Open 239 - C9++

[Ythan]

My original intention was to have a vote count at the top of each page.

Mafuyu (0):
Fate (2): animorpherv1, drmyshottyizsik
animorpherv1 (2): Andrius, Nobody Special
Ythill (0):
nhammen (0):
drmyshottyizsik (3): Fishythefish, Mafuyu, AGar
Fishythefish (1): Ythill
Andrius (0):
Nobody Special (2): nhammen, Fate
Unsight (0):
AGar (1): Unsight

not voting (0):

With 11 alive it's 6 to lynch. Deadline is August 12 at 11:59pm EST.

[AGar]

Ythan, master of the votecount.

[Fate]

@Fate: In post 208, you said we were not getting out of the day without a drmy lynch. You recently unvoted him. What changed?

Nobody did the impossible and became scummier than drmy. And since I'm more sure about NS scum right now, and his interaction with the drmy wagon is "oh he's retarded and scummy etc. etc. I'll go over here with my vote die lurker!" I'm more inclined to think, reluctantly, drmy is town.

ANIMORPH IS POSTIN IN OTHER GAMES THOUGH AND IM GETTING MOAR AND MOAR PISSED.

[Ythill]

End of Ythill's 270 - It is ROLE speculation though, which I did mention.

Who's role did I speculate about? Reck's role was confirmed and he's the only one I mentioned.

You haven't said anything to show I'm not interested in people's alignments.

You haven't said anything to show that you are. Your questions to me are pointless. Compare your own play to that of Fate and AGar: that should answer all of them.

@Fate:

I'm liking your posts in this game and I wouldn't be entirely opposed to a NS wagon because my read on him is fluctating around neutral at this point. However, now that you're seeing things my way regarding shotty, please check out Fishy's iso and consider joining me over here.

@Unsight:

I don't think your AGar vote is going anywhere. Though I'm tempted to OMGUS by what looks like a misrep of my early game, the majority of his play makes him look town to me. Please move your vote. I'd prefer if you moved it to Fishy, obv, but I'd be satisfied if you added steam to any of the wagons.

@Shotty:

Fate's attacks on you were overt. He was scumhunting before them, and is exploring other theories now. I do understand the temptation to OMGUS but, if you're looking for scum on your wagon, it's Fishy. Please move your vote to him (or to NS).

[Fishythefish]

I dislike NS's play. Attacking an action of a player at L-2 as "very scummy", for a reason that isn't a scumtell, and then voting a lurker, does seem like he wanted to be in a position to vote if he needed to. Calling on his lurker-lynching meta is beside the point, because I very much doubt he has a meta of going after lurkers when there is a wagon on someone he finds scummy.

His qualifications when commenting on Ythill's setup comments also don't sit well with me:

Maybe it's because I'm suffering set-up fatigue, but I just cannot glean how you "know" we're dealing with 3 mafia. I agree that setup speculation is worthless to a point; but you've either got brilliant insight here or you've just slipped. (And, as I said, I may be blinded because I just spent days setting up a game from this same schema. Humour me.)

Feels like he knows he's wrong and/or he doesn't want to antagonise Ythill.

I'm also getting a gut-ish scumread on Andrius. He's posted a lot of words, and done remarkably little that could lead to confrontation of any kind.

[Nobody Special]

I don't really care what you 'think' my meta is (it's readily available) but I do tend to vote lurkers

until

someone scummier shows up.

And I stand by my opinion that Ythill is either brilliant or scum.

[Fishythefish]

But from your posts, you thought there

was

someone scummy in the game. drmy. So your vote for a lurker looks like it was somewhere to park your vote to see how the drmy wagon progressed, while you voiced suspicion so you could hop on later.

[Nobody Special]

Thank you for that insightful, yet totally useless, analysis.

[Ythill]

Ohey look who's scumhunting.

@NS:

You know I'm brilliant, what does that have to do with my alignment?

