New York 116 - Prozacs Large Normal - Who won?

[Charlie]

Let's get this analysis on the road. So if you'll are paying attention, the company's prozac is at stake. This is important as antidepressants play an important part in the pharmacological management of major depressive disorder, a common psychiatric condition. This is good motivation to play a good game! Who I sorta know is AGar and Anon. I've read some games containing Zorblag, Benmage, tubby316 and Toon Fighter.

On page 1, it appears Troll is self-appointed pseudo-IC in this game. Great first impression. Page 2 is a slew of random votes.
Page 3 marks the transition out of the RVS with AGar's #74. I feel anything said before that is a null tell.

I agree that pushing policy lynches is a scumtell, but I was not even attempting to push it at all.

I disagree, pushing policy lynches is a null-tell on D1 and slightly scummy after D1.

Note that I was not attempting to prolong the RVS myself, rather I was going with the flow. I also deflected the first attempt by fugitive in order to see if he was simply scum trying to set himself up to look townie or a townie themselves. If he was the former, he would've made the one not-so-forceful attempt and continued with the RVS if it failed. However, he kept at it, kept applying pressure. +Town points for seriously trying to end the RVS. Toogeloo seems leaning +town as well, as he was fairly forceful in his attempt to end the RVS.

Are you serious. You ended the RVS with #74. You did not "go with the flow".
Why is someone town for trying to end RVS?

unvote, vote diginova, he doth protest too much.

That's bullcrap right there.

I agree with Charlie, I'm gonna go with a null tell on this one.

Wow, I totally missed this statement expressing agreement. I didn't really explain my null tell at that time. I did now.

My experience with Mr.Sandman is pretty limited but reading through the thread just now it was concerning that he had picked up his prod and not responded.

I think he's a bit likely to hang back as scum...<snip>...I'd like a bit more from Charlie and Wraith than we're getting from their posts thus far but it's still early so I'll see what develops on that front.

Why?

And thank you!

At page 4, mothrax votes > diginova votes.

Now this is a super small thing, but why use "in fact" at the start, and then "truthfully" at the end? That seems like a nervous scum member to me, maybe even a scum PR that is nervous that, if he gets lynched, he'll lose his abilities and severely hinder his team.

Weak case.

I've seen this sort of defensive deflections as well, with him bringing up all sorts of people, millar, agar, mothrax, to try to get people to turn their attention to everyone else. When I put my vote on him, he attacked me, doing whatever he could to deflect attention away from himself.

Now can you tell us whether you think this is townish or scummy type of defense?

At page 5, Mr. Sandman is pro-town. The suspicion on mothrax is infinitely more important than the fact he is mafia or not.

The only discussion that was promoted was focused on yourself and why a pro-town player would do that. You're lucky Digi is looking scummier right now.

Are you saying that you find Fugitive suspicious? If yes how much so?

ok im reareading now

Oho. Looks like you weren't paying attention to the game either. Like me. You've disappeared, got prodded and returned with a "seemingly convincing" case on me. This is a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. Make better cases please.

Toon Fighter #131 displays some flawed logic/inadequate explanation. The statements and votes do not co-relate. The explanation is confusing; please reword.

Aout mothrax: I dislike him not putting his vote where his mouth is. His RVS stances are weird. "Woohoo a wagon is on me" feels fabricated and not natural from a townie entity.

Once again, the all important question: Is this scummy? Also, that entire post bleeds a neutral stance. Are you saying that one of mothrax and diginova is likely to be mafia?

CCARaven4 = voted because someone told him to, using huge crap-logic in his voting pattern.

Bit harsh, but yeah kinda agree thus far.

At page 6, diginova claimed town jailkeeper. Yes, believable. Anyone still pushing for his lynch deserves a big fat FoS (nobody has done this, eh?)

I've already addressed Lowell's #152.

At the time I thought AGar was scummy because of all of his votehopping... I hadn't had a chance to reread the whole thing and had just skimmed most of the wall o texts... After I re-read the thread I changed my mind. I didn't really see AGar as scummy, just as an agressive player. I did however see digi as scum for the reasons I have already listed.

