Newbie 955 - Game over

[Adaham]

Valkyrie (1) sailorpallas
MrSandman (3) Hoopla, RayFrost, kingcod
sailorpallas (2) LobsterCatapult, AdumbroDeus
AdumbroDeus (1) Adaham
(No vote) Valkyrie, MrSandman
9 alive; 5 votes lynch.

AdumbroDeus:

We both seemed to have arrived to the conclusion that Sailor's logic is poor, and that is a scumtell. One other person is not a safe wagon, and "weak targets" seems to translate to you as "people with scumtells".

LobsterCatapult

i also, responding to you, isnt it possible or probable for SP to be both a newb and a scum with those posts? i mean, i could see a newb mafia saying both things, i mean, his posts obviously dont seem as experienced as yours or hooplas or even ray frosts...but that doesnt mean he is only newb, that being said, im not trying to imply that you think he coudln't be scum, you just didnt seem to indicate that he could be both.

Here´s what I said about it:

Of all people playing, I see SailorPallas as the one that has the most "Newbie"-air around himself. He comes in clanging clumsily and behaves a bit naive in general. Please don´t take this insulting, but I´ve seen plenty of really new players come in like that as innocents. Before they catch the drift of the game (or sometimes it´s just their style), they are usually lynched.

Noob-Scum makes other mistakes, or so my gut says.

Maybe I should have been more clear on that last point. The reason he´s jumped upon (voting for Valkyrie for the most hyproctical reasons) is actually so blatant that I´m slightly unwilling to accept it as a real scumtell, that´s what I mean with "too easy". Considering this is a Newbie-game, I´m more concerned of those that have obviously more experience and exploit the mistakes of the Newbs for their own purposes.

On the other hand there is no real reason to believe in SP´s innocence either, especially as he´s gone fairly quiet again. Considering he´s part of the issue, it´d be nice to hear more and maybe something more substantial. As nice as it is that Valkyrie sees something in my points, a bit more activity would be appreciated as well.

Nice one for AdumbroDeus and kingcod:

@AdumbroDeus - sorry I don't understand this - can you rephrase?

"Regardless, even if Sailor is just a weak player at the end of the day, weak players are bad for town, especially in lylo, so scum is obviously top priority, but weak players are there too, failing a good choice for clearly scum. Of course inactives have priority over simply weak players cause the town cannot win with them."

Are you suggesting lynching weak townies as a strategy to thin out the choices?

If I was kingcod and innocent, I´d be a bit more harsh in my critique of this basically outrageous statement of AD. to the packy to pace it down?

It was interesting to see how AD and Lobster replied in different manners. While AdumbroDeus appears short and confident, Lobster seems a lot more defensive, as if a nerve was hit. Anyone else seeing that? I´m not quite sure whether to ascribe that to different personalities, experience, or roles.

If I had to choose between AD and Lobster, I´d say that AD is probably more dangerous, but Lobster seems like he´s playing the newbie card a bit too much for my taste. He knows very well how to play this game and since most of us are new to this forum, he shouldn´t try to emphasize this as much as he does. Granted, this is very much gut-based, but since I respect my gut, I´m sharing these thoughts.

No vote change at this moment, but a

FoS: LobsterCatapult

Looking forward to some fresh nsights from Hoopla and more than only questions from RayFrost

[Valkyrie]

The Mafiascum wiki is a great place to learn the abbreviations and terms.

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

Thanks.


I think Adaham's sentiments make me most suspicious of AdumbroDeus, though I haven't gotten enough suspicion about anyone in particular to commit to a vote just yet.

Do you have any 'sentiments' of your own to share?

I'm still busy reading up the posts. I'd be more active, but is it only me or do pages sometimes take like ten or twenty minutes to load? Sometimes it's super slow.

[Adaham]

If I click on "quote" or "post reply", I get transferred back to the forum-lounge, but speed is okay here. Time to upgrade your 56K connection

Joke aside, especially when it takes so long for you, rather post once big instead of spreading the same one-liner over a couple of pages. No pun intended, just a serious suggestion, eh?

[AdumbroDeus]

@AdumbroDeus - sorry I don't understand this - can you rephrase?

