Newbie 955 - Game over

[redtail896]

MrSandman (2) Hoopla, RayFrost
AdumbroDeus (2) Adaham, LobsterCatapult
kingcod (3) MrSandman, AdumbroDeus, redtail896
(No vote) Valkyrie, kingcod
9 alive; 5 votes lynch.

So, yes, my ideas are unpopular, might as well use that fact to scumhunt while I'm around.

So, I'm willing to believe that you're simply used to a different style of mafia game (side note: I once played mafia with a group that played 30 person games using 3 mafia and 1 cop. No day phase lasted longer than 3 minutes. I was completely useless (I hate lynching people that quickly). So I understand that different people play very differently). Regardless of personal opinions though, I think we've moved past the point of lynching somebody because they're a weak player. While I admit that our odds are slim, I think that we can come up with something other than that.

What's the scummiest thing you think I have done?

Your MrSandman vote. I don't mind starting a bandwagon that early (although I still think the reasoning was rather flimsy), but then after the bandwagon started you just disappeared. It left me with the feeling that you wanted to create the image of a devoted scumhunter while doing minimal actual scumhunting. I do like the numerical analysis though, but I still hope that we can get something reasonable out of this.

@Sandman: I don't think I am being any more or less defensive than anyone else. Anyhow, the first section of your reply post 134 was useful, even if middle bit was rather OMGUS and the latter end got a bit irate! I'm satisfied you've traced back the initial evidence for the vote on you to something which now looks weak.

For this reason

unvote sandman

I don't think a day one lynch for sandman is useful when there may be some more appropriate targets. Sorry guys.

This, on top of rereading all of kingcod's posts, makes me think that he is looking too hard to fit in with the crowd. When challenged on his vote, it backs down relatively easily (without ever really giving a reason for the vote in the first place), and his suspicions seem to fall wherever is in vogue at the moment. And I still don't like the reasoning for that FOS.

In short, kingcod is looking more suspicious to me now than he did a page ago. And, turning my head to practical matters for a bit, I foresee difficulty in getting a majority willing to lynch Hoopla. So, although I'm still suspicious of Hoopla, I'm willing to

Unvote. Vote: kingcod

[RayFrost]

@RayFrost You claim that your MrSandman vote was a bandwagon pressure vote. Does it still serve that purpose? Are you willing to lynch MrSandman?

Well, pressure votes fail once you admit what they are. So it doesn't. I'm not willing to lynch sandman, but I currently have no better place for my vote, so I see no reason to unvote. He's not close to a lynch, so yeah.

[LobsterCatapult]

@LobsterCatapult

hoopla comes across as town from me, though the presumptuous asking of opinions and votes seems more aggressive than scum.

Is this list of questions aggressive? Is is scummy?

hey, i found some time to post after all (btw this smilie is cute)

ok to business.

i dont see it as too scummy because you have posted a lot of content for someone who just joined., andhoopla comes across as more, asking questions for everyone, like kingcod, and addressing everyone, while you have questions for individuals. i like individual questions better becuase, imo, it comes across as less fishing and more...idk fun? i almost feel offended when general questions are posed without much content for the game with it because im stubborn and im like...why should i respond to you? what have you done for me lately? i know this an immature way of looking at it, and thus why i have been mature and responded, but, i must admit thats my initial reaction.

hoopla has a lot of good statistical data, but she has been posting a lot of general knowledge so far, and not a lot about this individual game and these circumstances, which i think is why we are getting on adumbro's case a bit too. i cant say this information isnt helping, but IF hoopla is scum, which is possible, i dont know if its too probable, maybe she is making up the stats. i mean, im trying to be skeptical without being paranoid and for now ill take her information as on the level, but there is always the possibility it isnt, and i think we should recognize the possibility is there. i think that hoopla is a better player than adumbro and in terms of using blanket mafia information to help in this game, i think they have both integrated this style of play into this game.

@Valkyrie Do you like Pearl Jam?

^ LOL this is great

anyway, now looking back on kingcods play, he does seem to flip flop a lot, im begining to see that he can be complacent, he even accuses mr sandman of tunneling...and then revoking it later when slightly pressured about it. i mean, tbh, kingcod and sandman have acted in similar ways to different situations, esp in terms of voting, but sandman comes across as more genuine. i mean, people can change their minds, but, i am begining to see how he can be easily swayed, mr sandman seems to have matured in this game, and has some more solid reasoning rather than kingcod.

idk, in conclusion due to recent activity...i suppose if i were to make a simple spectrum, from town to mafia itd be:

me, adaham,ray, redtail/hoopla(tied so far....),sandman,valkyrie, kingcod and adumbro are close

is becoming more and more suspecious the more i look into it.

im sticking with adumbro

for now

, i think kingcod also has the propensity, like sandman to have too much "scumdar" into not so scummy things, like with sandman's aggresiveness into sp's defense of my typo, and with kingcod the PM debate, and his FoS of adaham. and this could lead to distractions and trying to pin newbs with pressure thats not warrented.

