Mini 992 - Mafia in Handsometown - Game Over

[Seacore]

I completely agree, scum. Your story does change depending on which post I look at. Don't worry, I already noticed that.

[ZeroFang]

There has been consistency throughout. Perhaps a couple clarifications for nitpickers, but I haven't changed any "story".

Also, ad hom remarks (like referring to me as scum) don't further your case at all. They merely point out your lack of evidence. Lacking evidence while insisting someone is scum is fairly scummy.

Unvote; Vote: Seacore

[ZeroFang]

EBWOP: I'll probably be out till morning. I have a lot of reading to do in a game I just replaced into and I don't really have time to respond to a bad accusation every ten minutes. I'll deal with them all in a block tomorrow. Hopefully we'll get some more people posting too.

[CallMeLiam]

Vote Count

Quoi - 2

- Lowell, The Butterfly

mallowgeno - 1

- Lateralus22

AGar - 2

- mallowgeno, gonnano

julienvonwolfe - 1

- AGar

ZeroFang - 4

- julienvonwolfe, Swiss, Seacore, Chevre

Lowell - 1

- Quoi

Seacore - 1

- ZeroFang

12 needs 7

[Seacore]

This just in. Apparently it's an ad hom remark to point out that you believe someone is scum? Who'd have thought.

It's also apparently not a case to point out that somebody has changed their case after being prodded. Indeed, interesting.

In other news, ZeroFang is very scummy. His voting post was pretty much textbook scum. When Zero flips scum, I'm likely putting my vote down on Gonnano. Scum often vote:town, fos:scum buddy. It's a great way to distance. Zero has tried to up the ante by saying that Gonnano is even more scummy than Mallow, in an attempt to put even more distance between the two of them.

Later tonight, an expose on why nit picking is just what scum call "Oh crap, I dropped the ball and you all can see I'm scum"

[Swiss]

There has been consistency throughout. Perhaps a couple clarifications for nitpickers, but I haven't changed any "story".

Also, ad hom remarks (like referring to me as scum) don't further your case at all. They merely point out your lack of evidence. Lacking evidence while insisting someone is scum is fairly scummy.

Unvote; Vote: Seacore

Lol @ omgus.

I might be tunelling here so it'd be sweet if someone told me if they feel the votes on Zero aren't necessary.

[julienvonwolfe]

@ All: Please keep things civil in this game - from what I've seen, players in this game seem quite keen to get personal, which is really not necessary. Emotions can lead to people losing objectivity, which is the only weapon that town really has most of the time.

@julienvonwolfe I was attempting to explain what mallow's questions were about. That's it. He was either (a) attempting to get a meta on all of you, (b) asking questions for potential scum-tells, (c) sparking conversation or (d) posted questions for the hell of it. Maybe all of the above.

I see. You have quite effectively clarified what you thought Mallow's questions were about, thank you. What are your views on the effectiveness of such a tactic?

I confess that after a more thorough review of the thread I find this post of yours more troubling than the one I quoted in my previous post, simply because if you truly considered gonnano to be scum you would surely try to lynch him instead (as Chevre has said). I don't think scum are as all-powerful at controlling wagons as you make them out to be.

@ Mallow

: What do you think of Zero's explanations for the intent behind your questions, and also what do you think of his answering for you? Do you consider it necessary, and why/why not? Also, why is voting Chevre better than not voting? Finally, you would appear to think AGar scum due to your vote after his comment that your questions had only a 1% probability of being useful. I would find it instructive if you could tell me how you worked this out.


Some stuff for others:

@ Quoi: Happy with the reaction to your self-vote? If so, why, and if not, why not?

@ Swiss, your joking replies to Mallow's questions suggest that you do not consider them serious (thank goodness), though I'm not sure of your true thoughts. Would you care to elaborate?

@ Butterfly, how's that wagoning worked for you? Caught scum yet?

@ Lateralus, since you gave a somewhat substantial answer to one of Mallow's questions: how does the role given to you influence your preference of town or mafia? Have you played much mafia before?

[julienvonwolfe]

EBWOP: also @ Swiss: I put it to you that you look like Zero's scumbuddy trying to defuse the wagon. Refute away.

