Riddle Me This! NY111 - mafia dead - Town wins!

[scotmany12]

so then dj's vote would still be a nulltell and not a scumtell, wouldn't it?

If he truly didn't know Anon was a vig, then yeah. But I really think he did know that. And him calling a claimed vig scum for voting for a claimed tracker just doesn't sit right with me.

[Amished]

You seem to be missing the point I'm trying to make:

In your perspective, dj "isn't that logical of a player"

Assuming dj does know about both claims, wouldn't he be just as likely to vote for anon as either alignment? What's the scumtell there for him? Town-dj would just think he's scummy or whatever, but scum-dj would make that draw attention to him. I don't see the motivation, especially since in every scum game I've ever been in we talk about PR's (claimed and potential) so scum-dj should've picked something up from that as well, wouldn't he?

[scotmany12]

Ehhh...okay I get what you are saying.

[Amished]

Good, I was questioning if I should go to bed since I thought I was making sense but actually wasn't...

[inHimshallibe]

Moving to Nashville in the next couple of days, will only be on with very limited access to post in my Newbie game I am modding.

[Yosarian2]

For Cove/PE: You didn't really do shit to get them lynched. I hope you realize that I was sarcastic.

My case against PE, followed by my support for Cove wagon, were two of the main driving forces behind his eventual lynch. There's no way anyone would have taken your (rather abusrd) "cove" tell seriously if I hadn't already gotten everyone suspicious of that rule, and then supported the cove wagon. Frankly, you got a little momentum going on the cove wagon, which was very helpful, but then when you revealed your "tell" the absurdity of it almost derailed the wagon.

If you seriously think that "I didn't do shit to get them lynched", then you don't know how mafia works.

For the Fonz-case thing: What I see is "the points (by Fonz on Scot) are somewhat valid, but I have a town read on him {scot}" (which sends a mixed message) followed by a not very .. convincing is the word I'm looking for? statement about why cove should be lynched over scot. It's not defending a town read that's relatively close to being lynched (scot), it's not heavily pushing a scum-read, it's just.. bleh.

(shrug) The very logical way Fonz laid out the case against Scot re-inforced my already strong notion that Fonz was town, and even though I didn't agree with the case I wasn't going to say it was logically invalid, because it wasn't. Still, I felt (and still feel) that Scot is probably town, and I still was convinced of the strength of my case against PE, so I wanted to lynch Cove.

It seems like you're now trying to attack me for honestly stating my opinions, even though you don't actually say what part of that you disagree with. Do you disagree that Fonz looked pro-town and made a logical case against Scot? Do you disagree with my gut read that, dispite that, Scot is probably town? Do you disagree that PE's behavior was scummy? Or, if you don't disagree with any of that, are you just taking valid, reasonable statements on my part and trying to fit them into some cookie-cutter image of "wishy washy scum"?

Mr. Chaos NK-speculation-thing:

I'll need to look at Cove and PE first, but I'm really disliking the scot wagon. I'll get more on that in a bit.

Also, for discussion: Any idea why anon and richard didnt get nk'd last night? Tad bit odd there, IMO.

is not something I'd see anybody really regarding as an attack. It was for discussion, it wasn't an attack.

Any time ANYONE says "Hey, why didn't the scum kill player X last night" it is *ALWAYS* an attack. It is always, ALWAYS always, a thinly vailed suggestion that those players are scum because they didn't get nightkilled. I don't care how a person prefecaces it to make it sound like it's just "dicussion" or "just speculation" or whatever, that dosn't at all change the meaning of it.

Which is fine. There's nothing wrong with Chaos wanting to discuss if them surviving the night makes them scum; it's not a kind of scumhunting I've found especially useful in the past, but it's not logically invalid. At the same time, if I disagree with the thought, I should say so.

You pick out something that has a vanilla answer to it that makes you look active and helpful but doesn't make you town.

