Newbie 983 ~ Game Over!

[drmyshottyizsik]

*fingers crossed*

[KittyMo]

Lynch Majority Reached! Vote Count

[5] Hinduragi - (Switz, foilist13, drmyshottyizsik, Seraphim, Hinduragi)

[0] archaebob - ()
[0] drmyshottyizsik - ()
[0] foilist13 - ()
[0] Good and Honest - ()
[0] Prox - ()
[0] Seraphim - ()
[0] silverbullet999 - ()
[0] Switz - ()

[4]

Not Voting

- (archaebob, Good and Honest, Prox, silverbullet999)

With

9

alive, it's

5

to lynch!

FLAVOR

Oh boy! The town finally decided who to lynch! What fun!

I mean, even the guy who's getting strangled with a rope was fine with it!

The town was getting bored of talking, anyway. They wanted to go home and pet kittens and do the dishes.



So, Hinduragi made a great candidate!

Hinduragi, Mafia Goon, Lynched Day 1

FLAVOR

Sleep well! Don't let the scum bite!

It is now Night 1. Deadline for any and all night actions will be due Sunday, August 1, 2010 at 7:00:00 PM (San Diego time).

No posts are permitted after this post until I or Excedrin says it's Day. Breaking this is risking a modkill.

[Excedrin]

It's Day 2.

You wake up to find Prox is dead!

FLAVOR

Vote Count

not voting: Seraphim, drmyshottyizsik, Switz, foilist13, Good and Honest, archaebob, silverbullet999
alive: 7 majority: 4

I'll be your mod until the end of the week when KittyMo returns. If you have any questions, feel free to PM.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Vote G&H

still think he's anti town maybe mafia who knows?!?! cant read him maybe today he will really contribute

[Prox]

Yes! How perfect. I fit perfectly in the wastebasket. Good luck guys.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Bye Prox I <3 you, sorry I thought you were scum, I sorta figured it out at the end though

[foilist13]

@Seraphim: Let's hear your investigation results

[archaebob]

On the Curious Life of Mr. S W I T Z

I'm also going to note that shotty takes the opportunity to cast suspicion on Prox without casting a vote, which strikes somewhat of a bad chord with me. FoS: drmyshottyizsic

And I'm still really torn on the G&H issue.

Shotty's argument makes sense, but then again, I'm now suspicious of shotty which makes me hesitant to trust his argument.

The problem with lynching him today is that it loses us a day of actual scumhunting, but the problem with leaving him around is that it'll just make tomorrow more confusing since we have no other way to kill him in a setup like this.

Lol at the hypocrisy. Here, switz says he suspects Shotty for taking the "opportunity to cast suspicion" on someone "without casting a vote." Yet switz does the exact same thing himself,

in this very post

. Where's your vote switz? Or do you want to make sure that the town has absolutely nothing it can attack you on before you commit yourself to a wagon?

See, anyone who pays attention should be able to see right through this garbage. Switz is doing what everybody who fancies themselves a clever mafia player tries to do: he is fabricating a gradual progression of his suspicions, and weaving it in the thread one post after the other. First, he mentions that he just sorta suspects shotty. Next post, his suspicions get a little firmer, but he's still not ready to vote yet, cause there isn't enough evidence. He only he drops the vote once everyone else has implicitly agreed with the suspicions he wants to pretend to have.

Also, the bolded is another text-book example of scum. He says something, and then immediately qualifies it, all the while foreshadowing his future suspicion of shotty. This is classic scum play. It is only the scum who desperately want to make every little machination of their reasoning known to the town. They do this because their reasoning is fabricated, and they know it. Town players, secure in the sincerity of their beliefs, simply state their conclusions. Now, this is not to say that town players are never uncertain, or never change their mind over time. But they do not flip flop back and forth in the same post, qualifying everything they say, and mentioning possible exceptions to their opinions based on evidence that they NEED everyone to see they've noticed.

Let's continue.

@shotty: I agree with silverbullet's statement that there's no one I really want to lynch, but, if I had to pick one person, it'd be you--but only because of what I indicated a few posts up with my FoS.

I'm seeing you as scummier than the other players but at this point in the game there's not enough evidence for that to be much more than a slight suspicion.

More nervous energy, of the same type we found in Hinduragi. Laying suspicion on shotty, but too concerned with covering his own ass to actually vote. Bolded is the kind of methodical, nervous, self-analyzing that I was just talking about.

In addition, Switz casts suspicion on shotty without voting, which again directly contradicts the reason he FoSed shotty earlier.

Answer, please. Just because you ask the question doesn't mean you don't have to answer for yourself. Quite the opposite, in fact.

And I'm definitely willing to Unvote, Vote: Shotty,

but unless Hinduragi feels the same he should pull his vote; this isn't RVS anymore and we should start acting that way, especially when random votes are contributing to an L-2 situation.

Here's where we get to the real meat of things.

Thanks for letting us know that you ARE, in fact, now "willing to unvote, vote: shotty." Before you weren't, because there wasn't enough evidence, right? What new evidence surfaced in the intervening time exactly?

Bolded is the real crime of this post though. Here, Switz blatantly advises his scum partner on what to do. You can tell because there's no teeth in it. If switz was town who had just happened to notice that Hindu was keeping his rvs vote for no reason, his reaction would have been "What the hell are you doing? FoS Hindu." Instead, he very pleasantly suggests what Hindu "should" do. This seems to assume, rather naively, that Hindu is on the same team as Switz.

Unless, of course, he already

knows

that Hindu is on his team.

Nice call, Hinduragi. I'd noticed some of these things before, but the G&H voting pattern was something I hadn't seen. Good work, this totally justifies my vote on Shotty even more.

Y'all should be able to see the pattern by now.

For his next couple of posts, Switz mostly focuses on attacking shotty and G&H. These are by far the easiest players in the game he could have possibly picked to attack. Shotty's play is plagued with numerous superficial scumtells; AtE, bandwagoning, omgus, etc. It's very easy to make a purely logical case on this type of player, regardless of alignment. And G&H was a great choice to go after, because of how uniquely anti-town his play is. Very subtle and effective scum move on Switz's part to primarily direct his attention at these two.

Now, I want to be clear. The fact that Switz focused on G&H and Shotty isn't a scum-tell in and of itself, as there were others in the town who voiced similar opinions. But the overall manner with which Switz positioned himself certainly does seem to fit the profile of a cautious scum player. It's not more evidence, but it does fit the case.

Of Shotty's suggestions, I'm leaning towards examining silverbullet a bit further. I don't have a good read on him yet either way, so it can only help to get one. I'm gonna skim the thread quick and then post up my thoughts on silver's play so far.

More of the same stuff. Declaring what he intends to do before he does anything. Really reasonable sounding progression of thought, which he wants to make sure we all are aware of.

@ everyone -

If you've been skimming through this wall up to this point, here's where I want you to pay close attention:

@Arch:

I can understand your argument against Hinduragi, but I'm not sure I necessarily agree with it. Couldn't his self-analyzing, overly-qualifying writing style be an indicator that he's newbtown as much as newbscum? The way I'm reading it, those same efforts to sound logical seem more like a less experienced townie trying to make their arguments sound logical so the rest of the town will follow them. Not to mention the remainder of Hinduragi's posts aren't seeming especially scummy to me. Are there any other scumtells you're picking up in his play thus far?

And what do you think of Hinduragi's response to your questions? You don't reference them at all in your next post, where you're attacking G&H instead (an attack I'm growing to agree with, btw).

Extensively

defends Hindu out of the blue, for no real reason. Not only expresses his opinion of my argument against him, but also asks me very intently what I think of Hindu's response to my initial attack. The fact that I hadn't mentioned his responses yet was evidently really significant to him, as not only was he following Hindu closely enough to

notice

that I hadn't responded...he felt it important enough to comment on.

Why does Switz care so much about my suspicion of hindu? I mean, it'd be one thing if Hindu was about to be lynched or, something. But he wasn't.