[Swiss]

JVW (can I call you that? I'll call you that) I thought the questions were pointless, what is it you would care for me to elaborate on? I haven't really made a major point on which to elaborate. Thus my willingness to elaborate is and has been as elaborate as can be reasonably expected, I'm sure you'll agree.

WRT your second point - No I don't. Consider the point refuted.

Just want to know if anyone thinks we're being overly harsh on him, we could easily swap to another wagon at this stage in the day.

[julienvonwolfe]

Why would you be concerned about our being overly harsh on him?

[Seacore]

@JVW - Awww, no question to me? I feel all rejected.

To clarify, I wasn't calling Zero "scum" as a personal attack. If I was going to do that i would have used offensive words like "jerk" or "monkey spanner", which I'd never do, because I don't make personal attacks. I was declaring he was scum in a deliberately assertive, even aggressive, way.

Also, I'd like to investigate Zero's defence of voting his "second" scum read, rather than his first.

I voted mallow because I also suspected him almost as much, and there was already someone voting for him. It's useless to me to vote the person you hold the highest suspicion for if someone just as bad is already being voted for. My suspicion of gonnano came from the fact that he voted a person for pointing out that the questions were useless, and he was using false logic to try and make AGar look bad. My suspicion of mallow stems from the fact that he attempted to justify a vote on poor grounds. Since they both did relatively the same thing, I suspect them both roughly the same. Just FYI, it's typically a bad idea to split the votes up as it lends more vote influence to the mafia, and letting the mafia have control of the votes is a very bad idea.

My read of this is that placing the first vote on somebody is bad, because it spreads our votes out and makes us susceptible to scum jumping on these tiny wagons and making them bigger wagons. I disagree, but lets assume that was true.
So he jumps on a wagon that has a single other person on it.
a) how does he know that person isn't scum, and thus that he has not inflated a scum lead wagon?
b) what is the real difference between a 1 or 2 person wagon anyway? at this point?

Anyway, my point is, it's all bad, there's no need to worry about this being a bad wagon.

[Swiss]

Why would you be concerned about our being overly harsh on him?

Why would you not be concerned about tunneling a player? You just pushing for any lynch? I only want to lynch scum, you see.

[mallowgeno]

@ Mallow

: What do you think of Zero's explanations for the intent behind your questions, and also what do you think of his answering for you? Do you consider it necessary, and why/why not? Also, why is voting Chevre better than not voting? Finally, you would appear to think AGar scum due to your vote after his comment that your questions had only a 1% probability of being useful. I would find it instructive if you could tell me how you worked this out.

He's right is what I think of his explanations. I was trying to see if any red flags went up. I think his answers were pretty standard. I've played with him before (well that is to say I modded a game he was in) so I think that he's giving off a town aura atm.

Do I consider what necessary?

You're making little sense on why was I voting Chevre. I only voted her for a random vote. I only random vote if I've got nothing to lose.

I think he's mocking me therefore I voted for him. Mocking, FMPOV, is a scumtell or a very ignorant town.

[AGar]

@ All: Please keep things civil in this game - from what I've seen, players in this game seem quite keen to get personal, which is really not necessary. Emotions can lead to people losing objectivity, which is the only weapon that town really has most of the time.

Hey, I hold no emotion whatsoever in my games! I just call people pathetic and idiotic in newbie games when they deserve it!

Anywho.

---

Mocking, FMPOV, is a scumtell or a very ignorant town.

lolwut?

---

@mallow - Please explain to me how a question like "Is the sky really blue" or "Pickles or Pineapples" can provide some kind of 'red flag' ? Because I fail to see your supposed logic.

---

@Zero - Would you like a shovel?

---

@ZeroWaggoners - I fail to see the direct scum connection in ZeroFang's posts. I understand some of what he has said has been scummy, but where are we coming to the conclusion that he's 100% scum already again?

In other words: Don't rush to definitive conclusions just because he made one slip.

