Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[ooba]

Something spooky -- if Tar's worship didn't work, that means someone covered for him, right (since we hit 13 even without him)?

Or else ABR could've done it.

To be entirely fair, ABR worship voted even on previous nights.

1. If scum is striping people of their voting powers, it makes more sense for scum to strip people from JCA, if they don't have any good OS members there. Giving JCA the majority allows them to have a wider variety of skills that can WIFOM night actions.

Worship votes aren't meant to increase scum targets, that makes no logical sense. Since worships grant a wide variety of powers in thread or across the factions, it means that MO's plan about Item swapping is working.

What doesn't add up is Tar is now worship stripped.

You'll have to explain this one again
- What is OS?
- Why does JCA vote stripping make sense? Have you take in account that oversoul works only for JCA players and all JCA items are with other people right now?

Preview: See, the point still holds if he did not confirm in QT before day results that he was surely redirecting SB to inhim. Of course since he says it was not the case and he did confirm during the night, its a moot point.

Preview: Fine. I guess cult just strips people of worship votes then.

[DTMaster]

1. Unless he majority of JCA aren't scum, then disabling them is a good thing. Having potential RBs and full tracks = bad for scum. Even though we are swapping items, we can give them back to use RBs, or full track/watch what ever Parama's item is.
2. You answered what OS is, it's over soul.
3. If S_B flips town, then Faraday would have been super lucky to guess the result at night because there was a long list and I was shooting someone too. But Faraday claimed that Ihim would die via S_B redirect the night before the kill cause he was redirecting. Hence you're arguing Faraday is scum with S_B.

[DTMaster]

He said it to MO, who claimed it for him.

[ooba]

3. If S_B flips town, then Faraday would have been super lucky to guess the result at night because there was a long list and I was shooting someone too.

But Faraday claimed that Ihim would die via S_B redirect the night before the kill cause he was redirecting.

Hence you're arguing Faraday is scum with S_B.

You fail at reading. I've already said if the bolded was true, then the point is moot ... Preview: Although MO says decided, he also says we discussed a list of names and Faraday could have targetted someone else without suspicion so I just want him to confirm it ..

1. Unless he majority of JCA aren't scum, then disabling them is a good thing. Having potential RBs and full tracks = bad for scum. Even though we are swapping items, we can give them back to use RBs, or full track/watch what ever Parama's item is.
2. You answered what OS is, it's over soul.

This argument does not hold water - Even if all the JCA were worship stripped, the rest of the town could still worship JCA to give them those abilities.
Scum would want to go for people's whose abilities depend on worshipping properly - me, Fate and VV. If we are worship stripped we become VTs.

[DTMaster]

1. Can you explain to me why it's Moot again even if Faraday claimed the correct result the night before, especially before a S_B true flip? You just said it was moot.
2. Recall that ABR says there is only 1 cult at D2. Therefore unless they recruited after ABR's census, they should only have one from N2 (your theory), then N4 or D2 (unlikely) and D4.
3. If they can control VV via redirects, then why isn't VV dead? Like you said you become VTs when your focus doesn't connect. Recall that the second redirector isn't playing like a typical scum re-director. He's being super, duper, weird. He chose Kathy over the claimed kills.
4. If they can vote worship strip any of you (See Tar) they chose Tar over you. Based on Tar's claim, it sounds more permanent . Something doesn't compute sir.

[DTMaster]

Actually the 4th question is answered by Cult theory, over Scum Vote stripper PR. But if it is the latter, I don't see it being that because they could just disable VV and kill her targets.

[ooba]

Just noticed a big hole in my earlier cult recruit analysis - a cult recruiter would have to be mad to recruit tar before inhim dying .. Why recruit someone whose most probably dying ..

D1 is either Katy (0) + Xmite81 (0)
D2 can be Katy (0) + Xmite81 (0) + Tarhalindur (2) + Albatross (1)
D3 cannot be anyone
D4 has to be Fate
D5 -???

My call:
D1 - LMP
D2 - Albatross
D3 - ....
D4 - Fate
D5 - Tar

Albatross, Fate - if you also lost your souls - you should claim it now... Its the pro town thing to do ..

