Mini 1003 Mafia - Game Over

[Lemon]

/confirm

I would also like to say hi to everyone I don't know (which is everyone).

[Lemon]

Well, hi again.
Two things I would like to say.

That townie role PM has two pretty major spelling errors.

And I guess I'll start with a random vote.

Vote: mindgamer

, because two people seem to already know you.

[Lemon]

Don't h8 for me being observative and/or new.

@ Magna - At least you caught your mistake

[Lemon]

Just because my vocabulary is varied (cat speak to standard English), doesn't mean you can attack me. And what if his scum-tell is his lurkiness?

Also,

@Mod

maybe use the Green you outlined in rule 2? I don't really care though, your choice.

[Lemon]

Just because my vocabulary is varied (cat speak to standard English), doesn't mean you can attack me. And what if his scum-tell is his lurkiness?

First anyone can attack you for any reason they choose. Whether the attack is valid or not is another matter.

Second Self-Inconsistancy (in relation to actual game issues) is a huge scum-tell IMO. Going out of your way to point out the spelling errors in the sample PM while yourself using h8 in place of hate (along with other issues) is being self-inconsistent. Regardless I don't feel it is anything other than a way to generate discussion in this case.

My post re: Mindgamer is a direct reference to the game we played together (Newbie 912) and nothing more.

Lemon, do you find lurking to be a scum-tell?

Yeah, I know.

As for self-inconsistency, perhaps, but I don't think on vocabulary it terribly matters. And the h8 also felt ironic due to the idea of being picky about the sample, excuse me if I'm wrong.

I see. Then what about the other person who said hi specifically to Mindgamer ? Regardless, it was just a random vote.

As for my position, I find it as scumtell somewhat, but I haven't played a lot of games (as noted astutely in part A of your reasoning of my vote) to have a really strong position on it. But from some chat mafia games (which I don't know if they're a complete other thing or not) it seems like a pretty useful measure.

[Lemon]

Lemon - Any point in pointing out the mod's spelling mistakes and non-use of green text?

I was re-reading the post and noticed the error. Then I was looking at the post and couldn't differentiate from a person or the mod. He's a new mod, so helping slightly doesn't seem that bad

As for deciding who to lynch, perhaps a random question stage? Then we pick at each other from that.

[Lemon]

b) Somewhat thoughtful to my posts. Haven't played a lot so don't have a definitive style.
d) Bandwagons are useful, but sometimes lead to incorrect lynching, etc.
e) Necessary to start the game, but randomness ultimately hurts the town.


I think I'll come to the defense of Chi to the newbie card. Firstly, we're SCUMHUNTING. His mistakes scream more newb than scum. Attacking him would only rid him from the game and prove useless to the town in the long run.

Secondly, I feel like you're acting quite scummy yourself. Taking it upon yourself to cement a pro-town position among us all, by actively posting. In addition, your spreading of blame that almost nears contempt of other players seems to further this idea. In your posts you have attacked Chihuahua, Tripod, Tasky, Clockwork and erratically attacked RetroAudio. Then when we add to this my first part, Mafia know who their enemies are, a full on attack towards Chihuahua, who obviously acts more newb than scum seems suspicious.

UNVOTE

[Lemon]

@Tripod - To clarify, I'm not calling him a mafia, but I see it as somewhat suspicious.
Chi definitely seems more careless and newblike than a mafia. Unless this is a new mafia strategy, he feels more newb town, referencing the wiki.

@Mindgamer - It may be effective scumhunting, but it is also effective in diverting attention from yourself. And he probably isn't the first to act really pro-town to shake off suspicions. Obviously pro-town is usually for the town, but Magna's type of pro-town pushing seems to be doing is spreading suspicions and attention elsewhere, diverting them from himself.

[Lemon]

I think I'll come to the defense of Chi to the newbie card. Firstly, we're SCUMHUNTING. His mistakes scream more newb than scum. Attacking him would only rid him from the game and prove useless to the town in the long run.

