Open 229 - Vengeful Mafia (Game Over)

[Fenchurch]

Mindgamer is missing from another game too, so I'm assuming it's real life, I'm not going to take it as an alignment tell.

I'm glad you're still reading, but in a 3-player game, you can't just wait for things to happen, it's up to you to ask questions, make comments, build cases as well. It's been a short game but we do still have some facts to go on. That said, your last post was good.

I'd like EGL to answer the question about the vengekill as well, then I'll say what I think.

[EGL]

I don't understand the point in speculating about the vengeful kill, but my guess would be because Smash wasn't on the wagon? I've heard before that a lot of times scum have one on the lynch wagon and one off the wagon. So he may have found it safer to go for the one off the wagon rather than misfire at someone on the wagon.

Alternatively, Smash had two posts before his death, one to accuse Robo (he was the first to jump on him) and the other to say he was waiting to hear from Octupis before putting Robo at L-1. So maybe Robo figured Smash knew he'd end up as town?

What's the purpose in speculating about the vengekill? We won't really know what Robo was thinking anyway until endgame when Robo comes back to tell us.

[EGL]

Octupis, why did you ask Robo to claim when you voted him? Do you think Mindgamer is the remaining scum?

This seems to assume that Octupis is town. And it seems like you're trying to paint me as the remaining scum.

1) Why do you assume Octupis to be town?

2) Why are you trying to paint me as scum?

[Fenchurch]

Octupis, why did you ask Robo to claim when you voted him? Do you think Mindgamer is the remaining scum?

This seems to assume that Octupis is town. And it seems like you're trying to paint me as the remaining scum.

Nope, I don't know that Octupis is town. At the end of Day 1 I was leaning towards Mindgamer as scum, but right now I'm not sure. I was trying to work out if Octupis is putting any thought towards working out who is scum, which could be a town-tell.

I don't understand the point in speculating about the vengeful kill . . .

I'm not sure, but I figured one of the players here knew that smashbro was scum before he was killed, and I thought asking that question might help me work out who it was. And maybe it has.

For what it's worth then, my thoughts on the venge-kill:
1. I was surprised when Robo flipped town.
2. I thought Mindgamer was the obvious choice for kill, because he dropped the quickhammer.
3. I was surprised again he picked smashbro, hadn't bothered considering him at that point, and my first reaction was that maybe Robo did just choose at random. Don't know yet whether he did, and maybe you're right about the one-on-one-off the wagon thing, although I've also seen a vengeful game where both scum were on.

[EGL]

Right. There's really no telling without Robo here, so that's why I don't understand speculation of it. But I think if I were in Robo's shoes, I would have found two things suspicious:

A) Smash took an opportunistic jump at accusing me;

B) Smash wasn't on the wagon, like he knew I was town and wanted to avoid suspicion for the vengekill.

But that's me. I'm usually more suspicious of the people who go out of their way to avoid the wagons on townies or defend townies, especially townies who act scummy, as Robo was doing.

[Fenchurch]

Octupis: have you heard of the one-on, one-off the wagon scum strategy for vengefuls before now?

EGL: do you think Mindgamer made a pro-town move casting the hammer vote?

[EGL]

The strategy doesn't necessarily apply to vengefuls specifically. More

small games in general.

I think it came up recently in a newbie game I was in, but it just seems like it would work here.

I think the hammer vote sort of worked out, because Robo hit scum with his Vengekill. It would have been nice to have a longer D1 to go on and to have some discussion on other players. I understand wanting to lynch someone you really think is scum and not let them get away, but I think the speedhammer was a dumb move because we get less information on D2 with such a short D1.

When I replaced in I was pretty suspicious of Octupis for putting Robo at L-1. It seemed like he was either setting up an overzealous townie to drop the hammer or maybe setting it up for smash to drop.

[EGL]

With the Robo flip and reading back over him, it looks like he was deliberately trying to draw the lynch so he could use his vengekill.

[Octupis]

Octupis: have you heard of the one-on, one-off the wagon scum strategy for vengefuls before now?

Not really. My experiance of mafia is limited, as this is my first Vengeful game so I can't really help out there.

With the Robo flip and reading back over him, it looks like he was deliberately trying to draw the lynch so he could use his vengekill.

Why do you think he would want that though?

I agree with EGL that day one was too short. Mindgamer's replacement doesn't help either, but I am wondering whether or not we are going to be able to garner enough reliable information from the game to make an informed decision when we vote? As far as I can tell, most of the discussion so far has been about the motives of people who died to quickly and didn't post enough. Therefore our cases are based too heavily on inferences and are going to be fairly weak.

