Open 239 - C9++

[Ythill]

My reasoning

does

mean that scum are more likely to place

bad

votes

...and which can can from either town or scum being stupid.

Also, your opinion that the vote was bad is... well... bad.

My set-up/role speculation has been highly relevant to things happening now. My "bad stance" is that if you make a contrived case to put someone at L-1, you are more likely scum.

All irrelevant. Point being, not only does 100% of your play potentially further a scum agenda, but your excuses do not explain why you're playing this way

in lieu of actually scumhunting

.

More votes on opportuna please.

[Fishythefish]

There are TWO explanations for drmy's vote. Either he made a fail case because he's bad at making cases - that's alignment neutral. Or he made a fail case because it was a constructed case so he could vote the way he wanted to - that's a scum action. Overall, that means it's more likely a scum action. I think I've adequately explained why his vote is bad.

I'm not doing much scumhunting mostly because I'm pretty sure I've found scum. I should get some more reads though, and I intend to do that in the next few hours.

I struggle to see what you mean by "opportunism" that applies to my casting a second vote for dr and doesn't apply much, much better in dr casting a terrible L-1 vote.

[Andrius]

@Andrius: You're glazing over the point: nobody had confirmed her claim at that time. Rather than attempt to confirm it, you simply believed it. Probably not worthy of mention from someone who was on the fence about her (like AGar was) but you seemed convinced she was scum.

You're ignoring the fact that she could have been confirmed at any time. Hence why someone asked the mod if she were a I.C. whether he would have been confirmed at the beginning of the game or not. If she isn't a I.C., and therein mod-confirmed, she would have to be a mason (confirmed by another player) or scum.
Had she failed to be confirmed by players/ the mod she is scum and would have been lynched. Simple as that.

[Ythill]

@Fishy:

I'm done going in circles about this. It's clear why I'm voting you and why others should.

@Andrius:

Could have been != was. Think about this, if I was as accepting as you were, she'd still be unclaimed and uber-scummy right now. And, apparently, you'd be okay with that.

[Mafuyu]

@Andrius: You're glazing over the point: nobody had confirmed her claim at that time. Rather than attempt to confirm it, you simply believed it. Probably not worthy of mention from someone who was on the fence about her (like AGar was) but you seemed convinced she was scum.

You're ignoring the fact that she could have been confirmed at any time. Hence why someone asked the mod if she were a I.C. whether he would have been confirmed at the beginning of the game or not. If she isn't a I.C., and therein mod-confirmed, she would have to be a mason (confirmed by another player) or scum.
Had she failed to be confirmed by players/ the mod she is scum and would have been lynched. Simple as that.

That also happens to be why Mafuyu didn't want to out even so much as the number of masons in Mafuyu's group, as confirmation is something that can be handled over the course of days, especially so far from deadline. Ythill's threat to lynch Mafuyu if more information wasn't provided felt really scummy to Mafuyu (quicklynch much?), but at the same time Ythill as a player is good at directing lynches, so even though controlled information leakage was a better move (Mafuyu HAD promised steady leakage when more advantageous to town, with the request that time be allotted for doing so), the fact that it was completely rejected due to perceived scumminess led to being more or less forced to claim. At this point Mafuyu is willing to chalk it up to some massive P2P tunneling, but reserves the right to "Mafuyu told you so!" if anything Mafuyu has said thus far is revealed to actually be true in the end-game. =P

Mafuyu doesn't think unvoting DrShotty is a good idea yet. Two shots of poor play nearly adjacent to one another (weakly-founded L-1 and early VT claim) imply either badscum or townie that's more interested in self-preservation than assisting town. A Fishy vote is still a viable choice for Mafuyu, as Mafuyu does agree with many of Ythill's points (many of which Mafuyu did pick up during the initial postings, but was too preoccupied trying not to die to make significant note of them, if any notage was actually done).

[Andrius]

@Andrius: Could have been != was. Think about this, if I was as accepting as you were, she'd still be unclaimed and uber-scummy right now. And, apparently, you'd be okay with that.

Not so. Someone did ask about how I.C.'s mod-confirm themselves, and we would definitely have pressed for a mason buddy claim before a lynch.
You make it seem like you're the only one doing something around here, which isn't exactly true.