Regarding ABR's census - it works with a hypnotist type cult where people retain their original wincon until a certain trigger is fulfilled ..

[DTMaster]

Hmm, actually that is possible. All we do know it is "modified cult".

[DTMaster]

That means the Zombie-cult theory is a red herring, and it's more likely the Judas type role.

[DTMaster]

Mafia, I have a proposition for you to think about. I want you to claim. If this is a hypnotist role I propose an alliance to get rid of the cult leader. It's possible that ABR's census put us in a false dilemma where we assumed they didn't recruit. It's possible that they were able to recruit every night. The town has run out of kills. If we don't hit the leader, the hypnotist can win in a few more days. Assuming that none of the members died as of now, they make up 5/16 of the town faction.

[DTMaster]

And assuming recruits didn't fail

[totallynotmafia]

Maybe Faraday is a mafia usurper and getting the item off of Albatross made his job a million times easier. I still want to know why Albatross gave up his item to begin with, I don't see the pro-town motivation for giving your item away except to confirm your role.

[Nikanor]

Unvote. Vote: Albatross.

[Fate]

What the hell did Albatross claim?

[Faraday]

Maybe Faraday is a mafia usurper and getting the item off of Albatross made his job a million times easier.

I still want to know why Albatross gave up his item to begin with, I don't see the pro-town motivation for giving your item away except to confirm your role.

JESUS CHRIST STOP SPEWING BULLSHIT, TAR'S WIN CON ALREADY HAD HIM LOOKING FOR THE GODFATHER. YOU'RE A STALKER DO YOU'VE ANYTHING ELSE TO ADD THAT'S NOT ABOUT ME> NO? OKAY

[Faraday]

but yeah TNM that's a silly thought.

[Faraday]

What the hell did Albatross claim?

gave me his re-direction item. i don't think he's got anything else.

[ooba]

More thoughts .. I was thinking more about the theory .. I think the key is to understand what Xite's role was ..

wayward = following no clear principle or law : unpredictable

- A role which just keeps shifting alignments
- With a 2 shot death immunity
- He was actually voteless
The initial rolename flip would have been "Benevolent spirit", "Evil Spirit" or "Zombie" depending on which alignment he flipped
My guess is that the final role flip will be "Wayward spirit", Alignment "None" or "Cult" since thats the alignment with which he died

Now my theory that xite was recruited day one doesn't add up again because a cult leader will not recruit someone who is going to be lynched - the "zombie" flip led me to that conclusion but I guess it was just Xite's role

Therefore:
D1: Katy
D2: Albatross
D3: None
D4: Fate
D5: Tar

This accounts for ALL worship misses, each day. I have a pretty good idea who the cult leader is - just need to read back and see if its right ...

Also we are looking at 1 cult leader, 2 mafia, 4 converted (or soul lost) townies, 9 normal townies - not a rosy picture for town...

[Mina]

I can't believe we've wiped out most of the Mafia and scum haven't had a single successful nightkill (unless SB was their real choice), and yet it still feels like we're on the verge of losing. I despise cults (particularly in games with little information). And cults that can recruit every night are broken, because each recruit is the equivalent of two night-kills, so a cult can gain majority much more quickly than the Mafia (even if cultists weren't much harder to catch).

Faraday, Albatross also claimed to have redirected me on Night One to manho.

Faraday would be a bad, bad lynch before SB's flip, because if she's Mafia, Faraday is confirmed town. I'll reread N2 of the White Council to see if he had no other choice than to redirect SB to inHim. (If ooba's claim that raj is also a self-redirector is true, Faraday could have easily justified a redirect that way--hell, had I been in the QT, I'd have probably pushed for a raj vig.)

DTMaster, I agree with your plan. Right now, we have one or two Mafia among sixteen players, but not the slightest idea clue about the cult. We should be trying to hit cult today, not Mafia.

Um, Mafia? Any thoughts?

-----------------------------
Am I the only person who thinks that Xite91 would be a horrible choice for a recruit? (EBWOPreview: apparently ooba does, too.)