When I put Robocopter at L-1, I was of the opinion that he would then claim and we could get information, I now realise that was naive in this sort of game. I even urged the other players not to be hasty, yet Mindgamer hammered while admitting that he had skimmed the game, he labelled every post of Robocopter as scummy and he said that he was as confident of a lynch as he has ever been. This seems very scummy to me (the only way he would have been so confident was if he was pruvy to information that others were not). I appreciate that you can't explain these actions EGL, but I am inclined at this point to suspect Mindgamer at least, and as a result, you too. I won't vote though, I have learnt my lesson about fast lynches.

[Fenchurch]

Octupis: have you heard of the one-on, one-off the wagon scum strategy for vengefuls before now?

Not really. My experiance of mafia is limited, as this is my first Vengeful game so I can't really help out there.

Have you read through any Vengeful games other than this one?

[Octupis]

Have you read through any Vengeful games other than this one?

No, I never considered it, but I shall have a browse since you mentioned it.

[EGL]

No. Mindgamer said he skimmed a few of Robo's OTHER games. Not this one. Please don't misrepresent information.

[Octupis]

No. Mindgamer said he skimmed a few of Robo's OTHER games. Not this one. Please don't misrepresent information.

Sorry, I read it quickly, my mistake. I got sort of a virus thing so I'm not all there.

[Fenchurch]

Well, I re-read today. There's not a lot, but then, it is only a small game. Key interactions I noticed.

#22 - smashbro says he'll wait for Octupis to respond before he votes.
#25 - Octupis responds with "Yes, I had an interview/induction day yesterday and then a party on the evening. Sorry about that." What was he saying "Yes" to? I can't see any question/speculation about his absence. Secret posts in scum-topic? Or just me leaping at shadows.
#27 - Robo random-votes Octupis
#32 - Octupis puts Robo at L-1, because his actions "don't make any sense", asks for a claim. Could also have been OMGUS to Robo's vote.
#34 - Mindgamer hammers Robo, because "it's as if he wants to be lynched" and "every single post he made is scummy".

Octupis thinks the venge-kill was made at random, this was my initial thought (town-tell?), but then it was also smashbro's.
EGL can see reasons for why Robo might have worked out smashbro was scum. Because EGL is scum too, and would have noticed these same things?
EGL (Mindgamer) cast the hammer knowing it would end the day and limit the posts in D1 (and the chance for town to lynch the godfather.) Scum generally benefit from a short game, so this could be a scum-tell.
Octupis keeps emphasising that he doesn't think it's time to lynch, that we shouldn't vote early, and that it we're not going to be able to identify scum reliably with so little information (I disagree, I don't think this game is more difficult than any other game). Doesn't seem that bothered about asking questions or finding out useful information though, which could be a scum-tell.

I can see a case for each of you, although I think I'm leaning one way a little more than the other. I don't like the game dragging, so I may be ready to vote soon.

[Fenchurch]

24h later and NO replies?? This game makes me sad...

[kunkstar7]

:: VoteCount 2x1 ::

EGL (0) -
Fenchurch (0) -
Octupis (0) -

Not Voting (3) -

EGL, Octupis, Fenchurch

With 3 Alive, it takes 2 to lynch.

EGL and Octupis have been prodded. Note that deadline is retracted for being pointless in a nightless game .

[EGL]

I said before I don't see the point in speculating about what Robo thought with his Vengekill. I think it's all WIFOM really. But I gave you my opinion because that's how I would have seen it. I'm always suspicious of people who try to avoid wagons, especially after a townie flip, and Smash always was the first to jump out to accuse Robo after his joke about fourth being most townie like. That looks like opportunistic scum making a mountain from a molehill but then he doesn't want to vote against him. I really don't know why nobody bothered to question smash in D1. But this is all after the fact and we know smash flipped scum. so...

I think the bit about the secret scum communication with Octupi is a stretch, especially with you highlighting the word "Yes" and smash still not hammering. I could see a case about Octupi putting Robo at L-1 to try to bait a townie speed hammer and your point about OMGUS after Robo votes Octupis. Although I'm not really enthralled with your introduction of a wave of WIFOM and it feels like you're trying to play divide and conquer with Octupis and myself. I'm not ready to vote yet but I think it's possible that there's Fenchurch scum and I don't think you've really had to do much answering in this game. I'm going to review your posts. I'd really appreciate it if nobody voted for anybody yet.

[Fenchurch]

I said before I don't see the point in speculating about what Robo thought with his Vengekill.

The point wasn't about finding out what Robo thought. The point was seeing what you two answered. Scum are often better at seeing their own mistakes than townies are.. You gave more reasons for smashbro to be scum, so that could be a scum-tell.

It's certainly not a rock-solid case on it's own; the biggest tell for you is Mindgamer casting the hammer vote. I've certainly seen vengefuls where scum deliberately plan to end the day as early as possible, to limit information for the town. You ask why we didn't question smashbro on D1? Because at that point, we didn't know Robo was town, and also because Mindgamer chose to end the day.

I'm happy to hold off voting for now, but with Octupis posting once every 2 days, I am not optimistic about getting much more information before deadline.