[Korejora]

Me=Weird replaces Valkyrie.

[Me=Weird]

Hi, hopefully I'll be caught up by tonight.

[MrSandman]

Hi, hopefully I'll be caught up by tonight.

Thanks for replacing.

@MrSandman Do you sympathize at all with the bandwagon against you?

At this point, no. I was alright with it at first becuase things were just starting out and there's always someone bandwagoned pretty early in my experience. When it didn't go away I got concerned about it though. The fact that Rayforst says she`s not willing to lynch me yet still says there`s no place better to put it really rubs me the wrong way.

why did you devote and entire post to a single unvote on page 1 (with literally no reasoning attached)?

I was just posting what I felt. It was my first game back and thought we would just be kidding around for the first few pages. Boy was I wrong.

CALM DOWN MY NEWBIES, HELPFULNESS ISN'T A SCUMTELL!

Also, I understand the paranoia about ending the day too quickly. I too was raised on the maxim of 'never rushing the day', but using time just for the sake of using time IS A DAMAGING LONG-TERM MENTALITY to fall into. It drops off awareness, dwindles interest in the game, and makes data harder to analyse the next day. I have had much more success in scumhunting after a short 100-150 post day, than chatting and circular arguments for 300 posts.

It came off as scummy to me. I`m glad you helped get some discussion going but I didn`t get being so eager to lynch. I`ve noted that you explained why you said it.

[Me=Weird]

Hi, hopefully I'll be caught up by tonight.

Thanks for replacing.

I love replacing.

Read the thread, but I'm going to do some ISO's, and you'll probably be seeing a case when I'm done.

[kingcod]

Now then, to respond to your actual statements, then why did you immediately FoS the guy who went after me for doing WHAT YOU OBVIOUSLY DISAGREE WITH.

Now, please explain why you chose to do that.

My FOS was because I saw it as an attempt by Adaham to stir discontent amongst town - in other words he was attempting to escalate my criticism of your voting style into a scum vote on you.

You seem to be confusing me disagreeing with your approach to weeding out weak players (and other players think the same) with me hunting scum. I said you were 'right to raise the debate', but I disagreed with your voting method on principle. Clearer?

And does that also help you Redtail896? Could you explain why you think Hoopla's vote on Sandman is scummy, but my unvote of Sandman is also scummy? It was hardly as if I made a a rapid switch - it has taken me seven days of seeing the game develop to unvote him!

I must say being responsive to the developments in this game seems to be taken as a sign of weakness by a few of us. I've been trying damned hard to take account of the views of the rest of town, noting where I agree and where I disagree- but not using it as some kind of bandwagon opportunity. I give a reason for each and every one of my votes, but unlike some have the good grace to identify if and when I have been mistaken.

I am not keen on either of the wagons running at the moment -Sandman made mistakes earlier on and is still being punished, and AdumbroDeus got voted for some similar early game gung-ho and some flailing about with some 'bizarre' points.

This leads me to think that one or possibly two of those voting on these two could be scum. I'll need to do some re-reading to decide who it might be.

[redtail896]

Could you explain why you think Hoopla's vote on Sandman is scummy, but my unvote of Sandman is also scummy? It was hardly as if I made a a rapid switch - it has taken me seven days of seeing the game develop to unvote him!

Certainly. I consider Hoopla's vote suspicious because of poor reasoning. And that in and of itself wouldn't be nearly so bad if she hadn't then started lurking for a bit, leading (I think) to the impression that she was more of a dedicated scumhunter than she really was. In short, it wasn't the vote itself, so much as the subsequent actions and the image I think it created.

Similarly, your unvote of MrSandman isn't suspicious by itself, but rather the circumstances surrounding it. First let's read post #127. (NB: I provided links instead of quoting these posts to massively reduce the size of this WoT. I encourage you to read the posts yourselves) In this post, you are clearly still very suspicious of MrSandman. This is your very next post. Now, your suspicions of MrSandman have quickly been alleviated - right when you were starting to be attacked on that vote. You then start to become more suspicious of Hoopla, another trend that had become stronger recently. In both instances, you rely on the logic of other people, and add little analysis of your own.