I like that; and I agree. Aggression is not anti-town and could be a useful tool when used correctly. AGar seems to be doing all the pro-town things.

Wraith's #156is horrible.

Hmm, a claim already. It's suboptimal. We need to establish from here on out that it's not time to claim until someone's actually ready to hammer. That means that everyone else needs to agree not to hammer before claims. If anyone is going to have trouble with that speak up now.

It isn't optimal here...the game is large; voices conflict too often. Also, this game actually started as a Large Newbie, and got converted into a Large Normal. I would agree with you if we were sill in the former but things change a bit now.

@Toogeloo and mothrax, I take it that diginova's claim doesn't change your feelings about him significantly. You're both leaving your votes on him without mentioning it.

Needs to be answered...

@Zorblag No, his claim doesn't... even if the roleclaim is true, like you said, the allignment could go either way. I don't necessarily believe him when he says that he is town alligned...

I don't buy it.

Just a question: Wouldn't a scum jailkeeper be a bit of a bastard role?

This is true, me thinks. AGar's vote on Wraith is good too.

Look people. This is originally a Large Newbie setup, albeit experimental. It failed and got converted into a Large Normal setup. Thinking of things like a Mafia Jailkeeper is ludicrous (apologies to Zorblag, who first suggested it). Diginova is town, of this I'm sure and am willing to bet my virtual life in this thread on it.

@Charlie, would you say your play here is different from your play in Left 4 Dead? I suppose I'll let you come up with your content past that as you've just said that it would be coming.

More laid back, this just changed as of this post.

I'm done here. I confess that I'm a bit lazy but I try my best to deliver stuff at the end of the day. Anon, I realize your case on me is poor because Wraith is far worse (or equally) lackadaisical here. You points were "seemingly reasonable" and I have justified that.

Vote: Wraith

FoS: mothrax

FoS: CCARaven4

FoS: Zorblag

[AGar]

Ooh, I think you might just be mafia for that last comment + vote, CCARaven4.

You may not like my play, that is fine...but I'm anything but anti-town at D1 page 8. This is a large game. Some people say things, others choose to observe. Granted, the observers are more likely mafia but so much more unlikely at D1 where the sample size is large. I have some free time, I'll get cracking at these 8 pages. I'll be a little bit psychic and say it'll be a null read on most people!

-Charlie

Your fencesitting is worthless. At BEST you're being anti-town with your pre-conceived notion that everything will be null. At worst, you're scum sitting around and trying to stall until nothing happens.

[Charlie]

Spare me the lecture. It is D1 and things will change later. Who else do you suspect?

[Stef]

Lol @ the claim. A little premature imo but nothing we can do about it now. Still hasn't changed my opinion about him just being bad town.

at the moment I don't want to commit to any bandwagon, mostly because 6 pages is not enough discussion for a first day in any game

Horrible logic. Scummy.

Because he's fence-sitting and stalling L-1... Keeping a close eye on him.

Stalling L-1? Seriously? You really think Digi should have been lynched at that stage of the game? Also, why are you mostly ignoring the claim?

Just note for myself: I don't like how many people didn't have any problems with the easy claim. Note to others: DO NOT CLAIM until you are ASKED TO (by more people, not just one). DO NOT hammer without A CLAIM.

It would be a really stupid thing to close the day right now, so for trying for an early bandwagon and lynch

First part is true, second is false, third is true. Bandwagoning this early is awesome. Lynching so early.. not so much.

@Zorblag No, his claim doesn't... even if the roleclaim is true, like you said, the allignment could go either way. I don't necessarily believe him when he says that he is town alligned...

Townie brownie.

Waiting and letting discussion develop is great. But saying "We need at least X pages before we lynch someone," sounds like scum just trying to buy time

Not quite. I'd say it looks more like fail logic. Scum doesn't like buying time D1 if they are not a major wagon (which he wasn't). It does look like you making bullshit points though. And you did say that he is scummy for trying to prevent a L-1 (thus suggesting that it should have happened) so unless you are suggesting a scum-team including both Wraith and Digi your theory is crap. You should know better and that makes me think that you do know better.