[Fishythefish]

@Ythill: one more time, for luck. Here's how I see events:

- I see a terrible vote placing a player at L-1. I don't believe the reasoning in it. I vote dr (actually, I'm already voting dr, but irrelevant).
- You say drmy is a VI.
- I say that while there it's possible that a VI would place such a vote, I think with the strong scum motivation for it it's more likely to be a contrived scum vote.
- You say that, because I've admitted that it's possible drmy is a VI, my vote is based on a nulltell and is awful. You also say my vote is opportunistic, which is an accusation I'd like you to explain.
- We repeat ourselves a few times.

Am I missing something? I really, really don't see where you are coming from. I can accept that you disagree with me about dr's vote, but it seems that even if you

agreed

it was a terrible vote you would still think my stance is bad. Is that correct? It seems like you are attacking me for making a bad, opportunistic vote,

and

that the reason my vote was because it was for drmy making a bad, opportunistic vote. Which is why I think I've misunderstood you in some way.

Anyway, you are right about one thing - I've been a bit lazy so far. I’m struggling somewhat to get a grip on the game – I only came in after Maf’s claim, and basically nothing has happened except that wagon. A few things jump out:

Agar voted drmy (176). drmy claimed (190). In 204 Agar explains his vote, but the reasons are both things that had happened since 176. This reads like Agar had forgotten the reasoning for his vote, and had to go back and find another one.
@Agar: why did you originally vote drmy? And why didn’t you bring those reasons up in 204?

I don’t really have any idea who Unsight, Ns, Andrius or ani think are scum, and I’d like to know.

@Unsight: why are you voting Agar?

Andrius has posted an awful lot while saying very little. More like he wants to seem like he’s contributing than that he actually wants to find scum.

[Andrius]

I don’t really have any idea who Unsight, Ns, Andrius or ani think are scum, and I’d like to know.

Post 232 for mine.

[AGar]

@Agar: why did you originally vote drmy? And why didn’t you bring those reasons up in 204?

Wagon driving. Same reason I voted Ythill, Nobody Special and Mafuyu. Only this time, the vote is sticking and the reactions are ripe for the lynching.

This game has been all speculation about the setup still. I find it very hypocritical of Ythill to vote FTF for "setup/role speculation" when until the Mafuyu wagon gained any seriousness, that's all he did. If I wasn't so happy to have my vote planted on shotty right now, I'd be voting for Ythill.

I don't like the setup speculation, and I voiced that fact early on. I don't find it scummy, just useless and generally annoying. My only setup related post was simply laying out a list of what we knew for sure with the two mason claim. Instead of setup speculation, I've decided to try and drive different wagons to see how they stuck. Some gained ground, some didn't and some got the right reactions that I was looking for (or wrong, in the wagonee's case). It's not the best scumhunting, but when everyone active is saying "Reck would've obv protected me, and this person would've obv killed me, but because I didn't die, they can't be SK, so that person has to be SK," there's not much else to go off of. Reactions are better than nothing.

[Nobody Special]

NobodySpecial:
-I still have him as scum for the way he jumped on Ythill's wagon after AGAR was calling for it (as a joke). He said something like "this works, for now" giving him an out, and a reason to stay on the wagon. When obviously Ythill's 9 player thing and AGAR's call for a lynch was a joke/trap (from my POV)
-NOW after I express disgust with Animorph's play, he jumps on that counter-wagon like "yeah!! I could go for that!"
-I ASKED what he thought of drmy's claim, for him to clarify what "Retarded" means, and he has avoided doing so.

Normally I wouldn't be able to see Andrius and NS as scum together jumping on the ani wagon, but I agree with Ythill about Andrius' ISO play and them wagoning together for ani real hard would make perfect sense if drmy was in fact scum with them.

Retarded, in this case, means STOOPID. Also, in this case, is scummy. (It isn't always. Sometimes stupid is just stupid.)

Me and Andrius a scumteam? It is, how they say, to laugh.

I didn't see AGar's request as a joke (or a trap); if you did, well, that's your issue. How could it be a trap anyway, since I voted Ythill long before AGar did? You're weird.

