Riddle Me This! NY111 - mafia dead - Town wins!

[Cove]

inHimshallibe: You're right that you did not vote VasudeVa, sorry about that. And though it's duely noted about Richard, one thing my analysis really looks for (by not counting unvotes) is who appears to be throwing their vote around, and one of those people is you.

Do you really care who we lynch? I am not getting the feeling that you do. I also get that same feeling about VasudeVa and dahill1. Is there anything other than ksun's vote on dahill1 that suggests they're not the same alignment? Did I miss something important?

dahill1: Have you abandoned the mipe wagon angle now that you found that zoraster was not on it? Or is that still coming? You've posted 4 times so far during Day 3 and I've only seen a promise that you will hunt for scum.

VasudeVa: Right now, before any wagon starts, who are your top two suspects?

[Cove]

EBWOP:

VasudeVa: Make that top 3, and some reasons would be nice.

[VasudeVa]

Quag - Korts push -> Korts dies for little to no reason(Korts wasn't exactly doing well D1) -> seemingly telegraphed 'Oh darn, I was so sure Korts was scum! *pout*

Fonz - Disliked the wagon on me + reluctance to join the zoraster wagon

Not sure on number three yet. Off the top of my head: scot or iamusername. Not yet sure though.

[farside22]

vote count:

don_johnson (2) inHimshallibe, VasudeVa
Mr chaos (1) don_Johnson
VasudeVa (1) Cove

Not voting:

iamausername
RichardGHP
Mr. Chaos
DizzyIzzyB
scotmany12
Anon
Mipe
Fonz
Yosairan
dahill

With 14 alive it will take 8 to lynch
Deadline June 6th, 10:07pm PST

Will look into prodding anyone that hasn't posted recently tomorrow.

[The Fonz]

Well, a couple of RL days into the new day, and I see VV has added unnecessary role leakage and OMGUS to his list of stereotypical dumb n00b behaviours. Guess we're just waiting for him to selfvote now and we'll have the set.

That said, my suspicion of him is fairly strongly allayed by the following:

A) He has ended up on scum on both days
B) He is now pretty much certainly not SK
c) Having caught one ksun busser, that makes anyone else on that wagon significantly townier

He reasons on a very simplistic level, but that's just an irritation rather than scummy.

I'm pretty much uninterested in lynching anyone who was on both dead scum, at least for the moment. There's probably one scum at most there.

inHim criticism is terrible, seems mostly predicated on his playstyle which is heavy on wagons and light on explanations. Neither of these are necessarily scummy in themselves, which also goes some way towards explaining why I hate Cove's contributions so far in general. Scum don't care who's lynched

as long as it's not one of them

, but none of those he cites give the appearance of being in any way reluctant to vote scum. Not seeming to care who gets lynched AT ALL is not scummy.

Incidentally, listing Izzy as being 'on' the VV wagon is disengenuous- she was voting him for only so long as he was the main rival to Richard, and the defining feature of Izzy's play in this game is that she prefers pretty much any other lynch to a Richard lynch.

I wanna

vote: Scot

because I remember him as being fairly strident as town, and he's not at all here. Even allowing for exams, he's undercontributing relative to his meta, plus he was on RGHP over ksun, and VV over zoraster (with a bad reason to be on VV, and no comment on zoraster at all). There's also some kinda half-assed attacking of Scot that Zoraster did early on, then completely forgot about.

[dahill1]

@Cove: Well the mipe wagon was definitely a crappy one and there were some sketchy votes. If zoraster had been on it that would've raised my interest in it more, but since that isn't the case I think there are better things to focus on. Like this:

I wanna

vote: Scot

because I remember him as being fairly strident as town, and he's not at all here. Even allowing for exams, he's undercontributing relative to his meta

Man, I've been saying this all game! (although zoraster flipping scum does make the case against scot significantly stronger) So once again I'm gonna follow along with Fonz and

vote Scot

[RichardGHP]

I would vote scot, but the validity of my vote would be eclipsed with an overwhelming illusion of OMGUS.

