Mini 983: It Got Worse (GAME OVER)

[Amished]

It was a chance. What information do I get if RC does the kill as scum and SPS didn't do anything? How about if RC does have a killing ability; then I can save someone I likely view to be a townie all while condemning the shit out of RC? This seemed to be the best way to answer some question marks in a couple player slots that really didn't seem to have any clear answers that they could provide.

Ahh, I got all the mudslinging you were doing towards me confused with me actually being scum. So if you think I'm faking my claim (and spyrex is as well); then how does Ythan being scum fit into all this? Unless you're seriously trying to push a 8-3-1 setup (which you really can't be since you've just said that there's a possibility of 2 scumteams (which means we essentially started with 3).

I don't really have to paint anything you do as scummy; you do that just fine on your own.

[ooba]

Still here ...
Have about twenty pages to go (couldn't get much reading in over last few days due to other games)

[SaintKerrigan]

It was a chance. What information do I get if RC does the kill as scum and SPS didn't do anything? How about if RC does have a killing ability; then I can save someone I likely view to be a townie all while condemning the shit out of RC? This seemed to be the best way to answer some question marks in a couple player slots that really didn't seem to have any clear answers that they could provide.

What information do you get if SPS did the kill as scum and RC didn't do anything? I'm not sure if I grok this next part correctly, but if you mean you were saving RC's kill target from death, having RC target himself would still accomplish that objective. If you meant something else, then I ask that you clarify, please.

Ahh, I got all the mudslinging you were doing towards me confused with me actually being scum. So if you think I'm faking my claim (and spyrex is as well); then how does Ythan being scum fit into all this? Unless you're seriously trying to push a 8-3-1 setup (which you really can't be since you've just said that there's a possibility of 2 scumteams (which means we essentially started with 3).

I do think you're probably scum. You just have a lower probability than Spyrex and Ythan. And I've already said earlier that in a two-scumteam scenario, Ythan-Amished and Spyrex-Llama/RC would be my picks. Two-scumteam is the theory I'm currently working with.

[Amished]

But then RC being redirect to SPS eliminates another question mark while also condemning RC to death via lynch after everyone claimed.

I really want to know how you can suspect Llama at all though; please, enlighten me since he's your top partner for the person that you're voting.

[Amished]

If SPS was the killer then; I would know (via my present) that RC is cleared. Unfortunately, I can't know that but it's worth a shot. I do know that RC was not the killer; and I doubt a 8-3-1 setup so it's highly unlikely from my perspective that he's scum.

[Ythan]

Oh no does SK's brilliant case not make sense in context either?

[sykedoc]

It will be a bit. My computer's PSU fried.

[SpyreX]

SK says I'm scum with RC (or lllama)
RC says I'm scum with SK

They both vote me.

COME ON

[RedCoyote]

This is the vote for SK. This is the "calling out".

Oh, please. Can we drop the, "I am shocked and speechless, sir!" act? I don't know what you're getting at with the rest of your post. I never claimed being a big contributor; I said that I'll put myself up against you this game any day of the week. There's a big difference between those.

I can, however, address this, because post 334, post 386, and we even had a little spat with post 458 where I told you, clear as day, that I was not impressed with SK.

I've never been wishy-washy here; I've had a clear, consistent message. You had no issue with me trying to get an SK lynch on the first two days because you just jumped aboard whatever was the popular lynch, but now that I'm coming after you instead it has become some big controversy. Well, hate to break it to you, but it isn't a controversy.

SK says I'm scum with RC (or lllama)
RC says I'm scum with SK

They both vote me.

COME ON

Deal with it.

[SpyreX]

Oh, please. Can we drop the, "I am shocked and speechless, sir!" act? I don't know what you're getting at with the rest of your post. I never claimed being a big contributor; I said that I'll put myself up against you this game any day of the week. There's a big difference between those.

I can, however, address this, because post 334, post 386, and we even had a little spat with post 458 where I told you, clear as day, that I was not impressed with SK.

I've never been wishy-washy here; I've had a clear, consistent message. You had no issue with me trying to get an SK lynch on the first two days because you just jumped aboard whatever was the popular lynch, but now that I'm coming after you instead it has become some big controversy. Well, hate to break it to you, but it isn't a controversy.

I'm not shocked and or speechless, far from it.

I'm calling out that this doesn't even pretend to make sense.

Lets look at the posts you've come up with that are clear as day:

334:

Alright, well, you say that you put all this thought into voting me, but I don't think that's true. It seemed like you were more in the business of marketing my wagon than you were "thinking" about it. All I saw, essentially, was that you didn't like SP's reasons and you didn't like that I liked them even more.

