Mini 983: It Got Worse (GAME OVER)

[UncertainKitten]

@SK: Acting like RC and Amished did the same thing when they didn't. And then claiming he misrepped you when he didn't.

SP is being surprisingly coherent right now.

[SaintKerrigan]

(I noted points of interest to me, but both of them are things that can be somewhat townish or somewhat scummy. Without more solid modifiers, I gave a neutral read.)

[SaintKerrigan]

@ UK: I fail to see what you're perceiving as a difference between Amished's reaction to SPS and RC's reaction to SPS.

[SocioPath]

SP is being surprisingly coherent right now.

AWWW CRAPZZ U R RITE.

Its just that scum can be caught with incoherency just as much as coherency.
And I can do both.

And when it comes to deeper psychological reads, and posts that scream in 10 different ways "I AM SCUM", sometimes it is more useful phrase it in different manners.

OR TO PUT IT IN ANOTHER WAY:

INCOHERENCY CATCHES THE SCUM
COHERENCY REELS THEM IN

AND IVE GOT A LIVE ONE HERE FOLKS

[UncertainKitten]

@SK: I think I pointed this out before.

I don't remember what I said but it was the general feeling and timing of the posts. m_o further brought up the fact that Amished has also not been responding well to interrogation while RC is still being interrogated. So the situations are different.

[SaintKerrigan]

UK: I guess I'll disagree with you then. Amished feels town to me right now.

I'm assuming by saying SP is being more coherent that you're agreeing, at least in part, with what he's saying about me. Mind elaborating on that?

[SocioPath]

I'm assuming by saying SP is being more coherent that you're agreeing, at least in part, with what he's saying about me. Mind elaborating on that?

Heh.

[UncertainKitten]

SP's already done it. I saw what he was driving at the minute he brought it up, and he's right. The fact you acted oblivious for so long does not make me feel good about you.

[SaintKerrigan]

I have answered all of SP's questions that I'm aware, and I think the argument he's bringing up is crap in the first place. People are also not giving much attention to RedCoyote as I think he should be getting due to his lack of posting, again for reasons I cannot fathom. Pardon me for thinking there is a certain amount of WTF-ness flying around right now.

[UncertainKitten]

You've answered them, but unsatisfactorily. As it happens, I think SPs argument is fairly accurate.

[SaintKerrigan]

No vote, though?

[UncertainKitten]

I'm voting Amished. I still think he's suspect. We're testing our FoS' on RC, or else I'd be FoSing you right now.

[SaintKerrigan]

Mmkay

[magnus_orion]

SK: As I understand it, these are the issues:
Reasons for your vote for RC: not posting, in the background, being ignored... etc.
Reasons for you fos of me: goading the Amished wagon from the background
Reasons for your neutral (or is it town now?) read of spyreX: not posting, in the background, being ignored, goading the Amished wagon from the background.

This makes it seem like spyreX is receiving special treatment from you. Is he? if so, why? If not, why not?

And: SpyreX didn't start the wagon. How does this affect your read of spyreX? Why?

[SaintKerrigan]

This makes it seem like spyreX is receiving special treatment from you. Is he? if so, why? If not, why not?

No. I just haven't been able to get a solid read one way or the other, so I'm keeping him neutral. The other two mentioned people did things in a way I considered much more scummy than what Spyrex did.

And: SpyreX didn't start the wagon. How does this affect your read of spyreX? Why?

It doesn't. It just removes one of my points of interest. It does nothing to alter the read overall.

[magnus_orion]

This makes it seem like spyreX is receiving special treatment from you. Is he? if so, why? If not, why not?

No. I just haven't been able to get a solid read one way or the other, so I'm keeping him neutral. The other two mentioned people did things in a way I considered much more scummy than what Spyrex did.

And: SpyreX didn't start the wagon. How does this affect your read of spyreX? Why?

It doesn't. It just removes one of my points of interest. It does nothing to alter the read overall.

