Change the Mini Normal limit from 12 to 13.

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Change the Mini Normal limit from 12 to 13.

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:06 am

Post by Hoopla »

In the interest of developing the game of mafia, we need to be creating fair and balanced games for all factions - I don't think anyone will debate this point. From the humble beginnings of this forum, where the large possibilities of mafia were just starting to be explored, the game has slowly evolved to it's present form. Games that were once over in half a dozen pages in two weeks, now generate upwards of 1,000 posts, can last months and use an amazingly extensive catalogue of roles, modifiers and rules. Never before have we been investing so much time and effort into mafia games, and I think the quality of our games will continue to grow as the site gets larger.

One thing that is stunting this growth and creating balance problems for mods, is the awkwardly restrictive cap of 12 players in Mini Normals. To the casual Mini Normal player, it is forgivable to gloss over the concept of a possibly unbalanced game for your faction. Likewise for Mini Normal mods, how balanced your set-up truly is, is a difficult question to answer and most won't understand or forsee the subtle intricacies of certain role interactions and the amount of power needed to offset scum in a 12-player game. And for the most part, it is not their fault, as their knowledge of set-up design (likewise for reviewers), is based on a small sample of similar games they have played in or read. They soak up a small pocket of (usually recent) games to solidify their understanding of balance, and will produce games based on this ideology.

Obviously, the more experience playing and modding games, the more chance you have of producing a balanced set-up (coupled with the more experience your reviewers have). But because of our current queue system, the overwhelming majority of Mini Normal mods are first-time mods, which makes the cycle of unbalanced games hard to snap, if these newer players are largely emulating what they see in games run by first-time mods. A mandatory review committee (something hopefully happening soon) will go some way to improving the quality of Mini Normal set-ups we produce, but I think it will only be useful to a certain point; correcting wildly unbalanced games, providing support for confused newer mods and a gradual shift towards greater standardization of roles. My possibly controversial stance is the majority of Mini Normal games will still be unbalanced under the umbrella of 12 player set-ups, even with a slew of competant reviewers behind each game.

The problem with balancing games, is you can only account for what you think is wrong. If you see no problem overall, you cannot fix it. And I think the main problem is the lack of players acknowledging or even realising there is a problem, because the problem itself can only be spotted when you view the overall picture, rather than a handful of games. Here is the up-to-date win/loss statistics for closed 3:9 Mini Normal games;

152 Closed 3:9 Games completed

96 Mafia Wins
(63.2%)
54 Town Wins
(35.5%)
2 Draws
(1.3%)


This is considerably disturbing when you take into account, this is the most common 12 player set-up (by some way), and is the most biased toward scum. We are obviously doing something wrong here, and I will talk about my proposed solution in a minute, but I have some more numbers to show you first. Check out the last 50 completed 3:9 games;

Last 50 Closed 3:9 Games completed:

38 Mafia Wins
(76%)
11 Town Wins
(22%)
1 Draw
(2%)


Something equally is alarming is how comprehensively mafia is winning some of these games. Looking at those last 38 mafia wins, have a look how many scum the town actually manages to eliminate:

Last 38 Closed 3:9 Games won by Mafia:

14 Scum sweep games (0 scum lynches)
15 One scum lynch games (1 scum lynched)
9 Two scum lynch games (2 scum lynched)


Finally, of the last 50 completed Mini Normals of ANY TYPE, 3:9's have been run in 60% of those, which runs contrary to the overall make-up of 3:9's in Mini Normals, of about 45%. This shows the trend is slowly moving toward 3:9's as the default Mini Normal set-up, which is very scary when you see how easily and how often scum has been demolishing towns.




The main questions we need to ask ourselves is why is this happening, and what can we do to change this? Both these questions are very important as the change can't be made without accurately theorising and understand the why. Here are my positions;

The main awkwardness stems from the initial question of how many scum to put into a 12 player game. Two is too few for a 12 player game, unless you are running something close to mountainous, and three is too many without pumping the town with swingy powerroles to offset this extra scum. I think the biggest misconception is how difficult it actually is to lynch three scum, when the town only has three mislynches up it's sleeve. In a sense, it is almost a race of
'first to three mislynches/lynches'
for scum and town, and when you consider the Day 1 lynch usually hovers at about 20% for hitting scum, there is a strong chance the town will fall behind early and need to lynch at a 60% rate or higher for the rest of the game - something that relies very much on information generated from powerroles.