A ball of qualified language that later that post leads to an Amished vote.

386:

Because I agreed with it and there was really no sense repeating it over again. Nikanor was straight up contradicting himself to please someone (I think it was SPS? I'd have to go back and check), but it turned out that both SP and I read Nikanor's comment out of context a little bit. It happens. Otherwise I didn't really see anything I wanted to comment on, which is a testament to the player list that the Mod managed to put together. I still don't really see too many sketchy things out there with the exception of Amish's erratic behavior and possibly your using unreasonable arguments to justify your positions.

I do, however, take solace in the fact that your needlessly (and possibly perniciously) inflated "activity requirements" of me are largely and rightfully being looked upon with skepticism and indifference by the majority of people here.

You call amish erratic but "possibly" SK is using unreasonable arguments. So yes another slam dunker.

And 458:

Goodness gracious, are you really going to come after me for using the word "seems"?

I'm not going to sit here and say that I know SK, as town, would never jump on and off magnus. I'm saying that it seems to me like townSK wouldn't do that. To the best of my knowledge, that's not how I figure a townie would've approached the situation. I've asked Nikanor to explain why he wants you lynched. He hasn't answered me, but he's continued to make posts restating his intentions. It puts me off a bit, but not enough to make a move on.

I'm realistic, you know, and I don't expect you, even if you're town, to read my posts word for word, but I'd figured you'd at least know the jist of what direction I'm moving in. I have not had flattering things to say about SK for essentially the entire game, and while I've not really come down hard against Nikanor, I've certainly not been overly impressed with his play thus far either.

Yea this reads like SK is scum. Totally.

-----

And lets parallel a couple RC quotes:

Nikanor has steadily been rising up as scummy for me, and SK and Amish haven't really moved. What am I "not committing" to?

Long story short, Spyrex and UK are my picks, although I could still see myself on the SK wagon.

This FoS nonsense is a waste of time. I said it yesterday, I'll say it today, and I'll probably have to say it tomorrow. Y'all have been trying to make something of it since page, like, 10, and nothing came of it. It's a wild goose chase to make people look as though they're contributing, and don't think that I've forgotten that you've been the biggest proponent of wasting the town's time with it, SK.

But Spyrex is still my favorite lynch as the most useless in a stack of useless players (myself included). Nikanor I'm not so fond of for our lynch. I don't see how he has been lurking, as UK claims he has.

Actually, let me go ahead and unvote. I'll vote: SaintKerrigan because this "weakened" thing might mean it takes less people to lynch him. If the deadline is ~30 hours away then we need all the help we can get.

Amish was the first to mention a gift, which, I think, is a good sign. Ythan was second, and then Spyrex tried to jump aboard (you have to think it starts to lose anything at this point as the scum could've gotten wind of what was going on). Going off the idea that gifts are only for town, which, granted, could be a complete red herring, gives Amish and Ythan a bit more town creditability. This coupled with a little wagon analysis from yesterday's lynch leads me to believe that Spyrex still has to be scum. Since apparently we can only vote once, I'll probably hold back a few days, but I feel very comfortable about that read.

The funniest thing about that whole mess?

When you compare what you say about Amished early or me for the rest of it to SK if you were to actually LOOK AT THOSE WORDS and ask who, really, does he think is scum you'd never, ever, ever come up with SK. Never ever.

The words don't add up.
The votes don't add up.

And "deal with it" when your number 1 scum pick hops on a wagon with you?

Yeaaaa.

[SaintKerrigan]

GAH!!! CAN'T I HAVE AT LEAST ONE DECENT TOWN READ IN THIS GAME???

Will address stuff when I have more time.

[Ythan]

Thanks for the (D3) in the title!

SK you can't have a decent town read because you're not good.

[RedCoyote]

A ball of qualified language that later that post leads to an Amished vote.

[...]

You call amish erratic but "possibly" SK is using unreasonable arguments. So yes another slam dunker.

[...]

Yea this reads like SK is scum. Totally.

Right, "qualified language", how about, not charging in and screaming that I know exactly what alignment everyone has? You know, why don't you put your money where your mouth is, Spyrex? Am I 100% certainly scum? Beyond a shadow of a doubt? Is Llama 100% certainly town? Beyond a shadow of a doubt? Only yes or no answers, please. God forbid you show any relativity or humility, because Spyrex will get right on top of you for that.