[scotmany12]

I wanna

vote: Scot

because I remember him as being fairly strident as town, and he's not at all here. Even allowing for exams, he's undercontributing relative to his meta, plus he was on RGHP over ksun, and VV over zoraster (with a bad reason to be on VV, and no comment on zoraster at all). There's also some kinda half-assed attacking of Scot that Zoraster did early on, then completely forgot about.

Fonz, as far as I recall, we have played in one full game together, and that is tree stump. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Sure, I guess you can say I was strident there, but there are plenty of games where I was town where I was not that aggressive. I disagree that my reason for voting for VV is bad. He consistently played the newbie card day one, was rolefishing, and his exscuse was that he was new, despite him knowing that rolefishing would be bad if he had read those ten games like he said he had. And yes, I didn't comment on the Zoraster wagon at all. Only excuse I have is that I was busy, being swamped with finishing up the semester, packing, dealing with work, problems that were coming up between me and my girlfriend, trying to find a roommate for next year, and trying to find a summer job. So if that makes me scummy, then so be it.

[scotmany12]

Man, I've been saying this all game! (although zoraster flipping scum does make the case against scot significantly stronger) So once again I'm gonna follow along with Fonz and

vote Scot

And this is absolutely bull. You haven't said anything all game except that you thought I felt off. That's it. You never made any case against me hill. And fonz's is lackluster.

[The Fonz]

Well, yes, it does. You're what Yos calls the 'scummy looking lurker.' You've barely done anything, and those few things you've done have benefited scum. And no, I'm not basing this solely on Tree Stump, since i'm pretty sure i've read a few of your other games in the dim and distant past.

VV wasn't 'rolefishing-' he was openly advocating getting several people to claim early on. All the *badtheory* stuff is easily, and in fact best explained by being an extremely raw newbie with next to no concept of how we play on this site. The self-conscious playing of the newbie card, I'd agree, is scummy, (saying 'I did it because I'm a newbie' is not a valid defence, since presumably his thought process wasn't 'Hey, I'm a newbie! I know, I'll do something stupid!') and his vote on ksun looked a lot like a bus. But honing in on the badtheory just seems like you were looking for a quick and easy excuse to vote the counterwagon to zoraster.

[scotmany12]

Well, yes, it does. You're what Yos calls the 'scummy looking lurker.' You've barely done anything, and those few things you've done have benefited scum. And no, I'm not basing this solely on Tree Stump, since i'm pretty sure i've read a few of your other games in the dim and distant past.

VV wasn't 'rolefishing-' he was openly advocating getting several people to claim early on. All the *badtheory* stuff is easily, and in fact best explained by being an extremely raw newbie with next to no concept of how we play on this site. The self-conscious playing of the newbie card, I'd agree, is scummy, (saying 'I did it because I'm a newbie' is not a valid defence, since presumably his thought process wasn't 'Hey, I'm a newbie! I know, I'll do something stupid!') and his vote on ksun looked a lot like a bus. But honing in on the badtheory just seems like you were looking for a quick and easy excuse to vote the counterwagon to zoraster.

And this goes back to where he said he has read games around the site. He said ten games or something like that. So forgive me if I don't believe that all of his bad theory talk is because he's new. Because frankly, what I see is someone who deliberately did something antitown, and when called out on it he played it off as being new. So no, I do not find the "extremely raw newbie" explanation as a reason to excuse this.

[The Fonz]

Scot: I don't think 'lurk, push counterwagon to scum, rinse, repeat' is a lacklustre case at all. As for vava, if he were aware that such behaviour was considered antitown on this site, he'd be aware that such behaviour was, well, considered antitown on this site, and therefore likely not to work and to draw attention to himself. So clearly, he's either lying about his experience, which is a stupid move if you're PLANNING to hide behind the newbie card, or he's not really understood what he's read, or the othersitemeta is so ingrained in him that it doesn't matter.