Oh, and considering plenty of players didn't contribute anything up to this point (or very little) makes a good point about us not being at a stage to lynch anyone.

Liking Anon for putting pressure on charlie. Townie Brownie

Compiling ISOs alphabetically ATM. AGar has a pro-town read from me for now.

Wait.. what? Do your arguments against him just vanish? Also, why not unvote in that post if you think he is pro-town?

Charlie is now looking seriously scummy to me right now. I'm waiting for more content too but I'm at least trying to contribute. You're avoiding questions and making excuses.

FoS: Charlie

So... you think AGar is pro-town, you think charlie is scummy, you vote for AGar and FOS Charlie? lol.

Oh my goodness. I do not like so much attention directed at me. It is probably a bad idea... Okay, I'll bone up on suspects and cases, I promise. Sometime this week, okay? You have my word, thread!

O_o

Benmage is striking me as... weird. Will have to look up some meta to see if this is his usual playstile.

The rest of the page is
Policy lynch discussion
Policy lynch discussion
Policy lynch discussion
---------------------------
@Benmage: We will discuss policy lynching if we don't find someone scummier to hang. I am against policy lynches and I don't like people who suggest them. It distracts the town, it cools down wagons and it's overall horribly bad for the town to enforce/discuss them. Same goes for Toogeloo.

Hmm...

Atm really not liking charlie, raven, agar. Oh, and tubby needs to post more:

Unvote, Vote Tubby

[Toon Fighter]

@Charlie: which one of my games did you read?

I wanted to check the most suspicious players of the game, since I didn't had much time. I didn't like the way mothrax responded to the bandwagon on him, and that was why I voted him. diginova was constantly pressured because of his first random vote, and kept repeating the same argument. Raven was asking him about something he had explained earlier, which suggested he wasn't really reading the game. I still don't like mothrax's attitude, so I'm keeping my vote on him. Will reread the last few pages and post again tonight.

[Charlie]

@Charlie: which one of my games did you read?

The long completed newbie game 925 you didn't play. I remembered your old avatar and in that game and the loopy antics that happened in that game. It is irrelevant to the current discussion so topic is dropped.

[Benmage]

@Benmage: We will discuss policy lynching if we don't find someone scummier to hang.

I am against policy lynches and I don't like people who suggest them

. It distracts the town, it cools down wagons and it's overall horribly bad for the town to enforce/discuss them. Same goes for Toogeloo.

Hmm...

Atm really not liking charlie, raven, agar. Oh, and tubby needs to post more:

Unvote, Vote Tubby

Lol, the tubby vote is policy lynch reasoning One O One.

[mothrax]

TF, why don't you like my reaction to your vote on me? What about it specifically?

[Toogeloo]

@Toogeloo and mothrax, I take it that diginova's claim doesn't change your feelings about him significantly. You're both leaving your votes on him without mentioning it.

Needs to be answered...

@Toogeloo and mothrax, I take it that diginova's claim doesn't change your feelings about him significantly. You're both leaving your votes on him without mentioning it.

I was debating the responses and biding my time. I personally think that Jailkeeper is a safe claim for a Scum Roleblocker. Jailkeepers aren't very common in my experience, and if he is Mafia aligned with roleblocking powers, he has made himself an out. I also don't like the timing of the claim as it came sort of off the cuff. All the same, it does me no good to tunnel on the bastard while we have plenty of day light available, but I don't have to unvote to focus elsewhere. When I feel the need to move my vote, I will do so.

@Stef
You seem a bit over the top on the policy lynch thing. Benmage had simply asked people's stances on the matter, I gave my opinion on his Lynch all Liars stance and elaborated later down the line that if there is sufficient doubt one way or another on a lynch, that I could see Policy Lynches as a viable solution. Aside from that, I don't recall too much railed discussion on actually policy lynching people.

