right then and there. (Although in retrospect, asking you to claim might have been a little too much.)

I still keep my eye on you and still think you reacted a bit more harshly than necessary, but not quite as much as I made it look I thought.

But the whole affair wasn't for nothing, there's quite some benefit.

1) I'm pretty sure sawyer is town. He was voting for you and could've gone on with a really easy lynch, but instead chose to unvote and rethink his stance. I really like that.

2) I really don't like how teejay played through this. First he says he's ready to HAMMER, on page 4! But then he sees the wagon is waning and the wind is blowing elsewhere, and suddenly he buckles. Suddenly it's too early to lynch. It really looks like teejay is trying to go with what's popular. He saw that apparently podium was going down - and he was ready to hammer him. But then people are starting to hesitate, sawyer unvotes, and suddenly he remembers it's too early for a lynch and even admits he was tunneling... only to present a backhanded accusation against me in the process. Nice work there.
Then he moves to another easy target - even though now podium only has one vote on him, so if he considered podium so suspicious, why not place a vote there?

Millar and mallow are also playing horribly (or not playing at all), and will need to be removed, though I'd be hoping for replacements, myself. I don't think votes will help here.

So, yeah, my vote is right where it belongs.


P.S. Haven't had the time to look up teejay's older games yet. Will get to it now, I think.

So let me get this straight. You planned this wonderful sting operation and caught me red handed.

On what grounds are you basing your idea that I was going for what's popular? There was one vote on Podium when I started questioning him, hardly popular. There was little to no opposition (other than a small post from sawyer and Podium himself) to Podium being lynched when I backed off and cleared my head. You said that when I saw people were hesitating, I backed off. Question, who was hesitating?

My comment about you wasn't a back hand but was merely a question about an analysis on me.

Why am I not voting Podium, simple, he was already close to being lynched, my vote wont do much their. Furthermore, after reading up on millar, I find him to be a good candidate.

Enough about me.

While the 'Sting Op.' ploy sounds great, it reminds me of fast food. Looks good on the board, but once you get it, you wish you went somewhere else. The idea of bringing someone to L-1 for the sake of a ruse is highly unintelligent. It doesn't add up.

[TeeJay]

MOD: Request replacement

i honestly dont understand this game at all

What?

someone sees you as scummy and you high tale out of here?

[ODDin]

Podium: I can accept that perhaps I should've scrapped it in favour of you not claiming. I don't think it's that clear cut, but okay. Other than that, you're basically accusing me of being a good acor.

TeeJay: See, you were accusing podium, but you didn't place a vote there. Throwing around accusations without actually voting is not dedicating yourself to a case. Scum will often do that, because you're playing and participating and scumhunting, and you also keep all doors open for you. If he flips scum - sure, you were accusing him. If he flips town - well, you were accusing him but you didn't actually vote for him. Either way, safe. You only expressed desire to vote when it seemed that everybody was along for that lynch - in that situation, even if he flipped town, no suspicion would fall on you, since everybody was there.
The moment it dies down, you turn elsewhere. From "ready to hammer" you moved to "not even important enough to vote for."

Also, you should be happy for millar's replacing out. I am. He wasn't playing and wasn't paying attention at all. It wasn't even active lurking, it was just lurking and not participating. I don't think it's indicative of alignment - both town and scum do that (sadly). So having and active and participating player here instead will help, and we won't need to lynch a player just because he isn't doing anything.

[mallowgeno]

*sigh* I'm not usually an active lurker. I'm just in too many games right now. I will never do more than 2 at one time again. I know I'm not a very good scum hunter. That's why I am usually lynched by the town day 1 or day 2.

unvote

I want to see what the replacement has to say. I do think that ODDin was legit when he said he didn't intend on lynching you Podium. I feel that he is town with the way that he posts. I still think that Podium could be scum.

[jmj3000]

Ask your friends, help me find a replacement.

[podium123456]

I do think that ODDin was legit when he said he didn't intend on lynching you Podium. I feel that he is town with the way that he posts. I still think that Podium could be scum.

No offense, but based on your input here (as well as your own admission that you are poor at scumhunting) i'm not going to put much stock into your analysis of things. Especially when what i am talking about requires a good grasp of town/scum gameplay... to be able to cut through what's presented on the surface, and analyze the underlying motivations.

I would like to here (in your own words) the reasons you think i am scum.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

will add more later, once i have some more time

[ODDin]

mallow: I don't get it. Do you still think podium is scum or not?
If you do, why have you unvoted? After all, your vote is the only vote on him right now, so he's in no imminent danger of being lynched.
If you don't... why and when have you changed your mind?

[mallowgeno]

@ ODDin-I had my vote on millar

@ Podium-Fair enough

[ODDin]

Oops. My bad.

