Pledge of Allegiance (Game Over! Page 76)

[Gammagooey]

Zorblag- The Phate shenanigans is a big part of it, but more than that I just get the feeling that you're hiding behind your votes instead of trying to put them on scum, and you getting off the Phate wagon while still looking suspicious of him was the first instance of that which couldn't be attributed to RVS/meta stuffs. Your fishy vote looks the same way, it's easy to justify the vote on a non-town instead of searching around and voting who you think is most likely to be mafia.

As for Reverb, Yeah I could be biased because of it, but pointing that out isn't making my opinion change of you.

[StrangerCoug]

##MFoS: SC

How intriguing that you prefer an

SK

lynch to a scum lynch.

The earlier the serial killer dies, the less we have to worry about kingmaker, prisoner's dilemma, or any similar scenario. Yes, the Mafia should still be getting priority. However, the serial killer cannot be left in the game indefinitely.

@StrangerCoug, out of curiosity, what was it about the posts that DrippingGoofball linked that convinced you that I'm a hostile other and that I'm a better lynch than, say Nicodemus today? It seems that you agree with her that I'm not mafia. Was it the part where she accused me of ignoring her analysis just after I'd made a post saying I'd be giving a defense shortly? Was it the part where she tried to use my not denying that I'm a Serial Killer as a point against me right after I'd explained why it was I picked town for my alignment? Is it that you agree with her that I've been coasting and fake scum hunting all game?

The last two pretty much did it. (I'm still not familiar with the Nicodemus case either, by the way. I simply don't do as well in larges, but I apparently don't let that get in the way of my best efforts )

[Plum]

But but my gut is hating on Troll so much harder :O He IS a better lynch than fishy though.

TROLL AND NICO CAN BOTH DIE!
WIN WIN WIN!

EXCELLENT. I'M SO UP FOR THIS.

FARSIDE, are you explicitly claiming non-Other? Would you do so at if you'd be lynched if we found out you lied? You laying your life on the line claiming that you're definitely NOT OTHER?

[Zorblag]

@Fishythefish, I guess you know how many abilities of various sorts your faction has and can use that to gague how likely another would be to have a roleblock; lacking that information I'm inclined to think that if you're judicial and don't have that sort of ability 1 in 3 is probably high. If you're executive and lack that sort of ability I could see it going to judicial as flavor and having it be more of a concern.

My last sentence was saying I think you might have already performed your track and still have a transmit to perform. I can think of a reason you might want to lie about that but my guessing here isn't all that helpful. Overall I know that you were willing to change your story about abilities as we went to match the facts that were brought up so I don't know that you've given me a great reason to think that you wouldn't have lied about it. I'm trying to work with the information you have given to figure out what's going on. You listed one ability at the start and having that split to a two night deal would take care of why you were doing some sort of targeting last night and potentially why you didn't want to say what it was as it would be changing what you've said you can do rather than just adding things to it.

I don't really like that you're continuing to find things that you're willing to share about your role that you didn't want to previously but I'm a bit predisposed not to trust you fully at this point anyhow so that's not too shocking.

@Gammagooey, I'm actually more interesting in figuring out exactly what it is that you (and others) are not liking now rather than trying to get you to change your mind. I'm pretty happy with what I did regarding my vote for Phate and then popsofctown. Using it to add pressure to a wagon on Phate before he'd done anything that I found useful and then switching to popsofctown after that pressure was starting to dissipate (granted, before I thought it should have) for what I found scummy from him is something that I'd be willing to do at the start of most days. I'm also pretty satisfied with how I'm working with Fishythefish thus far today, there's still information to be had from him via conversation or a lynch (or both.) If you don't like those it it won't offend me overly, disagreeing with me certainly isn't that uncommon. I do like your answer about Mafia Reverberation. It's honest in a way it doesn't need to be.

