Open 233: Ninja Mafia Boogaloo - Over!

[StrangerCoug]

I'll start with the important bit. L-2 does not mean it's time to claim. It's time to claim when we've got someone in the thread who's ready to hammer. Until then it's time for the person being wagoned to defend them self. When someone claims we should be having them claim because we're ready to lynch them and I doubt we're at that point for Shattered Viewpoint just now.

In one of my earlier games somebody posted a formula as to when someone should claim. I suppose that's out of date/fallacious in the first place then?

[Enigma]

Regarding SV: There is nothing wrong with being an arrogant bastard. Whatever get's the job done right?

@Stranger
With so many VT's in this game and a very unpredictable set up it is kind of obsolete claiming. He could fake claim VT and everyone would be pretty much just as clueless as before at this stage. Given you gave some thought into this setup (I sure hope you did) I'm sure you would have considered this possibility. Isn't it kind of ironic when you are telling him to claim when you pretty much know exactly what he is going to claim?

@SV
I said it before: I doubt scum skim, they are more careful than everyone else imo. Pretty pathetic reasoning there.

Why exactly do you think scum skim?

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

I unvoted to see if you schlubs were paying attention.

Two of you are.

I don't see how it would make sure we're paying attention. Yes, it will let you see who noticed, but I don't see how that would help you find scum.

I am not the lynch you're looking for today. Make of

that

what you will.

I need to re-read and find real scum now (likely not SB).

Oh, and AGar: I am not flailing. I did mention something that I am now unable (unwilling, actually) to back up; that's the extent of my crime.

This first line doesn't sit well to me. i get the star wars thing, but I'm wondering why he said "today".

I have failed. In looking back at a couple of games, I had SB confused with a different player (who shall remain nameless).

I have now successfully painted myself into a very bad corner, and I have no idea what to do about it.

More later.

While I appreciate that SV acknowledged that he was thinking of a different player from a different game, having no idea what to do about it isn't helpful. Only thing is really to...scumhunt? that works.


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That being said, SV is seeming scummy to me, but I'm hesitant to call him scum because this wagon is gaining speed way too fast. It's only Page 6, and a wagon is at L-2 or L-3.

However, going over the votes, it seems like Zajnet has been voting opportunisticly. The first vote is to continue a wagon on AGar. He is the fourth vote on this, saying to wagon the lurker. He then votes Shattered Viewpoint, joining the now popular wagon.

So for now,

unvote, vote: Zajnet

[Sotty7]

@Sotty7, if you don't think I'm paying attention to the type of game this is do you disagree with any of my rules of thumb for what we want to do here? I claim that I'm pretty sure I know both the setup and the player mix we're dealing with and I made that post because I thought it was important to get that stuff out there.

No, the general advice was good. I just used it as a reason for my not so random, random vote.

[Zajnet]

However, going over the votes, it seems like Zajnet has been voting opportunisticly. The first vote is to continue a wagon on AGar. He is the fourth vote on this, saying to wagon the lurker. He then votes Shattered Viewpoint, joining the now popular wagon.

So for now,

unvote, vote: Zajnet

Way to use obvious RVS as evidence against me. I voted SV because I see him as the scummiest player at the moment.

[Beefster]

Yup, Zajnet is being very opportunistic.
smashbro pretty much took the words right out of my mouth (regarding Zajnet). I definitely see what he's saying about both Zajnet. I am also not for BWing SV. While he does look suspicious, it's too early to lynch.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zajnet

Some other points I'd like to bring up:
-I don't know why CC is attacking me so hard about hijacking the question aimed at SC. Even if SC does just say "what he said", it could be interpreted as scummy under certain circumstances. IIRC, I don't think SC himself has actually answered the question.
-I'm seeing SV as a VI townie.

[ConfidAnon]

Hey guys, Assuming that I can count correctly, SV is at L-2. No OMG I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WAS THE HAMMER OH NOES please. Especially since some people haven't even made a serious/non-RQS post yet.