...what the hell? You really think that me DEFENDING both Anon AND Richard, two quite controversial players who have been seen my scum as many this game (including me, at times) is a "vanilla answer" that just "makes me look active and helpful" without putting my neck on the line? Are you serious? I can't imagine a position that would put me at MORE risk then defending those two; however, I didn't agree with the suggestion Chaos was making, so I said so.

@Yos: If you thought/think that Fonz was a scumkill, what's the motivation that you would say he was killed because of? Rephrased: Why was Fonz scumkilled, in your eyes?

Fonz was obv town, he had been attacked by absolutely no one all game, and the scum were never, ever, under any circumstances, going to be able to get him lynched, or even really to throw doubt on him. That, combined with the fact he's a strong scumhunter, would be plenty of reason for scum to want him dead. If you're a scum, you do NOT want to get into an endgame with someone like that.

There are other possible reasons as well, of course; scum may have thought he was going to attack them, or they may have thought he was an important power role for some reason, or they may have not wanted to go after one of the claimed power roles for fear of doc protection,ect. Could be a lot of reasons. For pretty much any scum, though, Fonz would certainly be a reasonable kill.

[Amished]

@Yos: I didn't even see your case ever against Cove/PE; so I can't comment about the validity of that. I disagree that my "stupid" tell (that works) almost got it derailed since dahill wasn't going to be on the wagon anyways, Chaos joined because of my reasoning (since I didn't see him say anything about your case) and nm8 has seen it work 3 times and followed *me* over his top scumread VV. Continue to take credit, I don't care, and it doesn't really matter.

(Fonz case response): I didn't get to the case Fonz put together either; but saying "you understand the points against scot" seems counterintuitive to thinking he's town. It may be a personal thing, but I would've countered that (if I were in town-Yos's shoes and believed Fonz-town, scot-town) by saying something along the lines of "I don't believe these are all scumtells/this is a null-tell or a town tell because/etc..." I believe this point is becoming moot however as you did explain partially your own town read, but not in a way that is going to convince other people that scot is town. Leaving this to semantics/differences of opinion in what would convince people that you're right. I DON'T like how you break down certain avenues that I could only possibly attack you on (believe fonz-town (stupid question); believe scot-town (another stupid question)) where I thought I explained myself in thinking that you weren't fully behind your argument.

(NK-WIFOM-ATTACK) Bullshit it is an attack. I could just as well as why didn't you die last night. It wouldn't be an attack. If I attempted to couple it with other evidence and tried to support my theory with you (a long time and respected player) not being NK'd; then that would be an attack. "Why didn't they die last night?" is not an attack. Also, it is a standard response to that question (that doesn't reveal alignment due to how standard it is) that there's plenty of reasons. All of which are easy to spout out due to pure logic which aren't alignment-indicative but look busy. Chaos's post was not an attack (and even if you could possibly think it was) it's an easy way for you to refute it and make you look better in the future. You aren't sticking your neck out by defending them; you've been around the block enough where such an "obvious" defense isn't associated to be a scumtell (nulltell at worst in most cases).

(Fonz kill) I'll still point back to the fact that vigs shoot (I bet Anon could confirm this by saying that who he targeted was shot). Farside should know enough of the setup (especially as a backup mod) to realize that there's a difference in kill flavor and would put the correct one out there. If DN was around I would think that this could be corrected but I haven't seen a VC from him in a long time.

[Nachomamma8]

For one thing, I'm almost certanly going to vote for Don if he dosn't answer that question soon.

DJ outlined his reasons for voting in his voting post. He believed Amished. What else were you expecting to get out of him? Also, why would scum be more likely to agree with Amished than town?

Did you miss the fact that I caught PE days ago, and have been trying to lynch him and his replacement Cove all game? Long before you voted him.

I can't pretend to like this comment. "I voted Cove before you did, so I'm town!"
Yos, do you believe that scum is incapable of bussing?

This seems rather uninformative and pointless (as is the follow up in 1321, since you don't really refute anything I said in my position);

I'd disagree. He took a different stance on the Fonz kill, which is useful in itself.
Do you believe that a vig would "maniacally laugh" before shooting Fonz?
Did you notice that the NK flavor for Fonz is "Killed", not "Cut to pieces" or "Shot"?
Do you think that another mod has anything to do with this?