@StrangerCoug, actually, you probably should want to kill a serial killer first; taking them out gets rid of their night kill. Lynching a member of the mafia usually won't do that and it leaves more connections to find for later if you get them second.

So if it's my coasting and fake scum hunting that I've been doing all game that has you convinced that I am a serial killer (or some sort of hostile other at least) I wonder if you could explain what you mean by coasting and why you think I've been doing it more than others. I'd also like to see a couple of what you think are my most egregious instances of fake scum hunting. It's a bit surprising that you're voting for me before you're familiar with the case on Nicodemus given that you made sure to ask about mine before deciding but I assume given your answer that you did take the time to look over at least my play in isolation before making your decision.

@Plum, you said earlier that you could dissect up a case on me. I wonder if you'd be willing to do that still? Right now I think that you're voting for me because DrippingGoofball says she's got a strong meta read and because you didn't like how I treated Chronopie after he claimed explicitly that he had a non-town result on Fishythefish. As with Gammagooey I disagree that what you seem to not like should come across as scummy but I can live with disagreeing. You're clearly not alone in that take on my actions in any case. Mostly I just want to see fully why you think that I'm a great candidate for a lynch today for you.

@everyone, both farside22 and charter are playing the way that I'd expect them to as town in terms of their reaction to Fishythefish's claim. I expect them to dig in on that sort of idea and hold onto it with vigor. I've been thinking about DrippingGoofball and at this point I'm pretty sure that she shouldn't be a member of any faction with a night kill. She does know from some experience that I'm not a particularly easy lynch to get to happen (I've been lynched 3 times total; two of my first games here and once when I drove my own wagon due to a special game mechanic) and I think that she'd be more likely just to get rid of me by night killing me if she thought that I was going to be thorn in her side for some reason.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Oh, and just because I expect those who think that DrippingGoofball is obv-town at this point not to like the last bit of that last post of mine I do think that she could pretty easily be town and have a strong hunch she's going with about me or be using one of a couple other tactics I can think of that would result in this course of action. I'm simply looking at what alignments can probably be ruled out from her play.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Fishythefish]

@Zorblag: I'm not really finding new things I won't tell you. I've said throughout I'm not going to tell you anything about abilities other than track, and quite clearly I can't explain why an ability is inappropriate for targetting Gamma with without telling you what it is. I've also barely changed my story - just gone from lying by omission to admitting that omission.

On roleblock likelihood; my faction has at least two abilities (track + what I did last night). So a working assumption is that the other factions between them have at least four. Out of four abilities, how often is one of them a roleblock? IMO, often enough that risking a substantial proportion of the game on there being no roleblock there would be foolhardy.

[StrangerCoug]

So if it's my coasting and fake scum hunting that I've been doing all game that has you convinced that I am a serial killer (or some sort of hostile other at least) I wonder if you could explain what you mean by coasting and why you think I've been doing it more than others. I'd also like to see a couple of what you think are my most egregious instances of fake scum hunting. It's a bit surprising that you're voting for me before you're familiar with the case on Nicodemus given that you made sure to ask about mine before deciding but I assume given your answer that you did take the time to look over at least my play in isolation before making your decision.

For the most part I'm piggybacking off DrippingGoofball, but your ISO does look like you're not scumhunting on any sort of consistent basis, hence coasting. Some posts I would like you to explain are:

@Shotty to the Body, an easy way off that part of my fine lynch list is simply to post when you get the chance. If finals have kept you busy then you'll be able to make it up after their over.

@popsofctown, you know it's funny. Back when I was deciding what alignment to pick I thought that I might say I used exactly that same method (only with higher non-town numbers) to pick my alignment if I decided to go for scum or other. I never actually considered using the method though. You make it tempting to leave my vote but right now I'm slightly more interested in who will follow the lead to Phate (who's also a fine lynch.)