"Regardless, even if Sailor is just a weak player at the end of the day, weak players are bad for town, especially in lylo, so scum is obviously top priority, but weak players are there too, failing a good choice for clearly scum. Of course inactives have priority over simply weak players cause the town cannot win with them."

Are you suggesting lynching weak townies as a strategy to thin out the choices?

I'm suggesting that if we don't have a clear scum choice, inactive/weak players (in that order) should be the obvious choice (since we gotta lynch in order to at least hit odds), for two reasons.


1. It's easy for scum to pretend to play weak, especially with new players since we have no meta on them. That means weak play is a scumtell in and of itself. This applies to being both weak and inactive. Being strategically inactive is an even bigger scumtell.


2. Strong players are more valuable to have in town in general, even if they flip scum, you're still leaving the majority of strong players in town, and this means it's more likely to have a successful lylo. This goes double for inactives, cause wasted slots or barely active players mean literally can't win lylo at worst, at best it's impossible to get a read on them.


So, my view on town lynch priorities is as follows:

1. Scum
2. Inactives
3. Weak players


K?

[AdumbroDeus]

If I was kingcod and innocent, I´d be a bit more harsh in my critique of this basically outrageous statement of AD. to the packy to pace it down?

It was interesting to see how AD and Lobster replied in different manners. While AdumbroDeus appears short and confident, Lobster seems a lot more defensive, as if a nerve was hit. Anyone else seeing that? I´m not quite sure whether to ascribe that to different personalities, experience, or roles.

If I had to choose between AD and Lobster, I´d say that AD is probably more dangerous, but Lobster seems like he´s playing the newbie card a bit too much for my taste. He knows very well how to play this game and since most of us are new to this forum, he shouldn´t try to emphasize this as much as he does. Granted, this is very much gut-based, but since I respect my gut, I´m sharing these thoughts.

No vote change at this moment, but a

FoS: LobsterCatapult

Looking forward to some fresh nsights from Hoopla and more than only questions from RayFrost

Oh, I don't know about Lobster, but I can tell you why I have this viewpoint on lynch priorities.

I have experience in other forums and IRL games, and I've been in more then one game where:

1. Incactives meant no lynch in lylo or managed to destroy town by doing essentially what is in 2.

2. Extremely weak players managed to cloak scum/scum hid by playing inexperienced.


As such I take an extremely dim view on both, obviously scum is first priority always, but failing that, lynching players that are anti-town in hopes that they'll flip scum is the best choice.

[Hoopla]

1. It's easy for scum to pretend to play weak, especially with new players since we have no meta on them. That means weak play is a scumtell in and of itself. This applies to being both weak and inactive. Being strategically inactive is an even bigger scumtell.

2. Strong players are more valuable to have in town in general, even if they flip scum, you're still leaving the majority of strong players in town, and this means it's more likely to have a successful lylo. This goes double for inactives, cause wasted slots or barely active players mean literally can't win lylo at worst, at best it's impossible to get a read on them.

It's easy for scum to pretend to play weak? You're just sewing seeds of paranoia to incriminate weaker players. I don't remember seeing anyone deliberately playing weak just to try and avoid suspicion. A player being weak or strong is generally proportionate to the value they have for either side.

Weaker players can often be quite useful to the town, if they're easy to read. A town consensus on them forces scum's hand to NK them, knowing it's unlikely they can attain a mislynch there. You say strong players are valuable to the town, even if they flip scum - can you explain this? The town generally only has 3 mislynches, so a significant chunk of players won't be lynched this game. Guess who is likeliest to avoid being lynched?

Strong players need to come under just as much, if not more scrutiny than weaker players, because if they are scum, they're not going to be NK'ed and are difficult to be lynch.

1. Scum
2. Inactives
3. Weak players

These three qualities aren't mutually exclusive, they never really are. If we knew who was scum, we wouldn't need to worry about the rest. The other two are identifiable, and often overlap. I don't know what is to be gained by filtering players into unnecessary groups.

[Hoopla]

At the moment I have town reads on LobsterCatapault, RayFrost and Valkyrie.

