Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[Plum]

Ooh.

Vote: Plum

Noticed something pretty awesome. First person to point it out gets town points.

Ooooh, me! Me!

No seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about. No one else seems to, either. Guess you'll just have to give the points to yourself and tell us all what you're seeing, 'kay?

Why.did.you.claimed.this?

/facepalm.

If your claim is true and you are town, I can only see this as the worst anti-town move ever. What do you think town is going to do with that knowledge? /doublefacepalm.

Really! /again, facepalm.

And this is coming from the person who shot Spyrex

and unnecessarily claimed it

. /facepalm

While I agree that it's very facepalm. I'll need to recheck specific circumstances . . . no, looking at it it's really compatible with VI behavior, and even compatible with mildly poor Townplay. Chrono advocated worshiping Egyptian Gods, was asked why, and said he had a nice ability when boosted. He was asked to finish the claim (of what boost he'd get) and complied. I agree that optimally he shouldn't have, but it's an understandable tactical blunder and I firmly believe it's a nulltell.

Also, did I mention that your logic behind claiming the SpyreX kill sucks? Because it does. Unless we were on the verge of lynching someone important because we mistakenly thought he had links to the SpyreX kill, that info would have been much more useful to Town later in the game and kept under wraps until then. Your tactical blunder is at least as bad as Chrono's and possibly even more scum-indicative.

Hm. Wait, because I said six scum yesterday and ABR says his ability shows six scum today I'm likely scum? Oh hell, I was mostly going on instinct based on the Large Theme I was running (which has since ended), which had (well, among other things) a five-man scumteam in a 25-player game. Which was underpowered, but partly because it lacked good scum powerroles. So I took a stab at six. If Parama's calculating definite-scum Plum out of this he has his head screwed on wrong. Guessing that if there's a single scumteam in a Theme game about this size is six or maybe seven is entirely reasonable from a Town perspective, and statistically it's likely that with many Townies trying to give their best guesses at least one will say six. That it happens to be right is partly because it's a fairly reasonable number of scum to have in the first place. The logic behind calling it a strong scumtell is highly faulty. If Parama's talking about something different, I have no clue what it is.

PREVIEW EDIT:

Parama, I was considering Nik's apparent lack of viable suspects with his extremely strong suspicion of you earlier. I wanted to feel out whether his opinions were evolving, how they were evolving, or if he was displaying scummy inconsistencies in his scumhunting. While I saw where his suspicions of you were coming from (I asked him to explain some stuff Day 1, which he did), I did not find them vote-warranting and frankly did not find you to be my top suspect. I was still confused by what happened to Ort, who was by far my top suspect Day 2 - if we'd gotten some sort of flip on him today, just Rolecop, whatever - that would have been my springboard. Especially towards the beginning of today I felt a bit rudderless precisely because a no-Lynch Day 1 simply has that effect, on me at least.

Vote: totallynotmafia

Top suspect besides FlipScythe, who needs to tell us lots of important information and Snowy, who claimed some sort of Vig and whom I'm still feeling out (but who feels strongly strongly off. If Chrono's Town-cooperative and all, we may in the future have the option of being slightly more liberal in lynching claimed strong powerroles because it gives us a little safety net).

Totallynotmafia - what are your thoughts on Snowy at this point?

[Nikanor]

Parama, I was considering Nik's apparent lack of viable suspects with his extremely strong suspicion of you earlier. I wanted to feel out whether his opinions were evolving, how they were evolving, or if he was displaying scummy inconsistencies in his scumhunting. While I saw where his suspicions of you were coming from (I asked him to explain some stuff Day 1, which he did), I did not find them vote-warranting and frankly did not find you to be my top suspect. I was still confused by what happened to Ort, who was by far my top suspect Day 2 - if we'd gotten some sort of flip on him today, just Rolecop, whatever - that would have been my springboard. Especially towards the beginning of today I felt a bit rudderless precisely because a no-Lynch Day 1 simply has that effect, on me at least.