Unvote
Vote: Phate

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

While I'm waiting,

##Unvote
##Vote: popsofctown

If people are going to fall out of love with a Phate lynch and a wagon is starting on popsofctown I'm pretty happy moving back there. He'd be a fine target for a vig or whatnot but if people want to lynch him instead I'll support that as well.

This admittedly isn't that bad since you give a good explanation, but it would help me if I could figure what you were thinking in terms of FishytheFish's alignment:

I had been thinking that if Fishythefish had been able to tell if the person he transmitted to was town (via points or what-not) then he might have been worth keeping around for an extra day to verify popsofctown's alignment (or someone else) and then killing tomorrow. Apparently he's not useful for that though. Also, apparently he's leaving out multiple details if his current claim is true. I'm not sure how many actions I expect him to have but if he had one for last night and thinks that he can accomplish more today before getting lynched it's certainly more than I would have guessed.

I wouldn't be hugely shocked if he was telling some of the truth with his claim but sadly, given how xvart flipped, it seems unlikely that we'll know much until after the game is over about what can do. Perhaps I'm wrong and there's something about how xvart was killed that's kept that information on the lesser side but I don't see how talked to death would be likely to make that the case.

If people want to give him time I doubt there's much chance that it'll do that much harm but I don't think that he's sharing enough to be worth keeping around for the time he's asking for.

##Vote: Fishythefish

Anything else that I've got to say about the game should keep just fine till tomorrow.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[farside22]

But but my gut is hating on Troll so much harder :O He IS a better lynch than fishy though.

TROLL AND NICO CAN BOTH DIE!
WIN WIN WIN!

EXCELLENT. I'M SO UP FOR THIS.

FARSIDE, are you explicitly claiming non-Other? Would you do so at if you'd be lynched if we found out you lied? You laying your life on the line claiming that you're definitely NOT OTHER?

I never claimed non-other. I claimed town tracker. Get your facts straight

[farside22]

We can begin by lynching Troll.

Then we can vig Nico.

It's very simple, kids.

Jack, StrangerCoug, imaginality, pops, d3x, Phate, Nico >>> unproductive voters.

GET ON WITH THE BIZNIS

Meh... Phate is prob town, SC too. That list needs more RC.

@farside - I understand what you are saying. Do you at least get where I am coming from with my arguements?

Not really. I find it hard to believe a person who with hold information to be anything that helps the town.
I find it hard to believe a person that got a not town results from a claimed cop to be town or non-other working for the town.
I find it hard to believe that I should blindly trust someone that lied the first time when they say I swear I'm working with the town. And everyone just says Oh I believe it. Dee, dee, dee.

[Fishythefish]

Access note

I probably won't be posting so much over the next few weeks; shouldn't be awful though.

@farside etc:
I think I've adequately explained my role, and my motivation for everything I've done. I don't think there's anything unbelievable about it. I think statements like "I find it hard to believe a person who withholds information to be anything that helps the town" are rather silly. From what I can see, all you are doing is repeatedly saying that I don't fit into your picture of what town does, and therefore am not town. But I'm not claiming town, and you really have to address my actual claim here. Do you disbelieve my role because you think it couldn't exist? Or because, if it did exist, I wouldn't have played it like I have?

Really, all the points against me are nothing more than "he's not town, lynch him". Yes, I am obviously not town. Of course I

could

have a similar role to the one I've claimed, and be working against the town. But really, that's no different from saying that anyone could be scum.

The fact that I have lied to you really isn't relevant. Because that fits perfectly with my role! Of course you shouldn't "blindly trust" me. Any more than "because I'm town" is a reason not to vote for someone. What you should do, as you do for anyone else, is look at my actions, look at my votes, and decide whether you believe me about various things, and whether it's likely that my interests are different enough from yours to warrant a lynch. As far as I can tell, you've made absolutely no attempt to do that. If you think lieing to the town is a good indicator that I'm going to hurt the town, please explain that - because it needs justification, given my roleclaim.

[Ellibereth]

DGB, can we pleeeeeeease kill hardcore-lurker Nico today and have Troll be offed tonight or tomorrow.