See, those are both overly long ways of saying "no"

Explain why and how, please. You're audience can't see things the way you do, and we care to know.

For example:

No. I just haven't been able to get a solid read one way or the other, so I'm keeping him neutral. The other two mentioned people did things in a way I considered much more scummy than what Spyrex did.

The issue at hand ("why is your read on spyreX different?"), isn't addressed here.
Why haven't you been able to get a solid read?
How is the way in which the other two people did things different from how spyreX did them, and why is it more scummy?

and

It doesn't. It just removes one of my points of interest. It does nothing to alter the read overall

The issue at hand here is "why doesn't it affect your read?" Once again, you fail to address this.


In addition, another issue is raised with this response. Because the removal of that point of interest doesn't alter the read, then that implies that when the point was first brought up, and included, it had nothing to do with the read.

Like so:

Statement A = Neutral Read
Statement B = statement A + Statement C
Statement B = Neutral Read
Statement C = SpyreX started the wagon.

Since Statement C didn't affect your read, why mention it in the first place?

The issue here is whether or not your read is actually dependent upon the reasons you listed in thread, because if, by abandoning one, your read remains unchanged (especially if that read is neutral), it implies that your read wasn't based on that reason at all.

[SaintKerrigan]

Why haven't you been able to get a solid read?

If I actually knew the answer to that, wouldn't I have told you by now?

The issue at hand here is "why doesn't it affect your read?" Once again, you fail to address this.

(I noted points of interest to me, but both of them are things that can be somewhat townish or somewhat scummy. Without more solid modifiers, I gave a neutral read.)

Note to Magnus: Please learn to read the thread before making accusations about me that aren't true. Thank you.

Seriously, first the rather suspicious behavior you employ on the Amished wagon (a target of opportunity), now assaulting me over points that don't actually exist.

Seems like an FoS wasn't enough.

Unvote: RedCoyote. Vote: Magnus_Orion.

[LlamaFluff]

Well ok... why you guys manage to put up that many pages on the one day when I dont have the time to stay up with it I will never know but.


When the protect is revealed as fake is when stuff gets interesting. I do not at all understand the vote for the fake day protect from amish. Most fake actions are null tells to me, as was this one. The most they normally will accomplish is get a few small reactions, which we all know this one never got a chance to.

I can see the scum motivation for a fake day-doc, but also just as much, if not more town motivation, since its just ambiguous enough to get a pause out of scum when they have to make a kill, as well as instilling doubt about presence of a daykiller to scum. The action is not a scumtell in anyway to me.

Amish continues to ignore the fact that town at times will fake a day action (heck that one game he linked to had a fake day kill that caught scum) which I dont really get. I actually see more fake-actions from town then scum if memory serves, normally I will make slight breadcrumbs as VT if I want to draw the NK. While I DO agree that reactions from the protect probably woouldnt have been useful, it doesnt make it scummy if it makes scum think twice about who they target.

The "I give up" doesnt make sense to me. What happens next seems to at least be a queue as to why Amish is convinced beyond reason that SPS is scum. What Amish is missing is the following thought process for town

-I want to fake a day action
-I want to try faking a doctor so
--It would discourage any day vig from killing someone I think is town
--It may cause scum to have second thoughts about killing my target at night
--It may attract a NK to me and save a stronger role.
-Oh its been proven fake
-Lets go back to voting SP

That is what I thought SPSs thought process was.

few more pages to go

[SpyreX]

Wooooooo it might be time to turn this around because 366 by itself is voteworthy and, like I said, them both being scum doesn't make sense.

In fact, yep. TOOT TOOT

Unvote, Vote: SK

[SaintKerrigan]

[SocioPath]

An SK wagon?
That might be something that I would want to join.

[SaintKerrigan]

Psst, SP. In case you forgot, you

started

the SK wagon...

[magnus_orion]

Why haven't you been able to get a solid read?

If I actually knew the answer to that, wouldn't I have told you by now?

