Newbie 993 - Game Over!

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/confirm

Tomorrow is my friday, so it'll be roughly 18 hours until I can post next. But hey, three day weekend!

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For the love of God, the wall o texts are ridiculous. Let me read up and I'll offer some opinions.

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I would like to hear other peoples experience.. thanks.

This is my 23rd game here on MS. I played several games on another site, and modded a few over there as well. I play exclusively here now though. Never played in RL, though it sounds intriguing.

hohum was good enough to link you to the good IC article, and that should cover everything about what I'm here to do. Provide new players with the benefit of my experience while at the same time playing to win. Part of being a good IC is having good activity, and I've failed at that in the past two days. The game started at an awkward time for me and I haven't been as present as I need to be. My plate is pretty clean for the next few days, so I'll be posting much more frequently.

Ok, posting my game thoughts separately.

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You never have to random vote, in fact that is completely counter-productive.

While there are differing opinions on this I for one am a big fan of RVS. I find it to be a highly effective way of getting a game started. Random is never truly random, and even the RVS can yield valuable information later on in the game. The exception to this is using RNG's (Random Number Generators) to pick for whom to vote, which really just defeats the purpose and is in my view slightly scummy.

Don't mislynch anyone, though.

Yes, let's try not to do that. Bold statement. I know people have already piled on this particular quote and that you've explained it, but it bothers me.

Actually, in many cases you learn more from a town lynch than you do from lynching scum. Obviously lynching scum is our main priority, but it's not always such a horrendous thing to mislynch.

I agree in principle, mislynches aren't the end of the world, and every lynch yields information that benefits town. However I have never seen a case where one learns more from lynching town that from scum. Both have wagons to be dissected, connections to other players to be examined, and the next day will often have a NK to be considered. The only difference, in my opinion, is that town gets closer to its WC (win condition).

Two big thumbs down at all the discussion over when to vote, voting for people based off when they confirmed blah blah blah. People vote for a variety of reasons. Make sure you hammer, or even put somebody at L-1, for good ones. And when you confirm has nothing to do with your alignment.

I'd love for anyone to explain to me how that's relevant. I have never seen such resistance to actually having discussion before this game. Yes, it's day 1, it doesn't have to be wasted. We don't have to have a RVS/RQS. Get this guys...we can jump right into the game! Imagine that. I find it odd how most people hate the RVS/RQS and look for ways around it, so we have game that leaves the RVS at the end of the first page, and people apparently don't want to discuss on day 1.

I don't disagree here. Day 1 is as important as any other day, and should be treated as such. I'm irritated that the RVS was so weak, and it's now dead on page 4. Partly my fault. No RQS, which I might throw out later on actually. I think what Mysterio and Steppenwolf are saying is that having wall o text debates this early in the game can be counter-productive. We don't have the information yet to warrant debates of useful value. Having WOT's this early can intimidate newb townies from participating and posting, but worse can create nice distractions for scum. It's easy to lay low and sail through a day when the thread is inundated with quote wars.

I'm not picking on you or Mysterio, the debate is mildly interesting and may have some value later in the game. But that's my feeling about these first few pages. Too much ado about not very much.

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It's easy to lay low and sail through a day when the thread is inundated with quote wars.

And for the record, I'm rather fond of quote wars and tend to get caught up in them myself. They can just be counter-productive this early in the game.

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@Kirbyoshi

While I appreciate you being upfront on your reads, I would caution you against handing out townie cards this early in the game. As a matter of fact, it can be dangerous in any stage of the game unless you have solid reasoning for your feelings.

That said, and I know that Trach has asked this as well, I would like to know why feel the way you do regarding your town reads. Is it just gut? I can't imagine how it could be otherwise with as little information as there is, but I'm curious.

Vote: Hinduragi
Reasoning coming later.

Looking forward to that as well.

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5 pages, and we're stuck on Mysterio and Leech. Are they the wrong places to look? I dunno. All I do know is that the discussion regarding them is oddly dominating.

The walls of text still need to subside, and the activity level needs to go up. I bet no one even realized I was on V/LA. We need more frequent, shorter posts.

I agree. And I did realize, but that said, you're all I'm really paying close attention to.

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Star

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Why are you paying attention to Kirby? What do you think of Steppen?

Getting to this tonight. I'm only in two games and I'm falling behind in both.