This is the main problem, as I see it - the low rate of scum lynches Day 1, which puts town behind early in a contest where teams are striving for the same goal (number of lynches/mislynches-wise). Whilst Day 1's are largely believed to be about generating information to improve lynch odds on future days, you now also have a higher ratio of scum to townies in the game, which in a sense, offsets some of the advantage town gains over scum - more information. And I have serious doubts that many towns can scumhunt at a 60% success rate without serious help from PR's.

Of course, with an even number of players starting the game, the amount of mislynches needed for scum
can
be increased with an accurate vig shot, or a blocking of a scum NK. If this does not happen, then no-lynch will likely have to take place at some point to minimise the pool of lynch candidates. If towns manage to catch this break - this gaining of an extra mislynch by way of a lucky PR, it evens the game much more, dropping the needed lynch rate back towards 50% or a little lower. But rather than towns trying to catch this break, or relying on an early scum lynch, wouldn't a more organic solution be to just add an extra townie?

An extra number from the beginning now changes the dynamics to four mislynches needed versus three scum lynches. It also serves to eliminate some swing, as a blocked scum kill at night won't give an extra mislynch to town, but will merely require it to no-lynch at some point. 13 player set-ups also have benefits beyond the realm of 3:9's too, as 3:1:8's need an extra townie for balance, as town wins rely on cross-kills. It also enables 2:2:9 set-ups, which are a far more attractive option than 2:2:8, as worst case scenarios can see towns lose after N2. An extra townie still keeps towns in it.

The only thing 12 player games have in their favour is familiarity, and the only reason 12 became the magic number, is because this is how many players the very first game used. It is has served it's use long enough, but it is completely arbitrary, and if we seriously want to improve the quality of games (namely balance), we need to rethink this structure, because it is naturally impeding balance of our most common set-ups (outside newbie games). Of course, thoughtful and creative mods can overcome the obstacles of the number 12, but it is very difficult to do right. Rather than individually nitpicking and focusing on each 12-player set-up, knowing it is a tricky number to work with, ticking up to 13 players means that the set-ups that don't come under as much scrutiny as this will still have a good chance of being balanced.

With the soon-to-be introduction of mandatory reviews for normal games, this to me feels like the perfect opportunity to review the base number of players mods build their set-ups around and introduce something new, that will go a long way to producing fairer games. If you've read this far, thank you! I hope I've been convincing, because this is something that should be talked about again.
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Post Post #10 (isolation #1) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:49 am

Post by Hoopla »

Faraday wrote:I'd probably never put a SK in a 12 player game, as I don't like 3:1:8/2:1:9 as set-ups for varying reasons. I think the extra player does give mods am lot more freedom, an extra vanilla could do a lot in most set-ups.
Nor would I. 3:1:8's are very heavily reliant on a cross-kill happening, because if the scum miss each other N1, or if the SK is dies before N2 without a mafia down, town has an uphill battle worse than what 3:9 is. When you look at the possible set-ups for 12 players and compare them to what they could be like with 13, it is mostly an improvement;

3:9 --> 3:10 -
Enhancement

This was the main set-up I was talking about in my post, because it is slowly becoming the default set-up of Mini Normals. One more townie is an obvious enhancement here.

3:1:8 --> 3:1:9 -
Enhancement

As I said just then, cross-kill reliance is not something to promote in set-ups - that extra townie eliminates
some
of that swing.

2:10 --> 2:11 -
Enhancement

Town only has a 20% win rate in these games, so the extra mislynch would be handy, although the consideration of this set-up should be minimal, because 2:10 mountainous games certainly haven't been in vogue for a long time.

2:2:8 --> 2:2:9 -
Enhancement

I covered this briefly, but the worst case scenario being pushed out an extra day is vital to make this set-up playable.

2:1:9 --> 2:1:10 -
Worse

This is the only loss for the 13 player set-up, though nobody is forcing mods to stick to 13 players. It's debatable whether 2:1:9's are worth persisting with, as they inherently favour towns;

2:1:9 Mini Normals where 3rd Party = SK (30 Games)

6 Mafia Wins

19 Town Wins

5 SK Wins


Two Mafia/One SK set-ups are probably more suited to 2:1:7's or 2:1:8's, I feel.
Netopalis wrote:A very compelling argument, I must say. I am a bit concerned, though, about the speed of the queue. It's slow to fill up as it is. I also think that part of the problem is the even number of players, which is never ideal in a setup. Perhaps we should experiment with some 11 or 9 player games (8-1-2, 9-2 or 7-2) and see what happens?
I agree, even numbers aren't so good. But if you drop down 1 or 3, the possibility of 3-scum games goes out the window, which I think is too important to lose. As for the speed of the queue, that might also be a downfall, but this can be solved by more emphasis on quicker deadlines or even bankable deadlines. It's not so elegant and requires a collective shift in conciousness, but I'd take a temporary hit in queue wait times if we can make fairer games overall.
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Post Post #12 (isolation #2) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:51 am

Post by Hoopla »

Leafsnail wrote:9:3 is 2 mislynches allowed, if no NKs are blocked. 2 mislynches allowed and 3 scum lynches required definately does seem wrong unless town has quite a bit of power...
It's three/three. You're only thinking about it from a town perspective.