What's worse is that you cherry pick a few sentences from these posts thinking you've got the post all summed up, but, you know, I posted the links for a reason. I had more to say than just, "Hm, SK is scum". I give reasons for why it is I am coming to this conclusion. I engage SK (and not just SK but other people too of course) and the compilation of these exchanges lead to my perception of him. These posts, I contend, are why it is I have had more to contribute to this town than you have. I'm not quite on that Spyrex/SK-pro level of mafia playing where I am able to say that I'm certain that Ythan, SK, or anyone else, is scum/town.

So you can sit here and criticize me for not voting SK, beating around the bush, or whatever, but in reality we both know that none of my proposals have gained any traction. I haven't been on either of the lynch wagons for a reason, because not only am I unable to persuade the town with my suppositions, but I haven't even been all that warm toward the ultimate lynch choices.

And "deal with it" when your number 1 scum pick hops on a wagon with you?

That's a joke based off some meme. Seriously though, what difference does it make? It doesn't mean that I wouldn't vote him if the opportunity arises. And SK just as easily sees me as potential scum, as well he should.

Unless you care to say, here and now, that you don't suspect SK at all. Is that your intention?

[SpyreX]

Right, "qualified language", how about, not charging in and screaming that I know exactly what alignment everyone has? You know, why don't you put your money where your mouth is, Spyrex? Am I 100% certainly scum? Beyond a shadow of a doubt? Is Llama 100% certainly town? Beyond a shadow of a doubt? Only yes or no answers, please. God forbid you show any relativity or humility, because Spyrex will get right on top of you for that.

What's worse is that you cherry pick a few sentences from these posts thinking you've got the post all summed up, but, you know, I posted the links for a reason. I had more to say than just, "Hm, SK is scum". I give reasons for why it is I am coming to this conclusion. I engage SK (and not just SK but other people too of course) and the compilation of these exchanges lead to my perception of him. These posts, I contend, are why it is I have had more to contribute to this town than you have. I'm not quite on that Spyrex/SK-pro level of mafia playing where I am able to say that I'm certain that Ythan, SK, or anyone else, is scum/town.

So you can sit here and criticize me for not voting SK, beating around the bush, or whatever, but in reality we both know that none of my proposals have gained any traction. I haven't been on either of the lynch wagons for a reason, because not only am I unable to persuade the town with my suppositions, but I haven't even been all that warm toward the ultimate lynch choices.

Yes. Qualifying your language is directly opposed to 100% perfect and absolute reads and that is exactly what I was implying.

Or not. Not even a little.

The little snipe about relativity and humility is also awesome and has a whole lot to do with what I'm actually saying:

Your interactions with SK if you

actually believed

he was scum do not make sense. Even now you still espouse to him being your #1 scum read and you've voted for him once and that wasn't even because you thought he was scum. It was because he was an easier lynch at the time.

Contrast that to your approach to me or even Amished. Look at the methods and the choices

and the accompanying votes

. SK is the bridesmaid but never the bride and that is garbage.

And your reasoning? Because its never gained traction? Well, when you yourself wont even place a vote the idea of it somehow mystically gaining traction is just laudable.

The snipes in this deserve the quote more than anything else, though. Apparently I'm big bad abusive SpyreX smashing into the morally strong and perfect RedCoyote because I'm soo pro and believe only in absolutes as is thus defined by my ability to vote the person who I say is scum.

That's a joke based off some meme. Seriously though, what difference does it make? It doesn't mean that I wouldn't vote him if the opportunity arises. And SK just as easily sees me as potential scum, as well he should.

Unless you care to say, here and now, that you don't suspect SK at all. Is that your intention?

What opportunity? What does that even mean? Every damn post is an opportunity. Ythan and SK's giant slapfights were a grand opportunity.

As for seeing everyone as potential scum? Sure. Until you look deeper at the interactions. How's this:

If you flip scum which at this point I'm pretty sure you will, SK is probably by a wide margin town. There's no way two of you would slapfight like this to vote together.

[SaintKerrigan]

But then RC being redirect to SPS eliminates another question mark while also condemning RC to death via lynch after everyone claimed.

Only if RC is mafia and performs a kill. Ultimately, though, the issue I have with this claim is that out of all the people who are still alive, RC and SPS are the two best people for a fake redirection claim because of their lack of active, visible abilities. If neither RC or SPS use a kill, then potentially redirecting RC's randomness to SPS, who can't use his ability(s) yet, won't have a visible effect on SPS. Thus, the chance that your claim is disproved by someone else is very, very small. That's convenient for scum.