I wouldn't be surprised if the scum is lurking in this group of players; AdumbroDeus, Sandman, Adaham, kingcod, sailorpallas.

[Adaham]

I get your point and I´ve been in plenty of games suffering from inactivity (am actually currently in one on another forum with 6 inactives and some weak ones as well), so I know the suffering.

But while I agree about the potential problems such players can give us in a lynch or lose (as well about the shadow they offer to scum, I´ve stated that earlier in a post), I still think that we shouldn´t promote the idea of eradicating them (as you are kind of doing, by repeatedly emphasizing it), but much rather try to stimulate them differently to get more out of them.

I´ve been in my share of games, too (all online), so I´ve seen the scenario you described. But I´ve also seen often a scenario in which innocent weak players get bashed at their first entrance for their obvious scumtells (mostly voting stupid, probably assuming we´re still joking, or just trying how it works) and tend to shut up once pressure is rising. As they are inexperienced, it is very easy for an experienced player to pressure them into more mistakes and helpless defense.

I am by now very keen to hear back from SP, as he´s a big part of the reason we´re having this discussion. As I said, he´s far from being off my list, but I´d rather let him take his first steps into this on his own, before telling him from post 1 that he´s scum. I know that scumhunting includes attacking everyone to get reactions, but as an experienced player you should also know how easily newbs (whether good or bad) can be scared by 2 or 3 aggressive players going for them right off the bat. In the end they give up and shut up completely. In a way, you are thus contributing to the creation of weak players or inactives. You can get the information in more subtle ways while stimulating them at the same time to post more. You can collect your info and make a good case later. That would give you more time to second guess a couple of vocal players, which in the endgame is the much more crucial decision to make.

That´s why I distrust your intentions.

If I have some time, I´ll start looking into the sandman issue. He´s the vote leader and I should read back to see why exactly that is the case. Rayfrost and Hoopla are not very talkative of late, so the whole thing lies still a bit in the shadows for me.

[Adaham]

that post above was to AD, I´ll read Hoopla now.

[Adaham]

@ Hoopla:

Good reply to AD.

At the moment I have town reads on LobsterCatapault, RayFrost and Valkyrie.

I wouldn't be surprised if the scum is lurking in this group of players; AdumbroDeus, Sandman, Adaham, kingcod, sailorpallas.

Even though I don´t agree with you about Lobster (and myself), the rest I agree with, even though your formula "wouldn´t be surprised if" is a nice ornament for "everybody else is suspicious".

What exactly do you think of kingcod at the moment?

[LobsterCatapult]

Maybe I should have been more clear on that last point. The reason he´s jumped upon (voting for Valkyrie for the most hyproctical reasons) is actually so blatant that I´m slightly unwilling to accept it as a real scumtell, that´s what I mean with "too easy". Considering this is a Newbie-game, I´m more concerned of those that have obviously more experience and exploit the mistakes of the Newbs for their own purposes.

On the other hand there is no real reason to believe in SP´s innocence either, especially as he´s gone fairly quiet again. Considering he´s part of the issue, it´d be nice to hear more and maybe something more substantial. As nice as it is that Valkyrie sees something in my points, a bit more activity would be appreciated as well.

Nice one for AdumbroDeus and kingcod:

Are you suggesting lynching weak townies as a strategy to thin out the choices?

If I was kingcod and innocent, I´d be a bit more harsh in my critique of this basically outrageous statement of AD. to the packy to pace it down?

It was interesting to see how AD and Lobster replied in different manners. While AdumbroDeus appears short and confident, Lobster seems a lot more defensive, as if a nerve was hit. Anyone else seeing that? I´m not quite sure whether to ascribe that to different personalities, experience, or roles.

If I had to choose between AD and Lobster, I´d say that AD is probably more dangerous, but Lobster seems like he´s playing the newbie card a bit too much for my taste. He knows very well how to play this game and since most of us are new to this forum, he shouldn´t try to emphasize this as much as he does. Granted, this is very much gut-based, but since I respect my gut, I´m sharing these thoughts.

