Mini 980 - Trader Mafia (Game Over)

[zoraster]

No.

1. Have at least $1000 in cash minus debts AND
2. Have at least 50% of total cash in the game (of those alive)

Note the "AND".

What I think it means is that you need 1000 and 50% but you don't need 50% and 1000.

For example, if there is only 800 you would only need 400 to win because you can't get 1000 because there is not that much cash in the game.

Perhaps it is because I am a lawyer that I think such things are self-evident, but the use of the word AND means that all elements are necessary. Therefore, you must have at least $1000 in cash-debts AND 50% of the cash. If you only meet one of the elements, you would not have met the requirement. For future reference, if you see the word OR it is intended to mean that any one of the elements is sufficient, but this is not the case here.

[Zang]

Ok

I misread.

[NavyCherub]

Seriously? (this is at VV) You think scum would buy the DV and then vote themselves?

unvote
##vote: VasudeVa

fos fishy and SK

Why do you think both Fish and Vas could be scum? From the way they've butt heads I think it's one or the other; even with two scum teams, I just doubt we would get that lucky.

I think Pickpocket is pretty much a third-party role because the person who has it is probably trying to get a money win.

Do you still think this now that you know how hard it seems to be? I, personally, think it is probably more of a scum ability; they want the ability to outbid the other team since the team's ability to combine their money makes them the only competition for each other, and it doesn't seem very town to want to take money from potentially other townies.

[Fishythefish]

I almost can't believe I'm arguing this. If you were agreeing don't with a gerund, the sentence would be
"I'm not really interested in [talking about mechanics] that

doesn't

really apply yet."
Even without this, the natural reading of that sentence is totally clear, and I simply do not believe you meant this form. For one bonus thing, "talking about mechanics" is something that can "matter" or not, but I fail to see how "talking about mechanics" can "apply" or not. Unlike mechanics, which can both "matter" and "apply".

I'm voting you because of -
1. The original sentence - I don't believe you genuinely thought the mechanics didn't matter. You simply said that to further you argument.
2. This argument. There's no way you can think you sentence was originally intended to mean the discussion was irrelevant. Again, you're lying to further your argument.
3. I think your stance to Jack is off. I've got no clear picture of which of {self-vote, double vote, wagon derailment} you find scummy, of why any of these are scummy in your eyes, or of the links between them you've implied. I think that's because that picture doesn't exist; you were just hoping something stuck.

[Jack]

Yeah, 3 is totally true, regardless of the language argument (and I think it's likely that Vas is being dishonest about his meaning there--english as a second language regardless).

[VasudeVa]

Wrong grammer on my part then, sorry. But that's totally what I meant(Not that you'll believe me anyway). Mistake =/= Lying though.

If you know such a thing as known as pressuring, you'll understand. How am I likelier to be scum because I'm pressuring someone who is acting suspicious?

Lastly, to repeat myself, note that I am no longer voting for him.

[Fishythefish]

Mistake =/= lying indeed. Here, I don't think it's plausible that it's a mistake.

I've got no problem with pressure votes (although I somewhat dislike people saying that's what they are doing). But when asked why you were voting Jack, you responded with this. That's not saying it was a pressure vote, that's giving reasons for your vote. If you give reasons for a vote, you should have reasons for thinking the guy is scum. I don't think you did here.

I don't see the relevance of you unvoting Jack since then.

Why do you think I'm scum?

[VasudeVa]

That's funny because that post was replying to this and I do not see any question there that had anything to do with asking why I voted for Jack.

---

Because I think(thought? not sure atm) that you were trying to twist my words. It's clear now though that I did make a grammar error, sooo...yeah. This is awkward.

Why I'm voting for you:
Before your 228: I thought you were twisting my words.
But then 231 came. Read first partition.

Also humor me: Let's say I'm scum, who do you think is my scumbuddy?

