Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[Katy]

This is a very dumb idea.
.

This. Outing all the gods and claiming all their powers is a nice way to give scum a kill order. I don't mind claiming divinity/mortal as I presume that there are powers among the mortals and that doesn't reveal anything about who is a better kill to scum, but outing all the worship powers at once seems idiotic. Yes, it would allow us to pick and choose worship, but it would also give scum a ton of info to use when evaluating who to kill. If anyone's worship power involves protecting other people they are dead meat.

Not sure what to think about Chronopie's claim. It makes him seem pretty pro-town, but I have this nagging suspicion that his willingness to claim means that he's scum claiming a power to seem pro-town. His power in and of itself is not strictly pro-town, especially given the uncertainty of the resurrection.

@Chronopie

: I'm trying to understand your power to better evaluate it. At the time you resurrect someone, what stage of their kill reveal will they be in. In other words, how much would we know about them? You may have said it in one of your posts but I am not totally clear on it after reading through them.

I am worried the power would allow you to resurrect a scum player without town realizing they are scum.

@Darkstalker:

Do you think Mina is likely to flip scum? If so, why?

[Snow_Bunny]

Alright.

I am indeed an Egyptian aligned God. and when juiced I have a resurrection (of others) ability. Which is why I was the mod asking about the duration in the Dead-not-Buried Zone.

Why.did.you.claimed.this?

/facepalm.

If your claim is true and you are town, I can only see this as the worst anti-town move ever. What do you think town is going to do with that knowledge? /doublefacepalm.

Really! /again, facepalm.

And this is coming from the person who shot Spyrex. /facepalm

[Iecerint]

OK, I've gone back to read ooba's iso. dram is KIND OF right -- he's still pushing the interpretation a little re: me, but not as much as I remembered. I DO think ooba's view of me starts to change after the infodump, but not quite the way I remembered:

@ Iece
- You did follow up on Mina.
- Disagree on the scumMina implies scumO or scumDTM. Do not think a scumMina would even mention this if she knew they were recruited.
- 601 - “He asked which of the players in the QT had a specific rolename, and he told us that we shouldn't worship ABR.” – Did he say you shouldn’t worship as per ABR’s plan or worship ABR as such?
- 666 - “Ooba's switch to voting me when I basically posted an expanded version of his case on CMAR did make me O.o a little.” - I thought I voted only CMAR and Mina the entire game.

~~~

I am not sure of what to make about Iece's info dump. I can see ABR-Iece as people with opposing wincons or something.

~~~

I agree with Iece that CMAR's play is different this game.

I cannot describe it in words. While I wouldn't attribute that evil joker picture to his play, it certainly is off. Not my primary candidate for a lynch, but CMAR is someone to keep an eye on.

While I am surprised at Iece choosing to pursue this case and voting CMAR over other people he finds suspicious, his case exactly isn't out of thin air.

In the first. his rhetoric is like someone expressing a difference of opinion rather than a perceived conversation with scum. He also shows evidence of taking my infodump seriously by asking an (important IMO) detail that I hadn't quite made clear. (I mention the latter just because it gave him +like points independent of dram's concerns.)

In the second, it looks like he's thinking I was 3rd party with ABR or something. This is the part that's a little different from how I remembered it.

In the third, he defends my view of CMAR in a kind of unnecessary way (except that it's consistent with his earlier CMAR mini-case, I guess), consistent with thinking I'm not a nasty person.

But you're right; he still wanted to kill Mina in his penultimate post. That's a good point.

I would like ooba to justify the evolution of his reads on the players dram listed in more detail (i.e. more than "who they talked about and didn't."

[Iecerint]

Also:

1. Want to hear from the new Percy.
2. Want to hear from the new O.

[Snow_Bunny]

I wouldn't mind an Iece lynch. If we fail, and worship Egyptians, I can erase that mistake lol. Assuming that I don't get killed prior to that point. and that there's no scum role which accelerates burial.

...

if it wasn't for your claim I would have shoot you for being so blatantly scummy! "Hey guys, let's just lynch player X, and if he isn't scum then I revive him next day and not only we lose one lynch but the option of reviving another player!" So, you just want to waste a lynch, that is? And, I'm loving the "Assuming that I don't get killed prior to that point. and that there's no scum role which accelerates burial" part.

