Mini 1003 Mafia - Game Over

[Zang]

Votecount-

Mindgamer - 2 - (Tasky, Lemon) (L-5)
Lemon - 2 - (Mindgamer, MagnaofIlusion) (L-5)
nopointinactingup - 2 - (Equinox, chihuahua0) (L-5)
youngminii - 1 - (RetroAudio) (L-6)
Tasky - 1 - (nopointinactingup) (L-6)
MagnaofIlusion - 1 - (youngminii) (L-6)

Not Voting: AWA, AClockworkMelon, Untrod Tripod

Deadline is July 20 at 9:00 pm EDT

[Lemon]

Lemon - Any point in pointing out the mod's spelling mistakes and non-use of green text?

I was re-reading the post and noticed the error. Then I was looking at the post and couldn't differentiate from a person or the mod. He's a new mod, so helping slightly doesn't seem that bad

As for deciding who to lynch, perhaps a random question stage? Then we pick at each other from that.

[Equinox]

Four pages in under 24 hours? You guys are really active.

I need to catch up, and from a skim I see stuff I can pick at, so...

Unvote

Also, I'll be out for the day tomorrow, so I won't be contributing until Friday at least.

[Equinox]

All right, what was with all the vote switching? I sort of understand when you say it's a Day 1 tactic, Tasky, but, really, there are better ways to get discussion started than throwing votes around like confetti. That kind of vote switching means that, when it's time for you to truly pressure someone, your vote has no weight; you've shown that you're willing to change on a whim.

Not to mention the rapid switching makes it look like you're something-that-isn't-town trying to find out what sticks. Heck, that was the first reaction I got when I looked at your voting pattern. :/

chihuahua0, I have no idea why you voted nopointinactingup. For one thing, nopointinactingup voted Tasky before you changed votes, so your voting reason is moot. Neither AClockworkMelon nor AWA have voted, either, yet you did not address them in your post.

Nothing else stands out for me at the moment, except perhaps for AClockworkMelon's lack of a vote despite all the RVS votes being tossed around. I'd ask questions and poke people, but I'm running short on time at the moment, so that will have to wait until after my V/LA.

[AClockworkMelon]

Not to mention the rapid switching makes it look like you're something-that-isn't-town trying to find out what sticks. Heck, that was the first reaction I got when I looked at your voting pattern.

That's the feeling I had.

[chihuahua0]

chihuahua0, I have no idea why you voted nopointinactingup. For one thing, nopointinactingup voted Tasky before you changed votes, so your voting reason is moot. Neither AClockworkMelon nor AWA have voted, either, yet you did not address them in your post.

Sorry, that was a mistake on my part.

But now we have three people at L-5. It's

about

a 1/4 chance at least one of them are scum.

[nopointinactingup]

Chihuahua's argument is funny.

[chihuahua0]

Chihuahua's argument is funny.

My arguments always seem funny.


Now let me try to restate this:

The chances that at least one of the scum had been voting on right now. We need to focus on those people's agurments (including me, unfortunately for

me

).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Be careful, this is my first game out of the newbie forums.

Why should we need to be careful? Mafia in this forum is no different from Mafia in the Newbie forum on a general basis, differences in roles and flavour aside.

I think it's a scumtell if a person is the 3rd or 4th person to vote. However, hammering is a towntell (according to the wiki and second-hand accounts).

Reliance on the ‘Wiki’ as anything other than a useful reference is bad Town play, and borders on being an Appeal to Authority. Vote position isn’t inherently scummy and hammering isn’t inherently a Town-tell. If you are scum please continue to play as dictated by the ‘Wiki’, it will make Town’s job easier. If you are Town don’t and look at the context and potential motiviations for player actions.

Sorry

Why did you feel the need to apologize to ACM? His opinion is not ‘black letter law’ as to how Mafia should be played.

But now we have three people at L-5. It's about a 1/4 chance at least one of them are scum.
The chances that at least one of the scum had been voting on right now. We need to focus on those people's agurments (including me, unfortunately for me).

Are you saying we should be looking only at the L-5 players? Because I’d prefer that we focus on people’s player regardless of their current vote status.

And your acknowledgement that your arguments have been bad (which is very true IMO) sets off my scumdar.

UNVOTE: Lemon
VOTE: Chihu

but I do belive that bandwagoning is more the thing a mafioso does when game progresses, since then, losing the option of hiding behind randomness and initial disinformation, he has to do something... and the last remaining thing (except lurking...) which does not imply own, new, fresh thoughts is bandwagoning

Why can’t scum provide ‘new, fresh thoughts’?

ok, uh, I was kind of kidding about voting for Tasky before, but I think the "bandwaggon-starters-are-evil" approach is kind of aggressive so I'm gonna keep my vote where it is. Not because I think it's scummy, exactly, but aggressive voting kind of rubs me the wrong way

You have explicitly transitioned your vote from a RVS vote to something serious with this post. Do you make a habit of voting for things that annoy you which you admit are not scummy?

