Open 224 -- vengeful/Girls Alive! (Game Over)

[McGriddle]

I'm really not comfortable with anyone being at L-1 this early.

unvote

Why?

[/Facepalm]

You do realize we only have one chance to lynch scum right? And you're obviously who I am going to kill when I die, so if you are not scum I suggest you stop pushing for a terrible lynch based off of nothing on page 1, unless you want to lose. I don't think you are scum though, because scum wouldn't do something that balsey at the beginning of the game.

[TheButtonmen]

A) Threating to vig people who vote you in't really the best way to convince me your town.

B) We most likely have > 1 chance to lynch scum.

C) Huge diffrence between L-1 and a Hammer, why do worried about being at L-1?

[charter]

Wait, Fenchurch, you were serious about me being scum because I posted?

Yep.

Lol. Not even sure where to start ripping apart your nonexistent logic. Your reason is so ridiculously stupid you should be embarrassed. Riddle me this. Why am I scum for posting when the game started and you aren't? How does posting when the thread opens benefit me more as scum than as town? How do you know scum weren't lurking at the start to try and coordinate a quickhammer? What would the town thing to do have been, lurk my pants off?

Honestly not sure if you're scum here or just being really dumb.

Anyway, I'm gonna

unvote, vote McGriddle

. It's a VERY common newbscum mistake to threaten people with a vig at the first sign of trouble, which is what McGriddle did in post 25.

[Iecerint]

Should've known, should've cared --
Should've hung around the kitchen in my underwear,
Acting like a lady.
You should've made me.

Vote Count Two

charter

- 1 - Fenchurch

TheButtonmen

- 0 -

ShatteredViewpoint

- 0

Fenchurch

- 1 - McGriddle

McGriddle

- 2 - TheButtonmen, charter (L-1)

Not Voting:

Shattered Viewpoint

With 5 living, it's 3 to lynch.

[Shattered Viewpoint]

@TheButtonmen, charter:

Is this your first vengeful? An honest question.

I'm really not comfortable with anyone being at L-1 this early.

unvote

Why?

At the time of my unvote, we were at the bottom of page two. Far too early to be at L-1.

Plus, it was still my random vote.

[Fenchurch]

Lol. Not even sure where to start ripping apart your nonexistent logic.
<snip>

I disagree. It is perfectly possible for player or moderator post times to betray their alignment.

However, I've done some legwork this morning, going through times in all our post histories on msutils. My doc is here if you wanna see:
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dct9tvp2_1gcn22vff

Suffice to say, I don't think it is the case after all. If SV and TBM had both posted elsewhere and not here, then I think there is an argument for them not having noticed the topic, and therefore that you and McG were prompted to notice by the mafia qt closing. But it seems more likely that, as they say, the site was down for them that day.

For now...

unvote

.

[Fenchurch]

The other thing I've been looking at is previous vengeful games. It seems like most of the recent games have gone to the scum, but a little further back there are a few town wins. These are the games I found, if anyone else wants to look at them, for inspiration/advice/whatever:

Open 123
Open 92
Open 64

[McGriddle]

OMG. I am not threatening a vig kill. If you look at the friggin rules it clearly states that when you get killed you must make a kill on your way down. I was put at L-1 for no reason by player X so obviously I think he is scum because he put me at L-1 without a reason. IDK what the hammer voter would say/do so I could not make an educated guess on whether or not I would kill the hammer voter, but based off of what has happened I would have to kill player X because I think he is scum and I want to win this game. All I was saying is that if he is town he better give me at least a reason as to why he is putting me at L-1, because if he is town, and we lynch me and I kill him and we're both town he has single handedly lost the game for town.

[TheButtonmen]

You've clearly talking about me, but go out of your way to avoid using my name. Why the ambiguity?

[McGriddle]

You've clearly talking about me, but go out of your way to avoid using my name. Why the ambiguity?

I was showing an example of why what you did was stupid if you are both town and scum.

[charter]

@TheButtonmen, charter:

Is this your first vengeful?

No.

Fenchurch,

Why am I scum for posting when the game started and you aren't? How does posting when the thread opens benefit me more as scum than as town? How do you know scum weren't lurking at the start to try and coordinate a quickhammer? What would the town thing to do have been, lurk my pants off?

Please answer these. Also, why did you just unvote me? Who are you suspicious of now?

Also, McGriddle's "I would vig the person who put me at L-1" business is complete baloney, and his defense of it makes me pretty sure he is scum. If someone were to get quickhammered, guess who you vig?!?! The person who hammers you! Not the guy who put you at L-1.

[McGriddle]

There was no quickhammer, and he did not give an excuse.

[charter]

You were talking of who you would vig, which implies that you're town and got lynched. Yet you were saying you'd vig the person who put you at L-1. Doesn't make sense.

[McGriddle]

You were talking of who you would vig, which implies that you're town and got lynched. Yet you were saying you'd vig the person who put you at L-1. Doesn't make sense.

In this particular scenario the person who hammers is scum, but has a good reason to hammer me. I don't want to vig town, So I could either pick the person who put me at L-1 without a reason, or the person who hammered with a reason. Scum could just make up any reason they wanted to now and hammer me and I would Vig TheButtonmen because I think he is scum.

