Mini 985:Madness at Night: Game over

[SpyreX]

Damnit hiphop let them fall father down that way. Not one but TWO people harping up that tree?

[hiphop]

Damnit hiphop let them fall father down that way. Not one but TWO people harping up that tree?

What are you talking about?

[hiphop]

Damnit hiphop let them fall father down that way. Not one but TWO people harping up that tree?

Oh i get it. Missed SSBF. Why did you want them going down that path?

[AlmasterGM]

First of all, I don't get this, "omg it HAS to be SpyreX by process of elimination" argument. The only people in my mind who are actually legit cleared are SSBF and nopoint. Crypto, hiphop, and Wicked could just as easily be scum as SpyreX.

And, from my perspective, I'm town and SpyreX has made a lot of arguments that made sense to me. And you can't just say "it's buddying." I logically agree with his thought process. This means 1) I'm not inclined to think he is scum because of arguments he's making, because those could just as easily apply to me and 2) He hasn't really done anything else particuarily scummy, so I have no reason to suspect him over anyone else.

I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: Wicked

Yesterday, he expressed STRONG feelings that llama ws town.

After Sando flipped scum I was 90% certain that llama was town. I think Almaster is insane if he is really a cop.

I have no idea why you guys are voting Llama, but I am 99% positive that he is town. @Everybody on the Llama wagon – Do you actually think Llama makes sense as one of Sando’s scumbuddies?

Both of these reads came DESPITE a cop claim to the contrary. To explain the reads, Wicked argued that I'm insane and SSBF is telling the truth. All becuase llama HAS to be town. What's odd, though, is that this was a COMPLETE reversal of his reads from the day prior.

I am getting a town read off of hiphop so far for reasons that podium mentioned.

I'm getting a bad feeling from each of the following:

llamaeatataco
Sando
Super Smash Bros. Fan

So, according to Wicked, because Sando flipped scum, suddenly:

1) I'm insane cop
2) SSBF is now a sane cop, not scum
3) And Llama is town.

Instead of the much simpler, more cohesive theory of

1) Llama is scum.

The switch here makes absolutely no sense ... but he somehow ended up being RIGHT. To me, this looks like he knew what the flips were going to be ahead of time and decided to base his reads accordingly ... without checking what his prior position was. Which is what lead to the logical incoherence.

[SpyreX]

Oh i get it. Missed SSBF. Why did you want them going down that path?

Because ONE person screwing that up makes a little sense.

Two? Not so much.

[Hayker]

Vote Count

SpyreX 2-(crypto, Super Smash Bros. Fan)

Wickedestjr 2-(SpyreX, AlmasterGM)

Crypto 2-(hiphop, nopointinactingup)

Not voting 1-(Wickedestjr)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

[hiphop]

Almaster- why is SSBF town?

Crypto, hiphop, and Wicked could just as easily be scum as SpyreX.

Show me how I could be scum. Just give me one example. Have you forgotten that is was a comment by ME that caused Podium to put his vote back on Sando and drive a wagon to his lynch? It was I who was leading the Charter wagon yesterday. So now I am just bussing scum. Not just one but two of them. Unless of course you come with the argument he must have known they were scum. Just like wicked must have known that llama was town.


I am going to go ahead to argue against the Wicked case. First off I argued that llama was strongly town here And this read came despite a cop claim to the contrary. To explain my reads, I argued first(way before wicked did) that Almaster is insane and SSBF is telling the truth. I made this read despite the complete reversal from the prior day where I fos and voted him here
And as for this lovely piece of work

So, according to Wicked, because Sando flipped scum, suddenly:

1) I'm insane cop
2) SSBF is now a sane cop, not scum
3) And Llama is town.

Instead of the much simpler, more cohesive theory of

1) Llama is scum.

The switch here makes absolutely no sense ... but he somehow ended up being RIGHT. To me, this looks like he knew what the flips were going to be ahead of time and decided to base his reads accordingly ... without checking what his prior position was. Which is what lead to the logical incoherence.

According to me, not wicked. It was Me, MYself, and I that came up with the whole you are insane, SSBF is sane, and llama is town, despite the illogical, out of the ball park theory of LLama is scum, when I believed that llama was town. The switch made absolutely, beyond a doubt sense, and I was right. It was because some people cannot see the fact that once someone flips scum, connections, connections, connnections. And Charter had connections and did not fit the setup. Which if that were the case SSBF and LLama were town. I decided to base my reads according to the setup, despite flipping from my previous stance. Am I supposed to keep the same reads reads throughout the game, and be as stubborn as you? Or should I do the simpler, more cohesive part of flipping the reads as I see fit?