[TeeJay]

TeeJay: See, you were accusing podium, but you didn't place a vote there. Throwing around accusations without actually voting is not dedicating yourself to a case. Scum will often do that, because you're playing and participating and scumhunting, and you also keep all doors open for you. If he flips scum - sure, you were accusing him. If he flips town - well, you were accusing him but you didn't actually vote for him. Either way, safe. You only expressed desire to vote when it seemed that everybody was along for that lynch - in that situation, even if he flipped town, no suspicion would fall on you, since everybody was there.
The moment it dies down, you turn elsewhere. From "ready to hammer" you moved to "not even important enough to vote for."

I have to tell you, I'm flattered that you think that I plan that in-depth. I haven't played in a year. Do you really think that I planned out a wishy-washy front? I would like to mention that your argument is hypothetical, and a theory at best (this is not to say that it ought to be dismissed, but that you'll need more than a hypothesis).

As an aside (and this may sound a bit WIFOMish): but the truth of the matter is, the last position I would want to take as scum would be a wishy-washy character. They get lynched too quickly.

I didn't place my vote on Podium because it would have lynched him. Something that, while it sounded great, was something I needed to at least think about.

As for me throwing around accusation without being committed... I have pointed out 2 people, one who was at L-1, and thus I didn't vote for, the other I voted for. In light of these facts, I don't really understand your statement that I am throwing around accusations w/o being committed.

[jmj3000]

Official Vote Count #5 of Day 1

Players needed to lynch: 4

mallowgeno

- 2 - gonnano, TeeJay - (L-2)

ODDin

- 1 - podium123456 - (L-3)

podium123456

- 1 - millar13 - (L-3)

TeeJay

- 1 - ODDin - (L-3)

Players not voting: mallowgeno, Sawyer

Prodded: Gonnano

Seeking a replacement for millar.

[Sawyer]

@ODDin, I'm not gonna just believe that you never intended on lynching him. You asked him to claim and expressed your intent to go through with the lynch in a single post, then later asked for him to claim again. TJ said he was ready to hammer and he could have without you criticizing him for it (he started the Podium questioning), because you stated you were ok with it. I'm not letting anyone else off the hook for asking for a claim, but it seems you were pushing for it more than anyone. I'm not saying it's certain you're scum, due to reason I don't want to risk explaining since it's related to an ongoing game, but I wouldn't be surprised if you were.

I was willing to hammer. I had gotten done reading a heavily heated debate between Oddin and you and was caught up in the excitement of it all. After a few hours of removing myself, I found that it wasn't an intelligent idea because of the fact that you were the only one that had been really evaluated, and because it was only page 4. It was a pathetic action, of which I have no argument other than getting caught up in the action.

And that is hardly a good, if believable, reason to hammer. I'm not buying that you just got "caught up in the excitement".

Pertaining to getting you to claim, again, this was said in the context of a heated debate, ruled by emotion rather than logic. I had no intent on getting anything for Scum, I was fully intent in lynching on Sunday when I had posted.

Again, that's a bad excuse, but you say you were ruled by emotion rather than logic? The same the Podium's been being called scummy for? That seems awfully hypocritical of you. That's another reason why you shouldn't be let off the hook.

Though I completely agree with your post 137.

I didn't place my vote on Podium because it would have lynched him. Something that, while it sounded great, was something I needed to at least think about.

Uhhh...

ODDin,

I very much would like to hammer

, but before I do, I would like to wait for Sawyer and (I forget his name) to post
...
Podium, please claim.

Sounds like a contradiction to me.

Right now, it's hard for me to say who's more suspicious, ODDin or Teejay. ODDin could be town that planned his tunnel on Podium, but it's hard to say. So with ODDin, it's all or nothing, but TJ has more against him. My suspicion of Podium was a lot at the time I voted him, but not compared to now. And I'll have to wait for Mallow to post a little more to get a clear read.

[ODDin]

TeeJay: You started accusing podium when there was only 1 vote on him, but you didn't vote yourself. That's why I'm saying you weren't committed. You wouldn't have lynched him then, you would've just placed a second vote, but you didn't. You only expressed willingness to vote when he was at L-1. The way I interpret it is that you were only willing to vote when you saw everybody was okay with it and you wouldn't be blamed if it turned out podium was town.

And you didn't answer the following: you were practically ready to hammer podium. That means you *really* thought he was scum. But then, when the wagon on him died down, you moved to mallow. What happened to your suspicion of podium? After all, you can now vote for him safely, if you think he's the scummiest person around. Or do you think mallow is scummier than podium?

[podium123456]

TJ, why wont you answer the question i asked you in post 138? This is the third time i have had to ask you to answer it.

[TeeJay]

[quote="Sawyer]

I didn't place my vote on Podium because it would have lynched him. Something that, while it sounded great, was something I needed to at least think about.

