Mini 1003 Mafia - Game Over

[youngminii]

You don't understand, you're acting very uncomfortable. It doesn't help us that you're fresh out of a newbie game, as your scumminess could just be you being a newbie. I mean that ends up as a WIFOM argument. How am I supposed to accuse you if you and other people are simply going to use the newbie card?

I don't think the newbie card should be able to be used. For one thing, I'm fresh out of a newbie game too but I don't go around dropping scumtells and saying I'm a noob.

Also, RVS is random voting stage which almost always happens at the start of a game. There are no leads hence people randomly vote for each other.

[Zang]

votecount-

chihuahua0 - 1 - (MagnaofIllusion) (L-6)
RetroAudio - 2 - (Tasky, Untrod Tripod) (L-5)
Lemon - 1 - (Mindgamer) (L-6)
nopointinactingup - 1 - (chihuahua0) (L-6)
Tasky - 2 - (RetroAudio, nopointinactingup) (L-5)
MagnaofIllusion - 1 - (youngminii) (L-6)

Not Voting: AWA, Lemon, Equinox, AClockworkMelon

7 to lynch

Deadline is July 20 at 9:00 pm EDT


MagnaofIllusion's V/LA is noted

[youngminii]

Oh I just noticed that my vote's still on Magna from RVS.

Unvote

VOTE: chihuahua0

I don't care if you're using the newbie card. I'll just use the 'this isn't a newbie game' card.

[Tasky]

Good point. I talk too much.

Way

too much.

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

Talkative and accusing.

I post too much

.

how can someone "post too much"?? more posting is

always

better than less posting (more info is

always

better than less info)...

1> Are you Scum?

This is a test question, and almost any answer I use here will be used against me. No answer.

why don't you just say no? saying "this is a test question" is a really scum-tell IMO... it's like you saying "I'm not going to fall for your trick", which only scum will do, since a townie will just go for the truth and answer as honestly as possible
in my experience (which, I admit, consists only of real-life-mafia) this almost always was true, I myself got caught quite often by that argument

2> How do you hope to find scums?

The moment someone slips up and everyone piles onto him/her.

so you rely on others to spot the scum? what would be your contribution to that scum-catch?

3> How do you feel about Magma's attack on you?

I need to go back a little bit to look at it, but I have a gut feeling that he might be using me.

explain "using me" a little better please...

so I'm going to put a

very big FoS: chihuahua0

PS: I really don't care about the newbie-argument

PPS: another EDIT, just noted another quotation error in post 115

***********start correction***********

Tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing

Too inquiring

is synonymous to

obvious pointless defensiveness

if it is used to point out

Day 1:

RVS

behaviour. Now how is it a bad thing? hmm.

how can "inquiring" be synonymous to "pointless defensiveness"?? really don't get that point

could you please explain this point a little better?

I answered the question with a smile on my face, without thinking of any better term to describe it. You may ask Mindgamer about how I really play, lol.

why don't you tell me... what do you fear in telling us your playing style?
***********end correction************

[youngminii]

^ Big scumtell. You didn't give any new information, all you did was recycle information and jump on an already existing bandwagon.

FoS: Tasky

Still keeping my chihuahua vote though.

[Tasky]

^ Big scumtell. You didn't give any new information, all you did was recycle information and jump on an already existing bandwagon.

FoS: Tasky

Still keeping my chihuahua vote though.

have you read the game thread? you really should go and find some evidence for what you are saying...

[Tasky]

I really think a) should be answered, at least for interest... I just want to hear the truth... you like playing scum, tell it; you like playing townie, say it...

Regardless of what you want to hear what scum-hunting purpose does it serve? You aren’t going to get any useable evidence formt he responses. It’s simply busywork.

I don't really agree with that... e.g. I think that someone is more likely to be passive if they are playing a role they dislike...
knowing ones favorite role can turn useful later on... see it as a kind of investment, everybody invests 10 seconds of their time to tell us their favorite role and maybe we get to use that information later in the game... it's probable that it won't serve any purpose, but it could be helpful later, so it's definitely an investment that's somehow favorable

[AClockworkMelon]

I'm going to mimic Minii's vote on Chihuahua and his FOS on Tasky.

VOTE: Chihuahua

[RetroAudio]

Tasky, you are attacking players based on their answers to the question, specially those who has thinks you are a scum. Don't you think this is something?

why don't you just say no?

Because the question is basically stupid and nonsense. You should know that.

what would be your contribution to that scum-catch?

Good point, Tasky.