You seem to be confused. Newbie is not a game alignment. Scum is. I don’t give any leeway to players outside of the Road to Rome for what you are calling “newb” play. The place for that is the Newbie cue. Once you venture from Newbie’s friendly confines I assume you are confident in your ability to play the game. Mistakes made are mistakes made and worthy of examination.

I’ll state it plainly once again … bad play is bad play. You may blindly believe that it can only be attributed to Newb Town play if you wish. I will not.

Please explain what you mean by “attacking him would only rid him from the game”. Do you mean he’s likely to replace out? Do you mean by lynch? In either case how do you assume it will prove ‘useless’ to Town in the long run. Are you stating you know Chi’s alignment?

What I am saying is that kill him through lynch. Perhaps he may lead us astray with his newbiness, but more likely, it intuitively feels more like newb Townie mistakes than anything. Are you going to policy kill him on this basis?

Secondly, I feel like you're acting quite scummy yourself. Taking it upon yourself to cement a pro-town position among us all, by actively posting.

So you find it scummy to actively post? Your basis for Mafia theory is certainly different than mine

So Mafia can't act incredibly or out of the ordinarily active to trick the town?

In addition, your spreading of blame that almost nears contempt of other players seems to further this idea. In your posts you have attacked Chihuahua, Tripod, Tasky, Clockwork and erratically attacked RetroAudio.

I’m going to address concerns and question players as much as I like. It’s called scum-hunting. Your use of loaded phrases like “spreading of blame that almost nears contempt” is noted. I’m going to ‘attack’ every player in the game. I’m looking for scum. Prodding their thinking, motivations and posts is how I do that.

Please back up your statement that I “erratically” attacked RA. I see nothing erratic at all. If anything it appears another attempt by yourself to use loaded phrasing.

At this point could you get the cat to walk across your keyboard. That would likely be better content than you’ve so far presented.

Because that is a terribly reasonable reply to a post which probably signifies that they're busy.

Then when we add to this my first part, Mafia know who their enemies are, a full on attack towards Chihuahua, who obviously acts more newb than scum seems suspicious.

Funny that you state that the Mafia know who their enemies are. This post by you, if anything, looks like a Chainsaw defence for Chi.

I see it as instead of possibly getting rid of a scum, or focusing our suspicions elsewhere, we focus on his newb play.

Chi definitely seems more careless and newblike than a mafia. Unless this is a new mafia strategy, he feels more newb town, referencing the wiki.

Look up Razorback in Newbie 914 if you want a perfect example of why newb-style play does not indicate alignment. And the Wiki is not a bible of Mafia truth. It’s a handy reference. Appealing to the Wiki’s authority is not Pro-Town.

I agree with all those statements, yet are you going to say that his actions also simultaneously look incredibly mafia like? We can run on a hunch that his newb-style play is mafia, but that isn't a really great assumption.

It may be effective scumhunting, but it is also effective in diverting attention from yourself. And he probably isn't the first to act really pro-town to shake off suspicions. Obviously pro-town is usually for the town, but Magna's type of pro-town pushing seems to be doing is spreading suspicions and attention elsewhere, diverting them from himself.

If it was effective at diverting attention you wouldn’t be making your poorly reasoned attack, would you? If you can come up with some reasonable support for your assetion that my play is scummy please bring it up and I’ll address them. Otherwise your “Too Town for Town” argument is just a WIFOM exercise.

I look forward to your future attacks on other Pro-Town players

I will leave it at suspicion. Extremely pro-town play can be both pro-town and mafia. I would rather leave it at more a, don't trust you completely stage. Your arguments are cogent, and I respect that, but with caution.


@nopointinactingup & youngminii - Then do you think that we should policy lynch Chi for being a newb?

[Lemon]

It's not a policy lynch. I honestly believe Chi's posts are either scummy or newbie. Now this is

not

a newbie game, hence I'm inclined to believe his posts are scummy. So yes, I think we should lynch Chi.