I mean, this is a slot that was run up to a lynch on D1. I actually decided against investigating him on N1 because he was such a likely vig kill. Although I thought Xite might've been unkillable, today people seem to believe that he has limited immunities. And Xite was playing a horribly scummy game (e.g., saying stuff like "I don't mind being put in limbo because I'm more interested in finding out the mechanics of the game than catching scum.") I don't think DarkStalker's reveal of his passive ability was a lie, assuming there really is a cult. So the cult wouldn't be targeting Mafia.

Hmm...I suppose someone could've believed Katy's "benevolent spirit" story. But still....Personally, I'd have gone for someone in the middle of the pack (neither a likely lynch nor the most obvious nightkill). VasudeVa, ooba, Katy, Albatross, Iecerint (maybe a little less likely, since he was under suspicion), ABR, or Faraday would have been good choices on N2. Maybe I'd risk Mighty Orbots if I thought he would be doc-protected.

Mighty Orbots, what I'd like to know is who you'd have recruited over the past few nights. Can you honestly say that Xite would have been your top choice on N2?

I strongly believe that LynchMePls was Mafia. Speaking of which, another juicy quote I found:

TNM is neutral,

orto is scum but i remember someone has a town result on him so idk

, chrono is town.

Manho is clearly a master of subtlety. That said, this is a point against Katy being Mafia. Hmm. Does anyone think Snow_Bunny might have been targeted by coincidence (just to eliminate the vig)?

Nikanor, I don't think I'm following something. Someone says that he lost all his powers when LMP was killed. And I'm assuming that someone claims to be town. But why would the death of a cultist (and a lowly recruit, not the leader) affect a protown player? Did this happen EXACTLY at the same time as LMP's death (e.g., when the thread opened)?

[Mina]

EBWOP: I meant re: Xite being unkillable that judging by how many people assumed LMP had limited kill immunities, it's likely a cultist might have come up with the same theory. So he wouldn't want to risk recruiting Xite simply because she

might

be immortal. (If she's really some kind of powerless wincon-less immortal freak, then she'd probably be immune to recruitment.) And Xite already used an immunity.

BTW, am I the only one who is totally confused by this game right now?

[ooba]

Mina, there is nothing confusing about the game. I've made headway on the cult issue .. (I'll get back to Mafia probables later in the night)

These people cannot be the cult leader:

8. ooba

7. Fate
21. Tarhalindur
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu)
20. Katy
- Recruits (Plus Tar started out as the Modified Lyncher)

28. DTMaster
- Modified Lyncher

---

Not as sure, but will still say not cult leader:

5. dramonic
- Setup reasons: Too public an ability

18. Mina, returned to the game Day 3.
- Fact that she role-cop'd LMP and said Zombie - could have lied

---

Candidates:

2. Faraday
9. Mighty Orbots
10. Parama
12. totallynotmafia
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta)
17. Nikanor
25. AdumbroDeus (Replaces CryMeARiver)
26. Iecerint

---

Just re-read, out of all of these, Iecerint is our best choice for cult leader

a) Reaction of cult recruits

Albatross

Albratross reads as new scum since he just went back on his Ice case from yesterday.

wut?

DTM follows up in 1147. His only reply is that it might be confirmation bias on Iece. Keeps him at town\neutral from then on. Never really attacks Iece.

Fate

Unvote:
Vote: Iecrint

Well I'm always down for an Iec lynch.

Hmm, mentions lynching Iecerint and a ""Don't worry you'll be getting a bullet very soon"" but does not vote him from D4 start and after.

Tar

D4 He was ready to lynch Iece at the start of the day- "REALLY would like to see a totallynotmafia or Iecerint lynch right now". D5 - granted only three posts - but no mention of Iece.

Katy

For those who've been in the game since D1, I don't even have to pull up Katy - Iece links. In fact I thought they were masons based on how hard she was defending him.

b) ooba tell

Sure this ain't exactly surefire but Iecerint has mentioned "cult" the most number of times in this game
Plus I called out his behaviour at the start of D1:

I find Iecerint's play different from both the most recent scum and town game I've played with him. Iece, are you a third party role here?

c) Setup spec

- I would expect the cult leader to have some sort of NK immunity or bulletproof
- Tar (before he was recruited) speculated that he expects cult to be mortal. How better to disguise a mortal than as a "Too Human" god with 2 worship votes ..

