Open 221: unclean - Day 3

[Shadow Dancer]

/Vote JR

I'll reread as soon as I find some time to spare.

[Shadow Dancer]

And before I forgot:

@Excedrin: You lazy creature, it's one thing to send me that lousy excuse of a role PM, but something different to not even include a link to the game threat

[MehPlusRawr]

/Vote JR

I'll reread as soon as I find some time to spare.

We're out of RVS already >_>

[Johnny Rotten]

/Vote JR

I'll reread as soon as I find some time to spare.

We're out of RVS already >_>

Nah, he is just OMGUS voting me for outing his predecessor.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

SSSS: He comes in, and asks some innocent seeming questions in his first post, except for this:

Do you prefer playing as town, mafia, or power roles?

Rolefishing in any way, shape, or form is scummy. All three of his questions look like scum trying to look like they are scumhunting. Since that first post, he hasn't really contributed to the game except to reword and ask questions others had already aasked.

Vote: SSSS

Ok, I understand if you find my questioning scummy. That is one topic in itself. But if you find me tied for the third scummiest, behind Crazy and Migwelloni/Shadow Dancer, then why vote me and not them? It doesn't seem to follow.

as for the question, I was not rolefishing. I was simply asking people about their mafia tastes. it could have helped to indicate mafia or town, but i figured i would add in power roles to the usual question.

I have not been able to add much to conversations because there hasn't been much to talk about, and by the time I saw the posts, everything has been said.

[Shattered Viewpoint]

Alrighty, responding to the prod, but I'm not sure there is much to comment on.

<sssssssssnip>

Other than that, I have a few people I'm watching right now, but no definite reads on them. I think that since we're not getting much discussion down right now, I think we will get more information from the lynch and night flips.

I have not been able to add much to conversations because there hasn't been much to talk about, and by the time I saw the posts, everything has been said.

Lame.

Vote: SSSSSSS

(If you say it in the right way, it's just like a lowly ssssnake hissssssing a warning to its' victimsssssss.)

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Shattered Viewpoint is a Parseltongue, so he's either scum or Harry Potter...

The Smashbro case is vaguely interesting, if not compelling or convincing yet. Shattered Viewpoint's enthusiasm is equally interesting.

[jmj3000]

Ok, I understand if you find my questioning scummy. That is one topic in itself. But if you find me tied for the third scummiest, behind Crazy and Migwelloni/Shadow Dancer, then why vote me and not them? It doesn't seem to follow.

The reason I voted you and not Crazy or Shadow Dancer is because lately my top scum reads have been off. Therefore, I didn't use them to influence my decision on who to vote. I stated those reads just so they were out there and to get conversation going, but the vote is where I want it. I don't like how SV just went and followed along and voted without any explanation.

FoS: SV

[Shattered Viewpoint]

Do what now?

[Crazy]

The last sentence bothers me. Crazy is planning to vote for Migwelloni if he provides a bad explanation, or no explanation. My problem is that he's telling Migwelloni how to not be voted for by Crazy. Another thing, which I've mentioned before: now that Crazy has made such a big deal of weasel words being scummy in this game, how reliable of a scum tell is it? So far Crazy has been telling scum how to avoid his suspect list.

I said that I was planning to vote him to make sure he didn't blow it off and ignore me, which it seems he did, anyway. I didn't actually realize that I still had my random vote on him.

I don't see how me saying "explain your logic well" is tipping him off on how to avoid my suspect list... really, it's pretty obvious that arguments should be presented coherently, isn't it?

Crazy: His asking in his first post about everyone's thoughts on a miller claim seems off. It reads to me as more "Hey scum here is the play to make" than "Hey town, here is the optimal play".

I don't understand this. I was telling the scum that the millers should claim?

I have not been able to add much to conversations because there hasn't been much to talk about, and by the time I saw the posts, everything has been said.

There's always something to say. You mentioned in your last post that there were a couple people you were "watching right now." If something bugs you, or interests you, or whatever, you can pursue it.