Then I guess we can invoke something we call "metagaming".

chihuahua0 "Joined: Jun 16 2010", so about 2 weeks ago, so probably hasn't even went one day phase in his newbie game and also has "Total posts: 44" so that also signifies he hasn't played a lot of games. In fact, most of his posts aren't in games, but in discussion, or other games threads (Mish Mash).

So just because we're not in a newbie game, but he makes newbie mistakes, we should lynch and waste our lynch if he isn't mafia. His mistakes can be attributed to newbiness or being scum, it seems more likely the former at the moment.

[Lemon]

Was there a reason Lemon questioned Zang in post 27?

Post 76

@Mindgamer - It may be effective scumhunting, but it is also effective in diverting attention from yourself. And he probably isn't the first to act really pro-town to shake off suspicions. Obviously pro-town is usually for the town, but Magna's type of pro-town pushing seems to be doing is spreading suspicions and attention elsewhere, diverting them from himself.

What I don't understand is how else MagnaofIllusion is supposed to do it. His attacks appear to me to be well-rounded, which is a good thing to do in Day 1 as it spreads attention across the player list and prevents tunneling. I also don't see how he is "diverting [attention and suspicions] from himself." Please explain that last part.

By focusing on others, he is able to change our perspective to focus on them. What I only have is a semi-hunch.

I see it as instead of possibly getting rid of a scum, or focusing our suspicions elsewhere, we focus on his newb play.

I may agree with your defense of chihuahua0 (more later), but this is a poor response to MagnaofIllusion's accusation that you are chainsaw defending. Post more evidence behind your defense of chihuahua0, or I start wondering why you so firmly believe he is town.

Well, that's my defense and my purpose. No other. I just feel is is more newbie, and as you said before (I don't know why it never came to me), an easy target.

let's assume for a moment chihuahua really is a newbie (everyone can pretend to be one, so the other will go easier on him/her)... being a newbie does not exclude that he is mafia...
the thing is: if we go to lynch chihuahua0 because we think he is scum, worst case scenario we lynch an useless newbie townie
if however we don't lynch him, but go for a more experienced player, worst case scenario we lynch a really useful experienced townie...

But in the best case, we get a scum. I think we should push for the best case.

still, I really think we should lynch so early (in case someone was thinking of that now), it would just deprive us precious discussion-time we could use to find scum...

Why would you push for a quick lynch? How would that give us more time to discuss who is scum? This statement in its entirety is suspicious.

As for the rest of your post, townies have no reason to fear scrutiny. They still win if they die, so they are free to accuse, vote, and defend as necessary. Why are you afraid of people criticizing you?

Townies have plenty of reason to fear scrutiny. For one, if you die, you can't play anymore. The other, more game related, would be that if a townie dies, it makes the odds better for the scum.

[Lemon]

Extremely pro-town play can be both pro-town and mafia.

this is nonsense... extremely pro-town = extremely pro town... nothing more, nothing less...
pro-town is good, anti-town is bad; that's it.

Unless it's completely unfathomable that a Mafia act fake pro-town *gasp*.

By focusing on others, he is able to change our perspective to focus on them. What I only have is a semi-hunch.

On the other hand, if MagnaofIllusion is town, that's exactly what he has to do: focus on other players he feels are scum. This hunch feels like paranoia.

Extremely pro-town play can be both pro-town and mafia. I would rather leave it at more a, don't trust you completely stage. Your arguments are cogent, and I respect that, but with caution.

This looks like you're going into the Too Townie" fallacy. Explain, particularly the part where you say pro-town play can be pro-mafia.

Maybe it is paranoia, I realized how the Too Townie argument is somewhat flawed, but I agree with the statement on that wiki page (apply it to a general case) "very easily be playing an extremely convincing double-bluff. His posts do a great job of making the implication "I'm town". So, it's easy to overlook him as a serious candidate for being scum, without ever questioning his motives." And like I said above, it's not unfathomable that Mafia act pro-town.