***********this correction***********

Tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing

Too inquiring

is synonymous to

obvious pointless defensiveness

if it is used to point out

Day 1:

RVS

behaviour. Now how is it a bad thing? hmm.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2346220
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2346256
And that happened during the RVS.

could you please explain this point a little better?

why don't you tell me... what do you fear in telling us your playing style?

I

already

answered this.
***********end correction************

[AClockworkMelon]

Tasky, you are attacking players based on their answers to the question, specially those who has thinks you are a scum. Don't you think this is something?

why don't you just say no?

Because the question is basically stupid and nonsense. You should know that.

But it being "stupid nonsense" isn't what you used to avoid answering the question earlier:

1> Are you Scum?

This is a test question, and almost any answer I use here will be used against me. No answer.

I'll ask again: If you had said "no", how could we have used that against you?

[RetroAudio]

answer what?

[AClockworkMelon]

[Tasky]

Tasky, you are attacking players based on their answers to the question, specially those who has thinks you are a scum. Don't you think this is something?

I attacked persons (you) for dodging questions repeatedly... and for other stuff... if you really like to confute what I said, take my posts, quote them piece by piece and confute... you are basically trying to defy logical arguments (well, I think they are logical, but prove me wrong if you can) based on specific quotes with a very vague statement; sorry, but it's not enough for me

why don't you just say no?

Because the question is basically stupid and nonsense. You should know that.

I still find the "This is a test question"-thing extremely scummy... I already explained why

***********this correction***********

Tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing

Too inquiring

is synonymous to

obvious pointless defensiveness

if it is used to point out

Day 1:

RVS

behaviour. Now how is it a bad thing? hmm.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2346220
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2346256
And that happened during the RVS.

I was asking questions, trying to put pressure, try to get info... how can getting info be bad?

could you please explain this point a little better?

why don't you tell me... what do you fear in telling us your playing style?

I

already

answered this.
***********end correction************

don't know if you noted it, but that wasn't a new post, just a correction of a previous one where I made a quotation-error

[RetroAudio]

okey.

[Lemon]

I think I'll come to the defense of Chi to the newbie card. Firstly, we're SCUMHUNTING. His mistakes scream more newb than scum. Attacking him would only rid him from the game and prove useless to the town in the long run.

You seem to be confused. Newbie is not a game alignment. Scum is. I don’t give any leeway to players outside of the Road to Rome for what you are calling “newb” play. The place for that is the Newbie cue. Once you venture from Newbie’s friendly confines I assume you are confident in your ability to play the game. Mistakes made are mistakes made and worthy of examination.

I’ll state it plainly once again … bad play is bad play. You may blindly believe that it can only be attributed to Newb Town play if you wish. I will not.

Please explain what you mean by “attacking him would only rid him from the game”. Do you mean he’s likely to replace out? Do you mean by lynch? In either case how do you assume it will prove ‘useless’ to Town in the long run. Are you stating you know Chi’s alignment?

What I am saying is that kill him through lynch. Perhaps he may lead us astray with his newbiness, but more likely, it intuitively feels more like newb Townie mistakes than anything. Are you going to policy kill him on this basis?

Secondly, I feel like you're acting quite scummy yourself. Taking it upon yourself to cement a pro-town position among us all, by actively posting.

So you find it scummy to actively post? Your basis for Mafia theory is certainly different than mine

So Mafia can't act incredibly or out of the ordinarily active to trick the town?

In addition, your spreading of blame that almost nears contempt of other players seems to further this idea. In your posts you have attacked Chihuahua, Tripod, Tasky, Clockwork and erratically attacked RetroAudio.

I’m going to address concerns and question players as much as I like. It’s called scum-hunting. Your use of loaded phrases like “spreading of blame that almost nears contempt” is noted. I’m going to ‘attack’ every player in the game. I’m looking for scum. Prodding their thinking, motivations and posts is how I do that.

Please back up your statement that I “erratically” attacked RA. I see nothing erratic at all. If anything it appears another attempt by yourself to use loaded phrasing.

At this point could you get the cat to walk across your keyboard. That would likely be better content than you’ve so far presented.

Because that is a terribly reasonable reply to a post which probably signifies that they're busy.

Then when we add to this my first part, Mafia know who their enemies are, a full on attack towards Chihuahua, who obviously acts more newb than scum seems suspicious.

Funny that you state that the Mafia know who their enemies are. This post by you, if anything, looks like a Chainsaw defence for Chi.