Lol @ the claim. A little premature imo but nothing we can do about it now. Still hasn't changed my opinion about him just being bad town.

...

Just note for myself: I don't like how many people didn't have any problems with the easy claim. Note to others: DO NOT CLAIM until you are ASKED TO (by more people, not just one). DO NOT hammer without A CLAIM.

^This comes off a little forced as a pro-town stance. Not really feeling you at the moment Stef. Your observations thus far don't come off as scum hunting but just posts for appearance.

FoS Stef

[Mr.Sandman]

Pretty much everyone, scum and town, just makes up policies which suit them at the time as far as I've observed. I'm not a fan of so-called policy lynches. They're never 'policies' as such. They're just an excuse to put down a vote and then blame the vote on the policy if it all goes wrong.

I agree with the post above me. An ISO of Stef highlights the fact that more than half her posts are prod dodging.

@Zorblag No, his claim doesn't... even if the roleclaim is true, like you said, the allignment could go either way. I don't necessarily believe him when he says that he is town alligned...

Townie brownie.

Why does that make you think mothrax is town? Do you not think Raven's scummy any more?

[Lowell]

prod avoidance. happy to join whatever wagon looks fun.

[mothrax]

um... no.... seriously Lowell? 5 posts, none with content, and no scumhunting whatsoever...
That reeks of lurking...
UNVOTE: VOTE: Lowell

[tubby216]

@Benmage: We will discuss policy lynching if we don't find someone scummier to hang.

I am against policy lynches and I don't like people who suggest them

. It distracts the town, it cools down wagons and it's overall horribly bad for the town to enforce/discuss them. Same goes for Toogeloo.

Hmm...

Atm really not liking charlie, raven, agar. Oh, and tubby needs to post more:

Unvote, Vote Tubby

Lol, the tubby vote is policy lynch reasoning One O One.

sorry shite has been wAy busy here at the tubby house. I promise i will have a catch up post coming soon.

[Anon]

Okay.

Unvote Vote: Benmage.

[Anon]

Sooo on the whole policy lynching thing. I think we should policy lynch Lowell. I purposely avoided him for centuries. I denied him access to the 1 game I've modded here. He in my opinion ruined a game with a mislynch of himself in lylo (mini 758 I think, I can look up). He's opened this game playing as poorly and I doubt there will be a change. He will bring zero content to the game, play poorly/illogically and lurk throughout.

unvote vote Lowell

The reasons is this vote.

He knows Lowell has played like this before. AS TOWN.

Yet he votes him.

Can we please lynch this scumbag?

[Wraith]

Activities dropping somwhat ATM due to Starcraft II (:P). So I'll post my first four finished ISOs to keep my activity up. Note: These were compiled last night, so I probably don't have all these people's latest posts. Bolded posts are what I see as scummy, italicized are townie, all others are neutral.

AGar

0: off-topic
1: hello
2: off-topic
3: off-topic
4: votes for diginova b/c diginova started a policy lynch on millar
5: justifies vote, says confirmation bias is scummy
6: randomvote
7: states randomvote is random
8: states joke posts are null tells
9: votes Wraith, guessing RVS
10: EBWOP
11: pushes Wraith BW
12: claims Wraith is scummy

13: claims pro-town read on Fugitive, votes diginova, justifies by saying policy lynches limit scumhunting
14: justifies RVS votes by claiming random votes garner reactions from players

15: wants Charlie to be specific on a null-tell
16: restates vote on diginova, repeats specification from Charlie

17: scumhunts Fugitive based on F’s randomvote for mothrax BW
18: rightfully accuses diginova of lurking strat, rightfully scumhunts Fugitive for wagoning for no reason

19: accuses diginova of fence-sitting, neutral regarding claim
20: FoS Wraith for fence-sitting and

preventing L-1

21: questions Lowell’s vote
22: votes Wraith for being twitchy on an FoS
23: justifies Wraith vote claiming setting “deadline” for discussion is scummy

Has contributed a lot and done a lot of scumhunting. However I have to say you’re jumping the gun on diginova and myself. You had some good points on diginova before the claim but it seems reasonable enough. Some players do some lurking on Day 1, I’m usually one of them. And you know I’m a twitchy player by nature.

