Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[Xite91]

nope it was the day/night cycle for 3

[dramonic]

oh riiight, that's why my limbo cancelled.
So I guess the reason Pom is back in limbo is because my ability reactivated or something 0_o

I still dont have a QT <<

[Iecerint]

Cthulhu is the most famous of the Lovecraftian Great Old Ones. That's why everyone thought that GOO was a priori scummy before SX came out as Endless.

[Fate]

WHY DOES THIS FUCKING TOPIC HAVE A SUN ON IT.

WHAT'S SO GODDAMNED SPECIAL ABOUT IT.

WHAT WAGON ARE WE ON?

[totallynotmafia]

So why was he saying he could prove he wasn't Cthulhu....was it even suggested by anyone earlier?

Also S_B, now that my role has been confirmed I'm pretty sure I'm on scums NK list, so I'd prefer if you didn't make their job easier for them. Like I said before, it doesn't make sense for scum to have a doc given Tar's role, which is why I think VV must also be town, unless she is lying about her role.

[dramonic]

oh, I got my QT.
we may now carry on

[Xite91]

Fate - prolly cuz there's over 100 pages now?
seems like a legit reason

[AdumbroDeus]

So why was he saying he could prove he wasn't Cthulhu....was it even suggested by anyone earlier?

Also S_B, now that my role has been confirmed I'm pretty sure I'm on scums NK list, so I'd prefer if you didn't make their job easier for them. Like I said before, it doesn't make sense for scum to have a doc given Tar's role, which is why I think VV must also be town, unless she is lying about her role.

ooba mentioned it as a possibility, still it's suspiciously specific denial.


I have my own thoughts on this, but I'd prefer to wait until the two people I asked to talk about this commented, since DS suggested that they could prove his innocence via the method that he claimed.

[Iecerint]

I think the "prove not Cthulhu" bit, so far as he stated, was just like "I crumbed a different role in QT and someone non-scum (Plum) guessed my role." This is an awful argument that he's "not Cthulhu," (let alone "actually Dream," or whoever it was) because scum probably have fakeclaims.

If something is totally over my head here, please teach me.

[AdumbroDeus]

I'd prefer not to speculate on what they say before they actually have a chance to make a statement on this.


It's not necessarily that you're wrong, more that I'd prefer they commit to an answer before speculating, because if you speculate too hard you can easily give scum an out.



As an example, there was an unusual theme game I was playing on smashboards, it used a series of "elimination challenges" (basically, do a task if you do it wrong, or to be more accurate, wrong enough to be in the bottom [number to be killed in the challenge here], you get killed, these kills don't end the day btw). First challenge was speed confirming, last 4 to confirm died. One of my co-players loves meta, and ended up watching a player who is routinely inactive, he noticed that the player wasn't even on the site at all during the period where confirmation was possible. He ended up surmising that the player was mafia and that mafia was immune to the elimination challenges. I considered a few other possible reasons, but I shushed the town from discussing them so he couldn't just pick one as a hole to run into. The end result was he said that the player that watched him was lying, so we lynched him and caught scum day 1.


Moral of the story: When you have potential scum in your sights, better to press for the information that will give you a clear result, rather then attempting to figure it out on your own, that can result in them hiding in one of your potential scenarios.


I'd like to hear from

Plum and Nikanor

before we make a decision about DS.

[Faraday]

stuff here tomorrow.

[Mighty Orbots]

Also I can prove I am not Cthulhu
Nikanor and Plum were both in my QT on night 2. And before I told them who I was, Plum guessed who I was by QT flavor. Nikanor can confirm this and prove that I am indeed Dream amd Pom can tell Dramonic and confirm things there too. Orbits can confirm this too as I am sure plum probably told him somethings about me already

We can confirm that someone guessed you were Dream, sure. How this actually

proves

that you're Dream, or even proves that Dream is town, is mystifying. Role != alignment, we learned this lesson with Mr. Frankenstein already.

AdumbroDeus, Pomegranate subbed in for Plum. Pom is now stuck in Dramonic's personal little fantasy limbo world. So you'll be waiting for that answer for a while.

[Iecerint]

From Paul Atreides, too. And Set.

[AdumbroDeus]

Also I can prove I am not Cthulhu
Nikanor and Plum were both in my QT on night 2. And before I told them who I was, Plum guessed who I was by QT flavor. Nikanor can confirm this and prove that I am indeed Dream amd Pom can tell Dramonic and confirm things there too. Orbits can confirm this too as I am sure plum probably told him somethings about me already

We can confirm that someone guessed you were Dream, sure. How this actually

proves

that you're Dream, or even proves that Dream is town, is mystifying. Role != alignment, we learned this lesson with Mr. Frankenstein already.