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I apologize for not responding to the question I was asked. My RL is a lot more hectic than I anticipated it being, but things are thinning out. I'll respond to the question I was asked, but moreover I'll do an Iso of everybody. It'll help me get back into the stride of the game as well as offer y'all my opinions. And I'll likely cast a vote.

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Ok, I'm here. Lemme shower and eat and I'll throw up a post or two.

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@Star: Care to offer opinions about this game? Most of your posts have either been promises for later content or focused on issues not directly related to finding scum. We could use some content from you.

And you will have it. More promises, but if I really felt that I couldn't contribute to this game I would replace out. I'm doing that damn iso I promised, and I kinda feel a night phase is in order.

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@Star: It's lather, rinse, repeat; not lather, rinse, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.... Care to contribute?

Yeah, I shit the bed on that one. If I'm not busy it seems I'm lazy. Anyway, I have all day to myself, so no more excuses.

I was originally asked about Steppenwolf, and it appears his replacement is under some scrutiny. So that's where I'll start.

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Follow bandwagons much?

I have said I wanted to iso people, and Steppen/shotty is a player I was asked about specifically. And yeah, him being in the position that he's in (briefly at L-1) makes him the natural choice to look at first.

And for giggles and lack of context.... (This part is a joke)

Lemme shower and eat and I'll throw up...

Don't mock my eating disorder, it's a good way to keep my figure nice and slender.

Steppen

- I was amused by his first post pointing out the mild hypocrisy in Leech's statement that votes shouldn't be made for ridiculous reasons. I agree with his feeling about incognito theory being silly. Most of his interaction in the game was discussing random votes with Leech. Following the deluge of large fluffy posts he agrees with my sentiment that the WoT's were hurting discussion, saying that he felt he was falling behind. That leads to his opinion that D1 discussion can't be as effective as discussion during other days, due to lack of information, an opinion I only half agree with. When asked who he feels is scum, he doesn't offer an opinion. He thought it was unlikely that Leech and Mysterio were distancing, and that he was paying more attention to Leech, whom he gave a mild town read of.

Bottom Line- he commented on a few things, but gave little opinion on specific players. With not much to look at, I'm stuck with a null to town read. Then he's replaced by shotty.

drmyshottyizsic

Comes in with a pretty over the top reaction to the Mysterio wagon and requests people unvote. Shotty later explains that he thought Mysterio was at L-1, not L-2. Convinced that there is scum on the Mysterio wagon he looks at Leech who he feels could swing either way due to experience, and then he reads Illume, and comes up with nothing. He settles on Hinduragi, the reasons being active lurking followed by voting randomly followed by more active lurking. I personally do not feel that activity is any indicator of alignment ( ) but shotty apparently feels strongly about it and places his vote. Leech responds to shotty (and I agree with Leech's stance here) regarding his request that people unvote, and pointing out that shotty never really explained why people unvote despite somewhat acknowledging that Mysterio was scummy. My first reaction to his initial post was that it felt like an attempt by scum to appear townie via slowing down a wagon to appear like a cautious townie. It felt that way because of the tone, and because the lack any real explanation as to why he felt that the Mysterio wagon was a bad one. Anyways, no real need to go over what happens next. A series of bizarre, bewildering, and sometimes hilarious posts follow. His vote goes from Hinduragi to Msyterio, whom he apparently finds scummier as time goes by.

Here's what I think- I agree that Shotty is obviously a VI. Is he a town VI? I'm torn on that, and figuring out VI alignments can be near impossible. I don't think that putting himself at L-1 was an Appeal to Emotion. Not to be mean about it, but I don't think I can give him that much credit. My gut tells me to give him the benefit of the doubt and to consider him a frustrated townie that is... perhaps not getting across what's in his mind and as a result is coming off very badly. What I want to know from him is what he said he'd offer earlier, which is an explanation of exactly why he feels Mysterio is scum.

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@Star why are you still in this game? Out of your 12 posts 9 of them have either been completely fluff of promising to post later. You are not living up to this. Even if you are scum in this game, active lurking, you still are not being a good IC. Normally, I wouldn't bring this up, but it is getting ridiculous. The sad thing is that when you actually do provide content, you jump on shotty instead of commenting on any of the other fallacies that are going on in this thread. You jump on to build a case instead of actually help? I don't like that, at all. I'm trying to be as respectful as I can here, but I think you should request replacement.

