Mini 983: It Got Worse (GAME OVER)

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Llama: One of my abilities could have been a kill, yes (redirected since none of the people I've targeted have died). It could also have been someone else's pinata gift. Staking my guilt based on incomplete role info speculation, in my opinion, is a mistake. Could you do me a favor and hold off on your kill until Amished announces who he redirected?

I just hope that it isn't a 3-4 scenario today, or we've likely already lost.

[Ythan]

Ooba, say

elect LlamaFluff

SK, stop your pointless AtEing.

[ooba]

Has anyone posting not cast an election vote?

Whats this? What do I have to do?

Vote me and I get to use my govenor powers starting today. Vote someone else and I am not allowed to use them untill tomorrow, assuming I am alive tomorrow.

Got it - gimme another 24 hours to read the rest and see if you're scum. If its 4-3 and i elect you gov when you're scum, then its game over.

[LlamaFluff]

@ Llama: One of my abilities could have been a kill, yes (redirected since none of the people I've targeted have died). It could also have been someone else's pinata gift. Staking my guilt based on incomplete role info speculation, in my opinion, is a mistake. Could you do me a favor and hold off on your kill until Amished announces who he redirected?

Of course I will, even though I am not sure what it changes since he claimed night one actions and did not direct away from you iirc.

Given my pinata gift, I doubt a kill would be one of them. I think my gift actually is useless, although proveable that it exists. May use it pretty soon just to be safe.

[SaintKerrigan]

Amished, where aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you?

(Nothing else that I need to comment on.)

[RedCoyote]

can you elaborate a bit more on your concerns with me? Additionally, do you think that a player not voting for someone he considers sure-fire scum is scummy? Why or why not?

To answer your latter question first, I do think that's scummy, but not as much as you do. I very plainly think that you have too much personal drama going on with Ythan at the moment to look at him objectively.

As for the concerns with you, I think you probably remember our rough history throughout this game as much as I do. In reverse order:

You burned your vote today far too early, forcing the town into a slightly less manageable position than necessary (but if you're town, this means the scum don't have to worry about your vote interfering with their agenda).
Amish, having no doubt gather some information at night, is none to fond of you at the moment.
We have an absolute disagreement on the value of FoSs and how they relate to contribution to the overall game.
You switching from Nikanor to Spyrex at the last minute yesterday was abrupt and out of left field. It felt more like you wanted to get off the lynch wagon than you trying to create an alternative lynch.
Your subtle remark on magnus' flip that implied that those who attacked you D1 should necessarily become more scummy.
Your earlier wagon hopping, although I guess it could be more or less stretched into your flip from Nikanor to Spyrex.
Unreasonably holding me (and only me) to some personal activity standards.
Your pigeonholing me in the same boat as Amish, when that was far too presumptive to do given the lack of information.
You putting more of a value on your first argument against me than interrogating me and attempting to understand why it was I felt the way I did.

---

So are you going all the way live and saying I'm scum with SK?

Because thats about the only way that could even possibly make sense - and I didn't "push the scales" as much as call out your ardent defense of Nik in lurker mode

in conjunction

with the throwaway vote on SK under the guise of "this one is easier now" versus even pretending to look for scum.

Sure, that's very plausible. I'm not so conceited as to expect that my reads will come up perfect, but I think it's a pretty safe bet between y'all two.

My defense of Nikanor was nothing more that a compilation of the game to that point. As I reread over my posts, I realize I had been kind of wishy-washy on Nikanor, but truth be told he was never more than a casual suspect for me. I think I found the disconnect here though, because I had forgotten about Nikanor voting you at one point yesterday. That did rub me the wrong way. Still, I'm not calling you suspect for your vote, just the positioning and maneuvering of it.

I did make a mistake though. I probably should have done you first.

You should've. I'm not even being sarcastic, because then I'd have known you'd had a pulse. You complain about me not looking for scum (which is wrong, by the way, so just let me know when you're ready to retract that), but what have you brought to the table? Like I said earlier, I think every person in the game has been in the spotlight at one point or another, be it Ythan v.s. SK, Amish, SPS, and me with the fake protect debacle, Llama and UK leading the push on Nikanor, etc, while you've just kind of kicked back and let it all happen. Can you point to something you've orchestrated? Something you've had to defend yourself on? Something that makes you stick out at all this game? I think you've been playing it close to the vest for a reason, and it's not because you're a Cop.

[SaintKerrigan]

To answer your latter question first, I do think that's scummy, but not as much as you do. I very plainly think that you have too much personal drama going on with Ythan at the moment to look at him objectively.

While I despise the playstyle Ythan chooses to use, it has nothing to do with why I think he's scum. Thus far, when I've seen this tell, it's been 100% accurate. That alone is enough for me to vote on. Additionally, I've allowed opportunity for Ythan to offer a plausible town reason for what he's doing, but I don't buy the explanation he offered begrudgingly. I thus think, beyond all doubt, that Ythan is scum. My fault was in mishandling how I conveyed that information.

You burned your vote today far too early, forcing the town into a slightly less manageable position than necessary (but if you're town, this means the scum don't have to worry about your vote interfering with their agenda).

If I think Ythan is 100% scum, why shouldn't I vote for him right away?

Amish, having no doubt gather some information at night, is none to fond of you at the moment.

I'm actually surprised that I'm the only person so far who's suggested that Amishedscum could've redirected someone with a killing ability (whether it's one of my mystery abilities or someone's pinata gift). The probability is far from zero. I'm interested in seeing who he claims to have redirected. Plus, I know UK didn't delay a killing action from me N1 because if she had, Spyrex would be dead on N2. But I have no way to prove that, unfortunately.

We have an absolute disagreement on the value of FoSs and how they relate to contribution to the overall game.

All my testing was for was to find out what majority FoSing would do. I was doing considerably more than argue for people to FoS me, you know, which rather negates that aspect of your argument. To be honest, I think you're making this into something it actually isn't.

You switching from Nikanor to Spyrex at the last minute yesterday was abrupt and out of left field. It felt more like you wanted to get off the lynch wagon than you trying to create an alternative lynch.

I knew plurality would get Nikanor lynched if I couldn't get a Spyrex majority, and by that time Spyrex was not only scummier than Nikanor, but a more viable candidate than Ythan (my first choice). And how is it abrupt if it happens based on newly-acquired data?

Your subtle remark on magnus' flip that implied that those who attacked you D1 should necessarily become more scummy.

That was a cheap shot. I'll give you that one.

Your earlier wagon hopping, although I guess it could be more or less stretched into your flip from Nikanor to Spyrex.

So...if it boils down to my change from Nikanor to Spyrex, what exactly makes this different from the previous concern you brought up? In any event, see my earlier response regarding Nik/Spy.

Unreasonably holding me (and only me) to some personal activity standards.

Wasn't my finest piece of scumhunting, to be sure, but why is it scummy rather than just asininity?

Your pigeonholing me in the same boat as Amish, when that was far too presumptive to do given the lack of information.

Pardon me for saying so, but who are you to tell me that I don't have enough information to make a guess about your alignment? That's for me to decide. Additionally, consider this: at the end of D2 you were the sole third place for scumhood. Then you got competition from Amished, making me less sure on that front. Now, actually, you're becoming one of my tentative town reads (because you as scum is making less and less sense to me as time goes on).

You putting more of a value on your first argument against me than interrogating me and attempting to understand why it was I felt the way I did.

Just because you defend yourself doesn't guarantee that I'm going to believe you or change my mind. I

did

interrogate you when you were around.

I'm starting to think about the possibility of there being two scumteams in this game. If I feel like it I might actually try to make it more substantial than a motley of data and gut feelings.

[Ythan]

He really just keeps trying doesn't he.

[ooba]

Has anyone posting not cast an election vote?

Whats this? What do I have to do?

Vote me and I get to use my govenor powers starting today. Vote someone else and I am not allowed to use them untill tomorrow, assuming I am alive tomorrow.

Assuming I vote for you today and make you a governor
- If you're scum, and there's three left, its an auto loss for the town
- If you're town, then scum would know not to quickhammer so its wasted anyway
Do not see any real reason to take that risk ...

Also re-reading going on very slowly ..

[ooba]

On page 29 .. I looked at the players alive and started concentrating on their posts ..

SK\SpyreX is decent
- SK's initial neutral on SpyreX
- SpyreX voting SK pretty strongly
- SK's 438 where he moves SpyreX from seemingly neutral to scummy
- At start of D2, their mutual bussing becomes ok again
Also killing MO who was constantly pushing the SK-SpyreX connection.

If there's a third, it might be RC or Amished.

Sleeping now.. More in like 12 hours ..

[Ythan]

Llama, do you know all of your abilities should you be elected? Also did you ever tell me if the execute was a day kill or a quick-lynch ability?

[SaintKerrigan]

He really just keeps trying doesn't he.

Well I'm not rolling over and handing you the game on a silver platter.

[Ythan]

We've lost four townies and an SK. If you die we'll still have to find the other scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, do you know all of your abilities should you be elected? Also did you ever tell me if the execute was a day kill or a quick-lynch ability?

I have been told of two. After talking to the mod it sounds like that is all I will get.

Also I lied. I do not get a daykill. Hoped to get a reaction from SK pointing either way, or scum delcaring a win if he was town.

I get the power to bring someones point total to zero, and the ability to reset the votecount (it does have to be 5+ days to deadline though).

[Ythan]

Lol what gay powers.

[SaintKerrigan]

Also I lied. I do not get a daykill. Hoped to get a reaction from SK pointing either way, or scum delcaring a win if he was town.

If I were scum, I wouldn't fall for that. Just sayin'. Interesting powers you've got, there, btw.

All right, Amished, since Llama apparently can't kill me, you might as well vote for me. What's with the lurking all of a sudden, anyway?

Also, why assume there's only two scum, Ythan?

[Ythan]

Scum is both singular and plural genius. Nice try though.

[SaintKerrigan]

Fine, I'll give you that one.

You're still scum, though. Don't forget that.

[Ythan]

For some reason that you never posted or the one stupid one you did?

[LlamaFluff]

Lol what gay powers.

I know really. Was at least hoping for standard govenor.

SK/RC still is a somewhat annoying thing to me.

If the whole situation regarding the UK action really was not something to be considered at this point, I think I would be advocating a RC over SK lynch right now. There just is an uncanny ammount of role blocking power in this game. UK, RC and Spy? They are all different (delay, random target, jail), but three that effect the kill seems a bit too much.

I would lean to just RC or Spy and SK together at this point. RC has more specific partners, I think it would have to be ooba and ythan unless someone bussed RC at some point. That or there are two blocking powers on scum which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Spy-SK would probably have a last member of Amish at this point, although again bussing would have needed to occur.

Going to think about this, but given the powers that are out there I see zero way for SK to not be scum. Two kills today just feels wrong given only one initally. Actually wait.... im an idiot.

If SK was delayed N1, how did MO die?

Simple answer would be that someone else killed MO. Amish apparently had nothing to do with it.

Does this really mean there are three killing groups in this game?

Has to right?

Night two....

UK and SC claimed roles that could not kill

Amished did ???
Llama did nothing
Spy jailed SK
SK was blocked
Ythan did ???
RC blocked ???
SPS/ooba did nothing (?)

That does not help.

I think that we have to be dealing with two group though, as nothing else explains two kills.

The two that *may* have been able to kill would have been SK and Nik, Nik was dead, SK was blocked.

Damn this complicated things.

Crap crap crap.

This eliminates one of the things against SK, although he is a top couple either way. RC I am going to take another look at now though, since it looks like both could be scum here (and I wouldn't be suprised by it).

Oh this game is just a million hillarious things.

Anyone else see any way for last night without two anti-town groups alive?

Given my "lots of roleblockers" thing, I would say at least two of RC/Spy/SK are scum here, if not all three of them. Two have claimed RB varients, one that can never be responsable for a convienently town target, the other just a JK so not as bad, although it gives incentive to target town to protect them. SK still does not come out smelling like roses, but I need to do some reevaluating here I believe.

[SaintKerrigan]

Would it complicate things more if I said I was willing to compromise and do a Spyrex lynch today? (Unless there's a miracle surge for Ythan...)

[Ythan]

There won't be a miracle surge for Ythan unless you post a real case. And no, I think anyone could account for you bussing at this point if they think he's scum.

[LlamaFluff]

You two, ignore eachother for one second and pay attention to me.

Do you think what I said about the N2 kill thing makes sense?

Who did Spy blocked N1? I remember him saying SK N2 but I forget who was first night.

[Ythan]

I'm not seeing your post come together into a single point at any one place, it just looks like you were meandering about and posting thought to thought. Concision?

[SaintKerrigan]

Spy blocked SPS on N1. And then "forgot" that SPS was playing, despite having jailed him.

Llama, I highly recommend reading SPS ISO 22 and 23, as well as Spyrex's responses. It should be illuminating on the case for Spyrex-scum.

Also, I'm also beginning to think that there may be two scumteams. I mentioned this earlier. If there was anything else about the N2 kills you wanted me to comment on, I missed it.