Newbie 983 ~ Game Over!

[Good and Honest]

Well, my second game on this forum is now over and you can take a look at it:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14441

The group of players there accepted me and my playstyle and didn't lynch me on the first day. Then... I was killed during the first night. WHAT?! Good and Honest, "fundamentally detrimental to the town", was killed by the mafiosi at the first opportunity?! Even without voting or making those precious "suspect lists", I was considered a big threat?! And then in the post-game comments the mafiosi explained that they had killed me because I was "very investigative". In fact, here is a direct quote of what a mafioso told me:

"I brought up your lynch because you were too dangerous to keep alive. Your play would have rooted us out in the end, and I didn't want to risk that. I also considered the possibility of a cop clearing you Night One. In the end, you were the most effective nightkill for us. Your play is potentially useful to the right town, and dangerous to an anti town force."

Fundamentally detrimental to the town, indeed.

archaebob, I really appreciate what you have told me. You made a big effort to help me. However, the fact that both foilist13 and you don't believe my character is real pains me too much. You seem to think that there can't be an individual who is an intelligent, disciplined thinker and at the same time very emotional and, in a way, so incredibly naive... Well, there can be such an individual. And there is. drmyshottyizsik's questions at the beginning of the game are great, actually. Here is what I answered to the fourth question:

"One interesting thing about yourself - well, I'm very peculiar and I realize it. I have the feeling I'm incompatible with this world..."

Yes, I'm not compatible with a world where people don't even take into consideration the possibility that someone may feel awful if they accuse/vote/"kill" someone in a game... To others this may seem small or unimportant but to me it's extremely important. In fact, there are countless examples of things that are extremely important to me and people just can't understand why...

Tell me, please. Is it such a problem that people won't be able to judge a SINGLE player in a particular game based on "voting patterns"? Shouldn't the fact that they won't be able to rely on this good old recipe actually make the game more interesting and challenging? I'm sure there will always be a way, obvious or not, at least to have some idea of what my role in a game is - because, unlike what you think, I actually mean every word I write. How can you not FEEL how passionate I am about this game? But then, of course, what you feel is not always right (your theory that I have a friend on this site who I hope won't realize who I am is so absurd that it almost lightened me up)...

Yes, being an intelligent, disciplined thinker usually suggests being rational. But, as I said, there are many, many things I feel strongly about and that's absolutely IRRATIONAL. You're being rational when you give arguments why I should change my playstyle... but that just burdens me emotionally because I strongly believe in my playstyle, my belief is irrational and I can't and don't want to change it.

I have seen players on this site who basically give no reasons for anything they do. I can't say I agree with that but this is the way they have chosen to play and they have every right to do it. Why don't I have the right to play in a way which suits my personality?!?!

To everyone - you can lynch me if you want. But do it if you honestly don't like my playstyle, not because of the completely wrong reason that I'm "fundamentally detrimental to the town". I didn't want to say it until now but my playstyle is actually fundamentally detrimental to the MAFIA. How come none of you even explored the "good" part of my playstyle? Believe me, as people on this site come to better understand my playstyle, my mafia partners in a game will surely be the most eager to get rid of me...

And to use a "Cop" investigation on me is actually the most stupid thing that could be done in a game I participate in. If I'm a mafioso in it, wow, one of the mafiosi was just discovered. How exciting! I really can't understand how I can potentially be "dangerous" for the town - whenever I'm a mafioso, I'll basically represent no threat at all...

When I registered here, I had completely different ideas of what would happen. I knew that during my first few games people wouldn't know whether to believe me about my playstyle... But I thought that, the more games I played, the more people would realize that this was indeed my playstyle and would take it into consideration when they play in a game with me. Yes, a game with me is a different experience - but I thought that would actually be intriguing for the other players. I have thought about so many exciting situations in a game where I, with my playstyle and my writing style, could make the game enjoyable for everyone...

Instead it looks like in (almost) every game I'll play in, I'll have to dedicate most of my energy to defend my playstyle. I'm not sure I can endure that. Still, if it were only arguments, fine. But when people state that my character, which is the reason for my playstyle, is not real, that maddens me. I realize that not everyone can believe what I say (especially on the Internet) but I just can't get over this. archaebob, at least you showed understanding. foilist13, although you probably won't read this, you need to better differentiate your aggressive approach towards the game from your attitude towards the other players (who happen to be individuals with real emotions). I'm sure you didn't intend it but I was deeply hurt.

