Mini 981: Descent into Chaos (Game Over)

[farside22]

Hi I"m back today but no time to really read right this second. Will officially be here tomorrow.

[farside22]

Okay so I'm trying my best to understand the sleep cycle thing. Here is what I think. Go day 1 scum hunt. We have 6 RL days to look for scum.
After day 1 if we lynch scum then people agree with a day in which they will go to sleep. Or we as a town vote on X player sleeps at this time, Y sleeps next and if we think someone is scummy they should should be told to sleep during the 3 day period. I'm sure scum will lie about their sleep period but if we force people we find scummy to take their sleep during the night and they don't from what I read people will get sleep deprieved and things can happen to them the less sleep they get.
Just things to watch.
If we don't lynch scum day 1 then a player we find scummiest in the game should be forced to sleep during day 2. Maybe do this towards the end of day 2.
What we need to watch out for.
Quick hammers
(secret moment here)
and then we just if a player most feel is town is noting they are getting sleep deprieved will be the only player to sleep at this time and no one else. We can't have too many people sleeping at the same time or scum controls the town if we are not careful.

[farside22]

What would having someone scummy sleep during the DAY do for us?

Further, you can only choose to sleep at the BEGINNING of a phase.

As for scum controlling town, that's why I would prefer either everyone sleep at once (at night), or we come up with an acceptable stagger schedule.

UK your deluding yourself if you believe scum is going to chose to sleep at night and all this does is give them free reigh during the night. What is the point of this?
During the day scum being asleep means a player we find scummy isn't voting or if they have a day action isn't using it.
What ever it means.

[farside22]

Without sleep things like votes and such don't count.

vote: UK

Your plan is more pro-scum. You say they stay awake we know but it will take 4 phase days to know who this affects and this doesn't stop people for posting for 48 hours to counter attack the 3 days they are affected during the sleep.
Town no info at night. Scum kill during the night = scum win.

[farside22]

However, if scum don't sleep during the night (eventually), it becomes obvious who they are.

And, no, farside. They are only not voting for HALF THE PHASE. The first half, so it doesn't even prevent hammers.

Also having most of the town sleep during the half day doesn't stop scum from carrying most of the votes and hammering early during lylo. That should be something that think about and sleep should be something most think about if the town looks close to being in that type of situation.
Which I don't see you mentioning in this wait till day 3 or 4 phase and putting the amount of scum left in the game at that point into the calculations.

[farside22]

@Pitt: Why would I lie about my claim? *poses*

Vote: UK

I don't see why we should be discussing the sleep mechanic this early, especially since it hasn't affected any of us yet in the slightest bit. Therefore, I see this as an attempt for town cred, which is scummy all on its own. ie:

'Oh look at me! I'm discussing the set-up! I'm town!'

*in the shadows* hehehehehe

.

Let's cross the bridge when we get there, hm?

This is terrible reasoning. Discussing the sleep patterns or how best to use them isn't scummy. It could be trying to make town cred but if no one brings it up then it's never discussed and your in a catch 22.
I see nothing wrong with the discussion as there could be something that makes a person more tired in the game. I just think UK's idea of having everyone sleep during the night is assign. It's better to vote on those who the town finds the scummiest to not sleep during the night. If someone doesn't comply we won't know (if scum) till either lynched or day 3 or 4 if they start getting sleep deprived.

[farside22]

I noticed one thing I didn't the first time I read. Apparently anyone sleeping during the day will be known but not at night.

Mod: If someone goes sleep deprived will this effect the vote count for all to see during the day?
IE: after 4 days of no sleep for me and I vote. Will my vote show as or will it not count?

Yes. If you vote for someone while sleep-deprived and your vote gets randomized/fails to occur, the vote count will show where your vote winds up.

[farside22]

UK this was your comment on why everyone sleeping during the night will catch scum

However, if scum don't sleep during the night (eventually), it becomes obvious who they are.

