Mini 1003 Mafia - Game Over

[AClockworkMelon]

Confirming.

[AClockworkMelon]

Lemon - Any point in pointing out the mod's spelling mistakes and non-use of green text?

[AClockworkMelon]

Tasky - Seconding Magna's confusion as to your voting for him for saying

exactly

what you said.

[AClockworkMelon]

And because I see you too much.

?

[AClockworkMelon]

Unfortunately, I can't say hello to my role PM because I don't have it.

Zang, could I get my role PM please?

Might want to PM the mod.

[AClockworkMelon]

What about aggressive voting rubs you the wrong way? This is only my first non-newb game, but I thought putting pressure on someone, perhaps through voting, was a good way to find scum.

[AClockworkMelon]

I dunno, it looks like Tasky's just rapidly switching targets. He's already voted for 4 different people so far.

[AClockworkMelon]

The town works best if it's composed of coordinated, organized and rational members rather than a mob of individuals who change votes every time the wind blows.

[AClockworkMelon]

why are you, AClockworkMelon quoting youngminii's sentence without saying anything? would you mind expressing an opinion?

I did. Pretend I had said exactly what I quoted. That's my opinion.

so which strategy would you suggest in the early game for scumhunting?

In my first game on this site town pulled out a win and they did it without maddeningly switching votes every other post. Indecisive voting is scummy.

[AClockworkMelon]

Not to mention the rapid switching makes it look like you're something-that-isn't-town trying to find out what sticks. Heck, that was the first reaction I got when I looked at your voting pattern.

That's the feeling I had.

[AClockworkMelon]

The town works best if it's composed of coordinated, organized and rational members rather than a mob of individuals who change votes every time the wind blows.

You rather explicit point of view here doesn’t allow for different playstyles. There are any number of players on site who play in what appears to be an erratic style and can effectively scum-hunt doing so. Are you inflexible on your views of what ‘proper Town play’ is?

If by 'inflexible' you mean 'would prefer that townies are coordinated, organized and rational', then yes. I'd put most of the emphasis on being rational.

[AClockworkMelon]

I guess we'll just have to try to at least be rational, then.

[AClockworkMelon]

Everything you're doing right now seems very unnatural and uncomfortable which I think is either a scumtell or a newbie in action.

Be careful, this is my first game out of the newbie forums.

[AClockworkMelon]

b) how would you characterize your playing-style?

Dry.

d) what do you think about bandwagons?

I'd rather people vote for someone because they think they're scum than because they want to follow a trend.

e) what do you think about RVS?

I think it's unnecessary but I've never been in a game in which it wasn't used so I can't be sure.

[AClockworkMelon]

1> Are you Scum?

This is a test question, and almost any answer I use here will be used against me. No answer.

If you had said "no", how could we have used it against you?

[AClockworkMelon]

I'm going to mimic Minii's vote on Chihuahua and his FOS on Tasky.

VOTE: Chihuahua

[AClockworkMelon]

Tasky, you are attacking players based on their answers to the question, specially those who has thinks you are a scum. Don't you think this is something?

why don't you just say no?

Because the question is basically stupid and nonsense. You should know that.

But it being "stupid nonsense" isn't what you used to avoid answering the question earlier:

1> Are you Scum?

This is a test question, and almost any answer I use here will be used against me. No answer.

I'll ask again: If you had said "no", how could we have used that against you?

[AClockworkMelon]

[AClockworkMelon]

d) what do you think about bandwagons?

I'd rather people vote for someone because they think they're scum than because they want to follow a trend.

Cool. But the question is what you think of bandwagons, not what you think is optimal play.

I thought that to jump on a bandwagon was to follow a trend. My answer was appropriate.

[AClockworkMelon]

d) what do you think about bandwagons?

I'd rather people vote for someone because they think they're scum than because they want to follow a trend.

Cool. But the question is what you think of bandwagons, not what you think is optimal play.

I thought that to jump on a bandwagon was to follow a trend. My answer was appropriate.

So, was that what you did with your chihuahua0 vote?