^ Feel free to ignore my input. I post before thinking far too often.

Yeah, sure, why not. And now that we're at it, why not just forget every other scummy post in the game?

MFoS: Chronopie

[Snow_Bunny]

Dude is obv town.

How is chronopie obvtown?

More like obvnewbscum. Still, with that claim an outright lynch is risky, when there's also a small chance Chronopie is really VI.

Btw, I'm posting in small posts as its easy to do so while in class.

[CryMeARiver]

EBWOP: Actually, only Tar's actions/alignment is really confirmed. S_B is fucking not confirmed. :p But claiming the kill is weird.

So you are suggesting that all of the kills last night, all of which were claimed, were town kills and mafia did nothing?

[VasudeVa]

My god, these walls suck. I have been reading and rereading massively due to these walls. Walls are antitown, stop it unless absolutely necessary. It is vey demoralizing to analyze one wall after the other.

Vote: Ooba

Ooba feels more like scum here. I've seen him play both(Victorian Vamp, Greek Mythology), Ooba Scum tries very hard to be consistent, however slips up sometimes. Ooba town is VERY consistent.

[CryMeARiver]

My god, these walls suck. I have been reading and rereading massively due to these walls. Walls are antitown, stop it unless absolutely necessary. It is vey demoralizing to analyze one wall after the other.

Vote: Ooba

Ooba feels more like scum here. I've seen him play both(Victorian Vamp, Greek Mythology), Ooba Scum tries very hard to be consistent, however slips up sometimes. Ooba town is VERY consistent.

Did you just meta vote on page 48? You have no opinion at all?

@S_B: Did you feel SpyreX was scummy or no?

[Tarhalindur]

EBWOP: Actually, only Tar's actions/alignment is really confirmed. S_B is fucking not confirmed. :p But claiming the kill is weird.

So you are suggesting that all of the kills last night, all of which were claimed, were town kills and mafia did nothing?

And you're neglecting the possibility of the Mafia ramming their kill into a doctor protection or bulletproof shield WHY, exactly?

Unvote, Vote: CMAR

, both because I want to give you some time to answer and because I'm not yet sure whether you're worth unloading a kill into.

[Mighty Orbots]

@Tarhalidur, CryMeARiver claims to be unlynchable today (as he did yesterday though apparently something has changed about his understanding of it.) Given the end result yesterday I'm not inclined to spend today trying to lynch someone making that claim at this point.

Also, you should want a mass divinity claim given your claimed win condition. Care to present an argument for it?

@Iecerint and Katy, I realize that the current site meta goes against any sort of mass claim this early in the game for various reasons but it's important to consider our situation when making such decisions. In this case I'm very comfortable feeling that we've got a high powered town. Having the gods claim what powers will activate for them if we worship them won't be likely to make them targets individually just because there are likely to be more excellent powers than scum are going to have kills or roleblocks to do anything about. If everyone's telling the truth our worship is going to decide between things like night talking (which given the timing of the flips is very powerful for discussing potential daybreak actions) and a resurrection ability. In fact we can assume that the overall powers involved will be greater than just those. Town making the choice of powers available deliberately is a powerful tool.

It seems likely that some or all of the gods will have powers that aren't linked to their being worshiped. I'm not calling for them to claim those. I'm also not calling for the rest of the town to claim anything offhand. There should be among those abilities some of a protective nature (docs, roleblocks, bus drivers, redirects, watchers, VasudeVa's type of power.) If we know what divine abilities are out there the town can make use of powers of that sort more efficiently.

The worship is a completely novel aspect of this game; we shouldn't be treating it like we would normal abilities. Trying to work in the dark might pay off but I'm not at all convinced it's our best course of action. We certainly don't have to be guessing at this if we don't want to and a coordinated powerful town is hugely dangerous to scum.

@everyone, I'm not particularly sold on reasons to be voting Iecerint or ooba at this time. I feel like both of them are here and will be readable as we go. I don't agree with everything either of them have to say but at least they're being transparent about much of their thought process. The players who worry me more at this time are the ones who aren't doing anything.