And, no, farside. They are only not voting for HALF THE PHASE. The first half, so it doesn't even prevent hammers.

This takes 4 days to happen and I'm sorry scum stupid? Since when. They (I assume always more then one) can stagger sleep too.
This does nothing to help the town. Asking everyone to sleep during the night is a bad plan and you were the one who suggested everyone sleep every night. I read Nik's plan he had everyone sleeping during N3.
I still say this should depend on how many scum we think (typically 3) minus any scum lynched and vote for those to sleep during X night and stagger it.
Having everyone sleep X night doesn't stop the scum. It's easy to bypass if you just think about it.

[farside22]

On a side note I will say in regards to UK my gut feel on easjo's post was scummy. Something pinged me hard core with her post.
Also UK why would you assume scum don't have a plan to counter this idea your propossing for everyone to sleep every night (again you did state this in a post where Nik stated only 1 night to do this).
I'm more of the oppinion of stagnating sleep. I dont' see scum following along with this plan. Part of me thinks someone we think town sleeping half of day 2 is not a bad idea either. I would rather those that people feel are most town get to sleep during the day then at night.

[farside22]

Give me a break down of the plan then UK. All I see is Nik talking about Day 3.
You stated the following:

The one I advocated was sleeping every night, but that DOES effectively make it so that we are guaranteed to not have a kill every three nights unless scum are stupid.

So please explain how I misrep'ed this post and comment?

I say stagger sleep. Here is why. Scum is going to do what ever the F@#$ they want to do. We can try any number of things to catch them but in the end they can lie and lie easily.
Staggering sleep. Those we feel are most likely scum should sleep. Those that are town should sleep during the day. We don't need to sleep every day.
D2 have results discuss result. Decide again between us who should sleep at night and who should sleep during the first part of the day. I think those we feel scummy day 1 should be forced till we lynch them continue to sleep during the night. Problem I see is if player is scum they can lie so this may be useless to us.
I'm hoping for trackers, jks or rb's for the town at this point to ensure people that town feels are scummy are watched during the night. This may keep the scum scared at the very least.

[farside22]

Oh, as an aside, if we do have some level of success lynching scum, I suggest the "nightless game" idea be revisited since it will be much harder for scum to stagger their sleep as their numbers drop.

may would agree with this depending on # of players alive at that point.
Problem again is that it takes 4 day phases for anyone to know if someone is effected.

[farside22]

If they are scum and they miss their sleep cycle, their votes / NKs / abilities will miss, which we will either notice or will backfire against them.

But again, that takes 4 phases to reach, and isn't a guarantee. Scum are likely to stagger their sleep.

We're going to schedule each player to sleep once every 3 phases, if they miss their sleep phase, they will go 2 phases fatigued, which means at least one day phase and one night phase.

What stops scum from doing this? honestly?

On a side note ABR is looking really town in my view. not sure about the chrono and vis feel but agree with everything else. Pitt and easjo do seem the most scummiest. Not sure on the 3rd.

unvote:
vote: Easjo

[farside22]

UK: I'm trying very hard not to explain why I see a loop hole in your plan. I would like to not help scum with what I would see as a way to get around the sleep plan. I think someone else mentioned it and that is as far as I'm going to go into saying why scum can and will find a way around doing what the town feels best.

[farside22]

Do you mean my day plan or night plan? Cause my day plan should for the most part work if we can break down the numbers. The night plan, I'm only half heartedly arguing for since at this point I'm not overly enamored with it but feel it should be explored somewhat to make sure there's no hope, if that makes sense?

The night plan. The day plan really is more hey lets sleep so are votes count helps town and scum. So sleeping during the day doesnt' do much but this is why I stated I would rather have those I feel most pro-town sleep during the day and I like what ABR stated about doing a 3 day cycle.
Trust me there is a loop hole in the night plan that scum can make and discussing it helps scum more out so....yeah your going to have to give me a good reason to share how to break your plan.