1. Well, the 3 people at L-5 doesn't really apply anymore, but I'll "show" my work. There are twelve people playing this game, correct? So with three people, there is

about

of 1/4 of a chance that

at least

one of them were scum.
Of course, that also means that there is at least a 1/3 chance that one of them is town, or a smaller chance that one of them is a cop or a doctor.

Except, the Mafia knows who their enemies are. Hence they probably could have influenced all the L-5 wagons, thus making them less random.


And honestly, at the "1> Are you Scum?" question to Chihuahua, stop overplaying it. I would bet that regardless of what answer, you guys would pick it apart. If he said he was townie or no, there would probably be some convoluted method to determine that he's lying and convict him on that basis. Also, in regards to nopointinactingup, last I checked, lying on the internet is as easy as it takes to type the words. Why would you be uncomfortable lying to complete strangers in a game where lying is condoned, even somewhat promoted.

[Lemon]

What I am saying is that kill him through lynch. Perhaps he may lead us astray with his newbiness, but more likely, it intuitively feels more like newb Townie mistakes than anything. Are you going to policy kill him on this basis?

Your inherent assumption that invalidates this entire line of questioning is that Chi is Town. Unless you know for certain that fact your continual efforts to paint his scummy play as “Newb” (which once again IS NOT AN ALIGNMENT) and to paint any attempt to lynch him as a “Policy lynch” are at best Anti-Town.

Newb is not an alignment, but it can reflect how a person acts. Acting newb is different from acting scum, and basically policy lynching doesn't help us. Unless you find it does help, or can conclusively rule out newb from scum.

So Mafia can't act incredibly or out of the ordinarily active to trick the town?

Can you substantiate that my activity in this game is “out of the ordinary”? If not you are simply using the “Too Townie” fallacy, which is scummy.

You have the most posts (which is kind of a null argument), but you also have attacked the most people, and very early for insignificant slights.

I see it as instead of possibly getting rid of a scum, or focusing our suspicions elsewhere, we focus on his newb play.

More unfounded statements.

1. How again is focusing on Chi’s scummy behaviour not scum-hunting?
2. Can you support the inference that I’m focusing solely on Chi? You are attempting to portray my play as Tunneling.

1. Over-focusing on basically the easiest target in this entire game. Especially as metagame shows he's really newb.
2. I'm not saying that you're tunneling. I'm saying that we're focusing on him, because he's an easy target.

But in the best case, we get a scum. I think we should push for the best case.

Yet your posts to the point of Post 155 consist of defending Chi and doing some awkward attack on me. You aren’t even voting for anyone. If you truly believed what you said you would be making a case and actively voting for someone.

I am uncertain at best at your intentions. I would just like to be wary of whom to trust, and would like others to have the same wariness.

Except, the Mafia knows who their enemies are. Hence they probably could have influenced all the L-5 wagons, thus making them less random.

You keep stating that the Mafia “knows who their enemies are” as if it is not inherent game knowledge. Why?

Some people forget this knowledge. You can probably tell Chihuahua has.

And honestly, at the "1> Are you Scum?" question to Chihuahua, stop overplaying it. I would bet that regardless of what answer, you guys would pick it apart. If he said he was townie or no, there would probably be some convoluted method to determine that he's lying and convict him on that basis.

This post is mind-boggling. Are you saying if he has said “No, I’m not scum” he would be attacked for that? You are so tied to your defense of Chi at this point you can’t rationally separate yourself from the argument. You are pre-judging others based on theoretically actions that never happened.

Because people still act like people, and many have attacked him over seemingly innocuous things. I don't think prejudging based upon what I have seen so far is outlandish.

I’m going to flat out ask you (and the expected uproar over “Role-Fishing” be damned) if you have any concrete reason why you know Chi is Town.

No. There is no concrete reason why Chi is Mafia either outside of supposition. Interpreting newb play as scum play doesn't benefit the town.