I think "a" by itself is a good reason to

Unvote. Vote: Iecerint

Thoughts welcome ...

[Albatross]

People seem to be making the assumption that LMP wasn't the cult recuiter. Am I out of the loop or something? Because Zombie totally sounds like a cult leader and his play fits as one.

This is especially jarring as people seem to have dropped all pretense of hunting scum and have focused exclusively on hunting cult. I'm looking at you, Ooba.

[Parama]

Alba, with 16 people alive and 2 mafia left, finding the mafia isn't as big of an issue as finding the cult leader.
Also cults are the worst thing to ever happen to mafia. Bleh.

[Mina]

ooba, do you have town and scum meta?

At first, I thought you were desperately trying to protect Katy (maybe because she was the last surviving member of your faction). But your motivations today don't make a lot of sense for scum. First you push dramonic, then you swing toward me, then toward Faraday...you just cycle from one theory to the next. Instead of considering multiple possibilities, you act with certainty that an elaborate theory is true based on circumstantial evidence, draw it to its conclusion...and then abandon it almost immediately and jump to the next theory when you find something else.

Speaking of which, you never answered my question as to why you preferred a dramonic lynch to a LMP or Katy one.

Going through the player list and working out who can or can't be the cult leader is a great idea that I might just steal.

I think the contradictions you pointed out re: Iecerint could work. And Iecerint's contributions have been really banal today, so I could see him as a cult recruit active lurking. But I see one big hole in your Iecerint theory. Most of the instances of Katy defending Iecerint happened on D1, before she could have been recruited.

And this game is confusing because it's hard to find a cultist when there hasn't been a single cult flip and anyone could have been recruited last night. So if we're looking for cult instead of Mafia, it's pretty much Day One all over again. Personally, I'm insecure about lynching players who haven't done anything overtly scummy just because they have a 3 in 16 (I'm assuming two recruits, one on N2 and one on N4) chance of being cult.

Oh, and to answer this:

1. If it were Mafia who were stripping worship votes why wouldn't they take out me or Fate (if he ain't mafia). After all more worship votes and increases their options on whom to kill?

I can see a reason: to prevent players from using focus abilities on Tarhalindur. So VV can't protect him (although there's still a doc item out there anyway).

Alba, with 16 people alive and 2 mafia left, finding the mafia isn't as big of an issue as finding the cult leader.
Also cults are the worst thing to ever happen to mafia. Bleh.

Seconding both of these points. Especially the secondx1000.

[Iecerint]

Ooba, my D1 behavior is pretty normative for my D1 behavior in large games. Refer to Stars Aligned 2, where I was nearly lynched D1 of it, for a comparison. That's the only large game Katy has played with me, so that's probably where her D1 vibes were coming from. (I already told you as much in our short-lived QT earlier.) Trying to compare my game here to your only other experience with me (a mini where I was a totally imbalanced PR AND a mason) is not valid.

While I can't deny that lots of people have kinda flip-flopped about me a lot over the past several days (my own interpretation is that players want to lynch me, it doesn't take, and they give up), at least some aspects of your evidence are impossible (unless I'm am absurdly OP cult leader but). For example, I'd have to have recruited Katy D1 and then ABR very early D2 (which would in turn make your Albarecruit D2 interpretation no good). Otherwise, ABR would have lied about the cult in a way that wouldn't make sense for non-cult (i.e. he would've framed them as an opponent of relatively low importance as mafia, which would make no sense). And Fate's whined about me today.

I agree that Tar's silence is odd; my best guess is that some kind of investigation may've taken place amongst the cabal people or whatever.

Edit: Yeah, it's totally accurate that I'm kinda lurk-y today. The game's so complex that anything I can contribute is either outdated or wrong based on old information. It's very demoralizing. I also feel like I don't have much gravitas based on said outdated/half-baked information and my lack of integration into the major communication networks that I assume are driving a lot of this information everyone seems to keep track of so well.