@DTMaster, why do you think that scum would be more likely not to submit worship votes on day one? Mighty Orbots didn't submit a vote because we couldn't see a clear benefit at the time and the guidance we received from Albert B. Rampage was vague enough that it only ruled out one option. We didn't see a good reason to think that one worship over any others would benefit the town given what we knew.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[CryMeARiver]

EBWOP: Actually, only Tar's actions/alignment is really confirmed. S_B is fucking not confirmed. :p But claiming the kill is weird.

So you are suggesting that all of the kills last night, all of which were claimed, were town kills and mafia did nothing?

And you're neglecting the possibility of the Mafia ramming their kill into a doctor protection or bulletproof shield WHY, exactly?

Unvote, Vote: CMAR

, both because I want to give you some time to answer and because I'm not yet sure whether you're worth unloading a kill into.

Because 3 kills all town sided seems highly unlikely to me. Is that okay?

Yeah I'll be voting Old Godsx2

x2 comes from...?

Nikanor shouldn't have been voting for Mina JUST to get some sort of magical information, he should vote for her because he thinks she's scum.

Don't like this statement. It's pretty much about scum going after people for something that looks town, but actually isn't a valid case. In this, Katy is narrowly defining a "reason" why townies should vote, and then attacking anyone who doesn't fit that definition.

SB: Answer my question

[Mighty Orbots]

@CryMeARiver, you do realize that Tarhalindur claimed that he got targeted with a night kill last night, right? Incidentally, do you think you know why ortolan didn't get killed by the lynch yesterday or is your power unique to the best of your knowledge?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[inHimshallibe]

Deitydammit, I guess I ought to start reading.

[Iecerint]

@ MO, my thinking is that operating from presumed balance gives the scum no information whatsoever and probably has the comparable effect. The effect may even be better than that from choosing "good" worship abilities, because there's less risk that scum would be able to manipulate the worship in their favor (e.g. by fakeclaiming "good" abilities, or by having protown-seeming abilities, etc). (This is different from most "avoid scum manipulation!" arguments because the balance assumption DOES suggest non-random, deterministic worship.)

The flipside is that there may NOT be balance to start (which is maybe possible since there's already lots of QTs claimed, but GOO doesn't appear to have a QT, which implies a certain kind of asymmetry).

Hmm, I'll wait to see what others think.

@ VV, you have to make votes with Red test. use

and then [/ color].

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint as long as you're keeping an open mind about it I'm happy enough for now. Hopefully others will share some opinions soon as well. It's the sort of thing that we should do as soon as possible if we decide to do it today. Otherwise I should drop it as soon as I realize that it's not going to happen.

I guess I will point out that scum already have some information just from the claims and their inherent knowledge of the scum team. Certainly much more than most if not all of the town does. We help town's information resources more with a divinity claim than we do scum's information resources.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Iecerint]

By the logic in your second paragraph, claiming is in general advantageous for town. I suppose they probably have a little more information than usual via the QTs, though, if players were unsmart.

[DarkStalker]

Ok I have read the end of day 1 and a few recent post on the last couple of pages here and there. I'll go more into day 2 and the gaps I'm obviously missing later. I want to get something up by the end of the night so we don't get a 3 day prod tomorrow. Here we go

PF's Thoughts on Limbo and Mina

I don't think mina is cult at the moment. Recently me and ani have been kicking around the idea of a zombie cult. The statements i have been making were mostly in relation to this game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7677
Where Skruffs/Flameaxe was an SK that had a zombie cult like ability and given ABR's census claim i don't know if a dead cultee would be counted. But given generally religious mythology and fact mina can still be voted in limbo I'm thinking this sorta thing could only exist in this game if it involved those "dead but not burried" and not those in "limbo". So I don't think mina is in it. Especially since Limbo in most faiths is a place of emptiness where you await trial. What appears to be happening to mina has already be outlined by kinetic in the day start post. Paraphrasing I have posted something to this extent in a hydra QT to ask ani what he thinks and I'm awaiting his response. I don't think mina is cult and i think that was ani's main concern. He is more than welcome to correct me if i am wrong and he has more reason to now think she is scum then i know about.