[farside22]

I say we stop planning out when people are going to sleep, it will do nothing for us, the scum will still be able to act as they wish and if we annoce it then they will know whos asleep when and therefore eliminate possiblities when night action/PR happen therefore they will be able to narrow down a potential list of who it is beneficial to kill.

This is the only reason I find sleeping during the day over night better. Scum knows X is asleep so they target Y.
But also my plan says town finds X and Y scummy and says hey you need to sleep tonight and can't sleep during the day. I can see a loop hole if x is scum but not Y but if both are scum loop holes can be found. But my hope is if we think X and Y we just lynch one or the other the next day.
I would rather force those we find the scummiest not to sleep during the day.

[farside22]

Well we can all agree that UK's night plan was....less than stellar. It got discussion going though and I don't think it was scum-motivated.

That reminds me.

*adds VV to scum list.

carry on.

[farside22]

Last post for now.
Why Easjo looks scummy with just 2 post.
easjo: says pretty much what I did and doesn't question further. Pretty much I think X is scum and nothing new added to post.
second post is a lie in my view. If this is a catch up post why only talk about one player and their plan and nothing else.
A catch up as views on what everyone stated and what you feel or think of everyone or the situation.

[farside22]

UK: Explain what I'm supposed to interupt with this statement then?

I'm not overly enamored with it but feel it should be explored somewhat to make sure there's no hope, if that makes sense?

[farside22]

Sorry UK I just see the down side to the sleep of night. I can see a loop hole. Get back to the idea when were down to one scum in the game and # of town and I'm there with you.
easjo: UK wasn't the only one to say anything about it the sleep cycle. Why didn't you comment about nik's plan?
You're first post comes off as just following along with what I said to UK but nothing more. Questioning, commenting and coming forth and arguing your point on why UK is scum didn't come (granted I now see you are busy on the weekend) but why do you still think UK is scum?

[farside22]

This is the only reason I find sleeping during the day over night better. Scum knows X is asleep so they target Y.
But also my plan says town finds X and Y scummy and says hey you need to sleep tonight and can't sleep during the day. I can see a loop hole if x is scum but not Y but if both are scum loop holes can be found. But my hope is if we think X and Y we just lynch one or the other the next day.
I would rather force those we find the scummiest not to sleep during the day.

I dont fully understand how this works. Is there another way you could explain it? Why not have the scummiest players sleep at night, therefore, it they are scum, they are either forced to lie or unable to kill. If they are unable to kill yay for us. If they are lieing, we have them stay awake n2, then we can test their votes on d3. To see if they actually slept N1. What do people think?

Okay so the town says hey I think you need to sleep tonight. The scum knows player is town and they don't have to worry about that player if he sleeps as requested.
Scum will target someone else that is town instead as player alseep means no threat to scum and not info gained during the night if there is info to be gained by said player.
If you ever played scum most of the time they usually go after the most town player in the game anyways and leave those less then stellar in the game. It's just strategy.
Trust me there is a big loop hole you are missing in this that make it easy for scum to lie. (of course I'm going off an assumption based on most mafia games and abilities scum gain) But I will gladly make an ass out of myself in this situation then tell the scum the loop hole.

[farside22]

Nik: How can you agree with a a plan you don't understand? Why would you agree to something you dont' understand.
UK: Stop yelling at people and take a deep breathe. I stopped accusing you a few pages ago. I was just saying talking about the night plan is almost useless in my view. That is all. Geez

[farside22]

Pitt: Why are you helping the scum out with telling them the best way to escape from a plan?
UK: I want a break down of your plan because I didn't see what Nik says was the plan.
VV: discussing the sleep idea is not a waste of discussion and I see UK doing both discussion and scum hunting.