I see it as instead of possibly getting rid of a scum, or focusing our suspicions elsewhere, we focus on his newb play.

Chi definitely seems more careless and newblike than a mafia. Unless this is a new mafia strategy, he feels more newb town, referencing the wiki.

Look up Razorback in Newbie 914 if you want a perfect example of why newb-style play does not indicate alignment. And the Wiki is not a bible of Mafia truth. It’s a handy reference. Appealing to the Wiki’s authority is not Pro-Town.

I agree with all those statements, yet are you going to say that his actions also simultaneously look incredibly mafia like? We can run on a hunch that his newb-style play is mafia, but that isn't a really great assumption.

It may be effective scumhunting, but it is also effective in diverting attention from yourself. And he probably isn't the first to act really pro-town to shake off suspicions. Obviously pro-town is usually for the town, but Magna's type of pro-town pushing seems to be doing is spreading suspicions and attention elsewhere, diverting them from himself.

If it was effective at diverting attention you wouldn’t be making your poorly reasoned attack, would you? If you can come up with some reasonable support for your assetion that my play is scummy please bring it up and I’ll address them. Otherwise your “Too Town for Town” argument is just a WIFOM exercise.

I look forward to your future attacks on other Pro-Town players

I will leave it at suspicion. Extremely pro-town play can be both pro-town and mafia. I would rather leave it at more a, don't trust you completely stage. Your arguments are cogent, and I respect that, but with caution.


@nopointinactingup & youngminii - Then do you think that we should policy lynch Chi for being a newb?

[youngminii]

It's not a policy lynch. I honestly believe Chi's posts are either scummy or newbie. Now this is

not

a newbie game, hence I'm inclined to believe his posts are scummy. So yes, I think we should lynch Chi.

[Lemon]

It's not a policy lynch. I honestly believe Chi's posts are either scummy or newbie. Now this is

not

a newbie game, hence I'm inclined to believe his posts are scummy. So yes, I think we should lynch Chi.

Then I guess we can invoke something we call "metagaming".

chihuahua0 "Joined: Jun 16 2010", so about 2 weeks ago, so probably hasn't even went one day phase in his newbie game and also has "Total posts: 44" so that also signifies he hasn't played a lot of games. In fact, most of his posts aren't in games, but in discussion, or other games threads (Mish Mash).

So just because we're not in a newbie game, but he makes newbie mistakes, we should lynch and waste our lynch if he isn't mafia. His mistakes can be attributed to newbiness or being scum, it seems more likely the former at the moment.

[Tasky]

It's not a policy lynch. I honestly believe Chi's posts are either scummy or newbie. Now this is

not

a newbie game, hence I'm inclined to believe his posts are scummy. So yes, I think we should lynch Chi.

Then I guess we can invoke something we call "metagaming".

chihuahua0 "Joined: Jun 16 2010", so about 2 weeks ago, so probably hasn't even went one day phase in his newbie game and also has "Total posts: 44" so that also signifies he hasn't played a lot of games. In fact, most of his posts aren't in games, but in discussion, or other games threads (Mish Mash).

So just because we're not in a newbie game, but he makes newbie mistakes, we should lynch and waste our lynch if he isn't mafia. His mistakes can be attributed to newbiness or being scum, it seems more likely the former at the moment.

let's assume for a moment chihuahua really is a newbie (everyone can pretend to be one, so the other will go easier on him/her)... being a newbie does not exclude that he is mafia...
the thing is: if we go to lynch chihuahua0 because we think he is scum, worst case scenario we lynch an useless newbie townie
if however we don't lynch him, but go for a more experienced player, worst case scenario we lynch a really useful experienced townie...

so, in order to not vote chihuahua0 the odds must really strongly be that another player is scum, otherwise the risk just isn't worth it...

since I think RetroAudio and chihuahua0 are both scum, I yet have to chose whom I'd want to lynch first...
the only thing that could maybe save chihuahua in my opinion is that being a newbie (still assuming he is) he is more likely to give away his scum-fellow (since I assume that for 12 persons there should be at least 3 mafiosi), so that I actually suggest to lynch RetroAudio the first day...

still, I really think we should lynch so early (in case someone was thinking of that now), it would just deprive us precious discussion-time we could use to find scum...

[Equinox]

A quick comment before I go back into the pile of stuff I'm reading (which includes the catch-up in this game...):

From a skim, the wagon and the suspicions I see being flung around are mostly on active players -- chihuahua0, RetroAudio, Tasky -- with little to no attention to lurkers or active lurkers. Active players say more things than lurkers, which makes it easier for everyone else to pick apart posts. Don't forget the lurkers or the people riding coattails.