No.

[AClockworkMelon]

At the risk of being shouted down beneath cries of "OMGUS!",

FOS

: Equinox. The 'case' against me is ridiculous. Maybe you're looking for an easy lynch but I don't think you'll find one here. We've had 7 pages of discussion and you're indifferent towards everyone except me? I'm not buying what you're selling, sorry.

[AClockworkMelon]

You can hardly accuse me of being "indifferent towards everyone except [you]" when you, yourself, have posted

nothing

in terms of reads towards players or suspicions.

Sure I can. I'll do it again. You're up in arms because I "have posted

nothing

in terms of reads towards players or suspicions" but you're apparently indifferent towards everybody.

Explain what you were doing with your chihuahua0 vote, then. That wasn't you going for an "easy lynch," was it?

I was convinced to vote for Chihuahua primarily because of these two posts.

pick one player (except AWA), look through his ISO and post a comment to everyone of their posts...

Sure thing.

Second Self-Inconsistancy (

in relation to actual game issues

) is a huge scum-tell IMO. Going out of your way to point out the spelling errors in the sample PM while yourself using h8 in place of hate (along with other issues) is being self-inconsistent. Regardless I don't feel it is anything other than a way to generate discussion in this case.

well... I do agree with you that self-inconsistancy is a huge scum-tell,

but if and only if it's related to the game itself

... not if it is related to something like grammar.
just wanted to point out that logical fallacy, done on purpose or not

So for now:

UNVOTE: Lemon
VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

Tasky points out a logical fallacy where there isn't any and votes because of it.

Tasky's Vote Count: 2

Tasky - Seconding Magna's confusion as to your voting for him for saying

exactly

what you said.

the vote was more like symbolic... I don't have any clear ideas yet, so I am just throwing around my vote and see what happens and what reactions I get

Oh. Right. His vote was

symbolic

.

My Chihuahuas conform this by faxing

a kitty

to Zang's bunny. Many are outraged.

Be careful, this is my first game out of the newbie forums.

UNVOTE: MagnaofIllusion

VOTE: chihuahua0

because I absolutely did not get what you said in that first line of yours

Apparently we've regressed to the RVS.

Tasky's Vote Count: 3

UNVOTE: chihuahua0
VOTE: Mindgamer

for trying to form bandwagons

Tasky's Vote Count: 4

I dunno, it looks like Tasky's just rapidly switching targets. He's already voted for 4 different people so far.

I make my opinion known.

I'm definitely going to vote RetroAudio now... for totally dodging my questions:
UNVOTE: Mindgamer
VOTE: RetroAudio

Tasky's Vote Count: 5

AWA:

please post

!!

@mod:

please replace AWA, he/she hasn't posted anything at all in this game...

I'll UNVOTE: RetroAudio
VOTE: AWA
lurkers are not accepted in this game

Why would you vote for someone for lurking while asking for them to be replaced?

Tasky's Vote Count: 6

I don't think Tasky's eclectic playstyle is helpful at all. Even if he does find legitimately scummy behavior it's quickly forgotten so that he can nonsensically vote for someone else a few posts later. He'll argue that there's a method to his madness but I the method is broken. Your vote counts for absolutely no pressuring power when people know that you change it at the drop of a hat. Noncommittal behavior, pointless voting, etc, it's all there. But wait. I already had my FOS on Tasky.

Excuse me if I don't feel like saying what's already been said. People are aware of Tasky's behavior without my making this giant post about it.

[AClockworkMelon]

the logical fallacy was there... he was saying inconsistency is always a scum-tell, I answered that it's one only if it's related to actual game issues

Are you blind or are you being intentionally disingenuous? It's right there in the quoted text. He was saying that inconsistency was a scumtell

if it's related to game issues

.

if you compare the reasons for the vote to the reasons of the votes before and after it, you'll see that your post is nonsense...
I didn't think that small fallacy was a scum-tell... but it's better to vote for a small error than for a random reason

Again, I'm just going to roll my eyes at

symbolic

voting. See? -> Btw, there was no small error. Yet again (all together now), he said that inconsistency is only a scumtell if it's related to game issues- exactly the same thing as you said.