[scotmany12]

Calling my vote on VaVa as me pushing a counterwagon to Zoraster, when Zoraster only had two votes on him, and there was no way to know if it had any momentum and would continue to grow, is just wrong.

Your case is lackluster, and not something I would expect someone of your caliber to push on day three. For one, I hardly consider my activity during day one to be equivalent to that of a lurker. Yes there was a time where I didn't say much, which was due to school once again. And then during day 2, my low activity was due to personal life and school. And two, I'm not the only one who stayed off of the scum wagons. QuagJohnson, Yos, Mipe, PaltryCover have all stayed off of the scum wagons. So yes, you're case is lackluster.

[The Fonz]

Hang on, you're right- I had you down as jumping on Vasude at the end of yesterday, whereas you actually just sat on Richard all day. No, wait, the mod's votecounts are wrong.... AAAAAARGH! How the heck did the mod manage to miss Scot's vote when he got the Zoraster one IN THE VERY NEXT POST?

Right. You may have voted vava at a point when Zoraster had 'only' two votes on him, but NO-ONE other than VaVa and zoraster had votes, apart from the dying Richard and Anon wagons. It seems utterly obvious to me at that point that it was likely to be VaVa or Zoraster, and I'm not sure how any reasonable person could come to any other conclusion. In any case, you just threw your vote on the biggest wagon with deadline approaching. At best, it's not protown.

In any case, given that you wouldn't be able to post again till after deadline, voting the biggest non-dying (due to PR claim), non-scum wagon is EXACTLY what I'd expect a buddy to do there. I know I'm town, Zoraster is the dead scum in question, Shanba is dead town... so if any of Zoraster's buddies came to his aid, it has to be you. And it seems pretty likely to me that one of them would, given how tough it would be to come back from 2 dead scum in the first two days.

If you expect a 'better' case from the 'calibre' of me, who do you expect me to make it ON? I don't think mipe is scum because of the crapwagon on him. I don't think Paltry was scum because he was the one player on said wagon to really believe in it. I'm not sure on Yos, but my gut leans town simply from the effort he's putting in. Quag I've already stated, the thing about betting money is not something i've seen scum do, but i've definitely seen scum do it.

There is NOTHING scummy about Quag/Cove that doesn't also apply to you. So you've got all the negatives, but no mitigating factors. In addition, there's the whole Zoraster having you as no1 suspect on day one and then completely forgetting about you D2 thing. Sure, you can talk about schoolwork, but so did Zoraster.

[The Fonz]

*Definitely seen TOWN do it.

[scotmany12]

Sure, as the deadline was nearing closer, Zoraster or VaVa were the only options really. At the time of my vote, I disagree. And I was the second vote on VaVa behind you. There were plenty of other people who had only one vote on them (Furc, Yos, Quag, inHim, Paltry, Shanba). All of them had votes on them! All of them had one vote along with VaVa. So you're just dead wrong. I didn't vote for the biggest wagon at this point, cause there was no leading wagon, except for Zoraster, Richard (untill I voted for VaVa), and Anon who all had 2 votes!

And Zoraster even went back down to one vote five posts after my vote. At that point, who was going to be lynched was not obvious at all. I voted for who I thought was the scummiest. I'd argue the Zoraster wagon did not gain momentum until inhim voted for him.

[dahill1]

Man, I've been saying this all game! (although zoraster flipping scum does make the case against scot significantly stronger) So once again I'm gonna follow along with Fonz and

vote Scot

And this is absolutely bull. You haven't said anything all game except that you thought I felt off. That's it. You never made any case against me hill. And fonz's is lackluster.