[farside22]

I don't know what to believe from you fishy. I could see you as scum with a really good fake claim.
You could be an other who's win condition has nothing to do with a town win.
I don't know and frankly you haven't given me a reason to believe you when what you did in the beginning is anti-town.
Your not part of the town. There is no reason to trust, believe or want to see you continue in this game in my view.

[DrippingGoofball]

I'm not the vig

[Ellibereth]

ALL THE PEOPLE NOT ON TROLL OR NICO MOVE YOUR VOTE TO ONE OF THEM.
Then we get them to both claim etc. etc.

[Zorblag]

@Fishythefish, I actually said that I don't like that you're finding more things that you are willing to share, not things that you're not willing to share. The new information that all of your abilities contribute to points based on who you target is specifically what I had in mind. I'd sort of expect that if one of the other two factions had a roleblock the same thing would apply to them. Unless they gained or lost points for targeting others with it it'd actually be an advantage to the third faction if they were to target you with it. Doing so would stop either of your two factions from getting points that night but leave a competitor without that restriction. There's also some question as to how many times it could be used but you seem to think that keeping that information from us is useful for some reason.

@StrangerCoug, by not scumhunting on a consistent basis (for coasting) do you mean that you think that I'm not posting enough? Or that most of my posts don't look like scum hunting to you? If either of those are what you're trying to say I'll again invite you to compare what I've been doing here to any of d3x, Nicodeums, popsofctown or Shotty to the Body (and Phate really, though with him replacing out I'm more comfortable than I used to be.) It would probably have made sense for you to give as your original answer that you were piggybacking off DrippingGoofball but so be it. The posts that you're asking about are pretty much the same things that Gammagooey is taking issue with so to a large degree you can take a look at my responses to him to see why I made them but I'll give a quick rundown of what happened.

At the start of the game I was voting for those who hadn't posted yet to vote for as I typically do. popsofctown was the last player to post and my vote was on when he did (to say that he'd give us content soon.) While I was waiting for that I took a look over what Phate had posted (as well as some others) and decided that his apparent uncertainty about what DrippingGoofball was clearly doing was potentially worth pursuing. I asked a few questions to see if people would want to start a wagon on him and they did. popsofctown then did post content which was scummy. I went along with the Phate vote for added pressure because I did still want more from him but if there hadn't been a wagon building on him at the time I would have stayed with popsofctown. Phate then made a couple posts that I didn't think should have alleviated the pressure that was on him as much as it did but his wagon started to fade anyhow. I pointed out that I didn't think there was reason for others to unvote yet but, since the pressure wasn't building any more I switched my vote back to popsofctown as the scummier player.

My take on Fishythefish's alignment at the time was that he was fairly likely to be non-hostile other like he was claiming but that it was clear that he wasn't town and that he wasn't fully sharing his information and at the time he was saying that he had further things he could do that day (which, again, he wasn't interested in sharing the nature of.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[farside22]

ALL THE PEOPLE NOT ON TROLL OR NICO MOVE YOUR VOTE TO ONE OF THEM.
Then we get them to both claim etc. etc.

Can you give me the short version of why you believe they are scum?
Nico in a current game going on I could see not picking scum because he really does play it poorly.

[Zorblag]

@Ellibereth, we shouldn't be having more people claim than we're going to be lynching claim today. Piecemeal claiming just gives scum more information for using their night actions.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[DrippingGoofball]

Zorblag, you are failing to tunnel on some players the way you do when you are town.

[Ellibereth]

ALL THE PEOPLE NOT ON TROLL OR NICO MOVE YOUR VOTE TO ONE OF THEM.
Then we get them to both claim etc. etc.

Can you give me the short version of why you believe they are scum?
Nico in a current game going on I could see not picking scum because he really does play it poorly.