Your argument against Wicked is forced, and completely points to me as scum. Why wicked instead of me? Also notice how what I just did completely fits my scum meta that I defened town, and bussed both scum. Just like the game that you and I played in, though nothing like the game after that one where I was scum in the game with Spyrex.

Truly look at his actions between him and scum day 1. Doesn't look like bussing to me. And now for the icing on the cake...And, from my perspective, I'm town and Wicked has made a lot of arguments that made sense to me. And you can't just say "it's buddying." I logically agree with his thought process. This means 1) I'm not inclined to think he is scum because of arguments he's making, because those could just as easily apply to me and 2) He hasn't really done anything else particuarily scummy, so I have no reason to suspect him over anyone else. Hmm...Same thing you said of spyrex.

Not only that but every single one of your reads has been off this game. Who said Sando was town? Who said Charter was town? Who said llama was scum? I believe it was you. So tell me, why should I or anyone believe that Wicked is scum?

You believe Spyrex to be town, I believe Wicked to be town, so just vote Crypto.

Spyrex- I don't understand. Why did you want them going down that path? Misunderstanding is not a scum tell. If it was, I would be scum for going after Podium on misunderstanding. Is it possible that your wording of that line leads to misunderstanding? Possible because 2 people went after it. Though I don't know why they waited 2 days before finally coming out with it. Why didn't they mention it yesterday?

[Wickedestjr]

@Almaster's vote against me -

1. I was right about Llama being town so why are you even using this point against me?
2. The bad feelings from Llama, Sando, and SSBF were from page 3. Were you seriously expecting my reads to stay as they were after reading three pages of the game? This is a terrible point.

Vote: crypto

This is mostly POE but if I have time I'll try to give a case.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

It seems that crypto is at L-1. Looks like I need to re-read his posts to see if he is scummy or not like people have been saying.

Unless of course AGM faked to get llama lynched.

Could you explain why AlmasterGM could be scum under this circumstance? My investigation of AlmasterGM Day 1 turned up town. Since AlmasterGM's Guilty investigation of llamaeatataco was proven wrong, he is confirmed townie in my book and as far as I'm concerned, an insane cop as well.

Wait something's fishy. Since Charter's scum, I thought we have no roleblocker? So why does AGM get No Result?

This is a good question. We have to remember that charter flipped vanilla Mafia, which is the equilvalent of a Mafia Goon. The other scum flip, Sando, was from Day 1, who was a Mafia Godfather. With AlmasterGM being roleblocked, I assume that the last scum is indeed a roleblocker. The roleblocking probably isn't town-intended either, further solidfying my theory that the last scum could be a roleblocker.

[hiphop]

Wait something's fishy. Since Charter's scum, I thought we have no roleblocker? So why does AGM get No Result?

This is a good question. We have to remember that charter flipped vanilla Mafia, which is the equilvalent of a Mafia Goon. The other scum flip, Sando, was from Day 1, who was a Mafia Godfather. With AlmasterGM being roleblocked, I assume that the last scum is indeed a roleblocker. The roleblocking probably isn't town-intended either, further solidfying my theory that the last scum could be a roleblocker.

You don't get it? Do you? He is saying charter(scum) claimed to be roleblocked. If he is scum, why would he say he was roleblocked? If there is a scum roleblocker, why would he come out and say he was roleblocked? Isn't he taking a chance, that the person who was roleblocked, could come out and say that charter is lying scum? So if scum-charter said he was roleblocked, and town Almaster said he was roleblocked, then charter took a gamble that the real person who was roleblocked didn't come out and reveal him.

WICKED CLAIM.

stop avoiding it.

[AlmasterGM]

@hiphop on SSBF - the many cop counters (godfather, roleblocker, miller, AND insanity) plus the lack of charter gunsmith lead me to believe that there are two cops. Also, miller plus godfather plus insane cop is weird. Why not just have those with a sane cop?

@hiphop on other stuff - The point isn't that you ARE scum, it's that you COULD be. There's no confirmed sane cop labelling you innocent.

Also, I would respond to your defense, but I kind of wanted to argue with Wicked, not you.

@Wicked -

1. Did you, like, read my post? The whole point is that you were mysteriously right when you had no logically established chain of thought to feel so.
2. The inbetween is a massive black box. Obviously your feelings for Sando stayed the same.

And would people please stop using POE. This isn't a multiple-choice test, very little is confirmed, and there's NO POE. There's just "people who you think are town" and "people who you think are scum."

[AlmasterGM]

Also, why is Wicked claiming. Is he at L-1 with hammer threat?