So true.

However, going over the votes, it seems like Zajnet has been voting opportunisticly. The first vote is to continue a wagon on AGar. He is the fourth vote on this, saying to wagon the lurker. He then votes Shattered Viewpoint, joining the now popular wagon.

This is true as well.

And given SV's new explanation and the speed of the wagon . . .

Unvote, Vote: Zajnet

(Yes, I know this is my second bandwagony vote.)

[AGar]

Hey guys, Assuming that I can count correctly, SV is at L-2. No OMG I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WAS THE HAMMER OH NOES please. Especially since some people haven't even made a serious/non-RQS post yet.

So true.

However, going over the votes, it seems like Zajnet has been voting opportunisticly. The first vote is to continue a wagon on AGar. He is the fourth vote on this, saying to wagon the lurker. He then votes Shattered Viewpoint, joining the now popular wagon.

This is true as well.

And given SV's new explanation and the speed of the wagon . . .

Unvote, Vote: Zajnet

(Yes, I know this is my second bandwagony vote.)

The irony is killing me...

An opportunist voting for another opportunist.

[Zajnet]

The irony is also killing me... SV's wagon falling apart because it is "too fast," and three votes pile on me in a couple hours. This is a bullshit wagon, by the way. I voted once outside of random, for someone that I, and others, feel is likely scum, and all the sudden "TOMGZ BANDWAGONING SCUMMZ!!!!1!!!!one!!1!1!12!1eleven!111

[curiouskarmadog]

Sorry about the jokes, but

two

Star Wars references become that obvious and I have to jump on it.

I could say the same about you, actually. You're reasons so far have been "I like this wagon more than AGar," and "gut vote."

I think metas are relevant, but when you bring up your own meta is diminishes its worth. This is mostly why I voted SV.

what is your point? At least I am providing a stance, and some basic reasonings, I have to ask to get it out of you....can you please explain to me why he is scummy for the way he brought up his meta? Feel free to use his quotes.

I have failed. In looking back at a couple of games, I had SB confused with a different player (who shall remain nameless).

I have now successfully painted myself into a very bad corner, and I have no idea what to do about it.

More later.

Anyways, for now, I support the SV wagon.

Unvote, Vote: Shattered Viewpoint

Hai guys, I'm back. Caramel Gold Mudcake ftw.

SV's over-reaction, and false (?) Meta, doesn't sit right on my scumdar.

VOTE: Shattered

Quick votes…lets slow his ship up a bit.

Also, anyone who has ever played with me, knows I FUCKING HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE SAY OVER-REACTION is scummy…I think people who use this as an argument for a vote are 8 times out of 10 scum, so ding ding ding, you win the prize for this game….

Explain to me, a.) what the over-reaction was…and b.)why over-reaction is scummy…

Also going to

unvote, vote Chronopie

I haven’t forgotten about you Zaj your play is suspicious, but Chronopie has stole the light from you in my book.

Also, there is nothing wrong about fast moving up and down wagons, as long as one doesn’t go through too early.

[Zajnet]

If you can't handle Advanced Scumhunting 101, you're on the wrong site.

The way I worded that was slightly off, but this is the quote that irks me.

[Shattered Viewpoint]

@SV
I said it before: I doubt scum skim, they are more careful than everyone else imo. Pretty pathetic reasoning there.

Why exactly do you think scum skim?

Because I've seen it. Scum drop in from time to time, read the shortest posts, contribute very little that's actually relevant, and once in a while they skate by and don't get lynched.

I unvoted to see if you schlubs were paying attention.

Two of you are.

I don't see how it would make sure we're paying attention. Yes, it will let you see who noticed, but I don't see how that would help you find scum.

Scum skim. Skimming == NOT PAYING ATTENTION. Which is precisely what you're doing here, good Sir.

unvote

Vote: SmashBro

I am not the lynch you're looking for today. Make of

that

what you will.

I need to re-read and find real scum now (likely not SB).