[farside22]

So town doesn't do something stupid, obviously. That argument should probably stop coming up in mechanics discussions; either town needs to get seriously informed, or left totally in the dark. Don't wishywash in between, that leads to a scum advantage in information. Obviously, with all the talk about sleep plans, you can't make the playerbase ignorant about sleeping by now; ergo, spread the information far and wide and make sure you've clearly outlined where scum could try to find cracks so that either you fix it or another player does. Repeat until a solid plan is established.

How do you fix something like that?
@UK: Seriously walk away from the game. Take a deep breathe and come back tomorrow. Your attitude is grating right now.
As for discussing who would sleep day 2 at the start I agree maybe 3 may 4 people max to sleep tomorrow. I say play it day by day how many sleep each day.
If we lynch scum today then 4 people that didn't sleep day 2 get to sleep day 3 at the start. I think this may hurt some people by day 4 so those who didn't sleep during the day (lets call this the scummiest players) can only sleep during the night.
What is wrong with forcing those we find the scummiest not to sleep during the day?

[farside22]

I still vote that those we find the scummiest dont' sleep during the day. If any person we find scummy sleeps during the day they should be lynched.
By the way I'm good with waiting to sleep till day 2 or day 3.

Please explain why this is a bad idea for those saying just sleep during the day. If the town is right about who is scum and forcing those they find scummy to sleep at night even though they may still stagger sleep this still forced scum to have one player sleep at night.

[farside22]

If the town is right about who is scum and forcing those they find scummy to sleep at night even though they may still stagger sleep this still forced scum to have one player sleep at night.

Thus reducing tracker targets, etc.

Not really just because scum can't sleep during the day (since the town will lynch them for disobeying) they will have to figure out a way to sleep or be screwed up at some point in the game.

[farside22]

Oh Kenman scum with easjo/VV.
That was easy.

[farside22]

Everyone sleeps during the day, this makes it so no one will sleep without the town knowing. The scummiest people sleep at night, therefore, if they are scum they are unable to use their abilities or they have to stay awake and kill, If they do that, they run the risk of being caught through vote randomization. If they sleep during the day, when they are not assigned they are caught as well. Im not too sure if there is a way to prevent scum from stagggering sleep besides the obvious fact of catching all of them but the plan is decent and will provide organization and control.

I never said everyone sleep during the day. I have been saying over and over those we find the scummiest should be forced to sleep at night or be lynched.
I have no idea why UK keeps ignoring this point and forcing people to pick a day to sleep.
So far there is 4 people asking to sleep day 2 (which I think it's fair to discuss) beyond day 2 I would be saying no to certain people sleeping.

[farside22]

Everyone sleeps during the day, this makes it so no one will sleep without the town knowing. The scummiest people sleep at night, therefore, if they are scum they are unable to use their abilities or they have to stay awake and kill, If they do that, they run the risk of being caught through vote randomization. If they sleep during the day, when they are not assigned they are caught as well. Im not too sure if there is a way to prevent scum from stagggering sleep besides the obvious fact of catching all of them but the plan is decent and will provide organization and control.

I never said everyone sleep during the day. I have been saying over and over those we find the scummiest should be forced to sleep at night or be lynched.
I have no idea why UK keeps ignoring this point and forcing people to pick a day to sleep.
So far there is 4 people asking to sleep day 2 (which I think it's fair to discuss) beyond day 2 I would be saying no to certain people sleeping.

[farside22]

Then just HOW are we going to verify that the "scummiest people" actually slept? And what does that accomplish anyone except nerfing our townie players who eventually need sleep? I don't see how your plan works EXCEPT as possibly in conjuction with mine.

What do I care if the scummiest player slept at night. Scum not sleeping during the day means more fuck up for them. Them sleeping during the day does what for the town?
Seriously STOP FUCKING BITCHING TO EVERYONE!

[farside22]

Someone beside UK give me the break down of what the attacks are. I'm seriously getting tired of UK's verge attack and bitching in every other post.