And I'm firmly on the side of lynch all lurkers; look up my meta. It's easy to find. Therefore, your argument about me "jumping" on ani's wagon is moot. On that note,

@MOD: Can animorpherv1 be prodded AGAIN? He hasn't posted since July 31.

[Unsight]

@Unsight: why are you voting Agar?

AGar should be the one asking me this question, not you. However, since you did ask, what's it to ya?

[Unsight]

Wagon driving. Same reason I voted Ythill, Nobody Special and Mafuyu. Only this time, the vote is sticking and the reactions are ripe for the lynching.

And what reactions are those?

[Unsight]

I don’t really have any idea who Unsight, Ns, Andrius or ani think are scum, and I’d like to know.

I think that Fishythefish guy is pretty scummy. As for the rest, slight leanings one way or the other that are worth exploring but no one is on the must-die list yet.

[Unsight]

Hey Andrius, why aren't you voting anyone? Was Mafuyu your only suspect?

Why am I not voting anyone? I had been voting Mafuyu, but unvoted when nhammen backed up the Mason claim.
Mafuyu was not my only suspect.
Currently, I'm debating hopping onto the Dr. wagon. His play is scummy, though I'm putting his play up next to the meta-data from the last game I played with him.
Though I feel that we will have to remove him from the game before MyLo/LyLo, as it will not help the town to have him alive very long- especially with his lack of reading, pressuring a claimed Mason.

Then why didn't you vote him when you unvoted Mafuyu? What is the reason you did not vote him?

[Fate]

Retarded, in this case, means STOOPID. Also, in this case, is scummy. (It isn't always. Sometimes stupid is just stupid.)

So apparently you are agreeing the drmy is scummy, but voting off the wagon on some lurker than just needs a prod+a slap in the face?

mhmm...

[Nobody Special]

I firmly believe in Lynch All Lurkers. Deal with it.

[Fate]

Oh hai scum, want to post more than two lines and have a nice late night chat with me?

[Nobody Special]

I do not wish to chat with you.

[Fate]

Unvote:
Vote: NobodySpecial

Is that supposed to be a fuckin joke?

Cause I'm not laughing.

[Fate]

NobodySpecial:
-I still have him as scum for the way he jumped on Ythill's wagon after AGAR was calling for it (as a joke). He said something like "this works, for now" giving him an out, and a reason to stay on the wagon. When obviously Ythill's 9 player thing and AGAR's call for a lynch was a joke/trap (from my POV)
-NOW after I express disgust with Animorph's play, he jumps on that counter-wagon like "yeah!! I could go for that!"
-I ASKED what he thought of drmy's claim, for him to clarify what "Retarded" means, and he has avoided doing so.

Normally I wouldn't be able to see Andrius and NS as scum together jumping on the ani wagon, but I agree with Ythill about Andrius' ISO play and them wagoning together for ani real hard would make perfect sense if drmy was in fact scum with them.

Retarded, in this case, means STOOPID. Also, in this case, is scummy. (It isn't always. Sometimes stupid is just stupid.)

Me and Andrius a scumteam? It is, how they say, to laugh.

I didn't see AGar's request as a joke (or a trap); if you did, well, that's your issue. How could it be a trap anyway, since I voted Ythill long before AGar did? You're weird.

And I'm firmly on the side of lynch all lurkers; look up my meta. It's easy to find. Therefore, your argument about me "jumping" on ani's wagon is moot. On that note,

@MOD: Can animorpherv1 be prodded AGAIN? He hasn't posted since July 31.

^This post is all defense no offense. You're content to ride an ani vote without commenting on the game.

SO YOU BETTER GET IN HERE AND START TALKIN. I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU:

-What do you think of Ythill's case on Andrius? Fishy?
-How would you like the day to proceed after animorph posts?
-What do you think of Unsight? He's posted only a little bit more than ani, but I don't see you complaining about his activity levels.
-Who is likely scum pushing the drmy wagon/bussing drmy?

[Ythill]

That also happens to be why Mafuyu didn't want to out even so much as the number of masons in Mafuyu's group, as confirmation is something that can be handled over the course of days, especially so far from deadline.

You are incorrect about the optimal play. Nham and I are comfortable saving this theory argument for post-game. Are you?

Ythill's threat to lynch Mafuyu if more information wasn't provided felt really scummy to Mafuyu (quicklynch much?)