No, I've mentioned how you're meta was significantly straying from what I've you as town in the past. Fonz nailed it with "you're not as strident". Normally I don't use meta much, but to me there is an obvious change from your previous play. Agreed that this case is not as strong as normal, but that seems to be a common trait for ALL the cases I've seen this game. What it boils down to (for me) is that: it makes the most sense based on the revealed scum and who I am pretty sure are town, you have been another one of those somewhat lurking/going-with-the-flow players this game (and we all know how the others turned out), HUGE and i mean HUGE gut feeling that I can't shake.

[Yosarian2]

Ok.

1. Va seems to be agreeing to Richard's claimed results. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Va never claimed or hinted at his role before today, right? There's really no way Richard could have know that, unless he really is a tracker. Granted, he could be a scum tracker, or he could be taking a gamble, or he could even be scum with Va. All in all, though, I think the odds of Richard being scum just went down a bit.

2. I don't think we lynch Va today, either. Personally, I always thought his day 1 vote looked town; it came at a pretty key time in pushing the scum wagon. Also, the fact he apparently didn't go anywhere is a mark in his favor for a number of reasons, including the fact that both of the mafia we lynched so far had some kind of night actions.

[Cove]

Alright, I just finished looking into Vas in depth myself, and he really did have a chance to make a difference with the ksun lynch. There is an interesting tie in there to Richard (he refused to vote him) but I get the feeling Richard is probably actually a tracker so I'm back to the drawing board.

It should be noted though, Fonz, that Vas was not on both scum wagons. He was on Shanba at the end of Day 2. Just going to point that out in case it becomes important later. For now:

unvote Vas

One thing that I am puzzled about is how could ksun be the only scum on the RVS Izzy wagon? This seemed like something scum would have no trouble jumping on for fun with little chance of repurcussions (it was RVS after all). Both dahill1 and inHim were on both scum wagons, which leaves TSQ. I thought TSQ's play was fairly solid on Day 1, but I'm going to go back and reread in ISO tomorrow.

This Fonz/scot battle is pretty interesting as well. I'll also go back and look at scot's meta tomorrow and compare.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Sigh. DeathNote needs to show up and deal with the problem with this game.

[The Fonz]

Meh. Perform all the verbal gymastics you want scot, you still lurked and took the action most beneficial to scum at basically every juncture. All your focussing in on the minutiae and excuse-making isn't going to make you suddenly have done anything protown in this game. And you have done literally nothing protown all game, with the possible exception of opposing the mipewagon, but even then, you didn't really make any effort to stop it or corral people into counterwagoning one of the wagoners. So that even looks like a 'good cop' scum move.

Your assessment of the case on you as poor doesn't seem to be based on anything other than it being on you. I've invited you to come up with a better one. Be my guest. If I'm wrong on you, that means either I'm wrong about being on the scumwagons being a towntell, or i'm wrong about my reasons for thinking the others offwagon are more likely town than you, or i've completely forgotten someone. Your call.

[inHimshallibe]

God bless The Fonz.









And dahill.

unvote
vote: scot

[dahill1]

Stop buddying!

it's working

[Anon]

I like where this is going.

/buddying wagon

Vote: scotmany.

Also one of Paltry/inhim/vasudeva/dahill is scum.

[Cove]

I'm not sure I'm so used to playing games where it's acceptable to bandwagon without explanation like what inHim does, it just doesn't sit right. I guess I can't argue with his help in downing two scum, though.

Checked into TSQ, he seemed pretty solid and Mr. Chaos was early on zoraster, so I am starting to think there weren't actually any scum outside of ksun on the Izzy RVS wagon.

This narrows down the possible suspect pool to:

2. iamausername
4. doc_johnson
9. scotmany12
12. mipe
16. The Fonz
17. Yosarian2

I know that there has been a lot of talk about mipe, and the mipe wagon. Going to bet he's not scum for now. iamausername and Fonz were on the ksun wagon, plus The Fonz seems to know what he's talking about, so that leaves:

4. doc_johnson
9. scotmany12
17. Yosarian2

I get the feeling this is a pretty good short list.

Vote scotmany12

That's L-3 right?