It's just that, in my experience,

it's bad to have someone who votes aggressively, because they're likely to really latch onto a target and ignore scumtells from other people.

How do I know? That's exactly the way I used to play. I'd like to say _explicitly_ that I don't think aggressive voting is scumtell so I'm not accusing him of being mafia (though it could be SK or something). I'm just saying it rubs me the wrong way.

Emphasis added. Your logic here, as has been pointed out already, is completely wrong. You are trying to attribute the nature of tunnelling to Tasky’s vote-hopping.

Why do you assume your personal playstyle that involved aggressive voting should be a good template by which to judge Tasky? Why do you think a Mafian would not vote that way but a SK would?

The town works best if it's composed of coordinated, organized and rational members rather than a mob of individuals who change votes every time the wind blows.

You rather explicit point of view here doesn’t allow for different playstyles. There are any number of players on site who play in what appears to be an erratic style and can effectively scum-hunt doing so. Are you inflexible on your views of what ‘proper Town play’ is?

[Untrod Tripod]

@Magna

Way to rag on me for something I more or less retracted. But yeah, I get why the tunneling argument is illogical. My bad.

I'm kind of curious about Chihu's argument of "we have a 1/4 chance of lynching scum!". You do realize that means you have a 3/4 chance of lynching town, right? Just checking.

[AClockworkMelon]

The town works best if it's composed of coordinated, organized and rational members rather than a mob of individuals who change votes every time the wind blows.

You rather explicit point of view here doesn’t allow for different playstyles. There are any number of players on site who play in what appears to be an erratic style and can effectively scum-hunt doing so. Are you inflexible on your views of what ‘proper Town play’ is?

If by 'inflexible' you mean 'would prefer that townies are coordinated, organized and rational', then yes. I'd put most of the emphasis on being rational.

[Tasky]

The town works best if it's composed of coordinated, organized and rational members rather than a mob of individuals who change votes every time the wind blows.

You rather explicit point of view here doesn’t allow for different playstyles. There are any number of players on site who play in what appears to be an erratic style and can effectively scum-hunt doing so. Are you inflexible on your views of what ‘proper Town play’ is?

If by 'inflexible' you mean 'would prefer that townies are coordinated, organized and rational', then yes. I'd put most of the emphasis on being rational.

you keep forgetting that coordination and organization isn't possible until one has a baseline to establish who you have to be coordinate with...
as somebody already said, only scum (well, and masons or similar things) can act coordinated in mafia, for townies that's just plain impossible

[AClockworkMelon]

I guess we'll just have to try to at least be rational, then.

[Tasky]

but I do belive that bandwagoning is more the thing a mafioso does when game progresses, since then, losing the option of hiding behind randomness and initial disinformation, he has to do something... and the last remaining thing (except lurking...) which does not imply own, new, fresh thoughts is bandwagoning

Why can’t scum provide ‘new, fresh thoughts’?

each fresh, new thoughts help the town by adding information to the discussion in one way or another... so, scum can either try to say something irrelevant or even anti-town and masking it up as a logical argument (the one I classify as fresh, new thought) or they have to do something which takes away the burden of having to contribute actively, e.g. bandwagoning

[RetroAudio]

Hi, sorry I haven't posted yet. I'll read the pages and catch up, will reply after 12 hours.

[chihuahua0]

@Magna

Way to rag on me for something I more or less retracted. But yeah, I get why the tunneling argument is illogical. My bad.

I'm kind of curious about Chihu's argument of "we have a 1/4 chance of lynching scum!". You do realize that means you have a 3/4 chance of lynching town, right? Just checking.

Good point. I talk too much.

Way

too much.

By the way, you may call my Chi, Chihuahua, C0, Chi0, Chihuahua0, but

not

Chihu. It sounds bad, and C0 and Chi is easier to type anyways. Just want to give everyone a headsup.

[youngminii]

Chihuahua you're getting really defensive. You're also making forced (imo) jokes along the way. Everything you're doing right now seems very unnatural and uncomfortable which I think is either a scumtell or a newbie in action.

IGMEOY

[AClockworkMelon]

Everything you're doing right now seems very unnatural and uncomfortable which I think is either a scumtell or a newbie in action.

Be careful, this is my first game out of the newbie forums.

[Tasky]

I guess we'll just have to try to at least be rational, then.

yeah, but rational doesn't exclude throwing some random votes around... rationality still applies in the evaluation of the result

_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

and another thing... I'd really want to hear from AWA... he/she hasn't said anything execpt "/confirm"
just so you can find in the game and make up a little for the information you owe us, how about answering this questions:
a) which role do you prefer to play (no esoteric roles please)? in particular, do you prefer being mafia or townie?
b) how would you characterize your playing-style?
c) if you were to cast an arbitrary vote, who would you vote for?
d) what do you think about bandwagons?
e) what do you think about RVS?