___________

@Iec

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 07#2298007
I would say that yes you did answer my question. You mentioned meta applying to whether mina was cautious or overzealous and related to previous examples of her town play. This shows your faith in meta in relation to how you view her and yet you don't know her scum persona so you don't sound overly confident. As I don't think you are faking any of this statement, it fits your current play with relation to her and how you have come off a little wavery early relating to her.

If any of that paragraph confuses you just know that I no longer suspect you or question your early actions regarding her. As far as having a QT goes, there being other QT's out there is not what surprised me. "You admitting to it" is what surprised me because i was worried what me or rather ani said had inadvertantly coaxed you forward. Though now that we have been given more of the background involved here, I see we had no part in you coming forward.

@manho

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 98#2299498
Can you answer some of the questions directed at you at the end of day 1? The ort lynch seemed highly likly and i brefily said his reasonless policy lynching desire made him scumy earlier myself. TNM gave little reason but parroting when he got on orto wagon so i think that was why spyreX wanted him dead if orto was/is scum. Given your end of day 1 comments i tend to believe you could be scum if orto/WhoeverReplacedHim is also scum

@Tarhalindur

and maybe Beholder

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 56#2305856
huh what the heck was here and redacted? I smell shenanigans or somebody using a bad post editing skill

@Parama

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 67#2298567
Um why does this post say Response removed? Was there a response once there or is this a bad joke? Also if nika is a threat that goes against a town win condition, then how come he shouldn't be voted/lynched?

@Anyone

Also general question since i can't seem to find the exact answer myself. 3rd party speculation is rampant in this game. Alot of people are saying "X is third party" when something like that is an isolated occurence, i normally think the acuser is an SK trying to feign inocence or a mafioso trying to find an SK. But as just about everyone seems to be doing it (i even recall ani doing it), I realize niether of these must be the case. So I have to wonder how things evolved like this? Does anyone know who first brought up third parties or said "X is 3rd party"? Most likly it was someone who accused Fate of being 3rd party as he appears to most commonly = X in people's descriptions

_________

@ABR, Parama

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 47#2306047
Actually ABR someone was pretty close to spot on in their first post

Setup speculation time...how many scum do you think there are?

Have I mentioned how long it's been? It's always been too long. It depends on whether or not there are multiple scumteams.

If one team, eh, I'd put it at six.

Maybe maybe seven, but probably not. If two scumteams, perhaps four apeice (but with heavy immunities?) if they're symmetrical and who knows what if they're not, but probably no more than nine total Mafia in either case.

@Parama is that why you are voting plum? Is that the answer you are looking for here?
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 40#2310840

I'm going to talk to ani in the near future and see what he thinks of Plums reaction here and see if he agrees with my view of mina or if there is more too his opinion that he has not told me yet. I will also get caught up rest of way and fill in some gaps later too as I can't seem to find any nice summary that i asked for at the moment to make all this easier . Later, I'll see you guys likly tomorrow.

[BlazezRb]

My scumdar is completly overloaded, gosh.

I'll just keep my vote till I figure out what the hell I want to do with it.

[Mighty Orbots]

@Iecerint, I actually largely believe that claiming would be advantageous for town in a power heavy game like this so long as everyone did it but I'd be pretty surprised if people would go for that at this point in the game. The worship mechanic makes the divinity claim something special though and it's something that I think has the potential to do enough good (and might get little enough resistance because of the special circumstances surrounding it) that a push for that is worthwhile. I'll admit some bias in that I feel I work much better (to a greater than normal degree) when I've got more information in these games.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Parama]

1. yeah it was a joke. And I'm really screwing around with all these 3rd party accusations but it's fun regardless

2. [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 15#2306015]The answer lies in this post and the following[url]
Nobody is getting those points though. I love how Plum is prodding Nik to vote me because Nik is hellbent on lynching me yet Plum doesn't have any serious suspicions herself. Why would she even care about who Nikanor's voting if it has nothing to do with her scumhunting?
I realize there's no wagon involved here but that post, though only a single word, is one of the scummiest thus far simply because of its implication and its timing.

Though the quote you bring up is also pretty cool and make me even happier about my vote.

[Parama]

EBWOP:
The answer lies in this post and the following

[totallynotmafia]

@DTM: What is VI?

[dramonic]

village idiot.

[Mighty Orbots]

@totallynotmafia, in that context DTMaster almost certainly means Village Idiot.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh