Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[Tazaro]

@Tazaro: You seem to know a lot about vezokpiraka's meta. Have you played a game with him or are you in an ongoing game with him. Furthermore, why do you keep defending vezokpiraka with the "meta/VI" excuse so much?

I played with him before. I'm defending him because he is being targetted by diddin and KageLord's tag-team of voting and I see it as a push to lynch the VI. Considering diddin's change FROM saying that Friend might be scumming so he'll look closer at Poirot TO saying he just wanted to RECONFIRM his town read on someone who he previously implied might be scum based on Friend. This change is fishy to me, and he's being very adamant about undermining what I'm saying about vezo.

[Oso]

Ok, I guess the easiest way to clarify my thoughts is the game state at lynch yesterday.

Aranneas(jayfl383)

- MIA at the time. Vote on Poirot, no chance that will change before lynch.

Sooty7/KageLord

- Vote on Diddin(Sooty) and vezo(KG). No reason to expect, at least in my opinion, that their votes would move off those players other than to avoid a no lynch. (Both stated that in posts).

SSBF

- Vote on Vezo. Read him in ISO and going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think his vote would have changed even to avoid a no-lynch (@SSBF, if you did say that you would hammer to prevent no-lynch I missed it. Point out where and I'll retract this). Pretty much has stuck to a vezo lynch and I got the impression nothing was budging him off that for Day 1. Reinforced by the fact he is back on vezo today.

This (Post 421):

...
3. We should not be concerned about a lack of a Night Kill on a townie.

Bugs me. Granted, uncontrolled, public speculation of why it happened would be harmful at this point but complete unconcern would be equally as harmful. Something happened in the game that is not normal for night one of a mafia game. If nothing else, acknowledging that fact and getting people to think as to reasons WHY it might have happened is a good thing even though over-discussing it in the thread at this point would be counter productive. Everyone should be giving considerable thought on reasons why it may have happened, in my opinion, and trying to see if they can make those reasons fit even if they don't want them discussed right now. So for that comment, my estimation of his alignment took a slight hit.

quadz08

- Dead but vote on vezo. No chance of a vote change on to his own wagon.

Those voting quadz

Poirot

- Started the wagon on quadz. While I can't see anything overtly scummy about his reasons, my tirade against him yesterday wasn't completely baseless in my mind. The main point was to go a bit around the bend to specifically see what KG and Poirot would do with it but also, I got the distinct feeling that while he thought part of my reasoning on KG was bogus for going after KG, he felt that same reasoning was just fine for going after quadz. Also, this:

KageLord?
Yes.
He is trying to hard to paint someone scum. (I E : When I SSBF posted before me he made a pretty big case saying I am scum just because of that.) I just found this scum hunting tehnique a few days ago and it never proved me wrong. People who try too hard to make someone seem scummy are usually scum.

...

Is he the only one doing that? The only one trying hard to paint someone as scum?

Since that was the post he addressed my case against KG I can only assume that he was asking vezo (and anyone else who read the post) to at least consider that I was doing the same thing to KG. I expect that to come up again if KG is ever NKed or lynched and flips town and I am still around.

So yeah, Poirot isn't high on my list of who might be town at the moment. I did give serious consideration to what Sooty7 said about him considering the 'Oso vs Poirot by play' as a town vs town fight to the death though. And since Sotty is outside the argument and has a different perspective than I do, I'm willing to grant at the moment he may have a point.

xvart

- Not much to say here. I'm of the opinion that especially on day 1, town lynches town and scum don't really have to do much but push it along here and there. That's my call right now on xvart, he made a good case on a person he thought stood a good chance to be scum. He was wrong though but as I said yesterday, doesn't seem like a typical scum case built up to lynch a weak townie. Struck me as a town case that was wrong.

vezo

- Basically gave his vote to the quadz lynch, in my opinion, because it was the easiest thing to do at that point. Never pulled it off and is the single most scummiest vote on the quadz wagon. This is why my vote is staying on vezo at the moment. He had the scummiest reason (in this case, pretty much no reason) to be voting quadz. AND ALSO because of the confusion yesterday around several people thinking he had softclaimed a PR, I want to get rid of that confusion today. Outing a town PR in vezo's case, carries less risk to town than continuing without a claim. He's a scum magnet right now because of his play so far and I'd like to know for myself what role he would claim (or is). It would go a long way clearing up some of the static I am getting about my reads on other players based off of him.

q21/myself

- Lumping us both together and yes, I am including myself here. Considerably less scummy votes than vezo's but still not great. Not going to dig into the point by point differences here but we both (I know I did and I'm guessing that q21's thinking was similar based on his vote post) basically took a look at what already had been presented against quadz08, who presented it, called it good and voted.