In fact, let's examine all of your votes. You've voted for people twice and placed one FoS. Your first vote was against AdumbroDeus and was, by your own admission, an opening "fun" vote. Your second vote was against MrSandman, and the provided reasoning was

Not Liking Sandman's recent posts. Do we get to hear the gist of that PM to Valkyrie to be sure its not" 'kill them - kill them all!' *evil cackle* "

Not a great example of well-explained reasoning. You later clarify this as meaning that you agreed with Hoopla's general reasoning. Your FoS was against Adaham for "stirring discontent." First of all, this is arguably not a bad thing in a mafia game; arguing is how we get information. Secondly, he made a legitimate point, and was hardly stirring discontent for the sake of it. So I don't really find that you've substantiated your votes.

In short, I see your unvote in the larger context of a general pattern of looking to be where the wind is blowing. You seem to be trying to fit into the current popular trend, and most of your logic seems to be borrowed from others, not your own.

[Hoopla]

Could you explain why you think Hoopla's vote on Sandman is scummy, but my unvote of Sandman is also scummy? It was hardly as if I made a a rapid switch - it has taken me seven days of seeing the game develop to unvote him!

Certainly. I consider Hoopla's vote suspicious because of poor reasoning. And that in and of itself wouldn't be nearly so bad if she hadn't then started lurking for a bit, leading (I think) to the impression that she was more of a dedicated scumhunter than she really was. In short, it wasn't the vote itself, so much as the subsequent actions and the image I think it created.

What was poor about my reasoning, mister? I thought it was damn sound reasoning.

[Me=Weird]

Mod: Limited access today, very limited access tomorrow.

[kingcod]

Similarly, your unvote of MrSandman isn't suspicious by itself, but rather the circumstances surrounding it.

Nope, not suspicious. I can't be more explicit than this in my reason to unvote can I:

@Sandman: Anyhow, the first section of your reply post 134 was useful, even if middle bit was rather OMGUS and the latter end got a bit irate! I'm satisfied you've traced back the initial evidence for the vote on you to something which now looks weak.

Anyway, I'm done with purists who think that its only valid to vote on someone with unique reasoning. This stifles the game and makes it grind to a halt. If I see something in what another player has said that I agree with then yes, it will influence my vote. I would love to see a player manage to track down and lynch mafia completely without taking account of reasoning that was not their own.

@ Hoopla -can you come back on my observation here:

Hoopla's play has indeed been quite structured and unusual. part helpdesk, part bandwagon leader. It might be a case of actin too perfect (yeah I know this might sound warped) - the meta-analysis of every game since Noah was particularly inspired - but could it be an 'authoratative' camouflage?

[Hoopla]

@ Hoopla -can you come back on my observation here:

Hoopla's play has indeed been quite structured and unusual. part helpdesk, part bandwagon leader. It might be a case of actin too perfect (yeah I know this might sound warped) - the meta-analysis of every game since Noah was particularly inspired - but could it be an 'authoratative' camouflage?

I don't think it is has been that structured, unless you mean you are noticing different aspects of play in different posts, then...yes. I can understand the authorative fears, and I suppose the reason I have toned my play down is due to being a bit busier in my life, and because I know I get pushy when I don't get what I want.

But I don't think being helpdesk-ish at times is a substancial crime (if it is even one). I dig the theory chats, because it makes it easier to explain where I am coming from if people have a deeper understanding of my philosophies.

[redtail896]

What was poor about my reasoning, mister? I thought it was damn sound reasoning.

His play reads like scum walking on eggshells, making sure not to offend. He's backed down twice this game, once from the only definitive stance he's taken this game - his vote on Valkyrie. It just reeks of scum trying to fit in, rather than genuine curiosity or interest behind others' motivations.

It looks like you're taking a serious stance on non-posters, but then make up for your lack of sailor mention with a casual joke. 'I was just teasing' - plays down the potential seriousness of your lurker-vote which stops anyone finding you scummy for it, if there was no serious intent behind it.

So, was it serious? Why not place a serious vote now? In conclusion, why so serious?

I just don't find any of what you seemed to see in MrSandman's early play. He didn't show a real desire to avoid confrontation or offense (although not wanting to offend anybody isn't necessarily a scumtell in my opinion; I don't want to offend anybody either; I could be much more inflammatory (of course, maybe you're suspicious of me)). He didn't do a whole lot of backing down, he didn't seem to be trying to fit in, and he wasn't taking a serious stance on non-posters. I know that there's no real way to have a great case on Day 1, especially that early, but you made it sound as if you had no doubt in your mind. In short, I think you took a few little things and blew them way out of proportion. That's why I think your reasoning was poor.