Also, Switz's attempt to explain away Hindu's actions gives Hindu HUGE benefit of the doubt. I explained

precisely

why I found Hindu's nervous energy to be more of a scum-tell than a newbtown tell. Switz is adding nothing to the discussion here, and I interpret this as his being freaked out at the fact that we already caught his partner, without him really understanding what it is that we found.

But wait, it gets better:

@Hinduragi:

While I do generally disagree with the bandwagon against you, I do think that you're not doing enough to actually defend yourself. Arch and Foil (and Shotty, to a certain extent) all have accused you of being scum, and all you've done in response is calmly answered their questions. That's good, but it's really not enough to clear you. You're off my list of targets for now, but I will be keeping an eye on you.

Pure. Scum.

More coaching here, telling Hindu precisely what he ought to do to improve his situation.

And then, the weakest declaration of fake suspicion ever. "You're off my list of targets for now, but I will be keeping an eye on you." Give me a fucking break.

Here's my translation of this whole quote: "You haven't sucked enough horse cock for me to bus you quite yet, but you need to start pulling your own weight. Get your act together, partner!"

Next, he votes G&H, even though nothing about his shotty case has changed at all. He essentially goes from voting who he thinks is scum to who he thinks would make a pro-town policy lynch.

I ask Switz about his G&H vote, and this is his response:

@ Switz - what are you accomplishing with your G&H vote exactly? I like most of your play so far, but I think you aren't maximizing the information generating potential of your actions right now.

I'm indicating that I think he should be lynched?...I'm not sure what your problem with this is. Would you rather I just voted and unvoted every player in succession, as you seem to be doing? We can question people without voting them arbitrarily. Also, how do you expect to definitively find both scum today? For one thing, you can't definitively know anything until after lynching a scum/N1 w/ a cop, and for another,

I was under the impression you too were looking to get rid of G&H tonight.

And Foilist, just a quick answer on why you FoSed me, since I really don't get it.

Read my question. Now read his response. Now read my question again.

Overreaction much? I don't attack or accuse him of anything remotely scummy. In fact, I even compliment him on his play. He, however, was obviously on the edge of his seat, as his response is aggressive and overly-defensive. He even tries to flip it back on me, misrepping my play and throwing a barrage of heated questions at me.

Boldest is again the scummiest line of this section, where he pretty much gives away the real reason he had his vote on G&H to begin with.

@ Shotty

As Seraphim has just said above, not everyone can be Prox's scumbuddy. If you are really town, give us some actual evidence for your accusations, not OMGUS and AtE.

I decided to unvote you to go after G&H, but more and more it's looking like I should go back to you. (Arch: not an excuse to ignore my accusations).

Vote: Shotty

More of the same.

I could go on for several pages with these sort of things, but I don't want to waste your time. If you read his iso, a lot of it should jump out at you.

Skipping to the startling conclusion:

Uhh...because when scum claims cop and you're the real cop, you counterclaim so the town doesn't get led around by the nose by the scumteam. Real cops staying quiet to save themselves are not playing to their win condition.

I did not think I was going to be doing this earlier in the game but Vote: Hinduragi.

Oh? You didn't think you were going to be doing this earlier in the game? Thanks for telling us.

This is the most obvious bus ever. Like, EVER. It was a fairly safe one too, because it seemed at the moment like Seraphim was gonna get lynched. This enabled Switz to distance from his partner while simultaneously staying off the mislynch wagon. Great move.

And it doesn't make any sense as town. Go back up and read his defense of Hindu from earlier. I don't have it quoted, but at one point he even threatens to vote me if I don't explain my suspicion of Hindu.

Here, however, despite having never agreed with any of my and foilist's earlier attacks on Hindu, he suddenly decides that Hindu is now his new top suspect, something which he "did not think he was going to be doing earlier in the game." For a really weak reason too.

What exactly is it that Hindu said about cops there that was SO scummy, it changed Switz's mind? Nothing. He just had the

audacity

to suggest that maybe a cop counterclaim wouldn't necessarily be the best play right then. This opinion, which is actually a common town opinion, is what supposedly pushed Switz over the edge.

Final word:

Okay, so as much as I want to believe Prox is town and I haven't been following scum after townShotty, the more I look at things the more Prox seems scummy. I've skimmed through his ISO, and throughout the Day, he's:

Flipfloppy on G&H
Went after Shotty relentlessly with little initial reason
Cribbed most of his Shotty-argument from Hinduragi
Switched wagons at a convenient and appropriate time
Willing to completely change his convictions at the drop of a hat (see above, w/ Shotty/Seraphim switch)

My vote would put him at L-1, but since we have the time I won't give it. I'll just join in the asking for a claim.

Here, he starts off the beginning of his next cycle, which is in this case the moving of his vote from Hindu to Prox. He declares exactly what he is doing, and feels it is very important to explain why he

isn't

already voting for Prox.

I want everyone to notice an important pattern here: Switz's suspicions are determined by what everyone else in the town is saying. He has followed town opinion like an obedient dog:

- He voted shotty only after everyone else had expressed suspicion of him.
- He moved his vote to G&H after

agreeing

with foilist and I, and became very flustered when he realized that I didn't actually want to lynch G&H immediately.
- He returns his vote to shotty, his initial, safe target.
- He moves onto Hindu for a very fake reason, obviously to distance himself and because he feels hindu is losing against foilist.
- He

talks about

, in passing, how he plans to vote Prox soon, and now agrees with everyone else, and is only abstaining to avoid putting Prox at L-1, but makes sure we know that he will "join in asking for a claim."

Switz has done very little truly original scum-hunting of his own (I won't say none, that would be a misrep), and certainly seems to be very mindful of town opinion. He doesn't commit to anything until he feels he has the backing from other people for it, and is always nervously analyzing himself in his posts to make sure there is nothing he can be attacked for.

Conclusion

You guys, we have our scum. I’m 100% on this, and I'm happy to lynch now.

Summary

Reasons that Switz is scum in order of significance:

1) He blatantly coaches confirmed scum Hinduragi and gives him preferential treatment on more than one occasion.
2) His play is filled with precisely the same kind of nervous energy that we nailed Hinduragi for yesterday. He over-explains, qualifies and requalifies, overreacts to things, and generally posts in ways that do not bespeak of a mindset which is ignorant of the roles. Most his reasoning sounds fabricated, and he goes to great lengths to make sure that every little detail of it is understood.
3) His votes are cast in a manner very reminiscent of classic scum play. He always picks safe targets, and always votes for players after OTHER people have expressed suspicion on them. Also, he very awkwardly foreshadows the progression of his suspicions before casting a vote in a way that seems contrived.
4) His hinduragi vote doesn't make any sense, and smells overwhelmingly like a bus that he didn't expect to go all the way through.

Let's do this guys.

vote: switz

[drmyshottyizsik]

Damn you sure know how to make a point

unvote
Vote: Switz

But man if you are wrong I think that looks very scummy on you, butt I'm game for lynching him

[foilist13]

vote: Switz

S

ee, I think you first need to explain what doesn't sit right with you. You've just posted a disclaimer on your original post, so you need to repost your case with the appropriate changes. Otherwise my analysis would be totally invalid as you could claim that any part of it was not actually what you meant due to the disclaimer. You need to post a case I can hold you to before I attack it if I still want to.

W

hat my issue with your original case itself is, not taking into account you as a player, is that I believe you are wrong. Shotty's play has a few key characteristics that do not coincide with your representation of his play.

1)

I

see that he is erratic but not inconsistent. He has declared Prox to be scum, and that is clearly his most solid read. Every time someone posts something that spikes his suspicion he naturally pursues the possibility that they might be scum. If they are scum, it stands to reason that they would be Prox's partner as he is the strongest scum read.

2)

T

he posts do not seem to be designed to avoid attention. He is enthusiastic, and is clearly a new player (no offense meant at all here Shotty). His posts reflect newbie town making an honest attempt to find scum. I don't see anything in your case that tells me otherwise.

S

o to make things easier for everyone I'll post my scum list as it is right now. There will be only two scum on this list as that is how many exist in the game.

SilverBullet: Town
Archaebob: Town
Hinduragi: Scum
Seraphim: Scum
Switz: Town
Good & Honest: Town
Shotty: Town
Prox: Town
foilist13: The Lord your God

I've suspected you all along mate.