Further, I'm getting the feeling that the chihuahua0 wagon is scum-driven. He's a ridiculously easy target, and I'm seeing some signs of a policy lynch going on. That doesn't sit well with me.

This post was mostly based on gut feelings I got while skimming yesterday's and today's posts. I'll have actual logic and evidence when I'm done with the catch-up post.

[Mindgamer]

@ Chihuahua0 case
I think we shouldn't use any 'newbie passes' at all. This basically allows any possible slips in the future to be covered with more newbies card. However, I don't find Chihuahua0's posts that remarkable at all. I'm more interested in the wagon that has been formed. In particular Taska's response. A 'very big FoS'. I don't know what that is, but I assume it has near the same weight as a vote. Taska, at the start of the game you said you would stop your wishy-washy voting once decent discussion has started. But here I see you voting RetroAudio for ignoring questions and just one post later you give your very big FoS. I don't like it one bit.

d) what do you think about bandwagons?

I'd rather people vote for someone because they think they're scum than because they want to follow a trend.

Cool. But the question is what you think of bandwagons, not what you think is optimal play.

2> How do you hope to find scums?

The moment someone slips up and everyone piles onto him/her.

So you're just going to sit back and hope the scum present themselves to you? No. Scumhunting is about taking initiative.

1> Are you Scum?

This is a test question, and almost any answer I use here will be used against me. No answer.

This is not the Weakest Link. We are trying to figure out your alignment here. Always answer questions.

I don't really agree with that... e.g. I think that someone is more likely to be passive if they are playing a role they dislike...
knowing ones favorite role can turn useful later on... see it as a kind of investment, everybody invests 10 seconds of their time to tell us their favorite role and maybe we get to use that information later in the game... it's probable that it won't serve any purpose, but it could be helpful later, so it's definitely an investment that's somehow favorable

That's a good thought actually. But why did you explain that before everyone had claimed? Now it's useless.

From a skim, the wagon and the suspicions I see being flung around are mostly on active players -- chihuahua0, RetroAudio, Tasky -- with little to no attention to lurkers or active lurkers. Active players say more things than lurkers, which makes it easier for everyone else to pick apart posts. Don't forget the lurkers or the people riding coattails.

You do realise you're a lurker yourself right? And in literary every post you're talking about needing a catchup or running short on time. Take your own advice to heart.

---

I played over 9000 marathon games with Youngminii yesterday and I've noticed that he likes to joke around when he's town and he's usually serious when he's scum. So far Youngminii has posted in a pretty serious manner. Marathon games aren't regular games but it's worth a mention.
From what I've seen from MagnaofIllusion so far, I think he's town. He's agressive, asks questions and forces people to take positions. I like it.

[Tasky]

@ Chihuahua0 case
I think we shouldn't use any 'newbie passes' at all. This basically allows any possible slips in the future to be covered with more newbies card. However, I don't find Chihuahua0's posts that remarkable at all. I'm more interested in the wagon that has been formed. In particular Taska's response. A 'very big FoS'. I don't know what that is, but I assume it has near the same weight as a vote. Taska, at the start of the game you said you would stop your wishy-washy voting once decent discussion has started. But here I see you voting RetroAudio for ignoring questions and just one post later you give your very big FoS. I don't like it one bit.

I think both RetroAudio and chihuahua0 are scum, so I voted for one and put a big FoS (=Finger of Suspicion) on the other... what is so wishy washy about that?

I don't really agree with that... e.g. I think that someone is more likely to be passive if they are playing a role they dislike...
knowing ones favorite role can turn useful later on... see it as a kind of investment, everybody invests 10 seconds of their time to tell us their favorite role and maybe we get to use that information later in the game... it's probable that it won't serve any purpose, but it could be helpful later, so it's definitely an investment that's somehow favorable

That's a good thought actually. But why did you explain that before everyone had claimed? Now it's useless.

please explain that one better...
why exactly is that useless now? How could it have been used better earlier?

PS: my name is Tasky, not Taska...

[Equinox]

The "ANSWER MY QUESTIONS OR DIE" Wall of Text

All hail post numbers!

Basically, this wall is for questions. I realize questions may be missed because this is a large post, but... don't purposefully ignore the questions within. I'll just ask you again. And again. >_>

---

Was there a reason Lemon questioned Zang in post 27?

I don't see the rhetoric Untrod Tripod claims to see from Tasky. I'm 99% serious and 1% joking about that.