Three mislynches and the town loses. Three scum lynches and the scum lose. You don't get two strikes in baseball if the third one means you're out.
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Post Post #42 (isolation #3) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:15 pm

Post by Hoopla »

MichelSableheart wrote:The fact that games have shifted from nightstart to daystart makes changing to an odd number the logical solution. The main problem with going to 13 is that balanced games with 2 mafia, no SK will virtually completely disappear from the site.
They've virtually disappeared from the site now. Since Mini 550, only one 2:10 set-up has been run, with a total of 10 overall in 331 games. I don't think this is a factor worth considering because it is such a small minority. If mods wish to run this set-up, they can still do it under the 13 player umbrella. But again, I think it's probably an improvement for towns to get an extra mislynch in 2:10's as they've only won those twice. Dropping down to 11 or 9 is possible with appropriate powerrole introductions for town, but going up to 13 doesn't restrict you in any way from running these set-ups. The truth is, most players just don't like to run them.
MichelSableheart wrote: I would prefer to see the limit dropped to 11 instead of raised to 13. It makes the mini normal queue slightly faster, it makes the average mini game run slightly faster, and it forces first time mods to run relatively simple setups.
Conversely, by dropping to 11 players you sign away any chance of playing in a balanced 3-scum game, which eliminates a lot of options for mods of Mini Normals. It's strange you're worried about losing 2-mafia set-ups, but aren't fazed about losing 3-mafia possibilities. If speed of the queue is your main argument, I debate it won't be much quicker, as interest in these games will drop a lot if they're going to merely be advanced newbie games.
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Post Post #43 (isolation #4) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:20 pm

Post by Hoopla »

Vel-Rahn Koon wrote:I think Hoopla's got a point here and I'm glad it's being discussed, I just don't know why it hasn't been thought of sooner. Several people have run EV calculations on Vanilla setups, and it's been shown that starting with an even number of players biases the game in the Mafia's favor.
Odd numbers are generally easier to balance, as they serve to eliminate some swing. A protected/blocked mafia kill at night doesn't alter the equation of mislynches needed for scum and scum lynches needed for town. It merely requires no-lynch to be taken at some point. When you use even numbers, a blocked/protected kill gives the town an extra lynch, which is a massive bonus for one correct night action. When your game is teetering on the edge of 3/4 mislynches, but only needs one action to tip it (or not tip it), it's very swingy.

Even if mods don't think about these consequences, it will be an improvement if we default the base set-up to 13 rather than 12, because the set-ups with less thought behind them will invariably have a greater chance of balance.
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Post Post #49 (isolation #5) » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:41 pm

Post by Hoopla »

I have doubts whether an 11 player cap would alleviate queue times, if anything I'd expect a decline in players playing in Little Italy because of games being boxed into 2-scum. The reason few players mod 11 player games is because they're restrictive. Balance-wise, it's difficult to have a vigilante or cop or masons in a 2:9 because they are far too over-powered/swingy for two scum.

Why do we need mods to run smaller games in Little Italy? The only real reason is a slight decrease in queue time, but I think that should be a secondary consideration, as the real reason we should be changing the 'default' base to 13 (or something else) is for quality and fairness reasons. I guess I'd favour incentives for mods to run smaller games, but I think a better solution in the long-run for fixing the wait time is focusing on collectively shifting meta toward swifter deadlines (especially Day 1).
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Post Post #73 (isolation #6) » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:46 am

Post by Hoopla »

mykonian wrote:
Vi wrote:*disagreement with the argument that it will make games take longer to fill (it's only one player, seriously, and a game that has a hard time getting to 12 players is already filling slowly anyway)
8,3% longer. If we take 5 days as average now (just for the easy maths), then on average it would take 10 hours more to fill
one
game. That means 2 day's longer for 5 games, etc.

that one player isn't insignificant.
Nor is a 35% win rate for towns. :wink:

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