No vote change at this moment, but a

FoS: LobsterCatapult

Looking forward to some fresh nsights from Hoopla and more than only questions from RayFrost [/quote]

i have a hard time explaining myself in a short and concise way, and i can get rather defensive, those are things im trying to work on, but i know that many people who play this game are better than me at articulating their ideas and not getting so defensive when i feel under a little bit of pressure.

ive read some mafia games, and replaced an inactive in late game, but this is the first ive started, so im not a total newb, but im new to the whole starting a mafia game.

@hoopla

i agree with your response about AdumbroDeus, putting people into catagories can make us focus on only a few characteristics of players, and miss others. i think when we start to put players into boxes, we can miss the little details that can reveal themselves as town or scum tells, or just how they play the game for future games.

[MrSandman]

Just a quick comment on SailorPallas - this doesn't look like scum playing and Sandman's tunnelling of SailorPallas is in itself more scummy. SP - if I said you looked like you had made a newbie slip or two I hope you won't be offended.

I'm not sure what tunneling means. Not in the glossary. Explain and I'll respond to this.

I'm still busy reading up the posts. I'd be more active, but is it only me or do pages sometimes take like ten or twenty minutes to load? Sometimes it's super slow.

I have a pretty fast connection and I was getting some problems earlier. Still though, we only have 5 pages. You should be caught up by now even with dialup.

I'm suggesting that if we don't have a clear scum choice, inactive/weak players (in that order) should be the obvious choice (since we gotta lynch in order to at least hit odds), for two reasons.


1. It's easy for scum to pretend to play weak, especially with new players since we have no meta on them. That means weak play is a scumtell in and of itself. This applies to being both weak and inactive. Being strategically inactive is an even bigger scumtell.


2. Strong players are more valuable to have in town in general, even if they flip scum, you're still leaving the majority of strong players in town, and this means it's more likely to have a successful lylo. This goes double for inactives, cause wasted slots or barely active players mean literally can't win lylo at worst, at best it's impossible to get a read on them.


So, my view on town lynch priorities is as follows:

1. Scum
2. Inactives
3. Weak players


K?

I really don't believe in the lynching of weak players and lurkers based simply on being weak or not posting. They can be a concern definitely but it's not a valid lynching reason alone in my opinion. Especially in a newbie game. We still have 16 days to find a target with some evidence behind it. I can't fathom being at the deadline and not having one or two people who the rest of the town can all agree on being a good lynch.

I also think it's a little early to even bring this type of thing up. Even though you said so yourself, it doesn't look good suggesting we thin out weak players becuase they're not very effective in a lylo situation.

[kingcod]

@sandman - tunnelling - kind of digging away at SailorPallas without it being constructive examination. Looking back on the actual posts you made I am now not so sure it qualifies as a strong example as such.

[Valkyrie]

Actually, it has nothing to do with my connection if you guys have been paying attention to the site issues:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=225

A lot of people are experiencing slowdown and I have a cable connection.

Anyway, I'm almost caught up reading.

I agree with the priorities on lynching weak and inactive players IN GENERAL, but this being a Newbie game wouldn't there be more of a heightened risk of those people just being innocent townies? I mean, newbies (perhaps such as myself) tend to be inactive and weak.

[RayFrost]

At the moment I have town reads on LobsterCatapault, RayFrost and Valkyrie.

I wouldn't be surprised if the scum is lurking in this group of players; AdumbroDeus, Sandman, Adaham, kingcod, sailorpallas.

Not really in agreement with this.

I feel that valkyrie has failed to provide enough to be a town read.

I agree about LC.

I have generally null reads on the rest of the players except sandman (slightly scummy) and adaham (somewhere between 'no idea' and 'leaning town' but not quite either)

[RayFrost]

Actually, it has nothing to do with my connection if you guys have been paying attention to the site issues:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=225

A lot of people are experiencing slowdown and I have a cable connection.

Anyway, I'm almost caught up reading.

I agree with the priorities on lynching weak and inactive players IN GENERAL, but this being a Newbie game wouldn't there be more of a heightened risk of those people just being innocent townies? I mean, newbies (perhaps such as myself) tend to be inactive and weak.

Hardly an excuse. It isn't slow all the time, so you really should've finished by now. How about, instead of making these posts, you catch up and give some content?