Uhhh...

ODDin,

I very much would like to hammer

, but before I do, I would like to wait for Sawyer and (I forget his name) to post
...
Podium, please claim.

Sounds like a contradiction to me.[/quote]

It's not. I did want to lynch him, but I needed to think about it before I did. Hence the second post saying that I would like to wait. Hence there not being a contradiction.

[TeeJay]

TeeJay: You started accusing podium when there was only 1 vote on him, but you didn't vote yourself. That's why I'm saying you weren't committed. You wouldn't have lynched him then, you would've just placed a second vote, but you didn't. You only expressed willingness to vote when he was at L-1. The way I interpret it is that you were only willing to vote when you saw everybody was okay with it and you wouldn't be blamed if it turned out podium was town.

And you didn't answer the following: you were practically ready to hammer podium. That means you *really* thought he was scum. But then, when the wagon on him died down, you moved to mallow. What happened to your suspicion of podium? After all, you can now vote for him safely, if you think he's the scummiest person around. Or do you think mallow is scummier than podium?

At the time I started accusing podium he was not suspicious enough for me to warrant a vote. As the arguments ensued, my mind changed. This has nothing to do with commitment. It was when he was at L-1 that I found him suspicious.

I would like to mention that you did the same thing as your accusing me of in the second paragraph.

[ODDin]

At the time I started accusing podium he was not suspicious enough for me to warrant a vote. As the arguments ensued, my mind changed. This has nothing to do with commitment. It was when he was at L-1 that I found him suspicious.

Convenient, and I don't really believe you, but possible.

I would like to mention that you did the same thing as your accusing me of in the second paragraph.

I explained my actions - you're free not to believe my explanation, but I provided one. You did not.
Also, there's no accusation in the second paragraph to begin with, that's the way YOU interpret it. I just asked you to explain your stance on podium and how and why it changed. Curious that you choose not to answer.

[TeeJay]

At the time I started accusing podium he was not suspicious enough for me to warrant a vote. As the arguments ensued, my mind changed. This has nothing to do with commitment. It was when he was at L-1 that I found him suspicious.

Convenient, and I don't really believe you, but possible.

I would like to mention that you did the same thing as your accusing me of in the second paragraph.

I explained my actions - you're free not to believe my explanation, but I provided one. You did not.
Also, there's no accusation in the second paragraph to begin with, that's the way YOU interpret it. I just asked you to explain your stance on podium and how and why it changed. Curious that you choose not to answer.

It was the second page when I posted my accusations (maybe first, I have to check again). Hardly enough time to figure him out (I know pg 4 isn't a whole lot better). I don't know why you would believe otherwise. My statements were made to poke at the coals to see if anything would ignite (which is exactly what happened).

Crap. Part of my post was deleted. Just a sec.

[TeeJay]

I explained my actions - you're free not to believe my explanation, but I provided one. You did not.
Also, there's no accusation in the second paragraph to begin with, that's the way YOU interpret it. I just asked you to explain your stance on podium and how and why it changed. Curious that you choose not to answer.

I somehow deleted my response. Here it is again:

I have explained my actions. post #135, #152, and #161. As to the answer your recent question, I accidently deleted that. I still believe Podium to be scummy but found that my vote would be even more useful on Mallow considering that Podium has already been pressured. This is merely a rehash of what was already written.

So you are saying that people dont respond to a scum accusation until they have about three votes? Sorry, i dont believe that. As a matter of fact, from my experience, NOT responding to it would result in people accusing the accused of avoiding the issue.

There are 2 reasons why I didn't respond to you. 1) I thought I already had so I ignored you because I hate repeating myself. 2) Because I never said that you shouldn't respond. This is what I have been saying:

I am not saying that people should ignore accusations. I never said that nor would I. What I am saying is that most people would not react the

way

you did.

[podium123456]

I am not saying that people should ignore accusations. I never said that nor would I. What I am saying is that most people would not react the

way

you did.

The only thing i did was respond to the accusation (like you said is acceptable), and place a vote. (other players have said the vote/reaction was justified/normal).

I will admit it is a little unusual to have serious votes/accusations on the second page of a game, so i understand your first impression that i was moving too quickly. But my point is that if you break down everything i did, my reaction wasn't particularly noteworthy/suspicious.

[TeeJay]

It was too defensive, which is why I prodded you. To see if there was anything there.

[podium123456]

Actually, your initial accusation was that i got defensive too quick... not that it was too defensive. Later, you once described it as over reacting.

Regardless, I repeat: I responded to the accusation (which you said was understandable), and placed a vote based on the scumminess of his actions. What part of that was too defensive?

[mallowgeno]

Grah idk who to believe anymore >.<