Right now I'm EXHAUSTED emotionally. I have been thinking about this game for hours and hours... The burden of all the arguments and defenses I have been thinking of (just a tiny part of which appear in my posts; almost everything remains in my head) is too huge. I'm sad to admit it but I'm feeling bad. That's not what I registered here for. It wasn't meant to be like this...

archaebob, once again, thank you for your words. I definitely don't want you to feel guilty. I guess just the circumstances have been unfortunate...

Sorry that I'm not commenting on what has happened most recently in the game. I just don't have any desire to do it at the moment. I'm not sure what to do...

[KittyMo]

[3] Hinduragi - (archaebob, drmyshottyizsik, foilist13)

[2] drmyshottyizsik - (Hinduragi, Prox)
[1] Prox - (Haylen)
[1] Good and Honest - (Switz)

[0] archaebob - ()
[0] foilist13 - ()
[0] Haylen - ()
[0] silverbullet999 - ()
[0] Switz - ()

[2]

Not Voting

- (Good and Honest, silverbullet999)

With

9

alive, it's

5

to lynch!

Deadline is at Wednesday, August 4, 2010 at 9:00:00 PM (Los Angeles time)

Flavor

[archaebob]

@ G&H -

Well, there's obviously nothing I can do to dissuade you. You're gonna stick to this character no matter what I say, probably because you think that if you push it hard enough eventually we'll just have to believe you. Maybe some people will, but I won't. You're not as clever at acting as you think you are.

Anyways, I'm done talking about this.

I'm willing to let you live into D2, but only if you can give me some kind of a compromise. It is simply not acceptable to categorically refuse voting AND suspect lists AND attacking players. I need at least two of those three. If you want to abstain from actual voting...well...I don't like it at all but I'm willing to give it a try. But you cannot simply reject outright every standard of town play that has become the common practice on this site. People have been playing this game here for YEARS. There's a good reason for the way that we scum-hunt.

Also, the mafia you played against in the other game may have said that, but it doesn't mean anything. If it was me, I'd have left your ass alive. And I would have gotten you lynched too, trust me.

[archaebob]

unvote
vote haylen

For the utterly empty vote on Prox, and for having done absolutely nothing of consequence in this game so far.

We aren't lynching Hinduragi yet, so let's go bandwagon some of these other scumbags. I'm very optimistic about this game right now, and I think we might be able to nail both scum on the first day. To do this though, we need to keep moving. Also, I want to see what Hindu will do with a little breathing room. We might be wrong about him after all.

[foilist13]

@Good & Honest: Believe it or not, I have been reading your posts, and I've decided that I might get more milagr out of you this way since 0 tolerance didn't seem to work.

First and foremost, I dispute that a person truly of the character you have described would choose to play a game based on lies and deceit. I fail to see where the pay off is for you. In the end game you're going to have to lynch somebody and you'll feel terrible right at the last, especially if you're wrong. So clearly you are taking some enjoyment from this game, or you wouldn't be here, however if I accept everything you've said as true I can't see what that would be.

You may have come to this site, perhaps at te request of friends, and decided that you were going to be the only truly good and honest player on the site, and you would revolutionize the game that way. The problem with this scenario is that fundamentally this is a contrived character, even if if is close to your actual character in real life.

Now look at this from my point of view. I have this anomally who is entirely unreadable. His posts are filled to the brim with appeal to emotion trying to get me and archaebob off his back. I have no information about this person and no reason to expect I will have any if this person carries on the way they have been. The rules say play to win. In order for the town to win, we need to know if you are scum. Your playstyle prevents me from doing that. How do you suggest I proceed?

[Prox]

@Hinduragi: You are so scummy. I'm not even sure I can explain how scummy you are. Everything about that last post is clearly designed to avoid drawing an attack.

unvote, vote:hinduragi

My hope right now is that a cop will investigate G&H and take the pressure off us having to lynch him. If that does not happen though, then we have no choice but to lynch him.

@Switz: I'll get to you later.