@mod: please prod AWA

[Zang]

AWA has been prodded

[MagnaofIllusion]

First to everyone (including Tasky) – please answer questions b,d, and e that Tasky posed. I’ll start –

a) which role do you prefer to play (no esoteric roles please)? in particular, do you prefer being mafia or townie?

– This is a pointless WIFOM exercise.

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

– I’m very analytical and tend to post in large chunks, as should be obvious by now.

c) if you were to cast an arbitrary vote, who would you vote for?

– We realistically have cleared RVS at this stage so this serves no purpose.

d) what do you think about bandwagons? –

Forming wagons is an important part of the daytime play in finding scum. They provide a myriad of information. Jumping on a wagon with little to no reasoning is generally scummy, especially when repeated.

e) what do you think about RVS? –

It’s best made as short as possible. Content is better than randomness. That said you can gather information from RVS actions.

@Magna Way to rag on me for something I more or less retracted.

Whether you retracted it or not really isn’t relevant. You made a horrible argument. If you had put serious thought into it the flaws should have been readily apparent.

as somebody already said, only scum (well, and masons or similar things) can act coordinated in mafia, for townies that's just plain impossible

Blatantly untrue. Town can get a group of players who have strong Town reads together and work in a coordinated fashion. It only tends to be useful in larger games but it can happen.

each fresh, new thoughts help the town by adding information to the discussion in one way or another... so, scum can either try to say something irrelevant or even anti-town and masking it up as a logical argument (the one I classify as fresh, new thought) or they have to do something which takes away the burden of having to contribute actively, e.g. bandwagoning

I think you are greatly underestimating the ability of scum to present cogent, credible arguments based on poor Town play.

Hi, sorry I haven't posted yet. I'll read the pages and catch up, will reply after 12 hours.

At this point could you get the cat to walk across your keyboard. That would likely be better content than you’ve so far presented.

@Clockwork – Why are you defending Chi with the Newbie Card. It doesn’t work here.

[youngminii]

b) how would you characterize your playing-style? – I generally let other people post most of the content during the early stages. That's not to say I lurk, it's just I don't feel the need to be up in everyone's face if half the players are already doing it. I start scum hunting later in the game where it's easy to go back and analyse everyone's posts.
d) what do you think about bandwagons? – Wagons are important to the game. Jumping on wagons without reason is generally scummy/lazy, both of which deserve lynchings. Avoiding wagons altogether is also a slight scumtell, but I wouldn't lynch based on this.
e) what do you think about RVS? Important, unavoidable, great for scum to slip up sometimes.

[AWA]

Sorry I haven't posted; I'm away from home at the moment and have very limited Internet access. I posted this in my other game, but I forgot about this one. I'll read up and begin posting as soon as possible.

Again, sorry for the delay.

[Lemon]

b) Somewhat thoughtful to my posts. Haven't played a lot so don't have a definitive style.
d) Bandwagons are useful, but sometimes lead to incorrect lynching, etc.
e) Necessary to start the game, but randomness ultimately hurts the town.


I think I'll come to the defense of Chi to the newbie card. Firstly, we're SCUMHUNTING. His mistakes scream more newb than scum. Attacking him would only rid him from the game and prove useless to the town in the long run.

Secondly, I feel like you're acting quite scummy yourself. Taking it upon yourself to cement a pro-town position among us all, by actively posting. In addition, your spreading of blame that almost nears contempt of other players seems to further this idea. In your posts you have attacked Chihuahua, Tripod, Tasky, Clockwork and erratically attacked RetroAudio. Then when we add to this my first part, Mafia know who their enemies are, a full on attack towards Chihuahua, who obviously acts more newb than scum seems suspicious.

UNVOTE

[Untrod Tripod]

b) how would you characterize your playing-style? – I wouldn't say I have a playstyle right now. I'm in two games right now and they're my first back after a long break from forum mafia. I'd say I'm cautious about how to use my vote and have somewhat of a distrust of anyone who votes/argues aggressively and tries to take over the game.
d) what do you think about bandwagons? Well, I mean, you have to lynch people, that's how the game is played. I prefer a more cautious approach, in general though and I think people's positions on bandwagons can be telling.
e) what do you think about RVS? It's...necessary? You have to start the game somehow, and random voting is a lot better than day 1 mass roleclaim, although I rate it somewhat lower than dick jokes in terms of entertainment.

also, @Lemon I think you're taking a pretty big leap by saying Magna is scum because he's suspicious of Chi. Let's not forget that Chi was urging us to lynch one of the people who was closest to a lynch. Even if he is new, shouldn't we be concerned as to why he's so eager to lynch? I find that more suspicious than trying to get information out of people. Jus' sayin'