Apparently we've regressed to the RVS.

hmmm... maybe that's because that post

was

in RVS... please read the game-thread before posting bullshit

"2+2=4"
"Maybe that's because 2+2=4, please read the equation before posting bullshit."

by the way, I play as I like, I'm not going to change my playing-style just because you say so...

Don't worry, Mr Internet Tough Guy, no one is asking you to change your playstyle.

Unvote

VOTE: Tasky

[AClockworkMelon]

not reading thread carefully

Lul.

You've made only one case against one player

Lul.

[AClockworkMelon]

Apparently we've regressed to the RVS.

hmmm... maybe that's because that post

was

in RVS... please read the game-thread before posting bullshit

"2+2=4"
"Maybe that's because 2+2=4, please read the equation before posting bullshit."

I don't get this...could you make your point a little more explicit?
you attacked me because I "regressed to the RVS" so I pointed out that it actually was RVS. since it seems like you didn't understand that I thought that you might not have read the game thread well enough... attacking without reading definitely is a scum-tell

You keep insisting that I haven't read the thread. I assure you that I have. You said that you'd voted for Magna for a reason. If you have a reason to vote for someone that means your vote isn't random. But you later went back to random voting. That's all that I pointed out. I really don't understand why you're making a big deal out of this point.

[AClockworkMelon]

And to Magna, I never agreed with anyone that I was behaving scummily.

[AClockworkMelon]

AClockworkMelon... I'd still like to see a comment to this:

Noncommittal behavior, pointless voting, etc, it's all there. But wait. I already had my FOS on Tasky.

wowowo... let's recall your FoS post:

I'm going to mimic Minii's vote on Chihuahua and his FOS on Tasky.

VOTE: Chihuahua

which was mimicing this post:

^ Big scumtell. You didn't give any new information, all you did was recycle information and jump on an already existing bandwagon.

FoS: Tasky

Still keeping my chihuahua vote though.

1. I did not recycle information... if you really think so, I want you to quote each one of my posts and link to the post were that information already showed up
2. this is much worse: you accused me for recycling information and how did you do that?

copying another player's (youngminii's) post

... now,

that's

recycling information and jumping on bandwagons (FoS-wagons in this case)
if you want other examples of the same thing, there here are more:
first one
second one
so, shouldn't you FoS yourself by that reasoning?

I was mimicking his vote and FOS, not his reasoning verbatim.

[AClockworkMelon]

I was mimicking his vote and FOS, not his reasoning verbatim.

and what do you think about the reasoning?

I'm aware of the irony, yes.

[AClockworkMelon]

And to Magna, I never agreed with anyone that I was behaving scummily.

The agreement doesn’t have to be explicit to have happened. You accused someone of looking for an easy lynch when voting for you. By inference an easy lynch is directed at someone who is playing in a scummy manner.

Being an easy lynch does not mean scummy.

I would also like to weigh in on the ACM debate: ACM, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that you don't like posting very much at a time. I don't really feel that this is scumtell, but I get the feeling that you feel that the less you post, the less people can pick apart. I'm getting a null read on him, but due to the fact that he seems to like quoting more than restating, I think we need more info from him before we can claim to have a good read on him.

I typically post a lot, but in other games I've played in I've been criticized for being too active. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

[AClockworkMelon]

I realize that sometimes easy targets are scum

I chose Tasky not because you asked me to, but because he did. I'd already put my FOS on him and I'd already criticized his play. He wasn't chosen because of how soft a target he was.

[AClockworkMelon]

link,link,link... please link the exact post where you were criticized for being too active...

Sure, I've got two games that come to mind.

Would it be a breach of 'discussing active games' if I just linked to a single post or whatever?

[AClockworkMelon]

I guess I should've expected that as the first question.

AClockworkMelon:

What about aggressive voting rubs you the wrong way? This is only my first non-newb game, but I thought putting pressure on someone, perhaps through voting, was a good way to find scum.