I thought you were just being helpful, but that works too.

[Plum]

Oh, yeah, got off track there. Anyway, long story short, that post you quoted was directed at seeing Nik's reaction/feelings on you, not at surreptitiously starting a wagon on you.

[totallynotmafia]

lol, thanks DTM.

Plum, I've already said that I think it's quite likely that Snow_Bunny is a SK as I don't believe a vig would out themselves like that so early through fear of being NKed, but a bulletproof SK obviously wouldn't be worried about that and may want to set up a vig claim early. It is still a bad move by an SK to claim the kill so early as well I guess, but I think we can direct SB's kill for the moment and deal with whether she is a vig or an SK later.

I think it's interesting what DarkStalker said about a zombie cult, that would be a cool game mechanic if Chrono was a cult recruiter and recruits people from the graveyard.

[Snow_Bunny]

@S_B: Did you feel SpyreX was scummy or no?

Yes. My first read on him was neutral, but that changed after a second read during N1.

[Plum]

TTNM - My mistake, am tired over here. Lemme think you over and I'll call back tomorrow, okay?

[Snow_Bunny]

lol, thanks DTM.

Plum, I've already said that I think it's quite likely that Snow_Bunny is a SK as I don't believe a vig would out themselves like that so early through fear of being NKed, but a bulletproof SK obviously wouldn't be worried about that and may want to set up a vig claim early. It is still a bad move by an SK to claim the kill so early as well I guess, but I think we can direct SB's kill for the moment and deal with whether she is a vig or an SK later.

I think it's interesting what DarkStalker said about a zombie cult, that would be a cool game mechanic if Chrono was a cult recruiter and recruits people from the graveyard.

Just a quick comment: if you don't think a vig would out themselves like that, what makes you think a SK would when there's so much at stake? I mean, the SK is usually alone, meaning that he can't risk being lynched, unlike townies. Well, I mean, if we put it in a balance, it's far more riskier for a SK to get attention than for a townie. Just saying, your reasoning sounds totally off. If you want to be suspicious of me because I shot Spyrex, then go ahead. But saying that you are suspicious of me because I outed myself like that is just plain forced.

[Plum]

The thing is, when a behavior makes no sense from a Town point of view and no sense from a scum point of view it's more reasonable to believe it comes from scum than if it does make some degree of sense from a Town point of view. Not saying I'm leaning towards being very sure you're the SK but still. And have we rules out you being Mafia? We haven't (though circumstances would be needed, and then again we probably have plenty of odd circumstances in general in this game).

[Nikanor]

Unvote. Vote: totallynotmafia.

Snow_Bunny is jester serial killer. tnm is mafia.

Also, I'm inclined to say that if something makes no sense as either alignment, it's probable that the person in question is hiding something that makes the action make sense.

[Chronopie]

I think it's interesting what DarkStalker said about a zombie cult, that would be a cool game mechanic if Chrono was a cult recruiter and recruits people from the graveyard.

That would be one screwed up cult, considering that it would depend on Egyptian dominance for it to work at all.

--

Jester SK? what have you been smoking? I want some

--

Random Theory Time: SK-cult group of men. They recruit men, but kill gods.

[Parama]

Chrono, that is retarded and unless you have inside info on this matter you are just distracting the town.

[DTMaster]

Fuck

@MO
1. Why? I have a running theory. I highly doubt that one god faction is entirely scum, because after 2 days, we can break the scum team if this is true.

Scum is more likely within multiple god factions, or within the man faction them selves. The worshiping element makes the god factions fight within themselves, adding a smoke screen for scum and lets them fan fire fights between god factions.

Now if this is the former, then scum would worship their faction that benifits them. If it's the latter, then worshiping provides an

unknown element to the game. It's a power that the town can exploit and it means it could grant good things, or bad things for the town

For example: Endless gave town the ability to talk through the night.