UNVOTE: Fishy
VOTE: Nobody Special

I'm headed out to work in a bit, and I'd like to have some exciting reading material when I get home. This does

not

mean that Fishy is off the hook.

[Nobody Special]

What the hell, people.

[Mafuyu]

Mafuyu's getting an NS-fishy feel, with possibly a hint of Agar. Vote counts, feather-light bussing, and fishy's repeating the same point [scumminess factor regarding docshotvote] to Ythill about 4 times before moving on to, guess what, lightly attacking NS.

Unvote Vote Fishy

[drmyshottyizsik]

Unvote
Vote: Fishy

I see where you are coming from Ythill but I also think Agar is scumish

[AGar]

I seem to be a common denominator, but I have no wagon.

Does not compute.

Consistency, people. Consistency.

[Fate]

Unvote
Vote: Fishy

I see where you are coming from Ythill but I also think Agar is scumish

....

[Fate]

YTHILL

Have you seen the light?

Can my NS/Drmy pairing be any more plausible with my Fishy town read?

[Fate]

The first gives me good vibes from Fishy because I think he's right in his read of you and your being clouded.
The second reinforces my town read of AGAR so w're good there still.

^Why I don't support the Fishy wagon, ftr.

Sure he's set-up speculated, but haven't we ALL? There's more to his posts than just that and I see a coherent line of thought from his posts one to the next.

WHEREAS MR. DRMY DOES WHAT HE PLEASES AND SAYS "oh hai im mislynch bait, dont lynch me" and NOBODYSPECIAL IS SOMEBODY'S SCUMBUDDY SAYIN THINGS LIKE: "Oh hai guys you can meta me I vote lurkers all the time." (which was also called out by fishy here:

But from your posts, you thought there

was

someone scummy in the game. drmy. So your vote for a lurker looks like it was somewhere to park your vote to see how the drmy wagon progressed, while you voiced suspicion so you could hop on later.

[Fate]

MY QUESTIONS IN #269 REMAIN UNANSWERED AND MY RAGE REMAINS UNQUELLED, NOBODY

[nhammen]

This would be a horrendously stupid move to make. That's like a game I was scum in, where all the scum wagonn'ed Player A while the town, with no scum help, lynched Player B. Player A claimed Vig and we all got lynched every day after that.

And yet, scum still did it. It happens. Whether something is stupid, from either scum or town, doesn't matter. It is whether there is motivation for scum to do it that matters. However, I do not think that this occurred this time.

@drmy: you are not scummy for building a case. You are scummy for building a

really bad

case. Similarly, you are not scummy for bringing someone to L-1. You are scummy for bringing someone to L-1 with a really bad case. That makes me think that you wanted to vote Maf, and so looked for an excuse to do so, rather than genuinely finding her scummy.

Earlier, you said "If it wasn't for the situation at the time, I would think that it was an awful voting post, and not really know whether it was VI or scum. But since it put a player at L-1, I'm inclined to think the reason that voting post was so awful was that the starting point was "vote: Maf", and the argument was constructed afterwards." The earlier quote looks like L-1 was the deciding factor, but the new quote looks like the bad case is the deciding factor.

Yes, that should be clearer. shotty did things which scum have a motive to do, and which can can from either town or scum being stupid. So they would be scummy to some extent whether or not it was an L-1 vote. If it had been the first vote on a wagon, that scum motive would be weak and so it would be closer to null. But the timing of the vote makes that scummy motive a

lot

stronger, and the post correspondingly a lot scummier.

And now it's back to L-1 being the deciding factor. Although this explanation is a lot more well reasoned. I'm not sure what to think about this. On the one hand, this could be scum starting with a vote and then looking for an explanation later. On the other, this could be pressure forcing a Town player to clarify their position.

I'm not doing much scumhunting mostly because I'm pretty sure I've found scum. I should get some more reads though, and I intend to do that in the next few hours.

If you are Town, this is bad. Terribad.