[Fenchurch]

I think the bit about the secret scum communication with Octupi is a stretch, especially with you highlighting the word "Yes" and smash still not hammering.

I think you misunderstood what I was thinking with this. Octupis seemed to be responding to the question "Are you busy at the moment?" or something like that, but nobody asked that in thread. I was wondering if his scum buddy might have asked it in the quicktopic. I do think it's a unlikely, but occasionally these kind of slips happen, so I pointed it out.

[Fenchurch]

Also, you say I'm playing divide and conquer, but actually I'm just being honest about the game as I see it: obviously for me, it's between you and Octupis.

[Octupis]

In post 21, you asked me for my thoughts. I was replying in post 25. I said yes because you had asked me for what I thought and I was telling you. Apart from that, you think my day one vote was OMGUS, yet you don't seem to consider the fact that I agreed with you that Robo's actions were genuinely scummy.

VOTE: Robocopter87

Who's with me?

DIE SCUM DIE

This seems a bit forthright for such an early stage. I was the one who was exercising restraint. You keep mentioning the fact that Mindgamer ended the day fairly early, but you were very persistent in your attack on Robocopter. I don't think this is hypocritical of me because I did vote for Robocopter but that was after he started using a random generator to pick his targets, I had grounds to vote for him, I think yours were weak and you rather shortened day one in your own way by not allowing Robocopter to speak much. You tunnelled him from the beginning of the game, until he started talking rubbish. I agree with EGL in this respect, I think you have been causing WIFOM since Smashbro's death with your discussion of Robocopter's motives in killing Smashbro. How did this help the town?

I have been content with EGL's play thus far. The only criticism that I would have, and I realise that this applies to me to, is that you have not been scum hunting per say, rather just answering the questions of Fenchurch. I know I am guilty of this too, but I look forward to your next post, although I am slightly concerned about the deadline.

I will hold off my vote for now too though.

[EGL]

The rules say that the game is nightless and the mafia can't kill except through lynching. I don't think there's a reason then to fear the deadline, is there?

Oops, didn't even think of that myself
Deadline has been retracted in light of this, as it is pointless.

[Fenchurch]

This seems a bit forthright for such an early stage. I was the one who was exercising restraint. You keep mentioning the fact that Mindgamer ended the day fairly early, but you were very persistent in your attack on Robocopter. I don't think this is hypocritical of me because I did vote for Robocopter but that was after he started using a random generator to pick his targets, I had grounds to vote for him, I think yours were weak and you rather shortened day one in your own way by not allowing Robocopter to speak much. You tunnelled him from the beginning of the game, until he started talking rubbish. I agree with EGL in this respect, I think you have been causing WIFOM since Smashbro's death with your discussion of Robocopter's motives in killing Smashbro. How did this help the town?

I've been

trying

to work out who the scum is, in the face of etreme apathy. It's not the same as night-kill speculation WIFOM: I've already said, the point of that question wasn't to work out Robo's motives, but to find out what the remaining players thought of smashbro's play, as the scum player might have viewed it differently.

I apologise for pushing so hard on the Robo lynch, I honestly thought I was on the right track. But all three of us voted Robocopter on Day 1, and two of us were town. Clearly it was possible to vote Robo with good intentions. But one of us was actually voting him because a mis-lynch would help them as scum. So I've been looking at Day 1 to try and find clues to work out whose vote seems most scummy. Or who seems like a partner to smashbro.

Given that both of you seem unconvinced by the points I raised, and one of you must be town, I'll accept that maybe they are rubbish. But I am doing my best here.

[Octupis]

I apologise for pushing so hard on the Robo lynch, I honestly thought I was on the right track. But all three of us voted Robocopter on Day 1, and two of us were town. Clearly it was possible to vote Robo with good intentions. But one of us was actually voting him because a mis-lynch would help them as scum. So I've been looking at Day 1 to try and find clues to work out whose vote seems most scummy. Or who seems like a partner to smashbro.

Given that both of you seem unconvinced by the points I raised, and one of you must be town, I'll accept that maybe they are rubbish. But I am doing my best here.

There is no need to apoligise. You say you honestly thought he was scum, but you came to that conclusion awfully quickly. That is all I am saying.

EGL, any progress on your review? The game is rather stalling because of it (considering you asked us not to vote in the mean time).

[Fenchurch]

There is no need to apoligise. You say you honestly thought he was scum, but you came to that conclusion awfully quickly. That is all I am saying.

Well my initial attacks on Robo were to largely see how he reacted to the pressure - and his responses seemed more and more scummy. And I started arguing as to why town shouldn't be afraid to lynch him, because I was expecting that to be an uphill battle. I didn't others to come round so quickly.

EGL, any progress on your review? The game is rather stalling because of it (considering you asked us not to vote in the mean time).

Agreed here.