[Excedrin]

Vote Count

Shadow Dancer (4): Crazy, Albatross, Alduskkel, Johnny Rotten
Johnny Rotten (1): Shadow Dancer
smashbro_of_the_SSS (2): jmj3000, Shattered Viewpoint

not voting: smashbro_of_the_SSS, DizzyIzzyB13, MehPlusRawr, dRool89

Day 1 Deadline reminder 3 days.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

I have not been able to add much to conversations because there hasn't been much to talk about, and by the time I saw the posts, everything has been said.

There's always something to say. You mentioned in your last post that there were a couple people you were "watching right now." If something bugs you, or interests you, or whatever, you can pursue it.

By this I meant that I had a couple possible town reads, and one person who could go either way. I don't want to talk about them until I can make a plausible case, and as for townies, I'd rather not give scum hints on who to kill.

Day 1 Deadline reminder 3 days.

Not good. I will be on tomorrow, but not thursday or early friday (it's finals week) so if no other lynch looks like it will happen, I'll put my vote on Shadow Dancer, or another wagon if one gathers speed in one day (unlikely). We don't want a no lynch.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Crazy: His asking in his first post about everyone's thoughts on a miller claim seems off. It reads to me as more "Hey scum here is the play to make" than "Hey town, here is the optimal play".

I don't understand this. I was telling the scum that the millers should claim?

I think he's insinuating you were inviting the scum to claim to be millers, although I don't see why this would necessarily make you scum.

[Alduskkel]

Tell you what, I will be ready to lynch Migwelloni after Dizzy posts 4 more times.

Would you care to elaborate on this oddly specific condition?

Nope. :V

Why not? DizzyIzzy, why aren't you the one asking the previous question?

Hi.

Crazy is my first town read.

Question: Why would you announce this?

I was looking for this:

Thank you. I love to buddy up to other people when I'm scum; however, when I am town, I am immune to the charms of other people.

If you believe I am pro-town, then you must have read the thread. Did you find anything scummy, mildly scummy, or perhaps "odd?"

Why were you looking for that? What did it tell you, specifically?

Crazy: His asking in his first post about everyone's thoughts on a miller claim seems off. It reads to me as more "Hey scum here is the play to make" than "Hey town, here is the optimal play". Also, his "weasel words" argument sounds like he is setting up a policy he can fall back on, and also trying to paint someone as scum.

Elaborate, using quotes and highlighting statements that make you think this.

Ok, I understand if you find my questioning scummy. That is one topic in itself. But if you find me tied for the third scummiest, behind Crazy and Migwelloni/Shadow Dancer, then why vote me and not them? It doesn't seem to follow.

The reason I voted you and not Crazy or Shadow Dancer is because lately my top scum reads have been off. Therefore, I didn't use them to influence my decision on who to vote. I stated those reads just so they were out there and to get conversation going, but the vote is where I want it. I don't like how SV just went and followed along and voted without any explanation.

FoS: SV

Are you joking? You think you're wrong about your top suspects (which implies that they are, in fact, not your top suspects) and are FoSing someone for agreeing with you.

You need to rethink how you play Mafia.

Mod: Prod dRool89

.

Day 1 Deadline reminder 3 days.

Mod: Can we have a deadline extension?

[Excedrin]

Mod: Prod dRool89

I did that on Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:17 am PST. He hasn't picked it up. I'll replace him tomorrow-ish unless he posts (soon). (It is his 2nd prod).

Mod: Can we have a deadline extension?

Why? I'm inclined to Just Say No [tm].

[Shattered Viewpoint]

Because dRool is MIA (as he is in another game, as well. Oops, I can't say that. Anyway.).

[Shadow Dancer]

Hi, I caught up now. Since I consider it likely that I'll be the day's lynch any way I decided to give my thouhgts on different posts and issues in one big WOT so you have something to work with once I'm a confirmed, yet dead as a dodo, townie.