AdumbroDeus, Pomegranate subbed in for Plum. Pom is now stuck in Dramonic's personal little fantasy limbo world. So you'll be waiting for that answer for a while.

Could you be more specific as to what led the person who guessed it to that conclusion?



Dram, you can still communicate with Pom, right? Could you get that info from her?

[ooba]

I think I was the first person to mention Cthulhu = cult in the thread. (At least over the last few pages .. There was a discussion on lovecraft at the beginning of the game - someone could have mentioned the name there)

Regarding worship,
a) If DS is today's lynch, I will advocate a Great Old Ones worship. (Tar also proposes this)
b) If not we stay away from GOO. My dislike for the egyptians has already been mentioned. I think a JCA worship should do nicely today.
Of course, many still have misgivings about SB and do not want to give her a unstoppable kill. So I propose she gives it to one of Tar\DTM (Tar seems to be paying more attention to the thread so he may be a better choice; And no tar, I am not proposing this so that it makes you double think your oobascum theories and not vig me).
And we worship JCA today. This also frees up Faraday to try and redirect scum to scum or catch someone in a lie.

JCA (24/36) = 66.6%

Iec - 2
Mina - 2
Nikanor - 1
DarkStalker - 1
AdumbroDeus - 1
Albatross - 1
Chronopie - 1
VV - 4
Katy - 0
MO - 2
Parama - 1
Snow - 1
Xite - 0
ooba - 4
dram - 2
Pom - 1

GOO (12/36) = 33.3%

Fate - 4
Tar - 2
DTM - 2
ABR - 2
Faraday - 2

If we lynch DS, just switch the label order. A third votes for JCA and rest vote for GOO.

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, most abilities aren't item based. I don't believe that yours should be. My current understanding of items is that each item can have each of it's abilites used once per day/night cycle. If two items have the same ability then each should be usable independently in that cycle. Further each player can use one item ability per day. There might or might not be other things that change this. I started with what looks like a different sort of item that I used Night two in order to use to of my one shot (non-item related abilities) but it's not at all clear that the item that I had was the same sort of beast that these are. If there are other items of that sort in the game I don't yet know how everything would most likely interact.

@Snow_Bunny, you should be even more sure that Tarhalindur is town at this point than you are of anyone else based just on the way events and claims have played out. I'd like you to pass your item to him, do it soon and announce it in thread. We should be able to protect him just fine until tomorrow when he can pass it to someone he is certain is town for the full unblockable/unredirectable town vig benefits I was talking about.

@dramonic, I don't trust you as you're not doing anything in the game thread to make me think that you're here to help the town. I absolutely want to be able to kill you if we decide that you're scum down the road. The best way to manage that is to take away your limbo ability in a way that should help the town (by killing someone you've put in Limbo that the town thinks is likely to be scum.) If you want to think of that as evilly taking away your power I can live with that perception on your part. I'm just trying to gain flexibility for the people I trust as town at this point and you don't make that list.

@AdumbroDeus, looking over what was said in my quick topic with Plum it seems that it was the title of the quicktopic that DarkStalker created that initally tipped her off that it was likely to be generated from someone in the Sandman universe. She didn't go into too many details about her thought process but I take it she is familiar with the works. She also guessed (as did I based on other things) that DarkStalker was responsible for the ability to night talk during Night Two. In any case I don't think that there's any good reason to doubt that people believed that DarkStalker was dream at this point. There's no reason at all for him to make up that part of his story.

@VasudeVa, when you say that worship abilities resolve last I take it you mean the sort of focus abilities that kick in when a player and their target both worship the same alignment?

@Albert B. Rampage, do you expect that you will be able to recruit a new player tonight given how worship has gone?

@ooba, Tarhalindur is a better recipient for Snow_Bunny's item than DTMaster because DTMaster currently has another item based on the lottery (unless I'm remembering that wrong) and couldn't use both.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mighty Orbots]

@Tarhalindur, given that ooba is confirming that totallynotmafia did have a doctor ability via item does that change your opinion on how likely he is to be scum given that your role needed to kill the godfather in a very limited amount of time or get removed from the game. I could see some form of limited unkillability on the part of the godfather that you and DTMaster were able to bypass with your nightkills but unless your shots were unstoppable (and you haven't indicated that they were) an explicitly protective role with no strings like a doctor seems overpowered for the mafia to have in terms of thwarting you in particular.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Albert B. Rampage]

@Albert B. Rampage, do you expect that you will be able to recruit a new player tonight given how worship has gone?