[Valkyrie]

Actually, it has nothing to do with my connection if you guys have been paying attention to the site issues:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=225

A lot of people are experiencing slowdown and I have a cable connection.

Anyway, I'm almost caught up reading.

I agree with the priorities on lynching weak and inactive players IN GENERAL, but this being a Newbie game wouldn't there be more of a heightened risk of those people just being innocent townies? I mean, newbies (perhaps such as myself) tend to be inactive and weak.

Hardly an excuse. It isn't slow all the time, so you really should've finished by now. How about, instead of making these posts, you catch up and give some content?

Ouch, are you scum or just a rude douchebag? This is a newbie game, not your mother's BBQ. Chill out. The internets are not serious business.

Besides, I added content, I'm not sure what else to say really, it's Day 1. I don't think lynching weak or inactive players is effective in a Newbie Game, they're generally just...Newbies.

[kingcod]

Ouch, are you scum or just a rude douchebag?

Well he is both, of course - , but I do agree with ray's sentiment. You are posting more about

not

posting than you have in giving your thoughts and ideas about the game.

Whilst I agree with you that newbies might be weak and therefore at heightened risk of being wrongly lynched I don't really agree that newbies tend to be less active.

We need your valued input whether its comprehensively researched or not.

On the whole 'lets winnow the chaff from the corn' debate its becoming a bit of a null point - surely we only vote for someone who we believe is genuinely scum ... therefore to rank order scum, inactives and weak players (post 103) is simply not relevant.

However, AdumbroDeus is right to raise the debate. Unlike Adaham:

If I was kingcod and innocent, I´d be a bit more harsh in my critique of this basically outrageous statement of AD. Wink to the packy to pace it down?

Methinks this might be stirring discontent

FoS Adaham

[RayFrost]

Ouch, are you scum or just a rude douchebag? This is a newbie game, not your mother's BBQ. Chill out. The internets are not serious business.

Besides, I added content, I'm not sure what else to say really, it's Day 1. I don't think lynching weak or inactive players is effective in a Newbie Game, they're generally just...Newbies.

'tis hardly rude to tell somebody to post content. Besides, who said the internet was serious business? Outside of that, I am of the belief that going easy on newbies is hardly constructive to their growth. It would also be going against the rules of the game (play to win).

Anyway, that's hardly much of anything that you've given as content.

So far, you've not really stated any of

your

opinions on who is scum, which is rather important for, y'know, getting reads on people and finding scum.

That said...

Hoopla:

Why do you believe valkyrie is town?

[LobsterCatapult]

On the whole 'lets winnow the chaff from the corn' debate its becoming a bit of a null point - surely we only vote for someone who we believe is genuinely scum ... therefore to rank order scum, inactives and weak players (post 103) is simply not relevant.

i agree with this, especically since days are 3 weeks long, it gives inactives or weak players to get into the rhythm of the game. i know that if days go on that long, that it can help scum hide, or ppl to get inactive because they may get bored of it, but i think that it helps players grow to have long days to debate back and forth, and thus get more confident. and perhaps, override adaham's fears of townies getting frightened and going inactive over time. though i suppose the same could be said of the scum playing the game as well...i think our scum hunting skills can really only get better the longer days can get.

@kingcod though, adaham might be sowing discontent, he kinda comes across as just aggressive in general and eager to get down to business. i suppose that could be scummy, but im not quite seeing it yet. he also doesnt come across as a newb, though im really unfamiliar with rankings and who qualifies as newb, err...ic or w/e.

also, i think what adaham said was correct, it would be nice to have some content valk since we havent heard much from you. you also seem to get a bit worked up. however, adaham did come across as a bit condescending...which isn't the best tone to encourage newbies to post content.

[Adaham]

Just to clarify, it was RayFrost that called out Valk on posting little to no content, not me, so the condescending bit doesn´t apply to me this time.

Nevertheless I do agree with RayFrost and do not like this auto-defense of Valkyrie. I was going to wait and see what comes, but up until now most contributions of her were either postponing or not game related, which makes it look very much like scummy active lurking. The reply to RayFrost is very biased...RF didn´t suggest to globally lynch weaker players, it was just a direct reminder to stop complaining about the connection and start posting about the game. Perfectly legit request, if you ask me..