I don't understand this vote. Tasky fears bandwagons... why?

but even if used later in the game, how exactly is the mafia supposed to use it? by starting a bandwagon from it, just so I can change target soon after? or by accusing me to be scum try to have me lynched, but by then you know already that it's just my playing style so that won't work out either?

Are you planning on continuing this practice later in the game, when hard stances are more critical to town's win condition? I thought you said this vote-hopping was an early game tactic.

But now we have three people at L-5. It's about a 1/4 chance at least one of them are scum.

Clarification of how you got to this result, please. I don't give points to students who don't show their work.

@Mindgamer - It may be effective scumhunting, but it is also effective in diverting attention from yourself. And he probably isn't the first to act really pro-town to shake off suspicions. Obviously pro-town is usually for the town, but Magna's type of pro-town pushing seems to be doing is spreading suspicions and attention elsewhere, diverting them from himself.

What I don't understand is how else MagnaofIllusion is supposed to do it. His attacks appear to me to be well-rounded, which is a good thing to do in Day 1 as it spreads attention across the player list and prevents tunneling. I also don't see how he is "diverting [attention and suspicions] from himself." Please explain that last part.

d) what do you think about bandwagons?

If the person is condemned as scummy, yes. Policy vote wagons are fine too.

No comment on pressure bandwagons? Would you only join bandwagons on people who are "condemned as scummy"?

3> How do you feel about Magma's attack on you?

I need to go back a little bit to look at it, but I have a gut feeling that he might be using me.

How is MagnaofIllusion "using" you?

I see it as instead of possibly getting rid of a scum, or focusing our suspicions elsewhere, we focus on his newb play.

I may agree with your defense of chihuahua0 (more later), but this is a poor response to MagnaofIllusion's accusation that you are chainsaw defending. Post more evidence behind your defense of chihuahua0, or I start wondering why you so firmly believe he is town.

[Equinox]

Another wall to follow my wall of questions.

You do realise you're a lurker yourself right? And in literary every post you're talking about needing a catchup or running short on time. Take your own advice to heart.

Yes. I really did run short on time, though; I finally got a free day today to tear through the game. Now that I'm caught up, I hope I won't be so inactive again. No promises, of course... because seeing 3-4 new pages in a 24-hour span is rather intimidating.

---

First, I'm going to address something I saw while browsing past the RVS posts:

Throwing votes on people with little to no reasoning is suspicious.

This goes into theory discussion, so I'll only mention this briefly. Sometimes, there are reasons behind votes that cannot be said lest the purpose of the vote be ruined. Unless it's dangerously close to a hammer, wait for the voted player to respond first before jumping on an apparently unreasoned vote.

Of course, consistently voting for no reason is suspicious; it's just that individual votes may not be, depending on circumstances.

---

The argument between RetroAudio and Tasky made me go @_@. I don't process those kinds of arguments very well, so what I'll do instead of reading through those posts again -- because I'll just zone out if I do -- is keep an eye on both of them. Stance-wise, I slightly lean town on Tasky and read null on RetroAudio.

---

Anyone notice that AClockworkMelon is

actively

lurking? He is either riding other players' coattails (refer to posts where he quotes) or making short comments that don't betray any of his thoughts regarding players. Further, he jumped on a chihuahua0 wagon without his own reasoning; he basically cites youngminii and even copies youngminii's FoS. No, no, no.

AClockworkMelon is scum. Lynch him.

Vote: AClockworkMelon

I realize this is a short case, so if anyone wants a post-by-post analysis, I'll willingly deliver. I'm just not making one now because I think you guys will be quite sick of walls by the time you get to this one. (Not to mention I'm sick of typing them. >_<)

[Equinox]

I just remembered that I promised to talk more about chihuahua0 somewhere in my first wall, so I'll go ahead and do this before I hop off elsewhere to rest my boggled brain.

Yes, there is a chance that chihuahua0 is scum. However, I do not believe he is scum because he's been consistent; further, he admitted to anti-town playing style in RQS, and I have reason to believe those responses were honest. I may reconsider if something odd comes about later in the game, but for now I am reading null on him. (Null because I am not going to discount the fact that he hasn't been the most pro-town player around.)

The other reason I don't believe he is scum is the current wagon on him. Easy target is easy.

[Equinox]

Hmm... I just spotted something.

chihuahua0, you voted for nopointinactingup way back in post 62 as a random vote, and you haven't moved your vote since. Who do you think is scum?