What I am saying is if you have a reason to put me at L-1 state it, but if you don't it is terrible play to do so.

[charter]

Are you the goon or godfather?

[TheButtonmen]

Scum could just make up any reason they wanted to now and hammer me and I would Vig TheButtonmen because I think he is scum.

Your the Godfather aren't you?

[charter]

Fenchurch, what's your opinion of McGriddle?
Shattered, your opinion on McGriddle?
McGriddle, your opinion of Fenchurch?

[Shattered Viewpoint]

Guys, guys, put down the knives.

Sheesh.

@Buttonmen: Is this your first vengeful? Don't make me google you.

@Fenchurch: I'm sure that's completely within the rules, and maybe even the spirit, of the game. But, for some reason, I can't articulate precisely why I feel so violated.

@charter: I think the entire argument is moving beyond useful. McG is looking a tad scummy, though, for cloaking TBM with 'player X' IMO.


(And for those just

looking

for a reason to ....whatever, I feel justified in threatening to google TBM due to Fenchurch's opening up that whole can of worms.)

[Fenchurch]

Why am I scum for posting when the game started and you aren't? How does posting when the thread opens benefit me more as scum than as town? How do you know scum weren't lurking at the start to try and coordinate a quickhammer? What would the town thing to do have been, lurk my pants off?

It's a little hard to answer these questions, some of them don't really apply. I was speculating that, because Icerint didn't send us a message to say the thread had opened, and because mods sometimes do post in the mafia quicktopic when the game begins, that early posters might be scum and late ones town. I'm aware that it's possible that to post early for other reasons, unrelated to role - I did it because I was waiting for this game to start, and I check the board often. And I know I'm the only one who could rule myself out like that; but I don't see that as a reason to ignore it as a case. I have dropped it though, because SV and Buttonmen gave reasons for their lateness, which are backed up by the post histories.

I wasn't saying you would have done it to benefit you, I was suggesting that you were told that the thread had opened and other two didn't.

It is possible that the scum could be the two late players instead - the quickhammer point seems stretching it, surely they can quickhammer whether they're lurkers or not; but there are other reasons scum might post late.

Right now I think that, in this game, the post times don't give good evidence either way.

I don't think it's townie to lurk, I believe lurking always benefits scum more than town.

Also, why did you just unvote me? Who are you suspicious of now?

Because I went through the post times and couldn't find anything to support. Although my gut says you might still be scum, I can't identify anything logically to support that.

Currently I'm most suspicious of SV, for telling people to calm down just now. I think I've seen scum act that way before.

Fenchurch, what's your opinion of McGriddle?

I'm not really convinced by the case on him. I don't know that I believe it is a newbscum move to threaten to vig. Do you have any examples to back that up?

@Fenchurch: I'm sure that's completely within the rules, and maybe even the spirit, of the game. But, for some reason, I can't articulate precisely why I feel so violated.
<snip>
(And for those just looking for a reason to ....whatever, I feel justified in threatening to google TBM due to Fenchurch's opening up that whole can of worms.)

I'm confused, what's within the rules? What can of worms did I open up?

[Shattered Viewpoint]

Stalking us via msutils.

[Fenchurch]

Oh, you're talking about the list of post times thing. Well... sorry, I guess?

[Fenchurch]

Okay I've been reading other games and then re-read ours through this morning.

Thing 1: I can't believe I didn't notice that mafia have daytalk. Is that standard for vengeful games? Anyway, I reckon that could be a huge boon to them and may change how they play... pointing it out in case anyone else wasn't aware of it.

Thing 2: McGriddle's post 32 is kinda sus actually. Besides the name-dodging 'player X' thing, there's the "even if you're town, I'm gonna vig you" threat, which I think is the kind of thing a scum player would say since they know the attacker is town.

Hmm.

[McGriddle]

Thing 2: McGriddle's post 32 is kinda sus actually. Besides the name-dodging 'player X' thing, there's the "even if you're town, I'm gonna vig you" threat, which I think is the kind of thing a scum player would say since they know the attacker is town.

Hmm.

Nay. I did not say that at all. Don't twist my words. I said I would vig him because I think he is scummy, all I am saying is that town or scum, putting me at L-1 in this short of a game without a reason is not beneficial to either faction.

[TheButtonmen]

[quote="Fenchurch"
Thing 2: McGriddle's post 32 is kinda sus actually. Besides the name-dodging 'player X' thing, there's the "even if you're town, I'm gonna vig you" threat, which I think is the kind of thing a scum player would say since they know the attacker is town.[/quote]

You thought 32 was bad? Take a look at 38.

[charter]

I'm not really convinced by the case on him. I don't know that I believe it is a newbscum move to threaten to vig. Do you have any examples to back that up?

Not really, it comes from playing a bunch of vengefuls in real life. I think I tried it the first time I was scum in a vengeful, and was immediately lynched. It happened to others as well.

Anyway, McGriddle is the Godfather. We got Shattered for the goon. No need to drag this on.