Why wouldn't scum worship, especially on day 1? If scum are scattered across factions, that means the worship powers has a town benefit to them. Remember my day 1 talks with SK? Why I felt he was scum?

Scum are more likely to freak out over unknown powerups because it might benefit town

Hence SK was suspicious because he focused on the worship element last day.

2. Why do you think I want you investigated. You fall under the same branch as SK, but in less severity. MO you haven't dropped off that investigation list of "bad vibes". Just because we don't know what each faction grants, doesn't mean we should ignore it. We should test it. If it can confirm factions as town, then it's awesome. If we mess up and it benefits scum? Then we find out where scum are.

Hence: not voting = scummy.

3.

@CryMeARiver, you do realize that Tarhalindur claimed that he got targeted with a night kill last night, right? Incidentally, do you think you know why ortolan didn't get killed by the lynch yesterday or is your power unique to the best of your knowledge?

No did you know Tar said a kill target on him explains a no kill.

That doesn't mean someone targeted Tar

.

In fact:

How would Tar know this information

.

This bugs me, since you're deflecting the missing kill like that.

4. Whoa.

I guess I will point out that scum already have some information just from the claims and their inherent knowledge of the scum team. Certainly much more than most if not all of the town does. We help town's information resources more with a divinity claim than we do scum's information resources.

A divinity claim doesn't help at all. It just says who's belonging to which god faction. That doesn't even narrow down the field for scum people. You'd might as well ask for full claims and sort through it.

Like your role of role cop is odd, since a town role cop is uncommon. What bothers me is you confirmed SK as town so it seems ok. You claiming that SK is her role isn't that spectacular since it's post flip.

DS
1. Retracted is a inside joke from Mind Screw 4.

@Blaze
Your scumdar is pinging? Well it should we have 6 scum and 5 neutrals from ABR. If you go by the broad definition of scum, thats 11 (ie anti-town). I'm a lyncher. I'm technically anti town even though my target is the mafia GF. Why? I leave the game. Tar leaves the game. If the GF dies, that's a 3 person turn over right there without extra kills.

@CMAR
1.

Because 3 kills all town sided seems highly unlikely to me. Is that okay?

Um, only 2 kills happened. When did you confirm 3 kills CMAR?

@Chrono
That's like "So I heard" tvtrope or "supiciously specific denial" TV Trope. It's from you and I can't read if you've slipped or just claimed cult.

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, as town with no information about which faction is going to provide the town useful abilities or what not I've got no reason to vote for any one faction over any other faction. If I could either help or harm with action and I don't have a way to sort that out why act? Clearly I agree that if there's a power out there for town to exploit then we should be trying to exploit it. That's why I'm suggesting the divinity claim (with worship effects though you seem to be ignoring that.) Day one I didn't push for a non-worship but I saw no reason to pick any faction. Were I scum with more information I imagine that I would have had a reason to worship some way in particular. That knowledge scum have makes choosing more likely, not less. Someone was going to get worshiped and scum have every reason to steer that worship towards powers they know will benefit them.

As far as Tarhalindur goes, you're his partner so you should know this better than I do but I certainly took this from the start of the day to be evidence that he thought he'd been targeted for a kill:

Also, anybody want to fess up to burning out one of my bulletproof shields? I mean, I die at the end of Day 3 anyways...

Are you saying that I'm reading that wrong for some reason? It certainly looks like he's saying he knew he was the target of a kill attempt.

Once again, I know that you're better at reading and reasoning than this. At this point I'm working with the idea that you should be town despite the fact that I dislike most of your play because it fits the overall shape of the game better at this point (this is subject to change after day three depending on who is and isn't about.) I'd appreciate it if you used that ability to read and reason when making your posts.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[DTMaster]

Fuck. Oh i missed that part in Tar's message. I'd assume Tar just speculated with this quote:

And you're neglecting the possibility of the Mafia ramming their kill into a doctor protection or bulletproof shield WHY, exactly?