Conclusion: Leaning Pro-Town

Anon

0: randomvote, questions AGar’s Fugitive vote
1: questions AGar on joke posts being tells
2: rereading after prod
3: votes diginova, justifies based on overdefensiveness
4: believes diginova’s jailkeeper claim, votes mothrax
5: votes Charlie based on lurking and major fence-sitting
6: elaborates on post 5
7: attacks Charlie, pushes Charlie lynch
8: asks Charlie to scumhunt

Dropped out of activity for almost a week, I don’t think scum would do that TBH. Accuses Charlie justifiably, but I’m concerned about the possibility that he’s tunneling scum.

Conclusion: Slightly Leaning Pro-Town

Benmage

0: off-topic
1: off-topic
2: randomvote
3: asks diginova to explain policy lynch on millar
4: dislikes Zorblag’s posting style
5: off-topic
6: like’s AGar’s RVS maneuvering, fan of policy lynches, agrees/disagrees with several posts, votes Mothrax
7: answering prod
8: catching up
9: states AGar is jumping to conclusions on diginova, agrees with LAL, counters mothrax’s attack on his vote
10: says mothrax’s holding vote on diginova despite claim “shows balls”

Has had several drops in activity which I doubt scum will do. Has contributed much in regards to his own personal policies but has usually served as a “yes man” to other players. Need some more contribution.

Conclusion: Neutral

CCARaven4

0: randomvote
1: Unvotes, claims RVS is null-tell
2: votes diginova for

“joining a BW” reasons

3: maintains diginova vote based on flailing and deflection
4: elaborates on diginova’s actions
5: justifies diginova vote, attacks Toon Fighter and Fugitive

I think you’ve given good enough reasons for your vote on diginova, but that is offset by the iffy “I’ll just hop on the bandwagon for the hell of it” reasoning when you first voted for diginova. In short, post more. I’ve seen very little out of you in comparison to others.

Conclusion: Neutral

[mothrax]

its less lowells lurking and more the "I will join whatever bandwagon looks fun" statement... he does not even give a reason for his lack of hunting. Not only that, but he flat out admits he isn't really going to think for himself.

[AGar]

Because he's fence-sitting and stalling L-1... Keeping a close eye on him.

Stalling L-1? Seriously? You really think Digi should have been lynched at that stage of the game? Also, why are you mostly ignoring the claim?

RTFT.

L-1 is a pressure cooker for making scum break, and as long as you don't have idiot-town, it'll work out in the end. Wraith was saying "No one should be at L-1 until we have 8 more pages." Why does it have to be 8? Why couldn't digi be put at L-1 right then and there? Why not push him a little harder?

Waiting and letting discussion develop is great. But saying "We need at least X pages before we lynch someone," sounds like scum just trying to buy time

Not quite. I'd say it looks more like fail logic. Scum doesn't like buying time D1 if they are not a major wagon (which he wasn't). It does look like you making bullshit points though. And you did say that he is scummy for trying to prevent a L-1 (thus suggesting that it should have happened) so unless you are suggesting a scum-team including both Wraith and Digi your theory is crap. You should know better and that makes me think that you do know better.

First of all, if scum all followed the exact same meta, we'd catch them every game. It's called a meta-shift, and also scum trying to appear to be townie too hard (that's a perfect example).

And, no, my theory isn't crap if I'm not suggesting a Wraith/Digi scumteam. Wraith could be scum trying to appear very townie by promoting extended discussion and also trying to deter a Digi wagon if he knows Digi to be town. That was the theory, that was what you're missing in my points.