This is really funny. I was already voting for you. Without the help of others, my threats were entirely idle but you claimed anyway. Now you say it felt scummy?

one more time, for luck

I'm not going through the point-by-point but here's my synopsis again so that you can see where it differs from yours. Obv-scum Maf was @ L-2 pre-claim. Shotty wandered in and caught up, dropped L-1 onto her while demonstrating his familiarity with the most important points of the case and adding a couple. He got a backlash of suspicion. Maf claimed and the wagon on her disintegrated, meaning that scum were forced to move their votes. It's extremely likely that at least one is on shotty no matter what his alignment is and he's slightly more likely town than scum.

I can accept that you disagree with me about dr's vote, but it seems that even if you

agreed

it was a terrible vote you would still think my stance is bad. Is that correct?

You want my hypothetical opinion? That's silly. I think you're scum because of a number of factors, and I think there are scum attacking shotty for a number of factors. My

actual

opinion can be found in the vote count.

I find it very hypocritical of Ythill to vote FTF for "setup/role speculation" when until the Mafuyu wagon gained any seriousness, that's all he did.

Exaggerate much? I speculated about the NK and the target of our dead doc which is

not

setup speculation. In doing so I considered the vig/mason question for a second and thanked nham for pointing out the number of scum (while shushing him). Hell dude, I didn't even speculate about the set-up when Maf claimed. Besides, you're missing the point. Fishy is plenty curious about the setup

but not about people's alignments.

Could we

please

speed up the leans and get some more votes on Fishy? Kthx.

[Ythan]

I had sent ani another prod but I don't see it in my out or sent boxes. Sent another.

Mafuyu (0):
Fate (2): animorpherv1, drmyshottyizsik
animorpherv1 (2): Andrius, Nobody Special
Ythill (0):
nhammen (0):
drmyshottyizsik (3): Fishythefish, Mafuyu, AGar
Fishythefish (1): Ythill
Andrius (0):
Nobody Special (2): nhammen, Fate
Unsight (0):
AGar (1): Unsight

not voting (0):

With 11 alive it's 6 to lynch. Deadline is August 12 at 11:59pm EST.

[Ythill]

Very

interesting VC. Remember this one tomorrow.

[AGar]

Wagon driving. Same reason I voted Ythill, Nobody Special and Mafuyu. Only this time, the vote is sticking and the reactions are ripe for the lynching.

And what reactions are those?

The kind that tell me he's scum. Mainly, a claim without provocation and pointing out that he will be a mislynch, so we should lynch X next. Also, skimming, which I already mentioned why I believe in context is indicative of his alignment.

Also, I'm not sure why you're voting me, but I really don't care either. If you want to plant a vote on me for a while, go for it.

Although #262 is a great post. You think FTF is scummy, you don't mention me being scummy, but you have your vote planted on me.

End of Ythill's 270 - It is ROLE speculation though, which I did mention.

NS - Why so adamant about LALurkers when lurking has been proven to be null of any alignment indications?
Andrius, why are you willing to try to wagon a lurker, as well?

[Fishythefish]

@Ythill: I want to understand why you think I'm scummy. Is there anything in my play you find inconsistent with a townie who thinks drmy's vote is really, really awful - except that you don't believe that a townie would find drmy's vote really, really awful?

Your accusations of me doing nothing are really based on the fact that you think my vote is crap - I don't really think you are saying anything new. You are only not counting attacking drmy as scumhunting because you think it's a bad vote. You haven't said anything to show I'm not interested in people's alignments. This isn't an easy game to get a grip on - the main wagon was a good wagon on a town player, which is difficult to get reads from, and aside from that very little has happened.

About your arguments on why scum would have moved to drmy after Maf claimed. I don't understand:
1) Why they don't apply equally well to "town who think drmy's vote was crap" as to "scum".
2) Why they apply any better to me than anyone else on the wagon.

@Fate: In post 208, you said we were not getting out of the day without a drmy lynch. You recently unvoted him. What changed?

@Whoever it is who has said "yeah, Ythill has a point" - could you please expand on what Ythill has said about me that you agree with? Particularly if you agree with me that drmy's vote was terrible. Both because I want to know why people think I'm scummy and because I could do with a fresh explanation of the case.