I still don't get this. I would try to avoid drawing an attack regardless of my alliance. Getting attacked is scary. And getting mislynched is failure.

Look at your post.

Go ahead and try to explain it then. I'm sure it's suspicious, though.

This is one of many many examples. Look at the way you structure your response. If you were a townie you would be adamant that I am wrong. You however, have chosen to say there is merit to my suspicion, but I just happen to be wrong. That is classic scum mentality. Rather than attack my argument or me, you tried to diffuse the situation by appeasing me and being nice to me. This has absolutely nothing to do with the content of your posts, who you're attacking, or who you suspect. This is about the simple structure of your writing and your attitude towards the other players. You have a scum mentality.

No, he actually seems more accepting of the fact that you will call him scummy for whatever he does (which is pretty accurate). I still don't get it.


Note:
New Objective: Get G&H to either sub out or change his mind.

Good and Honest, "fundamentally detrimental to the town", was killed by the mafiosi at the first opportunity?!

No comment.

But I saw many points in that post that could have been condensed. Please??? Have you heard of tl;dr? Google it. People read short things more often than long things.

You seem to think that there can't be an individual who is an intelligent, disciplined thinker and at the same time very emotional and, in a way, so incredibly naive... Well, there can be such an individual. And there is.

But he shouldn't be playing mafiascum. I'm sorry, but you're going against the object of the game. Understand that this is, JUST A GAME. Votes and lynches don't really hurt! When you NK someone, he isn't really getting shot! If you hate to mislynch, then practice, so you won't anymore! But don't harm the town by existing in this game in this way.

I can see that you are a relatively intelligent person! You should be able to understand that people like KittyMo and Haylen play this game NOT because they're blood-thirsty people who dream of lynching people in a mob-ruled society! See it our way- or don't play. You understand what I'm saying? If you want to play the game, then play the game!

To everyone - you can lynch me if you want. But do it if you honestly don't like my playstyle, not because of the completely wrong reason that I'm "fundamentally detrimental to the town".

That is the RIGHT reason! This is a game we're playing, and you're hurting it. The town has the RIGHT to lynch the person they think most detrimental to their purpose of outliving the scum. You're basically either taking a town-aligned slot and removing its signifigance (basically one less player) or taking a scum role and playing it in a DECEITFUL way.

You are supposed to play toward your win condition! What you are doing is comparable to scum trying to get all his partners lynched "because he hates to be scum"!


Why are you playing this game if you don't want to play it?
Is someone making you, or do you just take joy in harming whatever faction you end up part of?

[Prox]

My point of that "attack" on you was not to attack you it was to prove how silly your claims were.

Bull. The point of your attack was to attack me for attacking you. If it wasn't an attack meant to attack me, why did you vote for me? Please note that the bulk of your "attack" on me was focused on using the same points I did against you.

I used the exact same points on you that you used on me. I used logical points to defend myself and then attack you. So if you are calling me scummy, then you have a problem with yourself.

You said the points were silly...

You said the points were silly...
You said the points were silly...
You said the points were silly...
You said the points were silly...!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly!! I attack you using the same logic that you used against me, neither of us had a valid point, thus silly.
And I voted for you because of the same logic that you voted for me.

But...why would you vote someone for reasons you consider silly?

@Haylen:

Before/during your reread, I'd really appreciate it if you could answer this question Prox asked earlier; you don't have many posts and this one jumps out at me.

Nice.

So, G&H, I suppose the first and most obvious question to ask before we think about lynching you for your playstyle: Are you scum?

Why are we asking for a claim on Day One? I call rolefishing

Unvote
Vote Prox

I still don't get it. Did you say this to evoke a response from me, or because there wasn't much there to vote for and you wanted to end the RVS, or because you wanted to misrep me?

I don't see how someone with so much expirience could misinterpret me in this way.

FoS

Oh. I didn't notice that Haylen didn't respond to that.

unvote; Haylen

Haylen, Haylen, Haylen. What's up(, Haylen)?

People Who(m?) I Have (Negative) Thoughts About:
Haylen
G&H
shotty
*the scum who isn't on this list atm due to the ignorance of the typist*

No particular order. I'll be lurking around for responses for at least another 30 minutes!