Oh, and AGar: I am not flailing. I did mention something that I am now unable (unwilling, actually) to back up; that's the extent of my crime.

This first line doesn't sit well to me. i get the star wars thing, but I'm wondering why he said "today".

It's a generic "today" -- not that I'll be the lynch for tomrrow, either. Rolefish much?

[Shattered Viewpoint]

If you can't handle Advanced Scumhunting 101, you're on the wrong site.

The way I worded that was slightly off, but this is the quote that irks me.

Regarding SV: There is nothing wrong with being an arrogant bastard. Whatever get's the job done right?

[curiouskarmadog]

Zaj, please answer my questions for post 134

and shattered, please explain to me why exactly you think skimming is scummy? ("I have seen it before" doesnt cut it)...you have never seen a bored vanilla townie skim or any town for that matter? What about someone who lacks the time? Have you ever been scum? Can you please provide examples of scum skimming. (completed games please)

[Zajnet]

I am also providing a stance, and the basic reasoning is that I think so.

[Col.Cathart]

-I don't know why CC is attacking me so hard about hijacking the question aimed at SC.

Because it's damn scummy to me.

Scum skim.

Really? I always thought it's the other way around. Every scum mistake is a crucial one, while the random vanilla who is not that interested in game may not care about mistakes. So usually the scum is the one who will read every post three times to avoid mistake, while townies can be careless. It's anti-town, yes, but definitely not that scummy, unless some obvious contradiction will happen.

On the other hand...

The irony is also killing me... SV's wagon falling apart because it is "too fast," and three votes pile on me in a couple hours. This is a bullshit wagon, by the way. I voted once outside of random, for someone that I, and others, feel is likely scum, and all the sudden "TOMGZ BANDWAGONING SCUMMZ!!!!1!!!!one!!1!1!12!1eleven!111

Overreaction level just went over the scale. I have an uneasy feeling about him after that post.

[PaltryExcuse]

Hi Everyone. Paltry here and reporting in.

SV's overreaction and the attention he seems to be getting reads more exasperated than caught scum. With so much attention so quick, I would find it difficult no matter what in his situation, and I'm not really that confident in him being scum based on the 'unvote' test. I still don't like the play, but at this point my attention has been turned elsewhere. Long story short: his play, although odd, does not merit a lynch at this point.

UNVOTE: Shattered Viewpoint

My gaze turns to...

Enigma! Enigma has provided us with random votes and theory talk, 2 easy things for newer scum to do when they don't want to A) Bandwagon or B) Scum hunt.
He seems to prepping a poor reason himself to jump onto the SV-wagon:

@SV
I said it before: I doubt scum skim, they are more careful than everyone else imo. Pretty pathetic reasoning there. Why exactly do you think scum skim?

And this question to StrangerCoug just feels OFF:

@Stranger
With so many VT's in this game and a very unpredictable set up it is kind of obsolete claiming. He could fake claim VT and everyone would be pretty much just as clueless as before at this stage. Given you gave some thought into this setup (I sure hope you did) I'm sure you would have considered this possibility.

Isn't it kind of ironic when you are telling him to claim when you pretty much know exactly what he is going to claim?

And so:
VOTE: Enigma

[Shattered Viewpoint]

and shattered, please explain to me why exactly you think skimming is scummy?

I'll do my best. What grade level reading comprehension would you like? (I only ask because I've already explained this here and here. But if you really, really, honestly need me to make it a little more understable for you, I'll try. Do you have a language preference? Can I get you some more coffee while I'm up? Are you comfortable? Can I get you anything else?)

("I have seen it before" doesnt cut it)...

Why not? I've seen the sun rise in the morning; do I need to get a degree in astrophysics to prove to you that it does, and will likely continue to do so?

you have never seen a bored vanilla townie skim or any town for that matter?

I have. I lynch them, too. If you aren't going to actively participate in a game, don't sign up for that game. Simple, really.

What about someone who lacks the time?