Additional @ Magna
I don't find anybody terribly suspicious, YET. I don't like randomly throwing down my vote on the slightest suspicion or twitch.
And... I am admittedly not that great at scum-hunting. But simultaneously, I don't agree with the idea that throwing down accusations is beneficial to the town.

[Lemon]

Post by post on RA it goes.

RVS

RVS.

Busy post
Another one

Busy, probably real life so insignificant.

#107

Brings some interesting questions, though mostly innocuous.

For role, I wouldn't extract too much out. It's the truth, and it doesn't serve a purpose, it just makes it clear they like being Mafia, which is not an indicator of existing alignment.
The playstyle is interesting, but I overanalyzing it seems to have no purpose.
Arbitrary vote- um wat.
Bandwagons, a repeat statement, but Mindgamer's statement is good.
Vague answer, perhaps to avoid it, but not indicative of scumminess.

scum really likes to jump on other peoples bandwagons

Actually, the scum will try to break bandwagons if it makes good points. They will and will like the town going nuts. Deal with that fact. Bandwagons isn't the same with

"FUCK YES! LET'S LYNCH HIM".

It's extracting information, applying pressure, getting reactions and an emotion depressant.

Tell me why "too inquiring" is a bad thing

Too inquiring

is synonymous to

obvious pointless defensiveness

if it is used to point out

Day 1:

RVS

behaviour. Now how is it a bad thing? hmm.

could you please explain this point a little better?

I answered the question with a smile on my face, without thinking of any better term to describe it. You may ask Mindgamer about how I really play, lol.

1st point, yes, it's a valid point.
Somewhat valid point, but not immediately scummy due to somewhat validity.
An evasive response towards a question, suspicious.

#116

Similarly evasive, avoiding the question.

#133

Similarly evasive, but also somewhat due to a quote misunderstanding or such?

answer what?

Post #135, very suspicious. Feigning idiocy, probably avoiding the question at hand. Also confusing grammatically, although it seems less scummy and more grammar fail.

#138

Proves suspicious, but one word answer doesn't give much towards analysis.


What I can glean from his posts is that he is evading the questions, perhaps avoiding leaking information.
The next thing I can glean is that through his metagame, he's playing a game elsewhere, but avoiding this game, perhaps actively lurking.
But none of this seems like a solid conviction, although it is suspicious.

[Lemon]

EBWOP, 3rd sentence of #135 was intended for #133

[Lemon]

You have the most posts (which is kind of a null argument), but you also have attacked the most people, and very early for insignificant slights.

How is this scummy, Lemon?

It does not necessarily need to be, but I find it that we should not absolutely trust Magna. We have no good reason to.

Top 2 suspects with explanation, please.

My 2 would have to be RetroAudio, for the suspicious dodging of questions, and ACM, for the aforementioned "active lurking". I would put Chi for a close 3rd.

So I can only see a few reasons for using this defense. I think Lemon might be using it because he thinks that it might excuse his own poor play because if we excuse Chi for bad play due to his join date, we might excuse Lemon. No one in the town is excused from poor play. Poor play is anti-town. You trying to excuse poor play with the excuse that he's a n00b. Deflecting suspicion from a bad player is suspicious.

IGMEOY Lemon

Or... we could go the third route. HE ISN'T NECESSARILY SCUM. Here, I will invoke your term, NASAME. Just because he's newb, doesn't mean he's scum. I feel he's more newb townie than newb scum, thus I feel that it doesn't warrant a lynch.

Lemon

1. what is inherently protown play?
2. What is inherently antitown play?
3. Why is Magna antitown? What exactly scares you about active players?
4. When are you going to stop referencing the wiki page instead of using your own reasoning?

1. I don't necessarily feel there is inherently a guaranteed protown claim. Anything protown can similarly be imitated by a mafia.
2. Working against the town. Trying to create confusion and chaos. Lying is also mostly antitown.
3. He is not necessarily anti-town, I just don't trust him completely.
4. I've been using both, not one exclusively.