[hiphop]

@hiphop on SSBF - the many cop counters (godfather, roleblocker, miller, AND insanity) plus the lack of charter gunsmith lead me to believe that there are two cops. Also, miller plus godfather plus insane cop is weird. Why not just have those with a sane cop?

Is that all? Also is this the same Almaster that posted these-

@SSBF - I think we should lynch llama before you. If he flips town, then I'm insane and you

might

be cop.

notice the might. Might be cop, not is.

because there is no way there are two straight-up cops.

it's simple logic saying that SSBF had a huge incentive to fakeclaim cop yesterday because he was scummy then and he's scummy now, so there's no reason we should believe his gambit.

hiphop, it's like 2% wifom. The other 98% is just pure ridiculousness.

And even the wifom is stretchy. Scum gambit of letting claimed cop SSBF live is this early in the game is VERY risky.

If you lynch llama and he flips town, then we know I'm insane and there is a

chance

SSBF is telling the truth and we have a cop.

Here it is again. A chance. Not confirmed like he now says.

God, why are we arguing with the scum about this. There is no way this whole "two cops, one's insane" or "AGM is lying" garbage is true. This is an easy, simple case of SCUM GETTING CAUGHT LYING.

Why the dramatic flip? You didn't believe it then, so why believe it now? You even said there was no way there could be two straight up cops.

Also you missed my point- Why Wicked over me?

And as for Wicked claiming. We are having a mass claim today. Why wait? Get everything on the table and no fake claiming in lylo. Simple logic and the correct play. There are only three people who have not claimed, and they better.

[AlmasterGM]

I didn't think charter was lying. I thought he was town. Him being scum makes two cops much more likely.

Wicked over you...have to think about that one.

[nopointinactingup]

First of all, I don't get this, "omg it HAS to be SpyreX by process of elimination" argument. The only people in my mind who are actually legit cleared are SSBF and nopoint. Crypto, hiphop, and Wicked could just as easily be scum as SpyreX.

And, from my perspective, I'm town and SpyreX has made a lot of arguments that made sense to me. And you can't just say "it's buddying." I logically agree with his thought process. This means 1) I'm not inclined to think he is scum because of arguments he's making, because those could just as easily apply to me and 2) He hasn't really done anything else particuarily scummy, so I have no reason to suspect him over anyone else.

I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: Wicked

Yesterday, he expressed STRONG feelings that llama ws town.

After Sando flipped scum I was 90% certain that llama was town. I think Almaster is insane if he is really a cop.

I have no idea why you guys are voting Llama, but I am 99% positive that he is town. @Everybody on the Llama wagon – Do you actually think Llama makes sense as one of Sando’s scumbuddies?

Both of these reads came DESPITE a cop claim to the contrary. To explain the reads, Wicked argued that I'm insane and SSBF is telling the truth. All becuase llama HAS to be town. What's odd, though, is that this was a COMPLETE reversal of his reads from the day prior.

I am getting a town read off of hiphop so far for reasons that podium mentioned.

I'm getting a bad feeling from each of the following:

llamaeatataco
Sando
Super Smash Bros. Fan

So, according to Wicked, because Sando flipped scum, suddenly:

1) I'm insane cop
2) SSBF is now a sane cop, not scum
3) And Llama is town.

Instead of the much simpler, more cohesive theory of

1) Llama is scum.

The switch here makes absolutely no sense ... but he somehow ended up being RIGHT. To me, this looks like he knew what the flips were going to be ahead of time and decided to base his reads accordingly ... without checking what his prior position was. Which is what lead to the logical incoherence.

Your case is logical to some extents, but why didn't you suspect any of me and hiphop because we were also saying Llama is definitely town yesterday as well. And though Wicked didn't pursue a Llama wagon, he was pursuing a Charter wagon, and what good would that do to him if he was scum? I'd expect him to pursue an SSBF wagon or some other wagon that wouldn't override the Llama wagon if he was really scum.

This is a good question. We have to remember that charter flipped vanilla Mafia, which is the equilvalent of a Mafia Goon. The other scum flip, Sando, was from Day 1, who was a Mafia Godfather. With AlmasterGM being roleblocked, I assume that the last scum is indeed a roleblocker. The roleblocking probably isn't town-intended either, further solidfying my theory that the last scum could be a roleblocker.

Well what I simply mean is
- Charter(scum) claimed to be roleblocked on Day 2 ( SSBF wasn't roleblocked on Day1 despite his claim ) --> There was actually no roleblocking in Day 1.
- AGM claimed to be roleblocked on Day 3 --> There is a roleblocker since AGM is confirmed town.
See the discrepancies. Right now I'm assuming the scum didn't roleblock on Day 1 because they didn't want Charter to be counterclaimed-being-roleblocked by SSBF and they want the suspicion to rise on SSBF because he was neither killed or roleblocked. However, I'm glad I was wrong and that plan failed.