The huuuuuuge WOT

:

Ex3: What? Cop killed N0 for not conmfirming? Booooh!

Crazy6: What? Not read the setup? Hmm...

SV10: Why doesn't he pont out Crazy'S mistake?

Crazy12: Yeah, normal cops are totally broken. Our problem is the N0 killed cop though, not the setup per se. I think a pure 3:9 vanilla lineup would be quite ballanced, by the way.

SV15: Most useless post ever - he's clearly bored and craving for recogition... Note the contradiction to SV10!
Hint: If you have too much free time just join another game. Replacing in instead of just joining a new game ensures you'll have plenty of things to analyze and you won't have to annoy people.
(Edit: SV 27 OK, good point about the prod. However, his tendency to pointless OTT still seems slightly suspicious)

smash17:
-No. Lurker's aren't suspicious per se, just anti-town. Prod them, vote them, ask them questions, pressure them - don't ever lynch them just for lurking.
And you would still lynch a lurker on D2? Already setting up mislynches so early in the game is - scummy.

-Obvious Counter question: How do you enjoy your role in this game. On my part: Playing scum is much more relaxed, but I wouldn't want to miss the thrill of being a townie with absolute no idea what's going on... I like diversion, creative and crazy stuff...

-My name's as "random" as most people's "RVs". What's this question intended to produce any way? OTT?

Meh18: Why?

SV19: If this wasn't so weak I'd say you admit that you prefer perople OTTig instead of hnting scum...

JR21: Wishy washy about his lynching policy.

Ald24: Please define what is an "active lurker" for you and how you identify him/her.

Crazy28: Why so strict? People declining to take stances is not just a question of their choice of words. Still slight town feeling for starting actual scum hunting.

Crazy31: OK, slightly scummy for overstretching now. dRool made clear he'd have an eye on SV, that's also a stance. That you try to pressure people into one corner or the other for next to no reasons

is

odd.

dRool33: Assuming that mafia would fake activity by having

other

people prodded is quite contradictory.

mig35: Yeah, still being stuck on page 1 for the sake of more OTT.

Alb36: First post and just a town read without reasoning? Then asking an already answered question (Read dRool22!).

Crazy33: Pretty much a shot into his own food: Did you ever assume SV made the same mistake as you - not reading about the setup. You brought up the "miller thing", SV just did not point it out. Your behaviour is the odder one here, though I wouldn't qualify either as a scum tell per se.
Your insistance on the "odd" matter makes me think you are more interesed in twisting people's words out of context than in genuinely hunting scum. Context is important, reasoning is important, prefered choice of words is - well - on he most part individually very different. Not everything that's odd is automatically scummy but could also be a misinterpretation by the reader. Giving others the possibilty to defend themselves has definitely better benefits for town than just pinning him down on something "scummy" that might have been just misinterpreted. I stop here, I'm losing my point...

Alb40: How is asking questions better than pointing out other's discrepanmcies? It leaves scum an easier way to avoid the confrontation, doesn't it? It might make you appear more sympathical, though - something scum definitely wants.
Again asking the same question. You should know better meanwhile... Look at Crazy20.

Alb42: Isn't dRool asking town for opinion the same basic problem with questions as asking some one you noticed doing something scummy for clarification? It avoids taking a definite stance and leaves an easy way put of the confrontation. That's not per se bad, by the way. To decide if it is scummy, you have to watch behaviour on a longer time scale.

JR43: Me like

Crazy44: Now it's no longer about words but just about ideas conveyed? Why are you trying to bend that needle off now? You seemed very convinced of it before, now you turn wishy-washy.

JR45: Good point again. Also note that people with different lingual and cultural backgrounds can have very different ways to express the same things. You have to look behind the facade.

DIB47: Nice analysis from a game play point of view.

Crazy49: So what's the point of starting discussin, any way? From my PoV you at least deserve investigation.