I trust DGB on troll.
Nico via the Xvart wagon, me knowing he lurks as scum, the rolefishing stuff earlier, and his whole Iso just feels wierd.

@Ellibereth, we shouldn't be having more people claim than we're going to be lynching claim today. Piecemeal claiming just gives scum more information for using their night actions.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Scum being forced to give fakeclaims is good. And you'd rather claim than die, no?

[Fishythefish]

I don't know what to believe from you fishy. I could see you as scum with a really good fake claim.
You could be an other who's win condition has nothing to do with a town win.
I don't know and frankly you haven't given me a reason to believe you when what you did in the beginning is anti-town.
Your not part of the town. There is no reason to trust, believe or want to see you continue in this game in my view.

The thing is, if you think my claim might be mostly true (ie. the points system is real), the last sentence isn't good enough. You might want me gone, but you don't have enough lynches to kill off a large number of non-hostile others.

If you believe my claim, I'm a terrible lynch. If you don't, I'm a good lynch. Exactly the same situation as a claimed town power role. The difference - that even if I'm telling the truth I'm not town - isn't actually important at all. In both cases, what matters is how well my claim fits the facts and my play. The argument "you're not town, so we can't trust you" is a silly one - because you can't trust anyone before you know their alignment. My alignment - again if you believe me about the points system - is effectively unknown. There is no reason to think I'm mostly protown, or that I'm not. The situation is really very similar to any other claim.

[DrippingGoofball]

I have to say this about rolefishing as a scumtell. I don't think I have ever observed a buddy rolefishing. I think that's a very weak scumtell, if it's even a scumtell.

[Ellibereth]

I have to say this about rolefishing as a scumtell. I don't think I have ever observed a buddy rolefishing. I think that's a very weak scumtell, if it's even a scumtell.

Remember me in PYP?
Regardless, there was more non-town than fishy on this:

xvart ( 8 ) Ellibereth LLamaFluff ojanen Nicodemus fishythefish charter UncertainKitten VP Baltar

[Chronopie]

##Unvote

##Vote: Troll

I'm not 100% sure that Troll is SK.

He looks as though He's been giving Fishy answers to use for when/if Fishy decides to elaborate on his actions.

I'm wondering if you don't have one shot weak track that you don't learn anything about and then a one shot transmit to be used later to try to get that to someone else.

although Fishy then refuted this, it still doesn't sit right with my gut.

[farside22]

I don't know what to believe from you fishy. I could see you as scum with a really good fake claim.
You could be an other who's win condition has nothing to do with a town win.
I don't know and frankly you haven't given me a reason to believe you when what you did in the beginning is anti-town.
Your not part of the town. There is no reason to trust, believe or want to see you continue in this game in my view.

The thing is, if you think my claim might be mostly true (ie. the points system is real), the last sentence isn't good enough. You might want me gone, but you don't have enough lynches to kill off a large number of non-hostile others.

If you believe my claim, I'm a terrible lynch. If you don't, I'm a good lynch. Exactly the same situation as a claimed town power role. The difference - that even if I'm telling the truth I'm not town - isn't actually important at all. In both cases, what matters is how well my claim fits the facts and my play. The argument "you're not town, so we can't trust you" is a silly one - because you can't trust anyone before you know their alignment. My alignment - again if you believe me about the points system - is effectively unknown. There is no reason to think I'm mostly protown, or that I'm not. The situation is really very similar to any other claim.

I'm going with facts. That's what your missing.
I'm not going to repeat those facts over and over again. But all the facts = anti-town. I don't know if your scum or other but I know your actions and the facts I have tell me your scum.

[Fishythefish]

No! The facts do not tell you I'm scum. They only tell you I acted anti-town. Give me a fact that doesn't fit with a mostly town points system.

You seem very unwilling to discuss my actual claim. I think that's because there's absolutely no reason to disbelieve it.

You are stating and restating facts which show very nicely just how not-town I am, but have no bearing on whether I am scum or pro-townish other.