[Switz]

Well, there's nothing like a spontaneously generated L-1 to wake you up in the morning. It's 1 in the morning here and I don't have time to respond fully to Arch's wall of text accusations, so I'm just going to put down my immediate Daythoughts.

--The Night Kill proves that G&H is town unless he's actually been lying about his playstyle the whole time. In which case I will be so pissed you have no idea.
--It would have been nice to have waited for Seraphim to say what his results were before immediately wagoning me. I can't imagine he chose me for an investigation but it'd be nice cause then I might actually live through the Day.
--On that note, since I am at L-1, I'm claiming: Vanilla Townie. Sorry it's not more exciting.
--Foilist: I really hope you're being sarcastic.
--My top suspect for today is Silver, so if/when you mislynch me, I'd start there. I wish it was Arch, because then there'd be a reason for him to be leading the Crusade against me, but it's not. I actually think he's one of the players most likely to be town at this point. [/statement you'll misinterpret and use against me]

Significantly more in the morning.

[silverbullet999]

Few things, Sorry to have been away, I know I have been missed.

Bob- Fantastic looking case, I'll take a deeper look at it at another time though as I'm still a little busy.
Also nice catch foil.

Also don't see the harm in letting seraph tell his results.

[drmyshottyizsik]

oh ya

NO ONE HAMMER UNTILL WE HEAR THE RESULTS!!

[foilist13]

What on earth makes you think I was being sarcastic? I just revealed a breadcrumbs fr D1. I had little suspiscion of seraphim, I simply wished to avoid the night kill, so I said I suspected him. You're in dire straights here mate. However, before we lynch you I'd like to hear seraphim's investigation results.

[drmyshottyizsik]

ok i only have a small PoS on seraphim because he wasn't NK'd, which means we either have a doctor, the last mafia didn't want to risk missing a kill incase there was a doctor, or seraphim is scum, claimed cop in despiration, but really we don't have a cop we have a doctor and he is protecting the mafia. If I'm right then seraphim is very smart. Also now would be the perfect time for a real cop to claim, because then either you or seraphim is scum. Another possiblity is that we have a 7 VT set up which once again seraphim could be lying his ass of.

[Excedrin]

Vote Count

Switz (3): archaebob, drmyshottyizsik, foilist13

not voting: Seraphim, Switz, Good and Honest, silverbullet999
alive: 7 majority: 4

[drmyshottyizsik]

foilist any thoughts on post 439?

[foilist13]

There are a lot of possibilities with Seraphim and the night kill. We really won't have any information until we hear his results.

Right now I'm pretty positive on Switz. I have been since I FoS'ed him day one.

[Switz]

Before I respond to Arch's case:

Foilist: I see your intent now that you're explaining it and it's not 1 in the morning. I just remember looking at that and thinking "if I find the letters for any of the other players hidden in your post..." But good thinking. You're wrong about me being scum, but it was smart to keep your suspicion of me close to the chest at any rate.

Arch:

Your accusations of me are well-thought-out and well said. But they are not correct for two simple reasons.

1) For the majority of the Day, I believed that Hinduragi was town.
2) This is a newbie game, my first game in years, and I'm still working out the kinks of how to develop a good town playstyle.

I apologize in advance for the wall of text below; it's easier to reply to your arguments via quote wall.

On the Curious Life of Mr. S W I T Z

I'm also going to note that shotty takes the opportunity to cast suspicion on Prox without casting a vote, which strikes somewhat of a bad chord with me. FoS: drmyshottyizsic

And I'm still really torn on the G&H issue.

Shotty's argument makes sense, but then again, I'm now suspicious of shotty which makes me hesitant to trust his argument.

The problem with lynching him today is that it loses us a day of actual scumhunting, but the problem with leaving him around is that it'll just make tomorrow more confusing since we have no other way to kill him in a setup like this.

Lol at the hypocrisy. Here, switz says he suspects Shotty for taking the "opportunity to cast suspicion" on someone "without casting a vote." Yet switz does the exact same thing himself,

in this very post

. Where's your vote switz? Or do you want to make sure that the town has absolutely nothing it can attack you on before you commit yourself to a wagon?

See, anyone who pays attention should be able to see right through this garbage. Switz is doing what everybody who fancies themselves a clever mafia player tries to do: he is fabricating a gradual progression of his suspicions, and weaving it in the thread one post after the other. First, he mentions that he just sorta suspects shotty. Next post, his suspicions get a little firmer, but he's still not ready to vote yet, cause there isn't enough evidence. He only he drops the vote once everyone else has implicitly agreed with the suspicions he wants to pretend to have.

Also, the bolded is another text-book example of scum. He says something, and then immediately qualifies it, all the while foreshadowing his future suspicion of shotty. This is classic scum play. It is only the scum who desperately want to make every little machination of their reasoning known to the town. They do this because their reasoning is fabricated, and they know it. Town players, secure in the sincerity of their beliefs, simply state their conclusions. Now, this is not to say that town players are never uncertain, or never change their mind over time. But they do not flip flop back and forth in the same post, qualifying everything they say, and mentioning possible exceptions to their opinions based on evidence that they NEED everyone to see they've noticed.

At this point, my vote was on Haylen, who I had RVed earlier in the game. As I said in the part of my post you didn't quote, however, she had just made her "I call rolefishing" post and I was calling her on it. I thought it was worth leaving my vote with her, but I didn't want to ignore Shotty's statement above--

She has a point, you are being awfully bold and trying to pass the blame a lot. I'm not going to vote you Prox, but don't ask for claims.

This was a blatant, direct statement that he was not going to vote accompanied by his suspicions, and it jumped right out at me. What didn't jump out at me was the realization that I was doing the same thing. But you'll note in my very next post that I backed off Shotty after he explained his actions. What would have been the point of this if I was "fabricating a gradual progression," as you say? This seems like a step backwards to me.

I'd also like to point out that my statement of qualification that you point out is not an immediate scumtell. Why do only scum have the desire to "make every little machination of their reasoning known to the town"? Why wouldn't town players want to make sure their ass is covered at such an early stage in the game? You yourself say town players can be uncertain, and that was uncertainty. Sincere uncertainty. I understand if you don't want to see it that way in the wake of Hinduragi's play, but there is no reason why making a qualifying statement in one post is a scumtell.

Let's continue.

@shotty: I agree with silverbullet's statement that there's no one I really want to lynch, but, if I had to pick one person, it'd be you--but only because of what I indicated a few posts up with my FoS.

I'm seeing you as scummier than the other players but at this point in the game there's not enough evidence for that to be much more than a slight suspicion.

More nervous energy, of the same type we found in Hinduragi. Laying suspicion on shotty, but too concerned with covering his own ass to actually vote. Bolded is the kind of methodical, nervous, self-analyzing that I was just talking about.

In addition, Switz casts suspicion on shotty without voting, which again directly contradicts the reason he FoSed shotty earlier.

Again, this is a sincere answer to the question. There wasn't a lot going on at this point in the game. And I had previously given reasons for why I suspected Shotty and why I didn't think it was deserving of a vote at that point in time. That said, if I was in this position again, I probably would vote Shotty at this point (or earlier) to spark discussion and/or see who else overeagerly jumps on board.

Answer, please. Just because you ask the question doesn't mean you don't have to answer for yourself. Quite the opposite, in fact.

And I'm definitely willing to Unvote, Vote: Shotty,

but unless Hinduragi feels the same he should pull his vote; this isn't RVS anymore and we should start acting that way, especially when random votes are contributing to an L-2 situation.

Here's where we get to the real meat of things.

Thanks for letting us know that you ARE, in fact, now "willing to unvote, vote: shotty." Before you weren't, because there wasn't enough evidence, right? What new evidence surfaced in the intervening time exactly?

Bolded is the real crime of this post though. Here, Switz blatantly advises his scum partner on what to do. You can tell because there's no teeth in it. If switz was town who had just happened to notice that Hindu was keeping his rvs vote for no reason, his reaction would have been "What the hell are you doing? FoS Hindu." Instead, he very pleasantly suggests what Hindu "should" do. This seems to assume, rather naively, that Hindu is on the same team as Switz.