This seems unnecessarily overexplained and somewhat contradictory to you "trying to lynch Cove all game" that you just brought up.

I definitely agree with you here.

Yos, could your reasoning behind this post a bit better? Right now, I'm reading it as "waffle on scot waffle on scot waffle on scot… VOTE for Cove!"

This says absolutely nothing but theory.

It's theory, but it's addressing a question. Why is that scummy?

Eh. Whenever I see someone make odd assumptions about the kill, like you seemed to be doing, I tend to think of it as a huge scum tell. It seemed obvious to me that that was a scum kill, but you seemed sure it wasn't; so sure, you were willing to vote someone partly because he disagreed with you about it. In my experience, that's often a sign that you are scum and already know who the scum killed (which it what I was clearly implying in my "do you know something I don't" question.)

Odd... as in, not the conclusions you draw? So you're ignoring the possibility that your assumption about the kill was odd to him, he thought of it as a huge scum tell, and voted you? Or are you simply being hypocritical?

Your response seemed somewhat plausible, and

I'm giving you some credit for helping push the cove lynch, yesterday,

so I dropped it for the moment. That dosn't at all mean the question was "pointless" though; just the opposite.

...? I can't say that I'm following your logic here. I don't even know why the bolded was added in. Care to clarify?

My case against PE, followed by my support for Cove wagon, were two of the main driving forces behind his eventual lynch. There's no way anyone would have taken your (rather abusrd) "cove" tell seriously if I hadn't already gotten everyone suspicious of that rule, and then supported the cove wagon. Frankly, you got a little momentum going on the cove wagon, which was very helpful, but then when you revealed your "tell" the absurdity of it almost derailed the wagon.

Would you mind providing links to back up that extremely bold statement? I’m having trouble believing it.

Bullshit it is an attack. I could just as well as why didn't you die last night. It wouldn't be an attack. If I attempted to couple it with other evidence and tried to support my theory with you (a long time and respected player) not being NK'd; then that would be an attack.

I disagree, completely. You’re saying that it’s failure to be direct means that it’s not an attack.

Overall, I tend to agree with Amish more on the important points which means that I’m leaning towards Yosscum. However, I’m leaning way more towards VV scum.

A question to Amish and Yos:
Why are you both ignoring the VV vote? Do you not understand it?

[Amished]

@Nacho: (getting through some fail-tags)

I back-up modded this game with 2 different killing "factions" (a vig and the mafia). I kept separate flavor for each kill so I don't see why/how this would be any different. I would like it clarified so we can get through this whole mess but as is I think it's pointless to continue to argue over since he's not calling me scum for my thoughts on it and I'm not calling him scum on his thoughts on it.

For the theory: It's easier to say theory rather than give your thoughts on it personally as scum since it won't have any "inside information" slipup/feel to it.

For the indirect attack: I can speculate all I want about why certain people weren't NK'd. It doesn't constitute an attack, specifically when the "attack" was worded like:

I'll need to look at Cove and PE first, but I'm really disliking the scot wagon. I'll get more on that in a bit.

Also, for discussion: Any idea why anon and richard didnt get nk'd last night? Tad bit odd there, IMO.

that. "A tad bit odd" doesn't imply it's an attack, it implies it's a point of confusion. To generate discussion about something you're confused about (which I don't really have a stand-out reason that states Chaos' alignment one way or another, I don't see why he'd be lying about trying to generate discussion from either alignment since I don't believe there was much follow up to it anyways)

(For VV-scum)I'm not ignoring it per-se; I have a town-VI read on Vasu from my reading so far. I haven't really looked at him lately; but with his (lack of) participation in recent points of discussion I'm wavering on it. I'd like to pursue this further and then I'll get to other people at that point.

[Nachomamma8]

For one thing, I'm almost certanly going to vote for Don if he dosn't answer that question soon.