Alright, I know I'm about to do the same thing I criticized Hoopla for, but discussion has been lagging the past few days (although, in my defense, discussion was happening at a brisker pace back then). Do we think we have the ability to come to some kind of consensus? Do we need more discussion? As I write this, we have just barely over 9 days left before we go to night.

[LobsterCatapult]

idk, ive been waiting to hear what me=weird has to say. is kingcod at L-1?

imo, kingcod has a point, we are all influenced by different peoples opnions, and if we base an action off other's reasoning, i dont necessarily see how that is ineffective/scummy or otherwise. i mean, i dont think this clears kingcod of any suspecion, but it brings up a valid point that it does help the game progress, and people grow if they think they can agree with anothers reasoning, build off it, and take action without fear of automatically being a sheep or buddying up, or being scummy.

but i agree with redtail, that kingcod i dont think you did a very good job articulating what reasoning you were borrowing from.

[kingcod]

but i agree with redtail, that kingcod i dont think you did a very good job articulating what reasoning you were borrowing from.

Okay, so this is something I can respond to:

Vote on Sandman: Hoopla post 36 and 39 I liked. RayFrost's vote post 58 picked up the now notorious PM issue.

UnVote on Sandman: Redtails post 131, Sandman's post 134.

Oh and I think I am L-2, is that right? Its still 5 to lynch?

I suppose the reason I have toned my play down is due to being a bit busier in my life, and because I know I get pushy when I don't get what I want.

I won't comment on the first bit, but the second point is giving me the jitters. Or is it just me?

I agree with redtail that posting is beginning to lag. AdumbroDeus? Adaham? You there mateys?

[AdumbroDeus]

Watching the thread, it's causing a bit of a vicious cycle, there was so little coming in, that I didn't have much to really add to my comments before.


So let's break it shall we?

Could I get everyone's top 3 lynch targets and why?

@ Adaham, do you still think I'm more suspicious then Kingcod? If so why?

[MrSandman]

Could I get everyone's top 3 lynch targets and why?

Most people have already answered this. I would like to hear your answer for your own question though.

Rayfrost too. Me, valkyrie and kingcod where his earlier suspects but Valk has been replaced, he recently stated he's not willing to lynch me and he's yet to vote for Kingcod.

[redtail896]

Could I get everyone's top 3 lynch targets and why?

Most people have already answered this. I would like to hear your answer for your own question though.

Rayfrost too. Me, valkyrie and kingcod where his earlier suspects but Valk has been replaced, he recently stated he's not willing to lynch me and he's yet to vote for Kingcod.

This. My top three are probably kingcod, Hoopla, and a tie between RayFrost and AdumbroDeus, but everybody already knew that. I'm more interested in the people who haven't really given suspicions.

[LobsterCatapult]

...i dont see where posting our top three will get us anywhere. i already said i really dont like straight out questions like these....you, kingcod and hoopla sure to have similar strategies to spur the game along >.>

top lynches thus far

1)adumbro
2)kingcod
3)-------

im not comfortable with a lynch that is any other than these two candidates thus far. maybe im being closed minded, but with the evidence presented to me, these 2 i find the scummiest, and the rest are floating around in the unsure pool. i think these are the best lynches, though...hoopla has been coming across as less and less town...but im still not bought, something tells me this is just how hoopla does things. im kinda torn between my gut feeling for hoopla, and the logic being presented. i like her explination of theory chats, i suppose i just wish she would connect the dots a bit better?

im willing to change this idea on my "lynch list" if there are better arugments, however, now, i think these two are the way to go.
@kingcod. ok, i see, those were things i found suspicious at first as well.

[Me=Weird]

Sorry I had to go v/la right after replacing in. I'm about to finish some ISO's.

[MrSandman]

Sorry I had to go v/la right after replacing in. I'm about to finish some ISO's.

Good to hear. We really could use another to get revive everyone. Still waiting for AdumbroDeus and Rayfrost.

[kingcod]

Just checking in really. The ISO will be helpful from Me=Weird. I'm kind of grinding to a halt on making a choice on a vote. I would prefer not to churn over old material but in answer to AdumbroDeus I am thinking about Hoopla, Adaham, RayFrost and Me=Weird as possible lynch candidates. I'm not getting very strong vibes from any of them though!

[Korejora]

The first day will end in about a week.

[LobsterCatapult]

can we get votals? im terrible at math @___@