Acting newb is different from acting scum, and basically policy lynching doesn't help us. Unless you find it does help, or can conclusively rule out newb from scum.

I don’t consider any play outside of the Road to Rome as newbie play. You venture outside those confines and play poorly you deserve to get lynched. Sink or swim. The Road to Rome is there for a reason. Even though I have plenty of experience playing elsewhere I didn’t play outside RtR until I felt certain I was well acclimated to MS. It may be harsh but it’s my standard.

And now you have stated it yourself, it is effectively a policy lynch. Not everyone is you, and policy lynching doesn't help us.

You have the most posts (which is kind of a null argument), but you also have attacked the most people, and very early for insignificant slights.

Way to dodge the question. I asked if you could substantiate my activity as “out of the ordinary”. Which means something that would indicate I am scum based on how I play. Not anyone else. Furthermore I don’t know what you expect players to do. Early on the only suspicious behaviour is likely to be fairly insignificant in the long run. How else do you expect to get things going? Do you expect scum to just blurt out “Lynch me I’m Mafia”?

No, but you even attacked unsuspicious behavior. I can't indicate you are scum, but I will say that I don't completely trust you for your play. And no, I do not expect scum to blurt it out, but I don't expect scum to act inherently scummy. Why not act pro-town to shake off suspicions?

1. Over-focusing on basically the easiest target in this entire game. Especially as metagame shows he's really newb.
2. I'm not saying that you're tunneling. I'm saying that we're focusing on him, because he's an easy target.

1. Do you know what metagaming actually is? It’s using past performance of an individual player to determine whether they are Town or scum. What you are doing is using general Wiki-info to support your theory that Chi is Town. Also, please prove how I am over-focusing.
2. What do you mean “we” are focusing on him? You aren’t, you are defending him to the hilt when he doesn’t bother to defend himself.

1. Apparently YOU don't know what metagaming actually is.

Metagaming is using ANY AND ALL information NOT related to the game at hand.

Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.

Which I believe post counts, what type of posts, join dates, etc. transcends the game.

The mafiascum's wiki definition of metagaming is surface level at best.

2. Which may be my fault. He's getting more suspicious the more he decides to do nothing, but I don't firmly believe in his scumminess.

Some people forget this knowledge. You can probably tell Chihuahua has.

Prove it. I see tons of assertions out of you with little support.

1. Well, the 3 people at L-5 doesn't really apply anymore, but I'll "show" my work. There are twelve people playing this game, correct? So with three people, there is

about

of 1/4 of a chance that

at least

one of them were scum.
Of course, that also means that there is at least a 1/3 chance that one of them is town, or a smaller chance that one of them is a cop or a doctor.

Except, the Mafia knows who their enemies are. Hence they probably could have influenced all the L-5 wagons, thus making them less random.

I don't find anybody terribly suspicious, YET. I don't like randomly throwing down my vote on the slightest suspicion or twitch.
And... I am admittedly not that great at scum-hunting. But simultaneously, I don't agree with the idea that throwing down accusations is beneficial to the town.

Your method of not voting is not Pro-Town. It’s overcautious as you appear not to want to make waves and potentially offend anyone. Town do not have any inherent reason to be so indecisive.

I don't really care if I potentially offend anyone. I've basically made waves in the game by defending Chihuahua and using Too Townie. I don't see how that is evading the public eye. Active lurking would make me appear overcautious, but last I checked I wasn't.

If anything your repeated and pointless defence of Chi leads me to believe you know he’s Town and want to reap the benefits if he is lynched.

I don't necessarily see how it is pointless considering that he just might be a newb townie instead of a newb scum. Also, I don't see how my defense is exactly leading him to be lynched either. If you mean the convoluted, if he's townie, I'm probably townie conclusion, then I could see the benefit, but in all realisticness, unless you conclusively see him as scum, then I believe it's almost a policy lynch by the large majority.