[Zang]

Do you still think this now that you know how hard it seems to be? I, personally, think it is probably more of a scum ability; they want the ability to outbid the other team since the team's ability to combine their money makes them the only competition for each other, and it doesn't seem very town to want to take money from potentially other townies.

Well, look at the cost of pickpocket when it was sold. I don't really think scum could afford that if they were focusing on the night kill.

But, yes it does seem more of a scummy role.

[SaintKerrigan]

First of all, if a Townie has the Investigation Immune ability, please claim it now. You may not automatically believed to be town, but since the only reason a townie should have II anyway is to keep it out of scum's hands, there's no reason for you not to claim having it. If no one owns up to having II, it's very likely that whoever took it was scum.

(And if you're worried about getting NKed and giving the ability right back to the scum, consider this: scum are very likely low on cash/in debt due to attempts to grab other items. If they haven't already borrowed their limit, they'll have to borrow more money to take the II ability, which will hinder them in paying off their other debts, and will most likely result in the scum going bankrupt, forcing a sale of II and giving us a very clear idea as to one of the scum. If you're just afraid of dying period, then that's being anti-town.)

I don't get why Zaj thinks scum wouldn't go for the DV, considering it went for a very low price. I might've thought that was a DV breadcrumb, but Zaj wasn't on the Jack wagon so he can't be it (also because I know from future reading that Jack is the DV).

On the off hand, I also don't see why Fishy thinks scum would buy the ability more than town. In my opinion, the act of buying the DV is a null tell. The explanation he gives a bit later does nothing to illuminate this.

Zang has obviously never played with Haylen before. Self-voting in the RVS is not a scumtell, and I'm not even sure that it's a scumtell outside the RVS. Town have been known to do it.

I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling about Andrius' posts.

Oh hey, it's SPS. How much has he posted? Not a lot. (Yeah, I'm one to talk, but I was on V/LA, so I had an excuse for that.)

Jack's remark about VV is intriguing. Will be interested to see how VV responds.

Jack's 163 brings a good point against VV.

I'm still waiting to see anything town from SK who is posting nothing at all this game.

Hello? I posted a V/LA notice in this thread, as well as several other places. Pay attention, please.

SPS's vote hop is setting off my scumdar, especially when his first attempt was wrong and he corrected it by jumping on the actual larger bandwagon. Voting for bandwagoning's sake in RVS is one thing. Doing it post-RVS is something else entirely.

Zaj's VV vote is /facepalm territory. You aren't supposed to say it's a pressure vote, or it tends to ruin the effect.

VV's attempt to mount a Jack wagon is fail. Very OMGUSy.

Oh, a Flashstorm post. What has he done beyond his "game-breaking" strategy? Nothing.

VV further fails at providing good reasons why Jack is actually scum.

@Fish: "Talking about mechanics" is a gerund phrase, which makes it a noun, then the verb 'don't' refers to the discussion, not the mechanics.

If you read it this way:
Not really interested in

talking about

mechanics

that

don't really matter/apply yet.
Then what is the bolded part, hm?

So obviously it's meant to be read this way:
Not really interested in

talking about mechanics

that

don't

really matter/apply yet.
Red = Noun
Blue = Verb.

This is so bloody ridiculous and scummy. There is no way in hell anyone with a decent grasp of English would legitimately read your sentence as described in the second example.

To explain it grammatically: "talking about mechanics" is not the subject of the sentence; rather, it is the omitted word "I'm," which should be at the beginning of the sentence. Therefore, the main subject is "I" and the main verb is "am not interested". What comes afterwords is a description of what you aren't interested in; namely, "talking about mechanics that don't really matter/apply yet". To elaborate:

- What aren't you interested in? ("talking")
- What aren't you interested in talking about? ("mechanics")
- What kind of mechanics? ("that don't really matter/apply yet")

Trying to use false wordsmithing to say you meant something other than what you said is extremely scummy. I would vote you for this, in addition to the other things I've mentioned, but you're at L-1 and I'm not sure it's time to end the day yet.