I love some good self-righteous indignation. But I agree, I'm not participating at a level that I should be. Nonetheless, I'm here and I'm not going anywhere. I'll provide, but I'll play this game at the pace that I decide and that is within the rules. My activity will snowball as the game continues, especially as this will soon enough be my only game and my activity spikes after D1. I don't really engage in D1 much, rarely have. That would be different if my experience were needed to pick the game up or if players needed the benefit of my experience in order to grasp the game etc. But that's not really the case in this game.

By the way, I didn't "jump" on shotty. I was specifically asked about his slot in the game, and I responded. I did not cast a vote or pile on him. I gave my opinion. Even if I hadn't been asked specifically about my opinion on that slot, I would have offered it, as it seemed his lynch was dangerously close. And, as I pointed out in my previous post, I have chosen to give Shotty the benefit of the doubt. I felt explaining my thought process on him was important. Where exactly do you see me jumping on his case? What other fallacies do you expect me to comment on? That's a vague criticism. Ask me a specific question.

You guys need to take some drastic measures or the scum is going to trump this game. This is just ridiculous.

@This and the rest of this post. Stop preaching, it doesn't come off as necessarily townie, and if anything you're going to turn people off. You speak of drastic measures, but then endorse a policy lynch?

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I definitely endorse a policy lynch of a guy who's meta is to be distracting and a VI in every game. Why don't you condone lynching someone that has proven that they will be of no use to the town, and only hurt it, in every game they play in? Considering this meta matches his town, and his scum play it's not entirely a policy in the first place. It's also taking a shot at actually hitting scum. In, this, specific case I wouldn't care if he is town though. If he is town, the wifom alone will make him a survivor until the end and the question will always be there making us wonder if he's town or scum due to his VI tendencies. I do not condone most Policy lynches, but lynching all distractions is one that I will.

Why you don't, I'm unsure of.

Ahh, if only I could pull a game for you where I pushed (and got) a VI lynch for the very reasons you point out. Game is near done, but still ongoing. The point is I know where you're coming from. Though in that game I made my point more eloquently. And succinctly.

A policy lynch should be a last resort, and that's only for D1. Push too hard, and dangerous claims may come. Premature claims. I'm doing something dumb and handing a townie card to a VI, but my gut usually puts me in poor positions.

You never answered my question, where did you see

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^Fail

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You never answered my question, where did you see

me

jump on shotty instead of commenting on any of the other fallacies that are going on in this thread.

Again, where did I jump on Shotty? What fallacies am I missing/ignoring? Or is my asking you legitimate questions a way of avoiding "contributing"?

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@startransmission, that day lasted a few weeks. How did you manage to never place a single vote?

Well, there was never a good RVS. The Mysterio/Leech debacle was completely uninteresting to me. That's not to say, however, that I deem either as town, or won't refer to their interaction later on. I found the D1 lynchee interesting, but my comments were pretty much on his behalf. I didn't place a vote because I didn't find a worthy place to put it. Partly my fault, I could've pressed harder.

That said, it certainly won't happen a second day. I'm sorry I'm late to the party, but for the three days off I had this game was in Night mode. This is now my only game, and it will remain that way until it is over.

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335, 336, and 339 I'll respond to in the next couple of hours. I just woke up and it's my Saturday. I work 4 12 hour shifts on Thursdays thru Sundays, so posting during that time is usually spotty for me.

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Okay, but what your Day 1 play shows to me is a complete lack of scumhunting. I can sort of understand weak scumhunting on Day 1, but it seemed as if you were simply responding to things and not actually trying to find scum. At some point you need to be voting

someone

if for no other reason than to pressure them for a response. I have never seen a game where completely abstaining from voting helped town. It also goes without saying that lack of scumhunting is a scumtell.

I don't disagree. But with no RVS, and with much of the debate being large walls o text that on initial read held little of interest to me it was hard to conjur a good reason to vote for any particular player.

@Star: Who do you think is scum?

My focus right now is on the Shotty wagon. I don't have a strong scum read on Leech at the moment, and I have a similar feeling about Chimp Pants. While I'm going to look at all players, process of elimination should give you an idea where my focus will be.

Star: post 270 you stated that you don't engage in D1 much. Why?