And would people please stop using POE. This isn't a multiple-choice test, very little is confirmed, and there's NO POE. There's just "people who you think are town" and "people who you think are scum."

That's right, do an ISO on crypto to see for yourself that he's scum. Spyrex also had a bit of a connection with Sando/Charter, but his post looks way more town.

[hiphop]

BUT IF YOU INSIST, SSBF is definitely going down before charter,

because there is no way there are two straight-up cops.

Explain this for me.

And you better think about it.

[hiphop]

yet it still comes down to the fact, of why wasn't SSBF roleblocked day 1? Is he scum? not roleblocking or killing the cop for two nights? Something is fishy? Also llama wouldn't protect SSBF, being that llama was voting SSBF. So why not kill SSBF? I feel like throwing all crypto wagon out the window, and going after SSBF.

[nopointinactingup]

Hiphop, chill out on that possibility. That possibility should only be considered tomorrow if we have a mislynch. But right now, I think there are enough scummy people around to conclude that SSBF is the real sane cop. Besides, the scums probably didn't roleblock on Night 1 because they want to set up for Charter legit claim of being roleblock like I said.

See the discrepancies. Right now I'm assuming the scum didn't roleblock on Day 1 because they didn't want Charter to be counterclaimed-being-roleblocked by SSBF and they want the suspicion to rise on SSBF because he was neither killed or roleblocked. However, I'm glad I was wrong and that plan failed.

Charter was counterclaiming SSBF right? So if he was roleblocked while SSBF wasn't and both still lives then the town will be more inclined to believe SSBF is scum. That's there plan, to get the town to lynch SSBF.

[SpyreX]

yet it still comes down to the fact, of why wasn't SSBF roleblocked day 1? Is he scum? not roleblocking or killing the cop for two nights? Something is fishy? Also llama wouldn't protect SSBF, being that llama was voting SSBF. So why not kill SSBF? I feel like throwing all crypto wagon out the window, and going after SSBF.

No.

WHILE I agree you are probably right, it still makes sense to let him dig his own grave.

AS LONG AS AGM is alive and whomever the mystical third is when it gets to lylo lynches SSBF INSTEAD its fine.

Sweep up the rest as it goes.

However:

Spyrex- I don't understand. Why did you want them going down that path? Misunderstanding is not a scum tell. If it was, I would be scum for going after Podium on misunderstanding. Is it possible that your wording of that line leads to misunderstanding? Possible because 2 people went after it. Though I don't know why they waited 2 days before finally coming out with it.

Why didn't they mention it yesterday?

Exactly. It isn't a shocking revelation nor, really, can it be a misunderstanding. Of the two I'm waaay more eye raised at wicked the parrot versus SSBF over it but I can't see how that can be interpreted as anything but what it is.

----

I'm fairly easy mode with this though because I have two unbreakable tenets:

1.) AGM is town.
2.) Hiphop is town.

At this juncture with 90% chance of one scum left its a sweep. So, just sweep.

[nopointinactingup]

Spyrex, Iso Crypto.
Crypto, claim.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm a Vanilla Townie. I would like crypto to claim next.

[AlmasterGM]

Explain this for me.

1) I was operating under the assumption that charter was telling the truth. Yes, the post doesn't make it sound that way. But that was mentality at the time.

2) "Straight up" was supposed to mean sane. At the time, I didn't know I was insane - from my perspective, llama was scummy as hell and getting a guilty was a logical sane-cop move.

So the combination of charter being scum and me being insane makes that prior statement much less applicable.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

And would people please stop using POE. This isn't a multiple-choice test, very little is confirmed, and there's NO POE. There's just "people who you think are town" and "people who you think are scum."

PoE is another important Mafia tool that we should use to our advantage. You are confirmed townie, that's PoE already. PoE will lead us to the last scum if we use it well. Now we can't neglect scum hunting while we're at it, but PoE will still be helpful to town, especially with two scums down and most likely one more to go.

[hiphop]

I'm a Vanilla Townie. I would like crypto to claim next.

Thank you.

Spyrex and almaster have either of you iso'd crypto? Do so, and tell me what you think of him. Don't vote for him until we have all claims, but tell me what you think.

As for SSBF- Scum are taking a risky chance that he is alive. Every investigation he gets off, confirms town or scum. That fact that he was not killed last night sets alarms off in my head. Llama would not save him, so it is an easy kill, yet it wasn't done. Why?

[hiphop]

mod prod Crypto