Unless, of course, he already

knows

that Hindu is on his team.

Honestly, I overreacted here. I saw Prox ask Shotty who he wanted to lynch, then I saw Shotty had answered Silver's question and ignored Prox's so I jumped on him. At the time it was just enough evidence for me, now I think I would have just had the earlier part of the post, asking him to answer Prox's question.

And my conversation with Hindu was incredibly naive, and I'm kicking myself for it now. But I can use it in my favor now, because while you're reading it as a scum conversation, it was meant in an entirely pro-town fashion. Here's my thought process: "I think Shotty is now worthy of my vote. However, I don't want him to get lynched unless he really is scum, so it'd probably be a good idea to make sure anyone random voting is off the wagon, so I'll give Hindu a heads-up."

Yes, I'm aware it's dumb, and I'm also aware that my thoughts probably weren't that developed. But I've got no other defense for making that post other than to say it was a mistake.

Nice call, Hinduragi. I'd noticed some of these things before, but the G&H voting pattern was something I hadn't seen. Good work, this totally justifies my vote on Shotty even more.

Y'all should be able to see the pattern by now.

For his next couple of posts, Switz mostly focuses on attacking shotty and G&H. These are by far the easiest players in the game he could have possibly picked to attack. Shotty's play is plagued with numerous superficial scumtells; AtE, bandwagoning, omgus, etc. It's very easy to make a purely logical case on this type of player, regardless of alignment. And G&H was a great choice to go after, because of how uniquely anti-town his play is. Very subtle and effective scum move on Switz's part to primarily direct his attention at these two.

Now, I want to be clear. The fact that Switz focused on G&H and Shotty isn't a scum-tell in and of itself, as there were others in the town who voiced similar opinions. But the overall manner with which Switz positioned himself certainly does seem to fit the profile of a cautious scum player. It's not more evidence, but it does fit the case.

Yeah, Shotty and G&H were/are easy targets. But if you'll look at my posts I wasn't following Hinduragi. I was following Prox, and I'll admit it. I didn't pick up on the fact that most of his argument was a slightly more elaborate form of Hinduragi's, but when I read it I thought "this makes sense" and decided it would be worthwhile to support this idea. It was sloppy but it was a newb mistake, not a scum ploy. As I played with Shotty, here and in other games I won't say more about, I began to realize that his illogic is not necessarily a scumtell, which is the point where I began to back off.

And, again, this post is based in the false assumption that Hinduragi was town.

Of Shotty's suggestions, I'm leaning towards examining silverbullet a bit further. I don't have a good read on him yet either way, so it can only help to get one. I'm gonna skim the thread quick and then post up my thoughts on silver's play so far.

More of the same stuff. Declaring what he intends to do before he does anything. Really reasonable sounding progression of thought, which he wants to make sure we all are aware of.

I don't see how letting the town know what I plan to do next is scummy. It might be bad play, but I don't think it's indicative of my alignment either way since I did follow through with a (weak) analysis.

@ everyone -

If you've been skimming through this wall up to this point, here's where I want you to pay close attention:

@Arch:

I can understand your argument against Hinduragi, but I'm not sure I necessarily agree with it. Couldn't his self-analyzing, overly-qualifying writing style be an indicator that he's newbtown as much as newbscum? The way I'm reading it, those same efforts to sound logical seem more like a less experienced townie trying to make their arguments sound logical so the rest of the town will follow them. Not to mention the remainder of Hinduragi's posts aren't seeming especially scummy to me. Are there any other scumtells you're picking up in his play thus far?

And what do you think of Hinduragi's response to your questions? You don't reference them at all in your next post, where you're attacking G&H instead (an attack I'm growing to agree with, btw).

Extensively

defends Hindu out of the blue, for no real reason. Not only expresses his opinion of my argument against him, but also asks me very intently what I think of Hindu's response to my initial attack. The fact that I hadn't mentioned his responses yet was evidently really significant to him, as not only was he following Hindu closely enough to

notice

that I hadn't responded...he felt it important enough to comment on.

Why does Switz care so much about my suspicion of hindu? I mean, it'd be one thing if Hindu was about to be lynched or, something. But he wasn't.

Also, Switz's attempt to explain away Hindu's actions gives Hindu HUGE benefit of the doubt. I explained

precisely

why I found Hindu's nervous energy to be more of a scum-tell than a newbtown tell. Switz is adding nothing to the discussion here, and I interpret this as his being freaked out at the fact that we already caught his partner, without him really understanding what it is that we found.

I defended Hindu for the very simplest of reasons: I thought he was town, and I thought you were scum trying to save Shotty by distracting us. Not to mention I saw in Hindu's posts something I saw in mine--the effort to sound logical in order to be taken more seriously. Hence why you now think I'm scum. Except my posts actually do sound logical for that reason, whereas you pegged Hinduragi right from the start.

And I think it was absolutely logical for me to ask about your response to Hinduragi. At the time, it seemed like you had completely dropped the case to start questioning G&H, and I couldn't think of a reason why you'd ask the questions if you weren't interested in the responses.

But wait, it gets better:

@Hinduragi:

While I do generally disagree with the bandwagon against you, I do think that you're not doing enough to actually defend yourself. Arch and Foil (and Shotty, to a certain extent) all have accused you of being scum, and all you've done in response is calmly answered their questions. That's good, but it's really not enough to clear you. You're off my list of targets for now, but I will be keeping an eye on you.

Pure. Scum.

More coaching here, telling Hindu precisely what he ought to do to improve his situation.

And then, the weakest declaration of fake suspicion ever. "You're off my list of targets for now, but I will be keeping an eye on you." Give me a fucking break.

Here's my translation of this whole quote: "You haven't sucked enough horse cock for me to bus you quite yet, but you need to start pulling your own weight. Get your act together, partner!"

Yeah, there's no defense for this except my Reason #1. It was stupid and naive and it won't happen again whether you lynch me toDay or not. And it was probably colored by the suspicions of you I had at the time.

Next, he votes G&H, even though nothing about his shotty case has changed at all. He essentially goes from voting who he thinks is scum to who he thinks would make a pro-town policy lynch.

I ask Switz about his G&H vote, and this is his response:

@ Switz - what are you accomplishing with your G&H vote exactly? I like most of your play so far, but I think you aren't maximizing the information generating potential of your actions right now.

I'm indicating that I think he should be lynched?...I'm not sure what your problem with this is. Would you rather I just voted and unvoted every player in succession, as you seem to be doing? We can question people without voting them arbitrarily. Also, how do you expect to definitively find both scum today? For one thing, you can't definitively know anything until after lynching a scum/N1 w/ a cop, and for another,

I was under the impression you too were looking to get rid of G&H tonight.

And Foilist, just a quick answer on why you FoSed me, since I really don't get it.

Read my question. Now read his response. Now read my question again.

Overreaction much? I don't attack or accuse him of anything remotely scummy. In fact, I even compliment him on his play. He, however, was obviously on the edge of his seat, as his response is aggressive and overly-defensive. He even tries to flip it back on me, misrepping my play and throwing a barrage of heated questions at me.

Boldest is again the scummiest line of this section, where he pretty much gives away the real reason he had his vote on G&H to begin with.

You and Foilist convinced me going after G&H was the smartest town move, and then as soon as I voted G&H you turned around and implied that I wasn't accomplishing anything with my vote. Of course I overreacted. Yes, I voted G&H because you and Foilist were. But because I agreed with what you thought, not because I was trying to bandwagon him.

@ Shotty

As Seraphim has just said above, not everyone can be Prox's scumbuddy. If you are really town, give us some actual evidence for your accusations, not OMGUS and AtE.

I decided to unvote you to go after G&H, but more and more it's looking like I should go back to you. (Arch: not an excuse to ignore my accusations).

Vote: Shotty

More of the same.

I could go on for several pages with these sort of things, but I don't want to waste your time. If you read his iso, a lot of it should jump out at you.