I used to. It's not so much of a lack of engagement as it is a lassez faire approach. I personally really value a lively RVS, and that is often when I post the most on D1. When I'm an IC I do my best to answer questions etc. for the newbie players that might feel lost. This game neither of those things happened. D1 is often full of town on town crime, debates that yield little to nothing, and most of the time a townie lynch. D2 and on there are flips and wagons to analyze, and that's when I personally start to form theories. When that happens I begin to apply pressure and place votes, and my activity snowballs.

That said, I'm not at all proud that I've recently formed that habit. It's not particularly helpful, it's lazy. I don't make a point of it, but it can happen when a D1 like the one we had crops up.

first way. you really are busy and do not have time. Which I can really appreciate. Working 12 hour shifts is quite taxing on the brain and can be physically and mentally exhausting. Piled up with life as well and the inability to hang out for hours on end infront of a computer and that being a day off to do what you want to do.

second way, you are busy but have enough time to post updates on more content to come. This is a little frusterating. Are you playing on the fact that the majority of everyone else is not participating so you decide to hide and get away with as little content as possible and avoid being prodded or replaced?

First way. There's no advantage for scum or town to not participate. As I've said before, I feel bad enough about how D1 turned out that I am going to make this my only game while it is in progress.

Also I have a question to you Start. Post 101 you stated "People vote for a variety of reasons make sure you hammer or even put someone at L-1 for good ones"

Would you say Mysterio's reasons for hammering were good?

It was a policy lynch, which I don't have an enormous issue with on D1. But were the reasons good? I personally felt that Shotty was a town VI, and that's a ripe target for scum. But I don't see anything specific in the timing or manner of Myst's hammer that makes it any more suspect than any of the other votes on Shotty.

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It was a policy lynch, which I don't have an enormous issue with on D1. But were the reasons good? I personally felt that Shotty was a town VI, and that's a ripe target for scum. But I don't see anything specific in the timing or manner of Myst's hammer that makes it any more suspect than any of the other votes on Shotty.

What? How is a VI a ripe target for scum? Sure it can be an easy lynch, but it's in the best interest of scum to keep VI's around. They interfere with scumhunting and the town making progress.

I take your point, but I've found that scum will usually choose to jump on a VI wagon. It's an easy wagon that won't be scrutinized as much, and it gets them to a night phase where they can kill and discuss. Yes, a smart scum will avoid that lynch, and a really smart scum may go so far as to white knight the VI wagon. My point was that the wagon was formed for the same reasons that Myst hammered, and that was a policy wagon. I find that acceptable on D1- for the reasons you brought up.

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Star you didn't answer chimp pants question directly. you stated who you felt was town, not scum.

I implied where my focus would be. I'm not saying that either Leech or Chimp is town, but I'm looking at the shotty wagon, and of all the players on it I'm less suspicious of those two.

Star you didn't answer my question directly either. ""Do you feel that mysterio's reasons were good?" I didn't ask if it made him more suspicious or not.

I don't see his reasons being very far off of the reasons that others had, including yourself. You seem to distinguish a vote with a hammer, which is only understandable if the reasons for either are different. Which in this case it's not. I'm not liking how you seem to have a problem with Myst's hammer, but aren't explaining why exactly, and are pursuing the opinions of others on why it might be scummy. Please explain exactly why you feel Myst's reasons for voting are different from your own, and why his hammer bothers you.

And no, neither of you voted for reasons that were spectacular. Policy lynches are never ideal, but if they have to happen D1 is the time. I'm sorry if I was unclear on that.

Star Is this feeling you have about Leech and chimp Pants based on gut?

Yes, but I don't have any strong feelings about their alignments. I'm less suspicious of them/more interested in a couple of other players.

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At the last day of my work week, hope to have something up tonight.

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At the last day of my work week, hope to have something up tonight.

And a horrid fucking day it was. Oh well, I have the next three days off. Will be posting starting tomorrow morning, drunk and exhausted at the moment.

One thing in the meantime,

jump on shotty instead of commenting on any of the other fallacies that are going on in this thread.

Again, where did I jump on Shotty? What fallacies am I missing/ignoring? Or is my asking you legitimate questions a way of avoiding "contributing"?[/quote]

This I still want answered. Not a big deal, but I want it answered.