@kingcod: First you say that AD´s list is a null point, but still he´s "right to raise the debate. Unlike Adaham"...? Where have I hampered the debate. In fact, what you call "stirring discontent" I call "scumhunting". I´m not posting to please other players, I want to root out scum. Besides, my "stirring discontent" gives me some reactions that aren´t based solely on politeness and thus more information. I could, for once, come to the conclusion that your FoS into my direction is just a badly camouflaged (and slightly non-commitive) OMGUS.

Regarding the others: SailorPallas really needs to post something soon, otherwise we should maybe try to replace. RayFrost is waking up and so far that looks good to me.

Hoopla has started off strong, but seems to fade more into the shadows when other people took over the discussion. Now Hoopla only posts when asked for and posts some general remarks on the game mechanics and a slightly doubtful (and unexplained) list of town-scum-reads.

Still haven´t found much to convince me of Sandmans guilt, even though gut says there´s something going on.

[LobsterCatapult]

ugh sorry adaham, i completely misread that. and i guess to clarify, the condescending remark i thought was more of the

"Hardly an excuse. It isn't slow all the time, so you really should've finished by now."

not the actual request, i mean, id like the same for SP too.

If I was kingcod and innocent, I´d be a bit more harsh in my critique of this basically outrageous statement of AD. Wink to the packy to pace it down?

though you are adding to the debate, i dont think this comment is. by saying if i were this player, i would have acted differently to this action. i mean, of course you would have acted differently, we are different people(obv), i dont see how this is actively scumhunting, this comment does seem like its stirring a bit of discontent because all thats really going on is you pointing out differences in game play, and it has the potential to draw a biased conclusion from it.

[kingcod]

I've had another look through the sequence of events around AdumbroDeus and Adaham, and considered what Adaham said in response to my FoS.

FoS always has the potential to look like OMGUS but I don't think anything in why I said I was pointing the finger confirms that. In retrospect I now think Adaham was simply trying to encourage further votes on AdumbroDeus, who he had voted on in post 92.

@Adaham: Am I right Adaham?

It was unfortunate you prefaced this with "If I was kingcod and innocent", which carries with it an implication that I am borderline scummy for not going in hard on AdumbroDeus

@Sandman - are you not voting because you are scum? Who should be topping the vote list if not you?

[Hoopla]

What exactly do you think of kingcod at the moment?

I don't have a read on him either way yet, which is why I'm open to the possibility of him being scum. Why are you asking me about kingcod in particular?

Hoopla:

Why do you believe valkyrie is town?

It's nothing Valkyrie has posted herself that has generated this read - it's more others reactions toward her. Sandman, sailorpallas and Adumbro jumping on her seemed awkward, when she wasn't the only one lurking. It seemed like an easy target for scum, which is what scum often go for, because they have less blood on their hands if a lynch on a scummier player goes through, than if they chase a more difficult mislynch prospect.

This is a double-edged sword though, insofar as easy targets are often the scummier players which makes it like a snake eating it's own tail. But in this instance I see the pushers of Valkyrie more scummy than Valkyrie, which makes Valkyrie appear more town by default. How does that sound to you?

[Hoopla]

Right, the server seems to be fairly stable now, so lets get on with it.

Valkyrie, Sandman:

drop a vote on someone in your next post please. Enough has transpired in this game to give you some decent suspects.

Everyone else; we're getting to the point where we've got enough data to work with tomorrow and we should be wrapping up Day 1 before this game evaporates and goes stale. After Valkyrie and Sandman have placed a vote, we can view the collective suspicions of everyone and come to an agreement on someone.

Some of us will have to make compromises on this first lynch, but dragging out Day 1 is usually a negative net result (mostly because nobody reads it properly the next day if it's long - less is more). I'll get the ball rolling to say I'm still well in favour of a Sandman lynch, but I could be swayed to sailorpallas or Adumbro if I see good arguments there.

I'd like to see everyone give a concise summary of their suspects and who they'd be open to lynching.