DJ outlined his reasons for voting in his voting post. He believed Amished. What else were you expecting to get out of him? Also, why would scum be more likely to agree with Amished than town?

Did you miss the fact that I caught PE days ago, and have been trying to lynch him and his replacement Cove all game? Long before you voted him.

I can't pretend to like this comment. "I voted Cove before you did, so I'm town!"
Yos, do you believe that scum is incapable of bussing?

This seems rather uninformative and pointless (as is the follow up in 1321, since you don't really refute anything I said in my position);

I'd disagree. He took a different stance on the Fonz kill, which is useful in itself.
Do you believe that a vig would "maniacally laugh" before shooting Fonz?
Did you notice that the NK flavor for Fonz is "Killed", not "Cut to pieces" or "Shot"?
Do you think that another mod has anything to do with this?

This seems unnecessarily overexplained and somewhat contradictory to you "trying to lynch Cove all game" that you just brought up.

I definitely agree with you here.

Yos, could your reasoning behind this post a bit better? Right now, I'm reading it as "waffle on scot waffle on scot waffle on scot… VOTE for Cove!"

This says absolutely nothing but theory.

It's theory, but it's addressing a question. Why is that scummy?

Eh. Whenever I see someone make odd assumptions about the kill, like you seemed to be doing, I tend to think of it as a huge scum tell. It seemed obvious to me that that was a scum kill, but you seemed sure it wasn't; so sure, you were willing to vote someone partly because he disagreed with you about it. In my experience, that's often a sign that you are scum and already know who the scum killed (which it what I was clearly implying in my "do you know something I don't" question.)

Odd... as in, not the conclusions you draw? So you're ignoring the possibility that your assumption about the kill was odd to him, he thought of it as a huge scum tell, and voted you? Or are you simply being hypocritical?

Your response seemed somewhat plausible, and

I'm giving you some credit for helping push the cove lynch, yesterday,

so I dropped it for the moment. That dosn't at all mean the question was "pointless" though; just the opposite.

...? I can't say that I'm following your logic here. I don't even know why the bolded was added in. Care to clarify?

My case against PE, followed by my support for Cove wagon, were two of the main driving forces behind his eventual lynch. There's no way anyone would have taken your (rather abusrd) "cove" tell seriously if I hadn't already gotten everyone suspicious of that rule, and then supported the cove wagon. Frankly, you got a little momentum going on the cove wagon, which was very helpful, but then when you revealed your "tell" the absurdity of it almost derailed the wagon.

Would you mind providing links to back up that extremely bold statement? I’m having trouble believing it.

Bullshit it is an attack. I could just as well as why didn't you die last night. It wouldn't be an attack. If I attempted to couple it with other evidence and tried to support my theory with you (a long time and respected player) not being NK'd; then that would be an attack.

I disagree, completely. You’re saying that it’s failure to be direct means that it’s not an attack.

Overall, I tend to agree with Amish more on the important points which means that I’m leaning towards Yosscum. However, I’m leaning way more towards VV scum.

A question to Amish and Yos:
Why are you both ignoring the VV vote? Do you not understand it?

Fixed for your convenience.

[Nachomamma8]

Ehh... We're going to have to agree to disagree on the theory point. Personally, I feel that scumYos would've ignored the entire discussion because it really wasn't that important of a point and could only land him in trouble. He only used theory to look at some of the advantages that scum could gain from not killing Richard, and I don't view that as a copout at all.

And I think the misunderstanding in the whole attack issue comes from a difference in definitions of an attack. In my mind, an attack is something made to bring suspicion down on a player (Where is LikelyScumA? Why does ClaimedCop's cop claim sound horrible to me? Why is TowniePlayer still alive?). I feel like that's not your definition at all...

[Amished]

It's iffy for the theory point. I just feel town-yos would have something better to say; while scum-yos needs/wants to look active so he would answer less important questions/points with little risk.