Yes I do.

[Iecerint]

So, did TNM start with his Dr. Item, or did he get it from someone?

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, by his claim it seems that he started with it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Iecerint]

Then ye innit AFAIK @ 2566.

[Nikanor]

Okay, I sent in my lovers entwined action on Tar and MO.
DarkStalker's QT name was indeed Shared Dream.
I'd like to take a look at tnm's item for myself.
I still like my vote on tnm.

[AdumbroDeus]

I have some commentary on this, but I wanna hear from Dram before I explain, less possible outs.

@Dram

I didn't bold this before, but I asked a question, could you ask Pom what made the previous player in her slot (plum) decide that it was Dream of the Endless' quicktopic.

[DarkStalker]

@Tarhalindur, while it is true that others brought up the idea of using the Census to test rajrhcpfreak's recruitment's alignment before DarkStalker did, he still went with the idea after I'd pointed out the flaws in it. Scum should very much have wanted to keep rajrhcpfreak around long enough to use that recruit even if it turned out that they ended up recruiting someone who was known almost instantly to be scum. Worst case scenario for scum is that it wastes the town's resources dealing with the recruit rather than putting a lynch or night kill to better use trying to find someone who isn't scum. Best case scenarios for scum are much better than that. Scum would at that point have either know that Albert B. Rampage was bluffing about his ability to use the census (most likely ) or that they could block him again (if they had the second night which is doubtful) so there wasn't any real danger to them of getting revealed by a Census. Everyone involved with pushing that idea looks bad (it was a poor idea regardless but the rajrhcpfreak flip makes it even more suspect) and I've got a stronger town read on Nikanor than I do DarkStalker for reasons that I plan to reveal to you (or DTMaster to be passed on to you) if Nikanor does put us in a quick topic together.

Actually you pointed out those flaws in Post 2375

@DarkStalker, I said it before but I'll say it again here. Leaving rajrhcpfreak alive on the grounds that after a recruit Albert B. Rampage can use his census ability to tell what the alignment of the replacement has to be is a poor idea both because it assumes that the census ability will work (it didn't on Night 2) and that we can trust Albert B. Rampage (which I'm not at all inclined to do at this time.) Albert B. Rampage being busy is probaby the true (he hasn't been on much anywhere on the boards) but it doesn't make him any more likely to be town than scum. Further, the appeal to emotion (when I pushed him on other indicators of him not planning on being about after this game he gave us Post 2333) makes it feel like he's using it as an excuse for why he's playing what in my experience is his scum game.

And pf's post after that said this about raj Post 2414

I didn't read what raj got from blaze til just now. I made a guess at Blaze being a single worshiper because it seemed to fit better with the math involving who worshiped who, that i gave in that post.

I have a general question for ABR and IEC.

Roles have something to the extent of you are endless or norse or whatever in claims. But do all roles say what story you are from, speciffically do all norse mention too human specifically in the role pm. If they do then yes Raj has made a slip and needs to die.

other thoughts there are alot of late joiners that are scum busing. but you all can deal with that after i die.

This in itself looks like a slip as Fate and Orbits have pointed out

@Beholder/kinetic
Can we get a

correct

vote count now?

I'm going to vote TNM or Raj once I am certain there are no shenanigans going on there, given last vote count looked like it was drunk

Given I did mention those flaws earlier but I realized you had a point and that those comments by raj were likly slips. I began to think he was scum with those slips and figured him getting a recruit would mean more scum and be bad. I asked for a vote count check given it appears Kinetic can't count or there were shenanigans. I wanted to make sure voting raj would really hit raj and not be a repeat of day 1. I had planned to vote in next post but day ended before that and I got sick as weekend approached and during weekend. I think I'm getting over disease now so at least that's good.

I made that comment at ABR for the belated info about his census because knowing that sooner would have made that lynch less held up. Too many people, me included, thought the census would gain us something there. And knowing it was useless, would have made scum die sooner I think.

##########

@DarkStalker, I've checked with the mod about the timing of daybreak Actions. They take place at the end of the night in which they're used, before the next day starts. They were blocked last night by my universal role block for example. I'd be surprised if the explanations you're giving for VasudeVa's targeting made sense. I do sort of think that his protection might work for the next day/night cycle but I think his targeting should take place the night he uses it.