diddin

- Hard to read this, Starts off the day voting Tasky, switches to vezo, switches to SSBF and ends the day on quadz. His posts may be inconsistent but his late day votes aren't. Post 294 he list his top three scum suspects and SSBF is first and quadz second. With xvart's comments on using quadz's meta to connect him with SSBF (NOTE: Before anyone reads into that, xvart had quadz as scum independent of meta. He only used meta to connect with SSBF if I understood him correctly) I see no real inconsistency with him switching to suspect #2 when it becomes apparent that suspect #1 isn't going anywhere. Especially that late in the day especially as he been shown a method that strengthens his read on suspect #1 if suspect #2 flips scum.

Tazaro

- No read/ weak town read as a holdover from Tasky. I don't like the way he came in and hammered but that is not game related so I switched him back to the read I had before he hammered.

So, vezo is where my vote stays at the moment. I realize that I am voting him more for a claim than as a potential lynch so that might be considered scummy/role-fishing but there it is.

Second and third in my book right now? SSBF and perhaps Poirot or Diddin. Not sure I'd want to lynch any of them three at the moment though although putting any one of those three under the microscope and pressurizing them (like what is happening to Diddin at the moment) is OKfine by me.

[Tazaro]

vezo

- Basically gave his vote to the quadz lynch, in my opinion, because it was the easiest thing to do at that point. Never pulled it off and is the single most scummiest vote on the quadz wagon. This is why my vote is staying on vezo at the moment. He had the scummiest reason (in this case, pretty much no reason) to be voting quadz. AND ALSO because of the confusion yesterday around several people thinking he had softclaimed a PR, I want to get rid of that confusion today.

Outing a town PR in vezo's case, carries less risk to town than continuing without a claim. He's a scum magnet right now because of his play so far and I'd like to know for myself what role he would claim (or is).

It would go a long way clearing up some of the static I am getting about my reads on other players based off of him.

I hope vezo reads this; he definitely needs to claim.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Vote on Vezo. Read him in ISO and going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think his vote would have changed even to avoid a no-lynch

(@SSBF, if you did say that you would hammer to prevent no-lynch I missed it. Point out where and I'll retract this)

. Pretty much has stuck to a vezo lynch and I got the impression nothing was budging him off that for Day 1. Reinforced by the fact he is back on vezo today.

I think I said a few times that I would hammer quadz08 if it became apperent that he was going to be lynched. This is what I could find in my ISO:

Willing to lynch him if vezokpiraka doesn't ge through ToDay.

Since he is at L-1, I am still willing to hammer if it becomes certain that quadz08 is the play for ToDay.

This means that I was willing to hammer quadz08 if his lynch became certain. Had I gotten up early enough at the day of the deadline, I would have placed the hammer on quadz08 before Tazaro did to prevent a No Lynch. Just because a person is not my top suspect doesn't mean I'm going to let a No Lynch go through, especially when it's a person I already thought was scummy.

Bugs me. Granted, uncontrolled, public speculation of why it happened would be harmful at this point but complete unconcern would be equally as harmful. Something happened in the game that is not normal for night one of a mafia game. If nothing else, acknowledging that fact and getting people to think as to reasons WHY it might have happened is a good thing even though over-discussing it in the thread at this point would be counter productive. Everyone should be giving considerable thought on reasons why it may have happened, in my opinion, and trying to see if they can make those reasons fit even if they don't want them discussed right now. So for that comment, my estimation of his alignment took a slight hit.

I did say we shouldn't be concerned about the lack of a Night Kill, that is true. However, I did not say that we should not have any form of discussions regarding the lack of a Night Kill nor am I attempting to stop discussion regarding it.

Another obvious benefit to the lack of a Night Kill is that we have more mislynches to use. Assuming this is a three-scum set-up, had we received a Night Kill, two mislynches would result in a scum win. Since we got lucky and we don't have a Night Kill, three mislynches would result in a scum win. This buys us more time to find scums and increases the chance of a town win.

However, I will give my thought on what could have caused the lack of a Night Kill as said before, I don't mind it. My opinions on the three options you've presented:

1. Highly unlikely. A smart scum would never want to forfeit a Night Kill, one of their best weapons against the town.

2. A role that pops into my mind is a Serial Killer, which is usually bulletproof. However, as we did not receive a kill yesterday, we probably don't have an independent role. Mafia Godfather is another possible NK-immune role, althought this isn't a staple in Mafia Godfather roles. I can't really see this being on a townie, thought.