That's why I have problems with this claim. It's too convenient for scum purposes.

You keep mentioning a connection between your present and your stance on RC. Is this something you'd like to elaborate on?

I really want to know how you can suspect Llama at all though; please, enlighten me since he's your top partner for the person that you're voting.

Much of my Llama suspicion is directly attributable to Spyrex's buddying with him. Plus the fact that Spyrex elected Llama when he could've easily elected Ythan. It doesn't make sense if Ythan and Spyrex are on the same scumteam.

Hey Spyrex, why aren't you voting for RC?

[SpyreX]

Good lord I'm not?

Unvote, Vote: RC

I thought I did that waaay long ago

[Ythan]

Do both of you think the other is scum

with

SK?

[LlamaFluff]

Vote RedCoyote

I would vote spy at deadline as I think they are both probably scum, but this is more likely to net scum and give more information.

Dammit, Llama. I actually have to go back and work on this now.

SPS voted SK, not Ray. SP was saying that Nikanor's support of SPS' SK vote was suspicious, but Nikanor argues that he was referring to something completely different. Now that I've read Nikanor's post again in a new context, I see what he was getting at.

Early on this is about the whole confusion over a few players. RC notes that there is something going on, says that he will reevaluate the situation, and he never did. Instead he moved on to a wierd thing about SPS.

Vote: Steam-Powered Shovel

for being unsure what he's trying to accomplish by with his "day protect" remark. I think Llama is doing a good enough job for himself, and I don't know why SPS felt the need to jump in and attach himself to him like that.

This rubs me wrong not only because it is harping on a weak point, but also because he is ignoring the aformentioned thing that he removed his inital vote for, without ever coming to any conclusion. The SPS day protect is eventually summarized as "out of the blue".

Next move for him is

Why aren't you scumhunting? Why are you going for "easy targets". That really aren't. You're not looking for actually scummy, you're looking for textbook scummy to see what shit you can get past us. Add that to knowing too much, and for the time being I'm pretty sure you're scum.

You know, I was trying to find a way to vote you, UK, but I think this is a pretty good observation. I'm changing my mind about you. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out an angle to really back up any wagon on SPS, but there's really nothing there to vote on.

But what seals the deal is your post 198.

Unvote; vote: Amished

<snip>

Here comes the AtE!

He agrees with UK that he is not really doing much but attempting to provide textbook tells which he seems to not like given his response, then he goes on to apply another "textbook tell" of AtE on Amish.

So at this point he has never made a concrete idea on the early point of SP-Nik, called SPS scum for faking a day kill then recended it, and now is voting for AtE. RC is not scumhunting here, he is just lobbing small tells up and moving on when someone shoots them down.

If we know Amish visited someone last night, according to SC, then why shouldn't we take a chance on him? Going with the odds that not everyone here has a night action each night, and with the odds that the scumteam probably have more night actions than just a kill, I'd say we have a fair shot with our friend Amish here. I think he's been pretty reluctant to tell us exactly what went on. I can sort of understand this, but when you've been outted as a power role, then you may as well give us the goods. Amish might be hesitant because he's kind of feeling out the town's reactions rather than trying to be forthcoming.

Starting the next day, we see RC starting to advocate a lynch of Amish because he used a night action, and did not want to claim what he did the previous night, which apparently made him scum. I see no way someone having a night action makes them scum, possibly this is more exaggerated from my standpoint of knowing at this point that everyone had a role, but it looks like a huge streach to either get a claim out of Amish, and/or get a lynch of a PR.

This gets dropped because

A Bus Driver/Redirector sounds like a role the Mod would use for a game like this, but then again, you could've been covering your ass in case SC snuck up on you with a "I saw you visit magnus".

I am not sure why that makes him town, I have used a scum driver in a game of mine before so know it is not out of the question. The oddest thing here is what RC adds on to this, which is that he "feels better" about Amish. If he felt better about him then in D1, the push on him for having a night action makes no sense, unless a driver claim made him obv-town or something to that extent.

All for now. Will try and finish this tonight.

[RedCoyote]

Your interactions with SK if you

actually believed

he was scum do not make sense. Even now you still espouse to him being your #1 scum read and you've voted for him once and that wasn't even because you thought he was scum. It was because he was an easier lynch at the time.