Since I'm on this page. I'm behind on this info, therefore they're being dumb.

Anyways, I highly doubt that each god faction would want to have their divinities claim. It's painting a giant kill target to get rid of the major gods if they are town (and now cult target). We may however have representatives of each divinity claim the abilities. Worse comes to worse, we worship and find out. It is possible each faction doesn't know what blessings they give, or if they change each night.

You do realize that your theory on scum, is as valid as my theory as scum who doesn't want to worship. How do we test this theory? We worship and find out. If you are seriously arguing for scum directing worships, the only one who's directing worships is ABR.

If we extend your theory out, does it apply to ABR good sir?

[DTMaster]

Fuck. Actually, Troll, what about my posts haven't been valid?

Like catching CMAR in active voting is not valid? Saying Dram reads as a person who's only jabbing in once in a while isn't valid? How about my SK-scum on god theory? Hmm, and my flags aren't valid to reread on.

Like, what about my cases are

wrong on your logical level?

. Please. go indepth. I'm trying to scum hunt, but when I reread: You're town even though I find your game play scummy, it doesn't really tell me why.

[BlazezRb]

@Blaze
Your scumdar is pinging? Well it should we have 6 scum and 5 neutrals from ABR. If you go by the broad definition of scum, thats 11 (ie anti-town). I'm a lyncher. I'm technically anti town even though my target is the mafia GF. Why? I leave the game. Tar leaves the game. If the GF dies, that's a 3 person turn over right there without extra kills.quote]

Wait, are you saying GF must die to live, or are you saying GF must live so you live.

Hence: not voting = scummy.

Well do we know what each ablility does, what if it changes everytime, if we vote for the same god (I doubt it, but it still would be an option).

Random Theory Time: SK-cult group of men. They recruit men, but kill gods.

I need whatever you are smoking right away.

Just a quick comment: if you don't think a vig would out themselves like that, what makes you think a SK would when there's so much at stake? I mean, the SK is usually alone, meaning that he can't risk being lynched, unlike townies. Well, I mean, if we put it in a balance, it's far more riskier for a SK to get attention than for a townie. Just saying, your reasoning sounds totally off. If you want to be suspicious of me because I shot Spyrex, then go ahead. But saying that you are suspicious of me because I outed myself like that is just plain forced.

Agreed

Vote: TotalyNotMafia

[Chronopie]

@Chrono
That's like "So I heard" tvtrope or "supiciously specific denial" TV Trope. It's from you and I can't read if you've slipped or just claimed cult.

lol, I've never even visited the TV trope website.

and no, I'm saying that TNM's suggestion that I'm a resurrection cultist is fucked up, as the standard cult wincon requires all killing roles dead, and =50% of town. and in order for me to 'recruit' were the suggestion true, I'd need for Egypt to be worship dominant, which would be inherently easily broken.

If you mean my random theory: why would an Egyptian god have inside knowledge of a cult of man?

--

and a three man turnover doesn't make it any more anti-town if you're already a neutral.

--

and on the Larger divinity benefits: idk what blessing Egyptians as a group give the town.

[DTMaster]

Fuck.

@Blaze.
If I kill the GF. I win at the game and we leave the game. Hence we get removed from the game since we win. If the GF dies before that, we become confirmed townies and our win condition changes.

If we die before the GF dies, we lose at the game. If we die after the GF dies but with the town win con, we win with the town in the end game.

Well do we know what each ablility does, what if it changes everytime, if we vote for the same god (I doubt it, but it still would be an option).

WAIT WUT? how do you know this?

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: Urk, nvm. I misread. Fucking question should be ignored at the bottom.

[Mighty Orbots]

@DTMaster, I'm saying that scum are more likely to have information about what the worship votes do than town and are more likely to want particular factions to be worshiped as a result. They are therefore more likely to vote for a particular pantheon. Albert B. Rampage leading the worship votes is another matter but given his lack of direction on day one I'm not worried about him. He's picked out one pantheon for today but clearly I'm interested in getting more information to work with.