3. Most likely out of the three. Most Mini's have a Doctor as part of the set-up. As we do not have a Night Kill, we probably have a Doctor.

[q21]

Top 3 scumspects:

1. SSBF
2. quadz
3. vezo

KageLord is a close fourth.

Here is your scumlist from yesterday... Why was SSBF at the top of that list? More importantly, he seems to have completely dropped off of your scumlist today. Why? Especially in light of this:

xvart, tasky is v/la for a while if I recall correctly.

I'm happy voting quadz if we can lynch SSBF tomorrow.

unvote, Vote: Quadz

My best guess is that a scumbuddy of yours (maybe SSBF himself, maybe not) told you to back off him last night.

[q21]

Forgot to copy this into the Post Reply window of my last post...

Good. We lynched obvious scum.
Two more to go. I bet money on SSBF and diddin.

You say I am a weak player.
Scum always try to force a mislynch on me.
If diddin flips town tazaro should be the next to go.

This is a direct contradiction. First you say "SSBF and diddin are obv scum," then later you say "if diddin flips town tazaro should be lynched next."

Seems REALLY opportunistic because there are a handful of people who are suspicious of Tazaro and you can just bandwagon with them even though you said SSBF is obv scum.

That is not a direct contradiction. He didn't say SSBF and diddin are obvscum; he seems confident about it, but does call them obvious. In the second post the does then call diddin town, he accounts for the possibility that he's town. At worst its a little (and I emphasise little) contradictory - calling it a "direct contradiction" is exaggeration. And is scummy.

[Oso]

Vote on Vezo. Read him in ISO and going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think his vote would have changed even to avoid a no-lynch

(@SSBF, if you did say that you would hammer to prevent no-lynch I missed it. Point out where and I'll retract this)

. Pretty much has stuck to a vezo lynch and I got the impression nothing was budging him off that for Day 1. Reinforced by the fact he is back on vezo today.

I think I said a few times that I would hammer quadz08 if it became apperent that he was going to be lynched. This is what I could find in my ISO:

Willing to lynch him if vezokpiraka doesn't ge through ToDay.

Since he is at L-1, I am still willing to hammer if it becomes certain that quadz08 is the play for ToDay.

This means that I was willing to hammer quadz08 if his lynch became certain. Had I gotten up early enough at the day of the deadline, I would have placed the hammer on quadz08 before Tazaro did to prevent a No Lynch. Just because a person is not my top suspect doesn't mean I'm going to let a No Lynch go through, especially when it's a person I already thought was scummy.

Ok. As promised, I take that back. No excuse as to why I didn't see it other than 'skimming is not equal to reading'. I find I'm actually doing the first when I think I'm doing the second on occasion.

[diddin]

You know why i was suspicious of SSBF, I posted a case on him a while back due to his "Defense is a Scumtell" thing. I think he's acted a bit more town and he's on my neutral-scummy list now.

My revised scumlist is:

1. vezo- I've already said why
2. Tazaro- WAY too eager to defend vezo as a VI, play has been a bit... off to me. Probably wouldn't be here but the vezo connection puts him up.
3. Don't really have a third scumspect at the moment other than KageLord due to the whole post time controversy during the D1 vezo wagon.

We're obviously not going to be lynching SSBF today so it's pointless to be voting him from my perspective.

I wanna hear from vezo why SSBF dropped off his scumlist for tazaro for no apparent reason.

q21: what is your opinion on vezo?

[Tazaro]

My defense of vezo is justified by the attacks on vezo by diddin that are of the same bad character as the "direct contradiction" that q21 pointed out.

[q21]

You know why i was suspicious of SSBF, I posted a case on him a while back due to his "Defense is a Scumtell" thing. I think he's acted a bit more town and he's on my neutral-scummy list now.

See I don't buy this. Your attitude of "voting quadz if we can lynch SSBF tomorrow" and you're barely even mentioning his name today... just don't correlate and that lack of correlation isn't explained by this post. When did he have time to act more town? Over night? Because I don't see anything super townie in his opening posts of the day that could so radically change your mind.

Unvote, Vote diddin

q21: what is your opinion on vezo?

That he's VI and that that could be hiding a scum. If it comes down to me having to hammer him at deadline I won't hesitate, but I don't see the point in joining in the pressure on him because he's just going to sprout more VI-ness.

[q21]

BTW That's L-1

Claim.

[diddin]

Will do.

I'm a

Town Jailkeeper Neighbour

.

Every night I can choose one person to lock up in jail. They are both protected from all night actions directed towards them and roleblocked. I am neighbours with Oso and Humble Poirot, but don't know anything about their alignment.