The issue at hand here is "why doesn't it affect your read?" Once again, you fail to address this.

(I noted points of interest to me, but both of them are things that can be somewhat townish or somewhat scummy. Without more solid modifiers, I gave a neutral read.)

Note to Magnus: Please learn to read the thread before making accusations about me that aren't true. Thank you.

Seriously, first the rather suspicious behavior you employ on the Amished wagon (a target of opportunity), now assaulting me over points that don't actually exist.

Seems like an FoS wasn't enough.

Unvote: RedCoyote. Vote: Magnus_Orion.

*blinks*
yes this makes perfect sense. /sarcasm.

I was trying to clarify the in-thread argument with you, by making the points against you organized in a clear and coherent fashion. Whether or not you already answered the question is irrelevant.

However, I'm willing to play along.

If I actually knew the answer to that, wouldn't I have told you by now?

How should I know?

Note to Magnus: Please learn to read the thread before making accusations about me that aren't true. Thank you.

accusation? I was saying you were failing to address the issue at hand twice in that post.

Seriously, first the rather suspicious behavior you employ on the Amished wagon (a target of opportunity), now assaulting me over points that don't actually exist.

What points don't exist?


Will you at least finish answering my questions so you don't come off as though you panicked and voted me because you couldn't?

Seems like an FoS wasn't enough.

for what exactly? This sounds like you're trying to scare me with your suspicion.

[LlamaFluff]

Was wondering if someone would point out the RC vote on SPS eventually. I actually prefer that wagon at first glance to Amished, the reasoning Amish gave for the vote just misses some points, but apart from that does make some sense. RC just seems to have had the fortune of not be active at the right time. Sort of a side point, but I do tend to agree that similar thought patterns come from shared alignments.

Broadcast: If the mod were to be lynched would that remove you from the game?

Anyone else notice that Broadcast aka Alpha managed to stop the stupid arguements though? Bonus points to him.

unvote
un-FoS
Vote RedCoyote
FoS RedCoyote

Also im 99% sure that I figured out the red-blue text thing, but actually think its better to not say what it is at this point. Oddest part is the only thing im certain is a lie that has been said in that text is something blue has said.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote: Steam-Powered Shovel

for being unsure what he's trying to accomplish by with his "day protect" remark. I think Llama is doing a good enough job for himself, and I don't know why SPS felt the need to jump in and attach himself to him like that.

So this is bad. SPS is scum for randomly faking a daykill? Even if he has no good reason for faking a day kill I cant really come up with concrete reason why its anything but a subjective scumtell. Seems more like you are calling him scum for saying that I am town with *style* or something like that.

Like I said when I voted, I don't really get what value he's bringing to the game with it. Maybe it was just tongue-in-cheek, but why Llama? It just seemed kind of out of the blue.

So its scummy for being a random move and targeting me? I just really cant see why its in any way a scum tell to make a fake day action. What is the scum motivation over town motivation for it?

Lastly, I surrendered my position on the back of Llama pointing out the tangled web of V/LAs and absences that kind of plauged SP's quick draw position. I still don't really get a scummy vibe off of SP, but I've changed my mind in regards to how he arrived at Nikanorscum.

For clarities sake, this is you saying Nik is neutral read?

I've been racking my brain trying to figure out an angle to really back up any wagon on SPS, but there's really nothing there to vote on.

So SPS is town? What the heck changed there (apart from the berating of Amish for saying he was scum)? AtE also is a weak scumtell, I consider it more of a nulltell, or at best something to tack on to a case due to how some people like it.

Its been mentioned at this point "one of Amish-SK is scum" I would more say "one of Amish-RC-SK". It would be hard for more than one of them to be scum together, but I dont see all three town at this point.

What was your thought process on the whole SPS thing? It seems like you thought he was scum but changed that opinion at some wierd time, and are saying that the ones who say you wanted him lynched are lying about that. I didnt read that vote of yours (and two subsequent comments on reasoning) as pressure, so where did this change of heart occur?