[archaebob]

I see a lot of people not doing anything.

@ Silverbullet - any reason you aren't voting?

@ Switz - what are you accomplishing with your G&H vote exactly? I like most of your play so far, but I think you aren't maximizing the information generating potential of your actions right now.

@ Haylen - You have been utterly useless, and you know better. That's why you are my current number one suspect for scum.

[Prox]

Did the whole quote mechanic thing just change design, or is it just me?

[Haylen]

Sorry, I've completely spent the last 2 days doing modding things. I am that sad. Good news is: my appeal upheld and I'm allowed to repeat the first year of my course! wootwoot!

Anywho, I actually didn't notice that question Prox put towards me, thus I am surprised to see it in front of me now.

The majority of my votes on Day One are to gouge a reaction from players, I don't just look at how the person I voted reacts, I look at how the other people in the game react. I call things how I see them, I saw Prox's question as an attempt at rolefishing - I do admit though that I came into the game a lot more aggressive than I usually do. You lot aren't the only ones trying to improve My scumhunting skills tend to be rather dismal, however I have memorised the majority of the wiki pages

*the scum who isn't on this list atm due to the ignorance of the typist*

So basically, you're saying, that you know there is one scum in that list? Is it your scumbuddy?

Edit: Prox, yes it changed.

Please don't edit your posts, Haylen. Just put in an EBWOP next time. Thanks! <3

Oh, I just realized you meant preview edit. Sorry >> ~Kitty

[Switz]

You seem to think that there can't be an individual who is an intelligent, disciplined thinker and at the same time very emotional and, in a way, so incredibly naive...

If you know you're naive, you're not naive. And honestly, your posts don't come off that emotional to me.

@ Switz - what are you accomplishing with your G&H vote exactly? I like most of your play so far, but I think you aren't maximizing the information generating potential of your actions right now.

I'm indicating that I think he should be lynched?...I'm not sure what your problem with this is. Would you rather I just voted and unvoted every player in succession, as you seem to be doing? We can question people without voting them arbitrarily. Also, how do you expect to definitively find both scum today? For one thing, you can't definitively know anything until after lynching a scum/N1 w/ a cop, and for another, I was under the impression you too were looking to get rid of G&H tonight.

And Foilist, just a quick answer on why you FoSed me, since I really don't get it.

[foilist13]

@Prox: Stop defending hinduragi. Now. If you want to attack me, that's fine, but answering for other players is a big no-no.

I still don't get this. I would try to avoid drawing an attack regardless of my alliance. Getting attacked is scary. And getting mislynched is failure.

Town have finding the scum at the forefront of their minds. Scum have survival at the forefront of their minds. That post is 100% geared towards survival.

No, he actually seems more accepting of the fact that you will call him scummy for whatever he does (which is pretty accurate). I still don't get it.

I am not interested in the content of his post. I am interested in the structure of his writing. That has not changed.

@Switz: I notice similar post structure to that of Hinduragi though to a lesser extent. You appear to have a scum mentality. Archaebob however disagrees, and we are both looking for the same thing, so I may be wrong. Either that, or your two are scum partners, but that is a bit of a stretch atm.

I can see that you are a relatively intelligent person! You should be able to understand that people like KittyMo and Haylen play this game NOT because they're blood-thirsty people who dream of lynching people in a mob-ruled society! See it our way- or don't play. You understand what I'm saying? If you want to play the game, then play the game!

Stop. The goal here is not to get Good and Honest t replace out. Like you said this is just a game. We're not here to exclude anybody. If he wants to play his way, that is his right, but there is nothing stopping us from trying to change his mind. No playstyle warrants replacement however.

[archaebob]

@ foilist -

fos foilist

You're playing really weird man.

@Prox: Stop defending hinduragi. Now. If you want to attack me, that's fine, but answering for other players is a big no-no.

Stop parroting me. Writing shit like this is my thing!

@Switz: I notice similar post structure to that of Hinduragi though to a lesser extent. You appear to have a scum mentality. Archaebob however disagrees, and we are both looking for the same thing, so I may be wrong. Either that, or your two are scum partners, but that is a bit of a stretch atm.

I don't know where you're getting that I disagree. What made you assume this exactly?