Hm, #1 scum read, huh? Care to pull that quote up for us, or was that just a little padding to make your thin stream of arguments more palatable? To save everyone the trouble, the quote doesn't exist, primarily because I made it a point not to label him in that way. No, that spot was reserved for Amish until he claimed, and it has pretty much been you since then. SK has undeniably been on my mind throughout most of this game though, which is why I constantly bring him up. I voted him when I thought was most practical, sure, but it wasn't strictly because he may have been an easier lynch. I had a scumread on him then as well, but as I said in the post, if I recall correctly, I would've preferred to lynch you then too.

And your reasoning? Because its never gained traction? Well, when you yourself wont even place a vote the idea of it somehow mystically gaining traction is just laudable.

The point being that I've talked up SK just as much as I had you or Amish during their respective time periods, but time and again the town has neglected to take my advice. That's fine, you know, I'm not making the point to whine or anything. I'm just making it clear that your angle of "need to vote SK" doesn't float when my votes on Amish or you have made little difference. Moreover, as I've said before, I'd still be more than happy to have an SK lynch. Llama was the one who said he wasn't interested in that, that he struggles to see a way for SK to be scum. If my biggest townread says no dice, then what's the point of voting SK now?

Every damn post is an opportunity.

Yeah, and I've been using these opportunities to vote for Spyrex, Amish, Nikanor, SK, etc. What's the problem?

---

RC notes that there is something going on, says that he will reevaluate the situation, and he never did.

Yeah, I retracted my vote. If that isn't reevaluating your position, I don't know what is. I made a post later explaining this move to SK.

He agrees with UK that he is not really doing much but attempting to provide textbook tells which he seems to not like given his response, then he goes on to apply another "textbook tell" of AtE on Amish.

How is post 198 an AtE argument? Granted, I spoke about Amish's emotional appeals, but I clearly said that what sealed the deal was Amish's contradiction that UK pointed out. It made it seem as though Amish was trying to save face when he flatly did a 180 on his meta argument.

As a matter of fact, I was more interested in dismissing Amish's responses as emotionally-driven than I was condemning him for them. The crux of the argument was that Amish was trying to be two different people.

I see no way someone having a night action makes them scum, possibly this is more exaggerated from my standpoint of knowing at this point that everyone had a role, but it looks like a huge streach to either get a claim out of Amish, and/or get a lynch of a PR.

SC implied that Amish shot magnus, so let's keep this in context, Llama. It wasn't just "someone had a night action", it was someone who visited a player who died that night. That's a big difference.

I am not sure why that makes him town, I have used a scum driver in a game of mine before so know it is not out of the question. The oddest thing here is what RC adds on to this, which is that he "feels better" about Amish.

Again, let's keep this in context. Amish could've just as easily claimed to be a Vig, but a Bus Driver/Redirector is a more difficult role to pull off, especially with a Tracker messing about. As to whether he could be a scum-aligned Bus Driver, it's possible, but, again, the Tracker is what throws this off. A scum Bus Driver likely isn't going to want to reveal himself to be a Bus Driver so readily given how easy it is to get caught screwing with the town's night actions.

[Ythan]

Spyre and RC. With whom do you think your suspects are scum?

[ooba]

Will catch up tonight

[SpyreX]

This game is making my teeth itch.

No, you haven't said SK is your #1 scum pick and, frankly, I'm not spending the time to go through you iso and look and the frequency of times SK is mentioned and the amount of effort put forth that way NOR the fact that I've made that statement very clear earlier and just now you're deflecting to it.

Instead, dear game:

Look at RC's iso. Tell ME if I'm losing my mind in thinking SK is the overall course of the game scum pick and then look at whats going on now.

Then vote RC and lynch scum its awesome.

Seriously he's now blaming Llama for not voting SK. Wooooosh

[Amished]

I'm sorry, did somebody not post a large wall to read? No? Ok, I'll be back later.

Also, ooba lurking is making me sad panda. Why can't you ever get caught up?

[RedCoyote]

Well, Amish, you ought to be keeping up because Llama and Spyrex are discounting and riding roughshod over you. I think you ought to have a bigger voice in this given what knowledge you have from your supposed gift. Ooba too, I think, needs to take the game a little more seriously or replace out. I realize he replaced in but I've seen him post in other games. Ooba, if you don't make the time the read the backthread then at least get up to speed with the current discussion and, hopefully, vote Spyrex.

Mod

, have you gotten a chance to fix your computer yet?

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Spyrex: What's the difference between RedCoyote and Ythan? Your charge about RC's treatment of me and my charge about Ythan's treatment of me seem similar.

In the absence of a Ythan lynch, I'd rather push Spyrex over RC. Spyrex has not been selling me on his RC push.