I don't really see this as scummy at all. I thought it was quite clear that I thought lynching G&H was good because he was anti-town, and I thought lynching Shotty was good because he was scummy. So just because I was voting one hadn't meant my suspicions had changed regarding the other.

Skipping to the startling conclusion:

Uhh...because when scum claims cop and you're the real cop, you counterclaim so the town doesn't get led around by the nose by the scumteam. Real cops staying quiet to save themselves are not playing to their win condition.

I did not think I was going to be doing this earlier in the game but Vote: Hinduragi.

Oh? You didn't think you were going to be doing this earlier in the game? Thanks for telling us.

This is the most obvious bus ever. Like, EVER. It was a fairly safe one too, because it seemed at the moment like Seraphim was gonna get lynched. This enabled Switz to distance from his partner while simultaneously staying off the mislynch wagon. Great move.

And it doesn't make any sense as town. Go back up and read his defense of Hindu from earlier. I don't have it quoted, but at one point he even threatens to vote me if I don't explain my suspicion of Hindu.

Here, however, despite having never agreed with any of my and foilist's earlier attacks on Hindu, he suddenly decides that Hindu is now his new top suspect, something which he "did not think he was going to be doing earlier in the game." For a really weak reason too.

What exactly is it that Hindu said about cops there that was SO scummy, it changed Switz's mind? Nothing. He just had the

audacity

to suggest that maybe a cop counterclaim wouldn't necessarily be the best play right then. This opinion, which is actually a common town opinion, is what supposedly pushed Switz over the edge.

See Reason #2. I thought, as I clearly state in this post, that the best play for a real cop to make at this point was to counterclaim. Hindu went after Shotty for suggesting that the Cop claim, and since I had been convinced Shotty was town at this point, I saw this as a pretty scummy move, so I impulsively voted.

Unfortunately, as numerous others pointed out, this is not the case. So what I should have done was unvote Hinduragi. In fact looking at my next post, my last one from D1, I think I may have honestly forgotten that I was voting for Hinduragi, because I say "My vote would put him at L-1, but since we have the time I won't give it," which seems to imply I thought I wasn't voting anyone. Dumb mistake. But a mistake, not a bus. I didn't really realize Hinduragi was that close to a lynch either, which is yet another mistake.

But I think the point I'm trying to make here is that my voting of Hinduragi doesn't really make sense as town or as scum, so why make it into a scumtell that doesn't exist?

Final word:

Okay, so as much as I want to believe Prox is town and I haven't been following scum after townShotty, the more I look at things the more Prox seems scummy. I've skimmed through his ISO, and throughout the Day, he's:

Flipfloppy on G&H
Went after Shotty relentlessly with little initial reason
Cribbed most of his Shotty-argument from Hinduragi
Switched wagons at a convenient and appropriate time
Willing to completely change his convictions at the drop of a hat (see above, w/ Shotty/Seraphim switch)

My vote would put him at L-1, but since we have the time I won't give it. I'll just join in the asking for a claim.

Here, he starts off the beginning of his next cycle, which is in this case the moving of his vote from Hindu to Prox. He declares exactly what he is doing, and feels it is very important to explain why he

isn't

already voting for Prox.

I want everyone to notice an important pattern here: Switz's suspicions are determined by what everyone else in the town is saying. He has followed town opinion like an obedient dog:

- He voted shotty only after everyone else had expressed suspicion of him.
- He moved his vote to G&H after

agreeing

with foilist and I, and became very flustered when he realized that I didn't actually want to lynch G&H immediately.
- He returns his vote to shotty, his initial, safe target.
- He moves onto Hindu for a very fake reason, obviously to distance himself and because he feels hindu is losing against foilist.
- He

talks about

, in passing, how he plans to vote Prox soon, and now agrees with everyone else, and is only abstaining to avoid putting Prox at L-1, but makes sure we know that he will "join in asking for a claim."

Switz has done very little truly original scum-hunting of his own (I won't say none, that would be a misrep), and certainly seems to be very mindful of town opinion. He doesn't commit to anything until he feels he has the backing from other people for it, and is always nervously analyzing himself in his posts to make sure there is nothing he can be attacked for.

I don't know what I can say to this to convince you otherwise. Yes, I have been over-mindful of town opinion, and yes, I've done very little original hunting (although there is some early in the Shotty case). But it's not because I'm scum. Not the strongest of arguments, and I'm not expecting it'll save me, but it needs to be said.

Conclusion[/u][/b]

You guys, we have our scum. I’m 100% on this, and I'm happy to lynch now.

Summary

Reasons that Switz is scum in order of significance:

1) He blatantly coaches confirmed scum Hinduragi and gives him preferential treatment on more than one occasion.
2) His play is filled with precisely the same kind of nervous energy that we nailed Hinduragi for yesterday. He over-explains, qualifies and requalifies, overreacts to things, and generally posts in ways that do not bespeak of a mindset which is ignorant of the roles. Most his reasoning sounds fabricated, and he goes to great lengths to make sure that every little detail of it is understood.
3) His votes are cast in a manner very reminiscent of classic scum play. He always picks safe targets, and always votes for players after OTHER people have expressed suspicion on them. Also, he very awkwardly foreshadows the progression of his suspicions before casting a vote in a way that seems contrived.
4) His hinduragi vote doesn't make any sense, and smells overwhelmingly like a bus that he didn't expect to go all the way through.

Let's do this guys.

vote: switz

So in response to your summary:

1) Read Reason 1
2) Read Reason 2
3) Read Reason 2
4) If it doesn't make sense, it's not a tell either way.

Silver case will be up tonight. Yes, I'm aware this is yet another example of me projecting what I'm going to do to town. But unless Seraphim is really the Cop and investigated me last night, this is my last Day and I need to get all my suspicions out in the open.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Well switz I just gotta say if you flip town I have like zero suspicion for silver

[foilist13]

@Switz: I do not buy your defence for two simple reasons.

1) You are displaying the same nervous energy you have all along.

2) Your defense consists solely of providing plausible alternatives and fails to convince us of them. That is a scummy defense.

I have no reason to change my vote.

[archaebob]

@ switz -

I'm gonna pick and choose what I respond to here. One, I don't have time right now to methodically go through all of it, two, a lot my individual attacks and your defenses deal with the same basic themes, and three, I think I can probably still get you lynched even with just a third of this case.

This was a blatant, direct statement that he was not going to vote accompanied by his suspicions, and it jumped right out at me. What didn't jump out at me was the realization that I was doing the same thing. But you'll note in my very next post that I backed off Shotty after he explained his actions. What would have been the point of this if I was "fabricating a gradual progression," as you say? This seems like a step backwards to me.

I'd also like to point out that my statement of qualification that you point out is not an immediate scumtell. Why do only scum have the desire to "make every little machination of their reasoning known to the town"? Why wouldn't town players want to make sure their ass is covered at such an early stage in the game? You yourself say town players can be uncertain, and that was uncertainty. Sincere uncertainty. I understand if you don't want to see it that way in the wake of Hinduragi's play, but there is no reason why making a qualifying statement in one post is a scumtell.

Switz, you are a reasonably intelligent person. Reasonably intelligent people come up with reasonably clever strategies for accomplishing their goals. Your goal in this game was to appear townish, despite having a scum role. Being a reasonably intelligent person, you knew from the beginning how to avoid obvious pitfalls, and how to inject a little uncertainty into your play to make it seem more natural. The fact that you are clever enough to recognize the utility of occasionally conceding points (because an honest town player would want to admit when they are wrong, wouldn't they?) even when you are scum does not make you any more likely to be town.

Backing off of shotty right then would seem like step backwards to a scum player who was ignorant of the complexity of this game. Yes, it was a step backwards in terms of the size of shotty's wagon in the short term, but it was a very deliberate step forwards in terms of Switz the player seeming townish in the long run.

Even here, you sound fake:

Hmm...fair points, shotty and Haylen. I'll withdraw my objections for the time being.

The tone of this post is too deliberately charismatic and reasonable sounding to come from town. What I'm missing is the distrust, the uncertainty, the feeling of inescapable paranoia that comes with being truly ignorant of the roles. Now, this post right here isn't the strongest example of this, which is why I didn't include it in my case. But it still fits the big picture.