And that last sentence is unusually weaksauce for you. What's going on man?

Stop. The goal here is not to get Good and Honest t replace out. Like you said this is just a game. We're not here to exclude anybody. If he wants to play his way, that is his right, but there is nothing stopping us from trying to change his mind. No playstyle warrants replacement however.

This seems to contradict some of the stuff you've said earlier in this game. Not too long ago, you were all Mr. Hardass "vote or we'll lynch you. Get crackin." How is threatening to lynch him any less exclusive than asking him to replace out? I don't understand why you are going after Prox for saying to G&H what we've basically been saying to him ourselves.

@ haylen -

The majority of my votes on Day One are to gouge a reaction from players, I don't just look at how the person I voted reacts, I look at how the other people in the game react. I call things how I see them, I saw Prox's question as an attempt at rolefishing - I do admit though that I came into the game a lot more aggressive than I usually do. You lot aren't the only ones trying to improve My scumhunting skills tend to be rather dismal, however I have memorised the majority of the wiki pages

This whole quote is extremely weaksauce and nervous sounding to me.

Do you have nothing to say about the two votes on you? I understand that you are modding other games, but that doesn't change the fact that you haven't done anything.

And you STILL aren't doing anything.

@ switz -

I'm indicating that I think he should be lynched?...I'm not sure what your problem with this is. Would you rather I just voted and unvoted every player in succession, as you seem to be doing? We can question people without voting them arbitrarily. Also, how do you expect to definitively find both scum today? For one thing, you can't definitively know anything until after lynching a scum/N1 w/ a cop, and for another, I was under the impression you too were looking to get rid of G&H tonight.

I'd say you have it backwards. You can indicate who you think should be lynched without voting for them, but you can't really pressure players that much with just questions.

And ouch! What a misrep. Really? I'm just randomly voting all the players in succession? I've voted exactly two players, and I've explained clearly why those players got the votes they did. And unlike you, I'm making very active efforts to pressure the players that I vote in ways that I hope will expose their alignment. What are you doing to scumhunt G&H?

Also, I never said anything about "definitively finding both scum." I said I was optimistic about our chances of

nailing

both scum. Suspicions are almost never "definitively" right. They often are accurate though.

And finally, whether or not "I too" was interested in getting rid of G&H tonight should be irrelevant to whether or not you suspect him. And if you were reading the thread carefully, you might have noticed my most recent post that I addressed to him, in which I said I'd be willing to let him live at least into D2 if he were willing to compromise with me.

[silverbullet999]

fufufufufu....

So much to catch up on

alright

VOTE: vote Good

I still didn't see a vote in your post... though reading it now... slowly...

@ Silverbullet - any reason you aren't voting?

[sarcasim] I am voting now, stop putting pressure on me! [/sarcasim]

I didn't throw a vote as I wanted to see Good's reactions and if he would actually change... throwing my vote on him now cause it's obvious he won't and I'll be suspicious of him the whole game. His post just seemed to be begging to get off his back about the playstyle and he's not going to stop thus i'm fine with him bein lynched for now.

[silverbullet999]

EBWOP

ooo I double voted... damn i'm good?

[foilist13]

Stop parroting me. Writing shit like this is my thing!

Right, cuz you're the only one that doesn't like people defending others. C'mon man.

I don't know where you're getting that I disagree. What made you assume this exactly?

And that last sentence is unusually weaksauce for you. What's going on man?

You voted Hinduragi for a specific scum tell, so it stands to reason that you would be looking for that same scum tell in other players. Here is your most recent approximation of Switz:

@ Switz - what are you accomplishing with your G&H vote exactly?

I like most of your play so far

, but I think you aren't maximizing the information generating potential of your actions right now.

If you had seen that same scum tell in Switz you would have mentioned it, not said you liked his play. Ergo you disagree.

[Haylen]

Do you have nothing to say about the two votes on you?

Nope. You've never get a reaction from me from a vote, unless it's the hammer.

[foilist13]

Nope. You've never get a reaction from me from a vote, unless it's the hammer.

Well aren't we special. You're almost as bad as G&H

[foilist13]

This seems to contradict some of the stuff you've said earlier in this game. Not too long ago, you were all Mr. Hardass "vote or we'll lynch you. Get crackin." How is threatening to lynch him any less exclusive than asking him to replace out? I don't understand why you are going after Prox for saying to G&H what we've basically been saying to him ourselves.