What about them? Their personal circumstances are not my problem. Next, should I try to solve homelessness or end world hunger? Just tell me, apparently I'm only here to solve your problems.

Have you ever been scum?

Yes. I'd refer you to my wiki page, but apparently you cannot be bothered to do any original research; rather, you seem content to allow other players to do all your homework for you. That being said, I've been scum in this game, this one, and this one. (The careful reader will be able to find my main account's identity in one of those games. I've been scum many more times there than here.)

Can you please provide examples of scum skimming. (completed games please)

See the above quote about doing your homework. I leave the solution as an exercise for the reader.

[Beefster]

Mafia is a game of evidence. You seem to be the only witness of "scum skim," therefore it is not a viable point. In courts and whatnot, you typically need at least 2 witnesses for any evidence to count.

[Col.Cathart]

you have never seen a bored vanilla townie skim or any town for that matter?

I have. I lynch them, too. If you aren't going to actively participate in a game, don't sign up for that game. Simple, really.

So your crusade against skimming players is more of a policy lynch then?

[Gammagooey]

So I think these arguments that SV is town because the wagon moved fast are pretty silly given that there are only 4 scum in the game, so with 7-8 players on his wagon the majority of those are almost certainly town, BUT I still like SC for scum more than SV, silverbullet is reading town to me right now and SC's vote on him looks more like an excuse to have a serious vote down than reasoning behind silver being scum.

[AGar]

Ugh I keep thinking SC = Serial Clergyman, not StrangerCoug...

Anyways, I don't like SV's reactions thus far, but I'm with PE. Not meriting of a lynch.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ConfidAnon

I really don't like that vote for an opportunist by an opportunist. If Player X commits action A and is found scummy, Player Y committing action A as well should be found scummy as well.

[AGar]

@MOD: Votecount would be lovely. Thanks, Zeets.

[Zorblag]

@Zajnet, interesting. How different would you say your voting AGar for lurking right at the start when you knew he wasn't is from Shattered Viewpoint's unvoting right at the start when he knew he wasn't voting? You seem to have found his action worth voting for but I'd call them pretty similar. Or was it other things about Shattered Viewpoint that you found scummy when you cast your vote?

re: attentiveness as a scum/town tell: It's my experience that attention to detail is more of a playstyle tell than anything else. People who pay attention will do so whether they're town or scum. People who don't won't. The reason that it's worth establishing how closely you can expect people to to watch is so that you've got a baseline for behavior. Scum could have motive (or scum buddies) that cause them to notice or not notice things that don't fit the rest of their pattern. Everyone else can think what they like in terms of tells but personally I find it useful just for establishing baselines.

@AGar, would you care to share what you were fishing for from StrangerCoug? I take it that his not giving it wasn't that much of a scum tell for you (if any) given that you're vote has stayed put.

@StrangerCoug, we're in a setup where we're certain that there are no other scum double voters or other things that could cause a legitimate danger of lynch at L-2. Assuming reasonable play there's no danger in putting people at L-1 and asking for a claim only when someone's ready to hammer. If we start getting close to deadlines then we can start pushing things but until then people should only be claiming when they're about to be lynched or when they have information they think it will be beneficial for the town to know. Today there shouldn't be any such information. I'm not sure what formula you might have been working with (I don't believe that I've heard of it) but there's no reason I can see to treat claims here any differently that they would be treated in the F11 setup. If others want to make a case to the contrary I'll listen but premature claiming mostly just helps the scum decide on their night kills.

@Paltry Excuse, why do you think scum wouldn't want to bandwagon?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[AGar]

@AGar, would you care to share what you were fishing for from StrangerCoug? I take it that his not giving it wasn't that much of a scum tell for you (if any) given that you're vote has stayed put.

I was looking for (for lack of a better term) bedside manner. I got logic and numbers, for the most part. I figured he might just slip into explaining a little too much why town is going to be alright and why the setup is balanced for X and Y reasons. I wasn't expecting too much, but I had just come out of the hospital and I was looking to gain anything to get my footing in the game.