Archaebob scum-hunting lesson #1:

Genuine uncertainty is almost always laced with an undercurrent of hostility to those whose role is unknown and who may or not be trying to kill them. The priority of those who are genuinely uncertain is the dissemination of information, and the lynching of scum. Fabricated uncertainty is often laced with contingency measures and qualifications built in to the contentions themselves, and is also often written in a very endearing and personable manner. The priority of those who wish to

appear

uncertain is to

convince

everyone else that they actually are uncertain in the way that they are trying to seem. This disparity in mindset is what generates scum-tells.

The above is an oversimplification, obviously, and a lot of this stuff really does boil down to gut reads. But you should generally be able to get my drift here. Your uncertainty does not

sound

sincere to me. Period.

I have examples too. You guys want to see what Archaebob looks like when

he

wants to make every little machination of his reasoning understood by the town? Well, you should probably read his first scum game, which is also his first game ever.

You'll see from reading that scum meta of mine why it is that I just

know

, completely, that you are the scum, switz. There is not a lot you can do at this point.

--

The above is a pretty all encompassing response to the various sections of your rebuttal where you claim "sincerity" as your defense in response to displaying nervous energy, so I'm going to move on to the other topics.

Honestly, I overreacted here. I saw Prox ask Shotty who he wanted to lynch, then I saw Shotty had answered Silver's question and ignored Prox's so I jumped on him. At the time it was just enough evidence for me, now I think I would have just had the earlier part of the post, asking him to answer Prox's question.

And my conversation with Hindu was incredibly naive, and I'm kicking myself for it now. But I can use it in my favor now, because while you're reading it as a scum conversation, it was meant in an entirely pro-town fashion. Here's my thought process: "I think Shotty is now worthy of my vote. However, I don't want him to get lynched unless he really is scum, so it'd probably be a good idea to make sure anyone random voting is off the wagon, so I'll give Hindu a heads-up."

Yes, I'm aware it's dumb, and I'm also aware that my thoughts probably weren't that developed. But I've got no other defense for making that post other than to say it was a mistake.

It's not just a "mistake". A "mistake" is a town player who unintentionally does something that hurts town out of inexperience or poor judgement. This is not a "mistake", as it betrays a mindset fundamentally disconnected from that of town.

Here's your supposed thought process: "I think Shotty is now worthy of my vote. However, I don't want him to get lynched unless he really is scum, so it'd probably be a good idea to make sure anyone random voting is off the wagon, so I'll give Hindu a heads-up."

The reason why this is scummy, and not just a mistake, is the fact that your reaction to Hindu was a desire to give him a "heads-up", rather than a desire to figure out what the hell he was doing.

So yes, it is true that you have no defense against this point. A scumhunter's gotta do what a scumhunter's gotta do, y'know?

Yeah, Shotty and G&H were/are easy targets. But if you'll look at my posts I wasn't following Hinduragi. I was following Prox, and I'll admit it. I didn't pick up on the fact that most of his argument was a slightly more elaborate form of Hinduragi's, but when I read it I thought "this makes sense" and decided it would be worthwhile to support this idea. It was sloppy but it was a newb mistake, not a scum ploy. As I played with Shotty, here and in other games I won't say more about, I began to realize that his illogic is not necessarily a scumtell, which is the point where I began to back off.

And, again, this post is based in the false assumption that Hinduragi was town.

Again, you had no reason to think that Hindu was town at this point in the game.

The funny thing is, I actually believe you when you say that "it was newb mistake." It was a newb-scum mistake .

You and Foilist convinced me going after G&H was the smartest town move, and then as soon as I voted G&H you turned around and implied that I wasn't accomplishing anything with my vote. Of course I overreacted. Yes, I voted G&H because you and Foilist were. But because I agreed with what you thought, not because I was trying to bandwagon him.

We have no way of taking you at your word, and it seems like you were trying to bandwagon him, based on your overreaction to my questions.

I don't know what I can say to this to convince you otherwise. Yes, I have been over-mindful of town opinion, and yes, I've done very little original hunting (although there is some early in the Shotty case). But it's not because I'm scum. Not the strongest of arguments, and I'm not expecting it'll save me, but it needs to be said.

To me, this amounts to concession of defeat. The fact that you are admitting to not having a defense against my attack doesn't make my attack weaker.

And again, the pleasant, self-deprecating tone of this entire rebuttal seems more like mafia who

knows

he has been caught and is trying to seem reasonable about the situation than town who feels like he has been unjustly accused. I have a mental profile of what kind of thinker and personality you are, and this fits what I would have expected from you as scum. I appreciate your honesty and kind-heartedness, and I think this was a clever attempt at defense, but ultimately I'm still convinced that I've caught my scum.

I'm willing to let switz post his silver case, and I would like to hear from Seraphim before the hammer.

@ Seraphim -

where are you? since Switz seems determined to drag this out to the bitter end, it'd be really awesome if you could show up and make us feel better about not suspecting your claim anymore. Do you have a confirmed townie for us? Or a scum?

[Switz]

Ok, well I guess all I have to say is good luck on Day 3 then, cause you're going to wake up in the morning if you lynch me, I guarantee it. At least having lynched Hinduragi keeps you out of Lynch or Lose tomorrow.

Here's my Silver case, for all the good it'll do me. My comp is being a bitch so I'm sending it as two posts in the hope that works:

Silver doesn't really start the game until page 5, although he does answer Shotty's questions earlier. This is his first real post, and in it he unvotes his RVS (Haylen), says we are getting "serious so soon," brings up those who haven't posted yet, and says he doesn't want to lynch anyone yet. But then in his very next post he encourages Shotty to keep voting for G&H if he wants him dead. This isn't an direct contradiction, but it does seem odd for him to be saying "let's not lynch anyone" out of one corner of his mouth and "if you want to lynch someone you should" from the other.

Especially in the wake of the contradiction he actually calls Shotty on:

nah im good, but i will hammer him if he gets L-1.

If he were to get to L-1 in the next 2 hours, you would hammer?

yes i would hammer because that means others feel he would hurt the town as do I.

Why would you be willing to end the day so incredibly early? We have quite awhile to gather info on everyone... there are still people who haven't posted yet... and G&H's actions (not intentions) in my mind haven't really given me room for judgement yet.. also there still are two people that haven't even posted yet

Silver's not nearly as concerned about the fact that Shotty would be potentially hammering someone town as he is the fact that Day would be ending early, and then there's that repeated focus on waiting until everyone shows up that's going to be a major theme throughout.

In addition, Silver adds this tidbit at the end of his post:

I would vote shotty but that throws him on L-1,

and I'd like to actually get a few reads on others and hear from the other two people before this day ends.

If this is scummy when I do it, it's certainly got to be scummy when he does it. And then there's that desire to wait again, for the third time in one post.

His next post is only significant because he gives Hindu a "cookie" for his case, but then G&H questions him on his odd request from above, where he tells Shotty to keep his vote on G&H even though he himself is not willing to vote G&H. Here's what he says:

I unvoted you because it was RVS on you and I didn't find it applicable to keep the vote on you as you weren't suspicious at the time to me. It seemed that I had "convinced" shotty to unvote you as well. Since (if memory serves me right) his vote was not RVS and votes to pressure someone in my mind always helped. Basically I did not mind his vote on you as I said, pressure is always good and you were only at l-3 with my unvote (I believe anyway). Is that sufficient or would you like me to go in even greater detail?

So basically, Silver's saying he thinks G&H isn't suspicious, but he thinks Shotty should have left his vote on G&H to put pressure on him. Doesn't this look like a bit of a discrepancy?

Then Silver comes back to the question he asked Shotty (in ISO 10) about why he would want to end the day so early. And I think it's very telling what he says about it.

Right now I would throw my vote on you til you answered said question. However I still want reads on the other 2 who have contributed nothing yet thus I'm holding off. But just warning you right now, your #1 on my list until you at least answer said question.