Crazy51: He definitely implies that he finds it "odd" (i.e. worth pointing out because potentially scummy) himself.

mig52: Horribad reasoning, zero understanding of the game, no knowledge in game theory... Ouch...

mig53: Again OUCH!

Alb58: Why {mig,JR}? How probale is "probably" for you?

Crazy59: Why do you ask yourself "How could I have avoided almost screwing up as scum?" instead of "How can I successfully catch scum?" You are argumenting from a scummy point of view. That suggests you are in a scum mindset right now, hence scum. I'd consider a vig on you if we had one...

SV61: If I'd not know you from greek mythology I'd consider empty nonsense like this suspicious, it's definitely anti-town.

JR65: So you better leave the waggon because you could not produce a quick dirty result? Looks more like a framing attemt than serious scum hunting now...

Alb67: Accepted. Too bad mig is just a total douche - but you can't know that.

Ald69: Wow, what a weakvote. Not every time a player agrees on some one else's statements it is authomatically buddying. I don't see go around and pat every one on the back, I take his post as genuine approval.

Ald72: And you obviously realized that yourself...

SV73: Another meagre post by a player that could obviously hardly wait to start the game...

Crazy76: If you complain that heavily about other player's choices of words don't you think you should be more concise in your own expressions?

SV78: I don't like your arguments here. Kind of short and cursory, more jumping on other people's reasoning then explaining your own standpoint.

mig80: That depends on the possibility of a way out of the trap that should ideally be easy to find for town but harder for scum (I should stop those meta game comments, they let me drift afar...)...
How ever, the more serious mistake lies in your reasoning: Voting some one = trap? What?

Crazy84: What I would like to know from you right now is: How do you handle townies screwing up?

Mig89: His first post I can somewhat like after all, although I guess mostly because of his lack of content.

mig91: Yeah, it's really easy to convince other townies into a misslynch with some trap... I seriously confused what you are refering to...

Ald94: Another weakvote. You tretch mig's argument far enough to convert into its contrary here.

SV97: OK, so the reason for your overall bad and antitown playstyle is that you do not try to read people's intentions. Still you assume that "scum skims". How do you know that if you don't read minds? Maybe because you're scum yourself (that may be the only allowed conclusion in your logic)? Seriously I'd wanna shoot you now if I could. If I didn't know your atitown behaviour from Greek Mythology already I'd say: Definitely scummy.

Crazy98: Because scum's life does not necessarily depend on paying attention to every little detail. Still: It's an ideal world were every townie does that and that world would also require scum to do the same to adapt...

JR99: Why does no one ask mig what he means by the word "trap", like coming up with an example to make his standpoint clea?. I would be really interested in that.

Alb100: So one easy target is found - with three scum in the game. Now you can lean back and relaxe... Scummy

ald101: Many questions, no answers... Your question to meh is particularly strange. You almost assume meh would have no choice but to vote mig...

alb103: More openly confessed desire for quick blood - reasons can come later... Dafinitely in my scummy list now.

alb105: So you basically would know nothing at all either way - great reason to scream for blood. SCUMMY

alb106: And after all that deep insight into your reads (yeah, sacasm, alright), you hand the cup to some one else...

SV109. So. So what? You don't care to show your standpoint? Alright, more antitown behaviour...

SV116: Preparing to zero in on free target mig. After all your other (non)contributions this looks like a really lame attempt to fake scum hunting.

Ald117: Finally a good analysis from you.

smash118: You point out the actual problems - and decide to ignore them and just go for the easy waggon. Careless behaviour for scum, for a townie just bizarre.

jmj120: D1 Miller claims are a good play normally. Why do you think Ex sent them a VT PM, eh? Bad reasoning here.And why do you vote for what you call your 3rd strongest scum tell, not the first?

SV123: Mr. Hypercontribution (yeah, sarcasm again) can't wait again... Right now I am asking myself what he does with all the spare time he seems to have. Definitely nothing to help us hunt scum.