[farside22]

Why is it not a waste?
Because scum can talk about what's best for them. Town work together to spoil their plans means better things for the town. That is why discussion the sleep idea's is not a waste of time.
As for scum hunting yeah it's more yelling/bitching at people and calling them stupid then not listening to others and screaming on top of them but I would not say she's scum. Just bitchy town.

[farside22]

UK: I'm saying the same thing about people not sleeping during the day that we find the scummiest. There is nothing to stop a player from sleeping at night you know.

[farside22]

UK: I no longer think (if I did) that VV is scum. I read him as scum in a game this is almost like a 180 from that game.
I do have Pitt and Easjo on my scum list right now. vIQleS disappeared and hasn't said much and the last time I thought chrono was town he was scum so I have a more steady uncertain eye on him (yeah this is from Pledge)

Anyways that's my scum list and as for me I'm not around as much these days.
*rants about work here* See General discussion for what happened.

[farside22]

@Farside: what's your read given my play in Fire and Ice 2? (discounting the last part of the day)

and is the supernatural that you're taking pre-/ins for based on the TV show?

Fire and Ice you came off scummy and was town.

Yes the pre/ins (now taking sign ups) is for the tv show Supernatural.

[farside22]

grab talisman of protection

[farside22]

Grab: Fetish-Crafting Kit

Okay first off.

Ken: Why did you not say anything about me and how is it that PittBunny get's town points mostly for talking set up while not scum hunting

Second someone tried to kill me last night. I had a potion I took last night that protected me and was informed by PM that someone stabbed me but because of the potion I was healed.
I don't know who tried to kill me.
Easjo: As much as you can say right now in one post. Do you know why you were res'ed? Who do you find scum?

I need one quick reread but Pitt and Ken with a possible RC is on my scum list.

[farside22]

@Mod: Can we change our minds on actions, or are submitted actions final?

Pretty sure we can. I asked SK like 20 questions about things I didn't understand and changed my mind which he accepted.

[farside22]

Grab Encyclopedia Daemonica (IC: 4)

Some one stole from me last night. Looks like we have a scum looter. Anyone want to tell me why there was a hammer from Kenman on a player that was asleep?

[farside22]

grab Book of Spells (IC: 3)

Not sure how much I can hold. I keep getting told things that just don't make sense to me with this game.

[farside22]

@farside – yesterday you said,

“someone tried to kill me last night. I had a potion I took last night that protected me and was informed by PM that someone stabbed me but because of the potion I was healed.”

Last night you say someone stole from you. Was the item stolen from you the potion that protected you N1? If not....what was stolen?

Assuming the potion was stolen from you last night, did you try to use it again last night before it was stolen?

Yes the item stolen from me was the potion that protected me.
No I didn't not drink the potion last night I tried to give one to someone I believed was town and was blocked.

I'm going to go back and read right now.

[farside22]

havingfitz (Jonqin Aldertoss) vIQleS - replaced viques, having fits questions the one person who was rez'ed, says he's read the thread but has not stated a single scum suspect at all.
This is very different play from our last game together and I could see havingfitz scum this game.



Chronopie (Marya Torr) - votes for Easjo with no case. Claims his night results hasn't given him anything but doesn't expand. Why soft claim and add nothing to the game?
Chrono's made only observations and has not done any scum hunting this game. He's made very few points and has yet to say who he finds scum.

I read as probable scum.



easjo682 - easjo had that big argument was lynched and flipped town and res'ed but hasn't posted since June 3rd
What was it that ABR stated that made you believe he was scum?
Need more info but the town flip is one thing I wonder if someone rez'ed will change alignments in the back of my head

I noticed that there was a death at the end of day 1 with UK but no one died day 2. I'm a bit behind but did anyone claim that kill for that day?
If not we should look at those who were alseep during day 2 as a day assassin of sorts.

[farside22]

@Pittbunny: Who is scum and why?
@havingfits: What is your oppinion of pittbunny in this game versus the last game the 3 of us were in together?