For me, an attack is "hey, I'm voting you for doing this, this, and this" or "why did you say something like this?" or "this isn't what my meta of you says". You can question without attacking; I felt Chaos was more questioning than attacking, especially within the context of the quote where it was a third thought rather than something at the forefront of his thought process.

[Anon]

I really want to lynch Richard now.

[Amished]

... why not tomorrow?

[Anon]

Lets see:

2. iamausername Dr.Cyanide - replace or die
3. RichardGHP - seriously JUST ISO HIM.
4. doc_johnson Quagmire - town for voting Anontown.
5. Mr. Chaos Thestatusquo - town read, TSQ play before is extremely townie.
7. VasudeVa - village idiot read, reaction to TSQ pressure early in the game is also townie.
8. Amished DizzyIzzyB13 - obvtown
9. scotmany12 - dont like him very much (his case against donjhonson smells like going behind easy target) but amish has a point in competing wagons. prob town after all.
11. Anon - town
12. Nachomamma8 mipe - town, mipe was the easy target for scum in day 1.
17. Yosarian2 springlullaby - I dont have a read on yos. Need more info.
18. inHimshallibe - I have a slight town read on him from day 1. Lurky inhim is starting to worry me.
20. dahill1 - town for thinking cove was a sk.

SO I have some STRONG town reads.

And people that worry me. Richard, scot, Yos and inhim. Im PRETTY sure we have at least one scum here.

[Amished]

about that IAUN slot, I kinda want to lynch that today too.

Richard... well, I don't have high hopes for Richard of any alignment (and I actually did ISO him today)

I do agree with most of what you have too; though. If you trim it down to Yos, inHim and IAUN for a lynch today, I'd be happy.

However, what made you change your position from:

What?! I caught Paltry Excuse. Lolwtfyos.

Amished, learn to read.

The thing here, guys, is that I dont think don is scum anymore. Im pretty sure scumbags already know Im obvtown so the vote for me is illogical from a scum entity. Its more likely don is obnoxious townie that is reaally behind in the rereading department.

Of the choices left, we need a replacement from iam. I think Chaos, amish, nacho,

yos and inhim are all town

. So that leaves vasu, slight read town, and people that I seriously dislike: scot and richard.

Is there anyone here that thinks scot is town here?

(mostly Yos here)

[Mr. Chaos]

Hey, uhh, I dunno if this is bad timing or not, but I'll be

V/LA: Until the weekend.

Sorrz. I'll try and keep up if I can.

[Anon]

I realized I didnt have strong reasons to think both yos and inhim were town. Just gut reads from early days that havent been confirmed with valid information (like dahill for example).

[Amished]

Think there's any information to be gained from inHim hammering Cove?

[Anon]

I think its null. Specially for inhim, every game Ive read with him he has bussed.

[scotmany12]

I totally forgot iamusername was in this game. He needs replaced fast. I never found him particularly townish.

Vote: VasudeVa

I just don't see him as town. His avoidance of the game, the things I stated earlier about him, and hardly providing any of his own opinions, following bandwagon after bandwagon, and him calling the covewagon bad though never explaining why. Also, his recent vote on dahill screams as scum trying to hop on an easy, opportunistic wagon at the beginning of the day. I expected him to either vote for me or don.johnson judging by his comments day 3, but instead he posts this:

I don't get why attacking the tell is suddenly chainsaw defense. Although, the fact that he was vehement about it even after the claim warrants a vote.

Vote: Dahill

So he doesn't think that attacking the tell is scummy, but yet he votes him for that same reason? Yeah, this vote was horrible.

[Amished]

OH! Anon: did the person you targeted get "shot" or "sliced"?

[Anon]

Shot.

[Amished]

There's a question that I feel should be extremely relevant to this game hovering at the edge of my conciousness regarding you, Anon, but it won't come to mind atm. Anything you want to talk about?

[Anon]

There's a question that I feel should be extremely relevant to this game hovering at the edge of my conciousness regarding you, Anon, but it won't come to mind atm. Anything you want to talk about?

I dont understand what you are saying, Amished.