---

@Chevre - Bad logic is bad. Pointing out questions are bad != reason to not answer them. As I said in my post, I was 99% sure they were useless, but there was that 1% that he might have actually had some ridiculous rhyme or reason. Why am I going to deny any player their opportunity to help the town? He could have found something completely insightful in my answers. You're right - by saying the questions are useless but answering them anyway, I am most definitely covering myself in case they do turn out to be useful. What's the matter with that?

---

@gonnano - Your post is lols. Srsly. I'll be waiting for you when you actually decide that you want to put that neuron of yours to use in the game.

VOTE: Chevre

For trying to make up scumtells out of nothing.

[ZeroFang]

Unvote; Vote: Seacore

Lol @ omgus.

It's not an omgus vote. I'm voting him because he called me scum without a significant other reason, and because of his overall record here. Looking back over his posts, he voted Quoi after his self vote, quickly jumped on my wagon without explaining himself, and then argued that a slight change in wording to clarify my original thoughts was highly scummy. The reason I called it ad hom was because it's not based on anything else. A slight clarification within the reasonable limits of my wording isn't scummy, and calling me scum

in place

of an argument is a form of ad hom. You're calling me scum instead of arguing I'm scum.

I find all of the above behaviors (quick bandwagoning, nitpicking, aggressive play without reason) scummy behavior. That's why I voted him.

Please note that this is responding to everything he posted before I went to bed.

I see. You have quite effectively clarified what you thought Mallow's questions were about, thank you. What are your views on the effectiveness of such a tactic?

It wasn't a tactic. I was proposing that his questions might have been getting meta reads, and in reality that's again irrelevant to the game itself unless the questions actually do something (in this case it seems to put everyone who said they're useless on death row). Mallow doesn't seem to care. If he did I'd apologize.

a) how does he know that person isn't scum, and thus that he has not inflated a scum lead wagon?

I don't, but that vote was cast during the RV stage. The person who voted him hasn't posted anything since.

b) what is the real difference between a 1 or 2 person wagon anyway? at this point?

I think one person in a mini does make a difference. Obviously you don't agree.

[mallowgeno]

Mocking, FMPOV, is a scumtell or a very ignorant town.

lolwut?

---

@mallow - Please explain to me how a question like "Is the sky really blue" or "Pickles or Pineapples" can provide some kind of 'red flag' ? Because I fail to see your supposed logic.

Well apparently it's too sophisticated for you to understand so I won't bother wasting my time explaining it to you.

[gonnano]

Hello again. My vote for Agar was just to help get the game through the RVS, and my "logic" was intended as a tongue-in-cheek statement, in response to the excessive (IMO) discussion of his answer to the "good liar" question. Sorry for any confusion that may have caused. (BTW, I considered the discussion excessive because his answer really wasn't worth bringing up at all)

HOWEVER, I now have a shiny new-and-improved REAL VOTE because ZeroFang has gone out of his way to cram as many scummy posts as he can into Day 1.

Unvote
Vote: ZeroFang

backtracking, overly agressive rebuttal, and OMGUS voting are among his crimes, as well as making me look like his scumbuddy.

And I'm a big fan of the self-vote and nonsensical questions, mainly because they worked.

[gonnano]

I've been waiting for that neuron myself, AGar, but I'm starting to think that it's just not gonna happen.

[AGar]

I've been waiting for that neuron myself, AGar, but I'm starting to think that it's just not gonna happen.

Lol. I like the sense of humor.

---

Mocking, FMPOV, is a scumtell or a very ignorant town.

lolwut?

---

@mallow - Please explain to me how a question like "Is the sky really blue" or "Pickles or Pineapples" can provide some kind of 'red flag' ? Because I fail to see your supposed logic.

Well apparently it's too sophisticated for you to understand so I won't bother wasting my time explaining it to you.

Lol, I don't think I'm alone in asking how you planned on getting anything from those questions.

[ZeroFang]

backtracking

How did I backtrack? I never once back tracked. It's the equivalent of saying "a few" when you were talking about 4 or 5. Maybe 4 or 5 doesn't quite count as a "few" in your book, but it's not a reason to lynch somebody, and it's not backtracking. I've already addressed this. Please read.