And btw, I totally do not believe you when you claim you made a mistake. If you were knowledgeable enough of the English language to try and make an argument like that, there's no way you would've goofed on writing a sentence that comes out meaning something completely different from what you intended to say.

So, VasudeVa is #1 on my suspect list. The only reason I'm not voting him is because my vote lynches VV, and I don't think it's time for that yet.

Other suspects are Andrius, SPS, and Flashstorm. Everyone else is neutral or town.

##Unvote: Flashstorm
##Vote: Andrius

This'll do until lynch-time.

[Jack]

flashstorm was replaced in another game I noticed.

[SaintKerrigan]

flashstorm was replaced in another game I noticed.

Hmm, that may mean he's just flaking out. Guess we'll find out soon enough.

[Andrius]

For some reason, I am almost always the top choice for D1 wagons >.>.

Apparently. It must be your avatar.

You think scum would buy the DV and then vote themselves?

Given this reaction, it would be an unexpected move on the scum's part. Like a scum claiming Miller D1.

Ok, I'm not going to go too far into the money issue, but with each town player able to take out a $300 loan, on top of D1 starting money they'd have $400. Scum would have $500, if they started with $125. So it is possible for any player to have scrounged up all that money to get a power.

I bought it because I like to gut vote and a double gut vote actually does something.

It's like a free persuaded person.

I like the latter part. Makes somewhat sense. But then again it a deterrant to making a really good case, because you

don't

have to convince that other person.

Oh man, I'm at L-1 at D1 again?

Claim Thor.

I think Pickpocket is pretty much a third-party role because the person who has it is probably trying to get a money win.

I signed up for this game with the intent of trying to win via the money-win. But now that there's the $1000 criteria

AND

the 50% of all total $$ criteria, I see that as unlikely to happen. :/

I don't think people would risk taking out loans so big that they would be guaranteed to enter bankruptcy in 3 days.

Yeah, but since there's no real incentive to paying it off, why not?

I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling about Andrius' posts.

Uneasy like how I feel when I stare at your avatar, or uneasy like you're going to puke your guts out after your first college party?
Because feeling "uneasy" makes me want to facepalm.

[VasudeVa]

Note the sig. Also, you could check my wiki and ISO me and see the semi-bad engrish(at least, that's how I perceive it.). How is defending my sentence, which due to a mistake came out wrong, scummy?Why do you think I'm lying about making a mistake?

In all honesty, I do not see how I can defend myself from that without doing [ur=http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/l]AtFL[/url] because I

did

make a mistake and you all misunderstood me.

Also note: In the heat of all the mechanics discussion, Why would I openly claim in thread that the mechanics don't apply yet when they obviously do?

[VasudeVa]

Man, I'm failing all these tags. D:

AtFL

---
Irrelevant discussions goes here:
@Andrius: But you're Thor. D:

Also, what's wrong with my avatar? Are you...insulting me? That's IRL me btw circa 2007. XD. I just liek that picture of me holding a real human brain.

[Andrius]

I'm not getting sucked into this ESL debate, since we had enough of that in the other game.

Irrelevant discussion, since I posted above VV:
Not in this game. lol
Nothing's wrong. IRL you? YOU EXIST IRL? We're all actual people? /sarcasm I was wondering what

he

you were holding. I thought it was a cookie. /hungry I like your hair, BTW. The only pic of me that I have on my comp is me in a tux.

[Zajnet]

That's IRL me btw circa 2007. XD. I just liek that picture of me holding a real human brain.

Who's brain? /sarcasm

This ESL debate is kind of dumb imo. Whether he made a mistake or not we can't know, so it's a null tell.

As to the pressure vote, I didn't mean to say that the vote was only for pressure, but I see how that is how it reads. What I meant was, "I think VV is scum, so let's see how he responds to L-2," which was further reinforced by me confirming my vote in my next post.

