Change the Mini Normal limit from 12 to 13.

[Mr. Flay]

Seems reasonable to me.

[Mr. Flay]

Further, I wouldn't mind the limit being raised to 13, except for the fact that every normal game crafted past that point would probably be 13 players. If that's going to be what's going to happen, and the que is just going to slow down even more, what's the point?

It's just not going to slow down THAT much - people are acting like we're doubling the size or something. 1 more player is approximately an 8% increase in size...

If it'll create a more balanced 'default' setup and a little more variety in playable setups, I think that's worth it. Hoopla's done some good legwork to show why 3:9 is pretty harsh on Towns.

[Mr. Flay]

30 players out of ~390. Stop misrepresenting things.

Average fill time for Mini Normals has been calculated, it's about

a week

5 days. Summers always slow down a bit.

[Mr. Flay]

Absolutely.

Oh, and I was wrong, calculated recent average to fill a Mini Normal (by Vi) was 5 days, not a week. I suspect the current mod is either suffering from a greater-than-usual lack of name recognition, or summer doldrums.

[Mr. Flay]

Aha, now we come to the crux of the matter.

I figured we could either leave 13 as an 'overlap' zone, or just grandfather in anybody already in the Large Queues.

[Mr. Flay]

Also, I think having three around gives rise to more connect-the-scum analysis, which is good.

Agreed.

[Mr. Flay]

and we can't call a 13 player game "mini" tbh.

Why can we call a 12-player game a mini, then? Why is 12.0000001 a bright line? Because we've played hundreds of them this way?

[Mr. Flay]

Super Swift Werewolves III had 13 I think, but that's the only one I can think of...

[Mr. Flay]

Night Starts with 12p are equivalent to a slightly-swingier 11p with Day Start... which is to say, they're going in the wrong direction if you want to preserve viability of 3-man mafia teams.

[Mr. Flay]

If you want a superfast game, just go play in the Open Queue. Most of what they play in there is 5p Vengeful and 6p Lovers and other games that you can be done with in a Day or two.

[Mr. Flay]

IMO there's just not time for a lot of role speculation in a 5-9p game. LyLo is so close already that you need to have some idea what you're up against from the beginning, even if it's just "these are the possible roles, no guarantee they're in the game).

That said, I've seen two 9p Mini Themes recently, and Zorblag ran Mini 993 as a 7p. 977 was a 9p. 879 was a 9p. 868 had 11p.

Probably what you're looking at is that most people don't

want

to run a game of less than 12 players after waiting all that time - your best bet is to talk to someone on the Mini Normal modding list and see if they'd be willing to run a smaller game, then /pre-in for that.

[Mr. Flay]

I don't understand what you're getting at, Zach. Minis are by far the most popular game-type on the site... shifting the 'new mods' from Mini Normal to Micro Normal Closed (or whatever) isn't likely to help with demand, since this is literally the first time I've seen an outcry for smaller games since I joined the site. It'll help slightly with Thok's Law, but I'm not at all sure that will overcome the increase in complexity and fracturing of demand. How will limits work with Micros? Could you be in 4 Minis and 7 Micros? Etc... like I said, you

can

run smaller games in the Mini Queues right now, they're just uncommon. I think that should tell us something about demand, especially from the mod side. The Open Queue (Zito's recent game aside, sorry dude) seems to handle that "I want to get through as fast as possible" side, and Mini Normal is for those who want to run their own game, within limits.

[Mr. Flay]

Open Queue used to be much shorter than Mini Normal - it's evened out in the last 6 months or so, and possibly even gotten slower.

As a totally non-scientific sample, Jahudo /inned to mod an Open on November 2nd, 2008 and he was put into rotation on February 4th, 2009. hohum /inned on February 7th, 2009 and got the game on April 24th, 2009. I don't have time to go through the whole queue backlog now...

[Mr. Flay]

Red Wire is discredited, that's the only one I'm certain of. Oh, and I don't recall if Dethy is still allowed.