Last night, I locked up sotty7. I figured this would be a good jailkeep either way, because I got a town read from sotty D1. I've also heard sotty plays a good scum game, so I locked him up in case he's smart scum so i can potentially roleblock him.

I believe this explains the no night kill, but sadly, I cannot confirm sotty as town or scum.

[Oso]

I confirm the Neighbor part of his role claim.

Diddin, myself and Poirot are indeed neighbors with each other but we are

unconfirmed

as far as alignment with each other.

[Tazaro]

I believe his claim. Especially since Neighbour was spelled with a "u." The mod is Australian, I think.

UNVOTE: diddin

[Aranneas]

Would you folks feel comfortable summarizing the neighbour chat from last night for our benefit? Why/why not?

[Tazaro]

Wait a minute, the "neighbour" thing is believable, but the "town jailkeeper" isn't necessarily true.
And I'm willing to bet the "neighbor" thing is used by the mod because at least one of the three neighbors is scum. Or else you could be called masons that may or may not have power roles.

FoS: diddin

. I'm not sure, but you could be making up the sotty thing on the back of the no-nightkill that could have another explantion.

[Tazaro]

Would you folks feel comfortable summarizing the neighbour chat from last night for our benefit? Why/why not?

This.

[Oso]

I personally have no problem doing that. Basically, since we are all unconfirmed as to alignment, there isn't a whole lot of trust in there.

The beginning of the night was a few posts about how that trust might be built. Not many ideas other than if one of us is flipped or NKed and that person turns out town, that the other two out their their status and go at each other based on the assumption that there is one scum in the group.

Also some discussion between myself and diddin about hiding/revealing our neighbor status during role claims (Poirot was absent in this discussion as he had been absent except for the first real-life day of night 1. He mentioned internet problems in his last post, so that makes sense)

I did a wagon analysis that is close (but not exactly the same) as the one I walled here for you folks.

Also, Poirot said he would post an analysis but didn't (he mentioned internet problems in his last post, so that makes sense)

Also, I will say that of the suspects he(diddin) had any sort of bad read on, only 2 (xvart and vezo) were on the quadz wagon yesterday.

If I misread/misunderstood anything from last night, Piorot and diddin, sing out.

[Aranneas]

I am going to re-iso the poirot and oso confrontation in light of this. I suggest others do the same.

[xvart]

Were the neighbors able to talk pre-game?

Sotty? Can you confirm or deny anything in diddin's claim?

Diddin - how come you haven't mentioned sotty all day until now?

xvart.

[Oso]

Yes we were and nothing of substance was said. Mainly jokes and hellos.

[xvart]

I get the impression that it was pretty much agreed upon that someone in the neighborhood was scum. Is that correct?

xvart.

[Oso]

Not in the pre-game talk. The only thing that might be taken as game related pre-game was myself speculating on there being 4 groups of 3 player neighbors. I have never played in a game with this mechanic before.

Friend told me that wasn't how it usually worked.

The only time the word "scum" was used was by friend in relation to playing a board game. He said he'd play but not with scum.

[xvart]

Sorry, I meant this:

The beginning of the night was a few posts about how that trust might be built. Not many ideas other than if one of us is flipped or NKed and that person turns out town, that the other two out their their status and go at each other based on the assumption that there is one scum in the group.

Did it seem like people were in agreement? Or anyone just following along with the suggestion?

xvart.

[Oso]

There was really no general agreement on if that was true but rather an assumption we all made and acknowledged. The basic 'careful what you say, scum may be listening', 'anything said in here might come back and haunt you later in game and used against you', 'don't lie in relation to the neighbor's mechanic as that would give scum an opening to attack you through a "half-truth" argument in your RC'. Almost like 3 strangers meeting for the first time and wanting to be able to trust each other but not quite willing yet to make the leap because there is good reasons not to trust each other.

To clarify for my own part in this.

While I find it likely that there may one scum in among the neighbors, I am by no means convinced it has to be so. Not going to try and read tnm's mind but I can see where adding three townies into a neighbor group can add a new dynamic.

Unconfirmed in a group automatically breeds distrust and the smaller the group, the higher the level of distrust. It adds a background layer of by-play that could be possibly seen in thread but with no context it would likely strike odd bells and probably set off a player's (or two or three player's) scumdar based on something they see happening but no way to account for it.

So no, for my part, I'm not ready to believe that there is definitely scum among the three of us any more than I am ready to believe we are all townies. Going to need some help from the game thread and you folks for us to figure that out.