[Zang]

Zang has obviously never played with Haylen before. Self-voting in the RVS is not a scumtell, and I'm not even sure that it's a scumtell outside the RVS. Town have been known to do it

Well, I replaced into a game with her in it but I guess that doesn't count. But what j was saying was that I didn't know it was RVS, I thought they were voting for their suspicouns they got in pre-game.

I signed up for this game with the intent of trying to win via the money-win. But now that there's the $1000 criteria AND the 50% of all total $$ criteria, I see that as unlikely to happen. :/

So did I.

[SaintKerrigan]

I like the latter part. Makes somewhat sense. But then again it a deterrant to making a really good case, because you don't have to convince that other person.

So what is it exactly that you're trying to say with this?

Uneasy like how I feel when I stare at your avatar, or uneasy like you're going to puke your guts out after your first college party?
Because feeling "uneasy" makes me want to facepalm.

Uneasy like your posts have a scummy feel to them. Plus internal thinking about certain things you've said and how it applies to game mechanics. Considering I'm voting you, though, shouldn't you have been able to figure out somewhat what I meant by "uneasy"?

BTW, GUYS, I WAS SERIOUS ABOUT CLAIMING IF YOU HAVE INVESTIGATION IMMUNITY. POSTING IN LARGE, BOLD LETTERS SO NO ONE CAN SAY THEY MISSED IT.

[SaintKerrigan]

Note the sig. Also, you could check my wiki and ISO me and see the semi-bad engrish(at least, that's how I perceive it.). How is defending my sentence, which due to a mistake came out wrong, scummy?Why do you think I'm lying about making a mistake?

Because you tried to prove your interpretation of the sentence was correct, and only admitted that it was a mistake after it was clearly shown that you were wrong. The fact that your "mistake" just so happens to also be good English, but with a different meaning, doesn't make your story all that believable, either.

Also note: In the heat of all the mechanics discussion, Why would I openly claim in thread that the mechanics don't apply yet when they obviously do?

Because you'd been voted for being too quiet, so you had to say

something

. However, you were afraid that participating in the current discussion would give away your ulterior motives, so you simply dismissed the mechanics as "unimportant", in addition to saying a few other trivial things to appear like you weren't lurking scum.

[Andrius]

So what is it exactly that you're trying to say with this?

At first I was like 'oh, that's one less person I'd have to convince when I present a case on someone'. But then I rethought it. 'That one less person also enables lynches to go faster, with less people.' So it has the potential for quicker lynches, and heavily distorts lylo.
After seeing the DV here, I don't think I'd ever want to have that power in a game.

Uneasy like your posts have a scummy feel to them. Plus internal thinking about certain things you've said and how it applies to game mechanics. Considering I'm voting you, though, shouldn't you have been able to figure out somewhat what I meant by "uneasy"?

Well yeah. But people have voted for each other for worse reasons than 'feeling uneasy', so.

[VasudeVa]

@SK:

1.That, or I could not have known the error I did until it was clearly pointed out to me. I don't disagree with you that it is good english. The main problem is it did not say what I wanted it to say.

How is it scummy that I was trying to make my point clear until the error of my ways have been pointed out? Of course, it's scummy to lie...but see here the message you have gotten from that sentence doesn't make sense (see cont.).

2.That, or I could have just megalurked like you did(you're not getting away with that BTW.) until the wagon was actually threatening. But I chose to post.

And why would I post that the mechanics don't apply yet? It's just stupid to say that, since the mechanics DO apply.

So, accdg. to you, because I was apparently being too quiet, I needed to post something that blatantly contradicts whatever is happening in the game? Makes no sense.

[Jack]

Someone should hammer Vas.

[VasudeVa]

Someone should hammer Vas.

You'll regret that once I flip town.

[VasudeVa]

Why isn't it obvious that I'm town yet? (I would explain, but it would be better if you find out for yourselves.)