OMGUS voting

I've explained my reasons very thoroughly in the post right above you. Did you just skip over it or are you blatantly ignoring it?

overly aggressive rebuttal

Again with the did you read my posts? I've been very clearly explaining myself this whole time. You guys ignore everything I post and continue with the same accusations that I've already addressed as bogus claims. It should come as no surprise to you that I'm a bit frustrated.

making me look like his scumbuddy

As soon as I'm dead you won't look like my scum buddy. Vanilla townies don't have any "buddies". That's also a real OMGUS reason to vote. I smell irony in the air.

Can we please stop the bogus reasoning and try and find some

actual

mafia? At this point you guys are so gung-ho on lynching me that you're forgetting everyone else.

[Lateralus22]

With me, you're going to be dealing with someone who posts as if I'm in question too, because to all of you, I am. It eliminates the bias I might have if I were mafia, or if I were a power role, or if I were a SK, or even if I were a vanilla townie. The only reason I even brought that up was because of the (fail) RQS. Those are useless to get any sort of read on me. I'll answer differently every time, even if all other things are the same.

So, you're a liar who's hiding information. Do you have anything to hide? I also don't like how you're saying your going to answer every question regardless of who it is asked to, do you not think people can think for themselves?

Although I guess that last part is slightly irrevelent.

You said you did not read your role pm so no one can read on you correct? I'm going to call BS here, otherwise you're not playing to win. Seems like an excuse to get everyone to not try to read you.

I think he's mocking me therefore I voted for him. Mocking, FMPOV, is a scumtell or a very ignorant town.

Do you feel threatened by him? It seems like you're getting irritated very easily. I also disagree with this scum tell, could you please point out a few examples in game to support your claim?

Well apparently it's too sophisticated for you to understand so I won't bother wasting my time explaining it to you.

I doubt the explanation would be that complicated, and you wouldn't be wasting your time if it help move the town forward to catch scum. So how about it, or do you have nothing and you are just making stuff up?

@ Lateralus, since you gave a somewhat substantial answer to one of Mallow's questions: how does the role given to you influence your preference of town or mafia? Have you played much mafia before?

Just a few games a while back, but I've read a few around here. I'm currently in two other games on this site atm but both are still in progress. The role you're given could make a big impact, let's say if I get a town power role I'd be slightly more interested in the game than as a VT plus I'd have the responsibility of using my role wisely for the town. I'd also rather have a mafia power role than a simple goon.

[Seacore]

Mallo, stop trolling with your pathetic questions, the rest of us are trying to scum hunt.

I think one person in a mini does make a difference. Obviously you don't agree.

Even on the assumption that one person makes a difference.
Your argument is that scum can control bandwagons if we don't all vote together.
How is this not potentially you letting scum control where you place your vote?

[Seacore]

Also sorry, I just saw this as reason why the OMGUS vote was not OMGUS

he voted Quoi after his self vote, quickly jumped on my wagon without explaining himself

1. I voted Quoi during RVS. I was the second post of the game. It was actually not even an Random Vote, although I wanted it to look like one. I was waiting for somebody to bring it up as a "wow, that's totally scummy" as, in my experience, those people are usually scum. I'm not going to use that as evidence of your scuminess though, because you didn't say it straight away, you went looking for it later (which is a level of scuminess on it's own, but anyway)
2. I did not quickly jump on your wagon without explaining myself. I said I agreed with JVW's suspicions. Also, it was the 2nd page of Day 1, you don't actually need a huge case to place your first serious vote. I moved from my "quoi trap" vote to "yes, this guy looks scummy" vote.

Anyway, if you want us to stop building the case against you, find a case on somebody else. Your case against me is weak.

[Seacore]

Also Also,

My bandwagoning is bad, because scum bandwagon.
Zero's choice to bandwagon instead of going with his first choice of scum is good, because if you strike out on your own, scum can control the game.

In essence:
Seacore Bandwagoning is evidence that he's scum.
ZeroFang Bandwagoning is evidence that he's town.

I understand now.

Let's please procede to the lynch.

[Lowell]

unvote, vote zero

Just once I'd like to see a quickhammer, and not a "OMG YOU'RE TRYING TO LYNCH SOMEONE OMG UR SCUM!". We'll see what happens.