The town works best if it's composed of coordinated, organized and rational members rather than a mob of individuals who change votes every time the wind blows.

Unless I am defining "aggressive voting" incorrectly, these two posts eem to have radically different statements, yet they are only 7 posts apart.

I don't understand how you can't see the difference. I think pressuring people with votes is a good way to achieve results but by changing your vote every other post you are partially neutering your vote's influence. Changing your vote constantly is

not

aggressive voting. It's indecisive voting.

[AClockworkMelon]

ACM: Can you more clearly define agressive voting? The only way I can define it is if you switch votes frequently and with reason, otherwise it's just regular voting.

My definition was included in the post of mine that you quoted:

What about aggressive voting rubs you the wrong way? This is only my first non-newb game, but I thought

putting pressure on someone, perhaps through voting

, was a good way to find scum.

And here's why Tasky's style isn't effective at pressuring people:

by changing your vote every other post you are partially neutering your vote's influence

If I know that Tasky will change his vote over nothing I'm not going to be under very much pressure when he decides to plants his vote on me.

[AClockworkMelon]

Unvote

Vote: Chihuahua0

You need to understand that it's only hurting the town if you are a townie and don't want to defend against false accusations.

On the other hand, if you're scum, keep it up.

Your vote was already on Chihuahua.

[AClockworkMelon]

make up a sample post (very approximative, you can also explain what would be in it), which could be written by chihuahua0 and which satisfies following conditions:
a. It would make you vote for him if he posted it.
b. If another post was even slightly less scummy than that post, you would not vote chihuahua0 for it.

What a ridiculous request.

[AClockworkMelon]

Tasky, nobody is going to respond positively to your request because it's BS.

People feel that Chihuahua's current behavior is more indicative of noobishness than scum. You asking people to provide examples of what it would take for him to seem like scum is obnoxious. Next time you get a town read on someone we'll drill you for a sample post of what it would take from them to look like scum. It's a waste of time and frankly I think you're just being a distraction at this point.

[AClockworkMelon]

@ACM: Where is your super talkative meta, I would like to see it.

You can go to my wiki and find a list of my games. I was already told in this thread not to link to active games.

[AClockworkMelon]

I was already comfortable in my vote on Tasky and this is only making me more comfortable.

no... I want to know whether people would be ever willing to lynch chihuahua...
I asked for it, I'd like an answer... a townie would have no problem answering me even if they don't agree that it's useful since they have nothing to hide...

I guess everyone in the game is scum, because you aren't going to get any positive responses.

I really don't like how you pretend to judge others like that...

Irony. Do you have any idea how pretentious you sound with these

requests

demands?

[AClockworkMelon]

everybody scumhunts in his way... just because you don't like my way, that doesn't mean it can't be effective...

I appreciate the fact that everyone has a style of their own, however, given the fact that I predict everyone, town and scum alike, will react similarly to your demand, I don't see it being effective.

[AClockworkMelon]

Her FOS of Equinox is weird too; you

were

active lurking, and she just called you out on it.

Going back and rereading it, I have to concede that it was basically OMGUS (I even reassured people that it

wasn't

OMGUS in the very same post!).

[AClockworkMelon]

And to everyone who isn't sure about voting for Tasky yet, I suggest reading my case, redtail's case and Espeonage's case. I'm sort of baffled that more people aren't concerned with his playstyle.

[AClockworkMelon]

ACM 174: Good examples of Tasky switching his vote around a lot. Which means what? Do you think that this implies scum? If so, why?

At best it's just a pointless waste of time but at worst it shows indecisiveness and opportunism. I interpreted his behavior as an attempt to find a vote that would stick with the town.

Event D) ACM says to

retro

: "But it being "stupid nonsense" isn't what you used to avoid answering the question earlier:" and shows where

chihuahua

refused to answer the question. (Fail ACM. fail)

Fail indeed.

[AClockworkMelon]

Mod, are we going to be getting an extension so that Tasky's replacement can chime in?