I struggle to see what you mean by "opportunism" that applies to my casting a second vote for dr and doesn't apply much, much better in dr casting a terrible L-1 vote.

This is good however. Misunderstanding a few pieces of what Ythill has said, but still good effort.

@Andrius:

Could have been != was. Think about this, if I was as accepting as you were, she'd still be unclaimed and uber-scummy right now. And, apparently, you'd be okay with that.

Must. Resist. Urge. To rejoin this debate. Although, I do have to say one thing. After all of the Mafuyu stuff, I had been starting to find Andrius Town. But then I realized I was only doing this because his viewpoint on all of this almost exactly matches mine. And opinion on theory does not correlate with alignment.

Agar voted drmy (176). drmy claimed (190). In 204 Agar explains his vote, but the reasons are both things that had happened since 176. This reads like Agar had forgotten the reasoning for his vote, and had to go back and find another one.
@Agar: why did you originally vote drmy? And why didn’t you bring those reasons up in 204?

I don’t really have any idea who Unsight, Ns, Andrius or ani think are scum, and I’d like to know.

@Unsight: why are you voting Agar?

Andrius has posted an awful lot while saying very little. More like he wants to seem like he’s contributing than that he actually wants to find scum.

Good stuff! Really good stuff. Why didn't you mention me? I haven't issued a strong opinion of anybody yet. Also, what is your opinion of Fate?

I firmly believe in Lynch All Lurkers. Deal with it.

Prove it. Show me a completed game, where you were Town, and espoused this opinion.

And what reactions are those?

The kind that tell me he's scum. Mainly, a claim without provocation and pointing out that he will be a mislynch, so we should lynch X next. Also, skimming, which I already mentioned why I believe in context is indicative of his alignment.

Also, I'm not sure why you're voting me, but I really don't care either. If you want to plant a vote on me for a while, go for it.

Although #262 is a great post. You think FTF is scummy, you don't mention me being scummy, but you have your vote planted on me.

End of Ythill's 270 - It is ROLE speculation though, which I did mention.

NS - Why so adamant about LALurkers when lurking has been proven to be null of any alignment indications?
Andrius, why are you willing to try to wagon a lurker, as well?

scummy vibes... Every line except the last provides scummy vibes.

About your arguments on why scum would have moved to drmy after Maf claimed. I don't understand:
1) Why they don't apply equally well to "town who think drmy's vote was crap" as to "scum".
2) Why they apply any better to me than anyone else on the wagon.

I can't speak for Ythill on 2, but for 1, any argument in favor of scum can also be applied to town that just happened to vote this way. Otherwise, the game would be easy!

[Fate]

Nhammen why don't you love me?

[Fishythefish]

Thank you for that insightful, yet totally useless, analysis.

I am saying your play made no sense. If you are town, your play did made sense, and you know why, and you should be able to tell me why. Not make this completely pointless post.

Mafuyu's getting an NS-fishy feel, with possibly a hint of Agar. Vote counts, feather-light bussing, and fishy's repeating the same point [scumminess factor regarding docshotvote] to Ythill about 4 times before moving on to, guess what, lightly attacking NS.

Unvote Vote Fishy

I repeated that point because I never understood his answer to the question "is there anything scummy about me other than you disagreeing with my vote?". What do you mean by vote counts? Assuming something is bussing when you know neither of our alignments and have no justification is ridiculous confirmation bias.

@drmy: I'd you like you to say why you think I'm scum.

@nhammen: I'm not going to go back and look at my posts right now, but in my head my position on drmy has always been "contrived vote at critical time on wagon = scum". It may be that some posts have emphasised one of "contrived" and "critical time on wagon" more than the other, probably depending on what I was answering at the time.