Hmm Charlie - if you'd read the thread, you'd know I also suspect Wraith (although that's dropping fast) and Diginova to a lesser extent. I'm not 100% sold on the claim, and I never said I was. Stef is also trying to force pro-towniness and trying to misrepresent players with her posts.

Lowell's post is null-tell. He does that regardless of alignment.

[Anon]

CAN WE PLEASE LYNCH BENMAGE FOR VOTING SOMEONE FOR A NULLTELL?

[Anon]

Sooo on the whole policy lynching thing. I think we should policy lynch Lowell. I purposely avoided him for centuries. I denied him access to the 1 game I've modded here. He in my opinion ruined a game with a mislynch of himself in lylo (mini 758 I think, I can look up). He's opened this game playing as poorly and I doubt there will be a change. He will bring zero content to the game, play poorly/illogically and lurk throughout.

unvote vote Lowell

The reasons is this vote.

He knows Lowell has played like this before. AS TOWN.

Yet he votes him.

Can we please lynch this scumbag?

gogogogo benmage LYNCH

[AGar]

Does Benmage have a history of playing with Lowell? Because otherwise, he probably won't know that Lowell is basically just an easy target for scum to policy lynch later on.

[Benmage]

So it would be better if I voted on moth's pretenses? If I just voted on Lowell's current behavior? Would that of made me look town? I explained why Lowell needs to hang before he ruins this game like he did in my last experience.

Clearly Anon, you don't know what a policy lynch is. Its lynching a scumbag who may, or maynot flip scum. Regardless, said person is a massive massive hindrance to the town. Getting rid of them is the best, most ideal move for the town. Lowell will not be nk'd because he wont scum hunt. He'll vote incorrectly and screw the game for the town. My vote could not be better placed.

You're going to be sitting in lylo twiddling your thumbs going "fuck" now we have the single most anti-player ever alive...but its a null tell because hes always anti town, do we lynch or not....why lose than when D1 is the most opportunistic time to do this.

Lowell is as bad as zwet. I'm sure in your limited experience you haven't come across such people. But they need to hang asap.

[Benmage]

Does Benmage have a history of playing with Lowell? Because otherwise, he probably won't know that Lowell is basically just an easy target for scum to policy lynch later on.

Did you not read my policy lynch post/statements regarding Lowell? Allow me to quote:

Sooo on the whole policy lynching thing. I think we should policy lynch Lowell. I purposely avoided him for centuries. I denied him access to the 1 game I've modded here. He in my opinion ruined a game with a mislynch of himself in lylo (mini 758 I think, I can look up). He's opened this game playing as poorly and I doubt there will be a change. He will bring zero content to the game, play poorly/illogically and lurk throughout.

unvote vote Lowell

[AGar]

D1 is the most opportunistic time to do this.

No. A million times no.

D1 is the worst day for policy lynches. It gives town next to no reads. At all.

Playstyle policy lynches are hilariously bad for town.

Pegging you up a few notches atm.

EBWONPreview:

I saw it, and it didn't click with me for some reason. I remember it now that I re-read it.

I still don't agree with it.

[Anon]

So it would be better if I voted on moth's pretenses? If I just voted on Lowell's current behavior? Would that of made me look town? I explained why Lowell needs to hang before he ruins this game like he did in my last experience.

Clearly Anon, you don't know what a policy lynch is. Its lynching a scumbag who may, or maynot flip scum. Regardless, said person is a massive massive hindrance to the town. Getting rid of them is the best, most ideal move for the town. Lowell will not be nk'd because he wont scum hunt. He'll vote incorrectly and screw the game for the town. My vote could not be better placed.

You're going to be sitting in lylo twiddling your thumbs going "fuck" now we have the single most anti-player ever alive...but its a null tell because hes always anti town, do we lynch or not....why lose than when D1 is the most opportunistic time to do this.

Lowell is as bad as zwet. I'm sure in your limited experience you haven't come across such people. But they need to hang asap.

You know he behaves like that as town. Why the HELL are you voting him then? Its a nulltell at least.

Are you really pushing a policy lynch on page 9? You dont have any scum reads?