There's no way to test what the scum know offhand but there's no reason to think that they wouldn't have extra knowledge. I think that your theory about scum who don't want to worship is significantly less valid actually. They're the informed minority after all.

I also don't care whether the individual pantheons want to claim or not, I'm looking for what's good for the town overall. What I'm advocating that we do is demand a divinity claim with worship actions from everyone. The gods don't need to worry about getting killed individually because there should be enough of them that they're unlikely to get singled out and even if one or two of them were overwhelmingly good for the town we're pretty likely to have town protection type roles to keep them safe.

As for your posts, the things that I don't like them are the details that you're getting wrong. I've been pointing them out as we go. You've been at least as much a distraction this game as you've been useful (though I'll admit that this has lessened recently.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[DTMaster]

Fuck

@Chrono
1. It's anti-town because the player number decreases rapidly, bringing town closer to mylo/lylo levels.

Hence, you want the lyncher to be done with at the early game as town. Late game, if the lyncher wins, that basically is an extra kill to the player list. Yes our target is on scum. Imagine if the target wasn't, that pushes the player number down, a lot. we have the potential for 6 players to be lost in 1 day

3 kills in night. 1 GF lynched. 2 lynchers leave the game.

2. Just because Spy had inside knowledge of the cult doesn't mean: god factions are indicative of cult/scum faction. That's a fallacy. It's better to assume god factions and scum are independent. Drawing too many links, especially false ones, lock us down into tunnel mode. Scum escape if they are outside this tunnel.

[DTMaster]

Fuck

@MO
1.

Informed minority doesn't mean informed about everything.

Universe Mafia. People said teleporting people was scummy. They were scum. Why? People who got teleported between game A and game B and if they were scum were being separated from their groups. This applies here in worships.

The fear of the unknown is stronger in scum.

2. We can test our theories with worships in itself. Think about it. We have an odd set of worship %s. We know that people are able to no worship. We have weird weighting occuring.

3. Dude

As for your posts, the things that I don't like them are the details that you're getting wrong. I've been pointing them out as we go. You've been at least as much a distraction this game as you've been useful (though I'll admit that this has lessened recently.)

There is a difference between calling me out on being wrong and calling me out to disagree with.

It implies you know the alignment of Manho, Nikanor, Parama, Dramonic, SK, CMAR, Ortlan, ABR, how the worships work, why we should/shouldn't worship,

.

I dislike this post. Like, a lot. It reads as: I'm hiding something here.

[DTMaster]

Fuck. I should add, Raj, SK before the flip, Fate, etc who I'm missing.

The whole day 1 you were focused on my PR and my breaking of the PR. Like, good MO I don't remember much scum hunting outside of the DTM tunnel fest you did.

[DTMaster]

Hmm, fuck, I'm raising MO to flag level. I'm rereading him. The whole tunneling on me with the: He is a VI distraction argument, is in itself a smoke screen argument.

It reads as scum, being active, without actually scum hunting. If MO resolves this status on me, why isn't he moving on and moving to scum hunting? When I apply the question:

Why is town-MO focused on this detail, I don't understand it. But if I apply, why would MO do this if he was scum-MO, it makes more logical sense.

I'm applying empathy to MO, and I don't see it.

[Fate]

I've been neglecting this game, SOWWY GUYS LA LAND SUCKS.

So....

Iec is AGAINST mass god claim? Huh imagine that.

I think Troll's proposal is rather pro-town and I would be ALL DOWN for a mass deity claim so we can figure out who to worship.

OH HAI SOCRATES. Yeah I agree on Iec, its just that there are better targets right now.

I'd have to see a vote count but I don't think my dram wagon has any speed on it.

Unvote:
Vote: Totallynotmafia

ALSO: DTM, Troll is just tech like that and good and reading alignments IMO. Please stop this town on town fight before its too late.