I agree that sitting on one read is bad, and I apologise for it. I never really made a concious decision to do so, it was just laziness, fuelled by thinking I'd found scum. I'm trying to sort that out now. I don't have much of a read on Fate; I see nothing to make me think he's scum.

tbh, I didn't mention you because I reread the whole game, and then I reread people in iso when I was making that list of people I'd really like to see some more content from to get a read on. You aren't on that list because I already have a 99% strong read on you. Naturally, I'd still like to know your thoughts on people, but one of the two reasons for getting those thoughts isn't there.

For the last point; it really comes back to the issue of whether Ythill finds my vote scummy beyond the fact that he thinks it was a bad vote. He seems to, but I have no idea why.

@Agar: what do you mean by you being "the common denominator"? I asked you why you originally voted Ythill, and you said wagon driving. But when explaining you read on him for the first time, you didn't mention that at all. Why not?

Also noticed this from Andrius:

Currently, I'm debating hopping onto the Dr. wagon. His play is scummy, though I'm putting his play up next to the meta-data from the last game I played with him.
Though I feel that we will have to remove him from the game before MyLo/LyLo, as it will not help the town to have him alive very long- especially with his lack of reading, pressuring a claimed Mason.

THERES NO WAY IN HELL WERE GETTING OUT OF TODAY WITHOUT A DRMY LYNCH. IM 150% SERIOUS RIGHT NOW.

If he doesn't go now, he needs to go before LyLo. Just saying.
Wait. Maybe if we let him live longer, he'll do something insanely stupid like he did in our last game together (on-going) and basically out himself as scum.

Another player I find scummy hanging around the edge of the drmy wagon. Well that’s just great.

You know what's really, really annoying? A significant portion of the things I find scummy in this game are based around the wagon I'm sitting on. Which means that Ythill was

right

.

unvote

[Fishythefish]

Er... quick EBWOP. I should probably say what Ythill was right

about

. Which is the progression of this wagon. Not the bit where I'm scum. I still am quite happy to defend my vote on drmy, which was made for good reasons at a not particularly opportunistic time.

[Ythill]

Long night @ work and I spent most of my energy on another game but I'm glad to find the exciting reading material I was hoping for.

@Fate:

The only light I see is the eerie glow of whatever it is you are smoking. I don't see a shotty-NS link but a Fishy-NS link is not out of the question. I don't get your dilemma where NS-scum==Fish-town. Explain please? As for the point about Fishy's read about me being clouded, it's not like he made some startling deduction. I'd already said I was tunneling and, even if I hadn't, it was obvious.

@Maf+nham:

Why aren't you two voting in a bloc? Please start doing so. Also, nham, why are you obv-coaching the Fish? It's strange and too heavy-handed to be incidental.

AGar is town, BTW.

[Mafuyu]

@Ythill: There are all of three posts in the masonchat. If you hadn't noticed, nham and Mafuyu didn't really come in to D1 with a coordinated plan. While bloc-voting increases the strength of mason-supported wagons, he's still entitled to his own opinions.

I repeated that point because I never understood his answer to the question "is there anything scummy about me other than you disagreeing with my vote?". What do you mean by vote counts? Assuming something is bussing when you know neither of our alignments and have no justification is ridiculous confirmation bias.

Flawed argument. There is justification, otherwise Mafuyu wouldn't have vaguely cited justification. Confirmation bias assumes that Mafuyu always had a strong belief of the Fishy-NS-Agar situation, when it's pretty damn obvious that Mafuyu was tunneling Ythill until about two days ago. So why assume both, when neither are true (and if they are, only weakly)?

[AGar]

Nham, Mafuyu, & dr have all expressed the belief that I am scum.

None have voted for me. Nham and Mafuyu aren't touchable right now, but the hypocrisy and inconsistency of dr is really obvious, I'm still not sure why more people aren't piling votes onto him.

In other news,

V/LA August 6th through 8th. I won't be posting until late Sunday night.

[drmyshottyizsik]

@ Agar, I said scumish, and if fishy were not here I would have a vote on you
Here how about an official

FoS

to make you feel better