Shotty's "#1" on Silver's list, but he's choosing not to vote for him anyways. Why? Apparently, because Silver doesn't have reads on the two people who haven't posted yet. What's more, Shotty's only going to be #1 on his list until he answers Silver's question. Yet only a few posts prior, back in ISO 10, Silver says the same thing, that he would throw his vote on Shotty except for <blank>. He's consistently staying away from the wagon while giving it and Hinduragi his implicit support.

Then G&H steps in, and it seems like he's the only one who's consistently questioning Silver about his own contradiction in the chain of Q&A with Shotty. He asks,

So you confirm that you had no problem with drmyshottyizsik's vote staying on me. When you said that to drmyshottyizsik, you added: "Worse case scenario is Good & Honest gets quickhammered which then lets us investigate the wagon and more than likely the hammerer". It sounded to me like you didn't think that that worst case scenario was really bad, i.e., even if I was quickly lynched, there would be something to investigate.

However, then you asked drmyshottyizsik "If he were to get to L-1 in the next 2 hours, you would hammer?" and when drmyshottyizsik answered [...] your reaction was "Why would you be willing to end the day so incredibly early? We have quite awhile to gather info on everyone... there are still people who haven't posted yet... and G&H's actions (not intentions) in my mind haven't really given me room for judgement yet.. also there still are two people that haven't even posted yet!". This sounds to me like you were definitely against that "worst case scenario", which previously didn't seem to be that big of a problem for you.

Silver responds with a vague statement that there's a difference between voting for someone and being ready to hammer them, but that doesn't really answer G&H's question. What G&H wants to know is why Silver was okay with G&H getting hammered when the town's main target was G&H and why he wasn't when the main target was Shotty. The answer: because he's scum.

And then in that same post, he suggests to Hindu that ganging up on Shotty isn't bad, and he's totally okay with wagons shifting around until they find someone the town can agree on: a strategy that doesn't help town in the slightest. He should be actively scumhunting, not waiting around for everyone else to decide who scum is. That's something scum would do.

Here, he's still infuriatingly noncommittal on the Shotty wagon. Apparently, he thinks Shotty is scum, but doesn't want to cast his vote until people react to the replacements. This is just getting ridiculous. And then there's this, his first post after Arch votes Hinduragi. He doesn't agree with Arch or disagree, he just passively asks Hindu to post links to his prior games, presumably as a way for his scumpartner to defend himself. This is the closest he comes to forming any sort of position on Hinduragi all game, except for giving him a cookie for his case.

More notably, as soon as Hindu is suspected, the quantity and quality of Silver's posts declines further and further. He doesn't post anything game-related until the focus has been shifted to G&H by Foilist and Arch, but all he asks is what G&H's success rate is--a prime example of active lurking. He then gives a nonresponse to a question I ask him about questioning Shotty earlier, but then vanishes while Foilist goes after Hinduragi again, only resurfacing after Arch specifically asks him why he's not voting, at which point he votes G&H. He tries to justify both his vote and his reason why he hadn't voted before, but I'm not buying it anymore:

I didn't throw a vote as I wanted to see Good's reactions and if he would actually change... throwing my vote on him now cause it's obvious he won't and I'll be suspicious of him the whole game. His post just seemed to be begging to get off his back about the playstyle and he's not going to stop thus i'm fine with him bein lynched for now.

Which would be okay except this is the first time since his semi-random vote at the beginning of the game when he's expressed any interest in lynching G&H. He's just following what he believes to be the wishes of the town as a whole as well as pulling attention away from his scumbuddy Hinduragi.

Shortly after, Arch points out that the town is not ready to lynch G&H yet, and says sticking to the wagon is scummy and active lurking. Silver responds by throwing out this convoluted reasoning:

Ummmmm bob... where did i say... "LETS LYNCH G&H NOW!"? No kidding the town isn't ready to lynch him yet... all I've said is i'm fine if he ends up getting lynched for now and threw my vote on him to add some actual pressure to him. Maybe he'll actually do something. Since when has adding pressure done nothing (exception being haylen apparently).

Here's the play-by-play of this paragraph, from Silver's POV with my response in bold.

I didn't say "Let's lynch G&H now."

Except the reason you gave for your vote is because he won't change his playstyle and you'll be suspicious of him the whole game. This, at the very least, implies that you will not change your vote, so it doesn't matter how long Day takes for you.

Of course the town isn't ready to lynch him yet.
I'm okay if he gets lynched, for now.

This contradicts your reason for voting him. You say here there is a possibility you will unvote him, but your reason for voting on him hinges on something that will not change. Why, then, would there be a possibility that you would unvote him--except to jump on a better bandwagon.

I voted him to add pressure, maybe he'll do something now.

This doesn't make sense either. G&H shows absolutely no signs of changing his playstyle at this point. If you wanted to productively hunt for scum, you'd be putting pressure elsewhere.

After Arch goes after him for this, he responds, going through each of Arch's accusations one by one. Going through each isn't very helpful, but one in particular sticks out at me.

----If you think you've played well so far, then by all means, show me the error of my ways.
I've gotten reads on mainly everyone here thus far... I concentrate on one scum at a time... the one person i'm leaning scum though am not fully sure is G&H thus my pressure on him.

This is patently untrue. The only way this would be a true statement is if Silver has a read on everyone which he has kept privately to himself and never hinted at in his posts--and there's no indication that this is the case--or if Silver is scum, in which he would of course have a read on everyone in the game.

Silver then goes back to posting with minimal content for a few days, returning on page 12 where he posts noncommittal reads on both G&H and Shotty. In his next post, he begins a short conversation with Hinduragi that is the only time the two ever address each other directly:

SB - Why is your vote still on G&H? I thought we established that all we have from him so far is that he has an anti-town playstyle. Your play so far for me is null tell leaning scum. Also, sarcasm aside, based on the post where you voted G&H, it seems like you did that because you were pressured to post. When you replied to bob, I don't agree with putting votes on G&H just to pressure him. Remember that he was already L-2. He stated at L-2 his playstyle would remain indifferent. If we move him to L-1, I see a possible mislynch in case a random townie starts seeing the point of voting him and he is accidentally quick lynched.

Hindu - whoops...
[...]
Votes still on G&H cause I'm not sure if I wanna hop the shotty wagon just yet as we still gots a weekish before our deadline. (Basically the vote on G&H is harmless now and I want more responses from certain people before I decide to switch). When was he at L-2 though?

SB - He was at L-2 on page 4, post 85, during the VC. Also, is there another reason as to why you voted Arch so suddenly?

-Hindu, Prox
[...]
Your questions are similar thus grouped!
I am leaning arch being scum right now as 1. He's made 2 (or more?) posts already... without mentioning my case. Granted his latest post quickly talks of V/LA (how convenient..) but he went out of his way to make another case... while ignoring my own against him. Thus why my vote is on him

In the wake of Hinduragi being revealed as scum, doesn't this conversation, especially the first part, read like a scumconversation?

Hindu: Why are you still voting G&H? You look scum. You only voted him because you got pressured to.
Silver: I'm not sure if I want to be on the Shotty wagon. I'll get off soon though.

And when he makes the last post, he's halfway to doing just that, jumping off G&H to vote Prox. First, he plants the seeds, at the bottom of the above-quoted post:

Prox-
However Prox... your all of a sudden liking towards shotty... tempts me heavily to throw my vote on you.

How do you go from calling him an idiot to a bud? Explain...

And then votes for him in his very next post without giving any reasons except some vague mentions of "flailing." It plays exactly like his earlier hesitancy on G&H and Shotty, except this time, he's forced to vote right away because we're nearing deadline.

And that's pretty much it. There's not much content in his remaining posts of D1, although he does follow Hinduragi somewhat in his statement that Arch is town. D2 he's had one useless post where he throws his support behind my lynch with a few faint words of congratulations and then fades away.

So here's the crux of the case:

Silver has been active lurking the majority of the game.
His play is defined by an inexplicable desire to put off taking action as long as possible, both personally and game-wide.
He repeatedly posts his suspicions without votes, and refuses to actually cast the appropriate vote for as long as possible.
His reasons for voting/suspecting both G&H and Shotty are contradictory.
He and Hinduragi rarely interact on any level, sharing only one conversation which can be read in the context of a scumconversation.
He has absolutely no opinion on the Hinduragi case, and actively tries to draw attention away from it.