Could you clarify what you didn't get about my theories? I think you confused me.

The theories stem from VasudeVa saying his action was simular to ooba's and Fate's. Ooba targeted DS(Nikanor) night 1 and his mimic went into effect for night 2. This is why IEC and

Nikanor

were put into a QT together instead of ooba and IEC. Thinking VasudeVa worked like ooba in targetting, who vasu

targeted night 1 would be protected night 2

. Which means if Vasu was

redirected night 1 it would effect night 2

. The redirecter didn't know what he was redirecting as Vasu didn't claim until day 2.

Just confirmed it. My worships resolve LAST apparently, even after the kills. So my protection works only at the next Day/Night phase, if it ever works.

N1- I targetted Spy. Before the worships could come in, he died so, yeah.

*not MY worships, but worships in general. >.>. So, that's the nature of my ability then. Target N(x), protect D(x+1), N(x+1) IF we worship the same faction.

I believe this confirms my assumptions. You understand where I got those ideas now or are we still not on same page?

The rational guess i mentioned earlier was off in the math though. It was something simular to thinking spyreX winding up dead moved, the action at vasu and or snow somehow.

@AdumbroDeus

any chance you heard anything from SpyreX about further redirections that could have been involved with Vasu's action missing SpyreX? And also plu already confirmed some of what i said here: Post 2532

##########

@ooba

why did I suspect orto could have been recruited by a cult? well its simple. DTmaster came into the game saying he was recruited. Since he said it blatantly it made him more likly to be town. Assuming all things equal or balance, that would mean orto was less likly to be town as he refused to say why he came into the game instead of saying "Oh I don't know why i came in". And well when I think recruit I think 2 things. Mason or cult and if DTmaster likly to be town and mason that would make orto the oposite or cult. I believe I pointed this out earlier and this was why I said all that.

ooba, When you hear the phrase "recruited" and someone refuses to talk about it, what comes to your mind?

Also I can prove I am not Cthulhu

Surprisingly you said "I am not Cthulhu" instead of "I am not cult".

Preview: You sure we cant pass the item again? Somebody confirm with the mod.

Yay I said it like that because I thought you were infering you had flavor reasons to believe cthulhu = cult. You mentioned cthulhu earlier I believe:

I think I was the first person to mention Cthulhu = cult in the thread. (At least over the last few pages .. There was a discussion on lovecraft at the beginning of the game - someone could have mentioned the name there)

Can you point me to this? I recall you mentioning it earlier and now I can't find it or the lovecraft discussion. Because I remembered you saying it but not how you said it. That's why I infered you had some flavor reason

I got to be somewhere in a little bit So I'll get to what IEC said in 2538 and stuff after that tomorrow.

[Katy]

Ugh, it was my birthday weekend and I haven't looked at the thread in a while. I'm confused on the DarkStalker stuff so I'm going to have to look back and see exactly what is going on with that. I was suspicious of DS in the past, but he was able to respond well and his later posting had me thinking he is town again. I feel like there is a weird hybrid affect where I really like one person's contributions to the games and not so much the other and after each person posts I vacillate on whether they are obvtown or superscummy.

I agree that Tar is almost certainly town. It would have to be a really weird game for him to be scum.

@Tarhalindur, given that ooba is confirming that totallynotmafia did have a doctor ability via item does that change your opinion on how likely he is to be scum given that your role needed to kill the godfather in a very limited amount of time or get removed from the game. I could see some form of limited unkillability on the part of the godfather that you and DTMaster were able to bypass with your nightkills but unless your shots were unstoppable (and you haven't indicated that they were) an explicitly protective role with no strings like a doctor seems overpowered for the mafia to have in terms of thwarting you in particular.

That assumes that mafia would know there was someone specifically gunning for the GF. If GF had investigation immunity, and if Tar had not claimed his role then mafia very well could have saved the doctor protect for whoever was ripest for a vig. It also depends on how the mod wanted to balance Tar/DTM's chances of success. With such a power-heavy game, the mod may have wanted it to be more difficult for the lynchers to succeed if he felt that would give town an advantage. I mean so far it seems like we're doing pretty well, so maybe it was meant to be difficult for them to succeed.

That said, I never saw much of a case on tnm in the first place, but a lot of stuff has happened since then. I intend to look at he and VV both. Sorry I've been slacking, the last couple of weeks have been really busy and it's been hard to keep track of all the details with this game.