JR128: Random is really OMGUS...

smash129: Yu included PRs in your question, though. That qualifies as role fishing, although it's a really clumsy attempt.

SV130: Maybe you shouldn't have shattered your mirror. Looking into it one time or another might provide good service to you...

DIB131: I don't wanna sound like Crazy, But "interesting" sounds really really vague here.

jmj132: So your way of adapting your scum hunting is to vote the people further down on your scum list. Oh my... Another instavig candidate.

SV133: Proposal: Finally come up with something on your own...

Conclusions:

I find SV incredibly antitown. Unfortunately I know that that's typical for him.

I find Alb's behaviour the most scummy right now.

/Unvote./Vote Alb

I would support waggons on the following players: Carzy, Alb, SV and possibly smash and JR.

I do not like mig's behaviour, but it seems more inexperienced and partially anti townish than actually particularly scummy to me. I think I wouldn't support a lynch on him, even if I wasn't his replacement.
Unfortunately no one ever bothered to ask him the right question and allow him to explain himself. Yeah, that's odd (haha, the bad word again).
(it can't be scummy because then every one would be scum, you see: Sometimes things

are

just odd)
But of course I know his role and am therefore biassed.
I am just a vanilla, so I am expendable, especially because I might be miller.

[Shadow Dancer]

Oh, btw, there are quite some questions and other food for thought in my WOT, since most of you seem quite stuck you might wanna pick up one thing or another before the DL.

[Shadow Dancer]

After another reread of my comments: Add jmj to my waggon approved list.

[Crazy]

Hey, apparently you didn't like my little "odd" debate. Note that it wasn't intended to act as a solid case. I think it's obvious; however, that I'm not making it up, and that it does come from my own experience as scum... as I pointed out in one past post of mine.

Your last post, SD, actually makes me think you're probably not scum, though... not for the content but mainly because you didn't claim cop. It may be too late to switch targets, however... and it's still better to lynch you than to do No Lynch.

I don't think a different wagon can build up in 2 days, and Mig's behavior was scummy enough that I'm not going to let a recent slight town read on you possibly create a No Lynch.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

alright, well, not much time on right now, but as promised, I will

vote: Shadow Dancer

as to prevent a no lynch.

[Shadow Dancer]

No lynch is an option if you are

sure

you would hit town and there is no chance to have another waggon going before DL.
Hance from

my

new waggon>no lynch>lynch me.

However, from your PoV lynching me in doubt remains the best play.

That being said, It's never too late to try and initiate a new waggon. I think Alb is a really good choice ATM.

I did not object to your building of any case on your "odd debate" but on you, totally out of context, nitpicking on other people's expressions while being all but concise on your own choice of words as well as the scummy PoV you held during the whole debate (the "it almost screwed me over when I was scum" thing).

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWODP: Hence from my point of view new waggon>no lynch>lynch me.

[Shadow Dancer]

My conciliatory proposal:

Every one keeps his her vote where it is for now but also lays down their PoV on the following points:

- Are you willing to vote/lynch me right now.
- Whom else would you support a lynch waggon on.

If we can gather enaugh people willing to change their vote or support another waggon this way, there is a slight chance that we can actually avoid a mislynch on me.

[Excedrin]

Ex3: What? Cop killed N0 for not conmfirming? Booooh!

No, mafia killed him. He was a cop but because he was dead it didn't matter that he didn't confirm or investigate anyone. This setup is nightstart.

dRool89 still hasn't picked up or responded to his prod, so I'm replacing him (I'll post about it as soon as his replacement replies).
Albatross has been prodded.

Vote Count

Shadow Dancer (5): Crazy, Albatross, Alduskkel, Johnny Rotten, smashbro_of_the_SSS
smashbro_of_the_SSS (2): jmj3000, Shattered Viewpoint

not voting: Shadow Dancer, DizzyIzzyB13, MehPlusRawr, dRool89

1 day 20 hours some odd picoseconds till deadline.