There is a big difference between lynching someone and asking them replace out. Geez, what are you guys doing? If G&H replaces out because we decided to force him out of the game, then he has every right to be upset. This is a game. We're not here to decide who can play and who can't. Lynching him is very different. That is part of the natural course go the game, and in lynching him he is participating. Replacement is always a last resort when there is no other option.

I cannot and will not advocate forcing this player out of the game. I will absolutely support lynching him if he does not contribute to the town. I hope I've made myself clear.

[Haylen]

I cannot and will not advocate forcing this player out of the game. I will absolutely support lynching him if he does not contribute to the town. I hope I've made myself clear.

THIS.

As a mod and a player, I teach and uphold rules on tolerance in mafia. I also think policy lynches are bad, anti-game - not scummy.

[silverbullet999]

*Thirds above quote*

[Haylen]

Nope. You've never get a reaction from me from a vote, unless it's the hammer.

Well aren't we special. You're almost as bad as G&H

What? Because I don't react to votes on me? Seriously, once you've played 41 games, you start not really caring when people vote for you.

[Hinduragi]

You do understand that this is unbelievably scummy? Right?

You deserve to die just for that. If you don't want to play the game replace out.

There is a big difference between lynching someone and asking them replace out. Geez, what are you guys doing? If G&H replaces out because we decided to force him out of the game, then he has every right to be upset. This is a game. We're not here to decide who can play and who can't. Lynching him is very different. That is part of the natural course go the game, and in lynching him he is participating. Replacement is always a last resort when there is no other option.

I cannot and will not advocate forcing this player out of the game. I will absolutely support lynching him if he does not contribute to the town. I hope I've made myself clear.

You have not made yourself clear at all. You first messed up while accusing me in saying I was trying to avoid attention and I was trying to get attention. Explain why you're contradicting yourself.

@Haylen - Enlighten us why we shouldn't lynch G&H since you don't have a vote on anyone. Are you going to be active? We've seen little from you and only one actual vote. Also, I find something wrong with the fact you don't ever have a reaction until the hammer. Does this mean you just don't care about being lynched in any game because you've played in so many? That completely defeats the purpose of playing.

@G&H - I call AtE on the post at the top of this page. Answer my question from post 196.

@Shotty - You here? Did you just go inactive all of a sudden or are you active lurking?

@bob - What made you FoS foilist? The first reason is what I saw as a joke. The second one just doesn't give me a scum tell but it looks to me like you were trying to hide a possible bus. The third one is actually reasonable so I have no complaints about that.

[foilist13]

What? Because I don't react to votes on me? Seriously, once you've played 41 games, you start not really caring when people vote for you.

You yourself said your method is to vote and gauge reactions. If you set up a meta where you never react, you will never be expected to defend yourself until you get to L-1 or L2. That makes it more difficult for us to determine your alignment. That is good for scum and bad for town. You follow me?

You have not made yourself clear at all.

You first messed up while accusing me in saying I was trying to avoid attention and I was trying to get attention.

Explain why you're contradicting yourself.

The bolded portion is utter bullshit. I have explained thoroughly why your post was designed to avoid attack irrespective of the content.

Secondly, I have not contradicted myself. I suggested G&H replace out because he seemed disinterested in the game. He has since made his position much more clear, and shown that the game is in fact important to him and he is trying. I now understand the situation and no longer wish for him to replace out. You're grasping at straws here mate.

[Hinduragi]

Go ahead and try to explain it then. I'm sure it's suspicious, though.

Rather than attack my argument or me, you tried to diffuse the situation by appeasing me and being nice to me. This has absolutely nothing to do with the content of your posts, who you're attacking, or who you suspect.

I wasn't being nice to you or appeasing you. I didn't even see what you were going off of. If you didn't read it right, I wanted to know why you changed your vote and why you were calling me so scummy that you couldn't even explain it. You just called me scummy and voted for me. The only reason I said "I'm sure it's suspicious" is because earlier I was against PL'ing G&H. I already listed my reasons for changing my mind. Your entire theory is weak.