So, if you don't want to mislynch me today,

Vote: Silver

. If not, I guess I won't see you in the morning.

[Good and Honest]

Wow! I just have to say it - this is my first game on this site where I have survived until the second day!

Hinduragi and Prox, good luck in the future! I have some things I'd like to tell each of you but I guess I'll do it when the game ends.

archaebob, you have presented quite an impressive case on Switz. However, as I also said after your case on Hinduragi, a method of convincing such as yours actually has an opposite effect on me (especially when you say things like "I think I can probably still get you lynched even with just a third of this case")... As a whole, your case makes sense. But, from the moment foilist13 first mentioned that Switz's style was similar to that of Hinduragi, I have been thinking about that and I don't really think their styles are that similar. Also, I'm worried that when you concentrate on a particular player, you're not paying much attention to the others (for example, you admitted not really paying attention to Prox). While that works if the player is a mafioso (like was the case with Hinduragi), it might not be good when you're wrong...

foilist13, I'm somewhat confused by your post where Switz's name is formed by the first letters of the different paragraphs. So you did it to prove that at the time you were suspecting Switz. Why was that important?

Switz, I still want to know why when drmyshottyizsik suggested that we shouldn't focus on just a couple of players, you chose to inspect exactly silverbullet999.

I have to say your vote for Hinduragi shocked me. archaebob's analysis is right about the fact that you explain in a succession of posts your willingness to vote for someone before you do it. The only time you didn't follow that pattern was when you voted for Hinduragi - that came out of the blue. The problem isn't really the reasons you gave but the fact that this sudden vote was completely opposite to your previous behaviour. Based on how you played before that, I would have expected you to question Hinduragi about that statement - but without voting. I would have expected you to potentially vote for Hinduragi after a couple more posts discussing/interrogating Hinduragi. Why was that the only occasion when you acted "impulsively"?

There is also another point against you - you actually admit that at the beginning of the game you were "following" Prox - and not Hinduragi. But that definitely makes sense if you are a mafioso. As a mafioso, you would have no problems "following" an innocent townsperson (Prox) but you would be careful not to obviously "follow" your mafia partner (Hinduragi)...

And now - a few things about the interactions between Switz and Hinduragi that in my opinion make it less likely that Switz is a mafioso.

Look at Hinduragi's post #143. There Hinduragi gives an example: Prox, an innocent townsperson, attacks drmyshottyizsik; Switz, a mafioso, seemingly agrees with the attack and as a result drmyshottyizsik is lynched. The first point is - even if this were just an example, why would Hinduragi even suggest the possibility of Switz being a mafioso if Switz was indeed Hinduragi's mafia partner? Hinduragi's style in the beginning seemed to be to avoid suspicion - but wouldn't the idea be also not to cast suspicion on the partner?

The other thing remarkable in post #143 is what Hinduragi tells Switz: "Ok.. this is what I meant. Everyone has been attacking Shotty. We have not even had a proper discussion as to who else might be mafia. I don't mean to put any blame towards you. I'm just using you as an example of where I'm coming from in the following sentence". Does this sound familiar? It's one of many examples where Hinduragi tries not to "attract animosity". But if Switz were Hinduragi's partner, then Hinduragi wouldn't need to be afraid of attracting Switz's animosity!

Then there is Hinduragi's post #269. archaebob had asked Hinduragi to share thoughts on Switz. Hinduragi did it and in the following paragraph told archaebob: "I'm not really sure what your game is so far. I suspect you to be pro-town but you could just as well be this aggressive every game regardless of your faction. Do you have any past games where you are mafia?". However, Switz misunderstood who that was addressed to and answered: "Sorry, I don't have any other finished games on this site, mafia or otherwise. And I haven't played online in years, so I honestly don't even know where I'd find old ones, but I'd hope my ability to play games like this has improved/changed since then, so it probably wouldn't help anyways".

Now, Switz could have misunderstood that regardless of role in the game. The important thing is that Switz's answer sounds completely honest (at least to me) - almost like a defence. And why would Switz need to make an honest defence against a mafia partner?

Finally, a point which may be minor but still - Hinduragi's post #293. At the end of Hinduragi's previous post, Hinduragi comments on Prox's post... but talks to Switz, not Prox. I must admit that during the game I have also mixed up Prox and Switz once or twice. The thing is - is it likely that Hinduragi would mix up a mafia partner and an innocent townsperson?

I'm not sure whether these points prove that Switz is not Hinduragi's mafia partner. But I think they show that other possibilities should also be considered.

I'll now talk about silverbullet999.

silverbullet999, I previously asked you something but maybe you missed it because it was in my longest post. So - when you voted for me, you said: "I didn't throw a vote as I wanted to see Good's reactions and if he would actually change... throwing my vote on him now cause it's obvious he won't and I'll be suspicious of him the whole game". Why did you say that you'll be suspicious of me the whole game as if that's a bad thing? Shouldn't you be suspicious (at least to some extent) of every player during the whole game?

By the way, there is something about the interaction between archaebob and silverbullet999 that's been bothering me. In post #235 archaebob says this about Haylen: "For example, her most recent post sounds a little pressured, and seems to have been at least partially a reaction to the votes on her". In the very next post silverbullet999 questions which post archaebob is talking about. Much, much later archaebob cites Haylen's post that sounded pressured to archaebob... However, that post of Haylen is post #246 - i.e., it was made AFTER archaebob initially mentioned that a post by Haylen sounded pressured! I'm puzzled by archaebob's action. However, it seems even stranger to me that silverbullet999 quickly agreed with archaebob that that post sounded pressured and didn't even bother to check the chronology... While after archaebob's original mention of a pressured post by Haylen in post #235, silverbullet999 immediately checked the chronology to point out that Haylen's LAST post at the time wasn't pressured...

I have already said that silverbullet999's approach towards this game is not very active and seems "planned" in a way. I don't think that in and of itself shows whether someone is a mafioso. However, this approach has allowed silverbullet999 to selectively comment on just a few things during the game. Switz makes a good point about the small number of interactions between silverbullet999 and Hinduragi. silverbullet999, why didn't you share any thoughts on Hinduragi's situation - especially after archaebob's and foilist13's initial accusations against Hinduragi?

I also find silverbullet999's post #280 interesting. I think its main purpose was to show more contribution than usual. And yes, most of the other players in the game are mentioned in this post. But there are comments only about a few of them - Haylen, me and drmyshottyizsik - the ones who had already been discussed a lot. And Prox isn't mentioned at all in this post. As a whole, there are several players silverbullet999 has interacted very little with - Prox, Switz, Hinduragi... I think a probable explanation is that when asked about the lack of interactions with Hinduragi (the partner), silverbullet999 would be able to use this as excuse: "But there were other players I didn't interact with much, either!"...

And, unlike the case with Switz and Hinduragi, the interactions between silverbullet999 and Hinduragi don't make it look less likely that they are partners. I'll say it again - archaebob's analysis of Hinduragi's play (that Hinduragi was trying to avoid suspicion) was valid for the beginning of the game - until the moment archaebob and foilist13 appeared. Before that point, as I showed, Hinduragi had talked to Switz using exactly this style - trying not to "attract animosity".

However, before archaebob's and foilist13's arrival, Hinduragi hadn't used the same style when talking to silverbullet999... because Hinduragi hadn't mentioned silverbullet999 at all! Yes, at the beginning of the game Hinduragi didn't mention silverbullet999 even once! The first time Hinduragi did it was in the post provoked by archaebob where Hinduragi put silverbullet999 as the third most likely player to be a mafioso...

Of course, this doesn't prove 100% that silverbullet999 is Hinduragi's mafia partner. But people shouldn't be focusing only on Switz (or silverbullet999). I believe that all possibilities should be explored. However, I think what I have written so far is enough for now.

[Excedrin]

Vote Count

Switz (3): archaebob, drmyshottyizsik, foilist13
silverbullet999 (1): Switz

not voting: Seraphim, Good and Honest, silverbullet999
alive: 7 majority: 4

prodded: Seraphim