Well, aside from townies vote people they think are scum regardless of scenario not being correct, this is really hypocritical since you didn't vote for so long after you replaced in. So, regardless of scenario (you replacing in) you never voted until less than 24 hours before deadline even though you had suspects at the time!K wrote:If a townie think someone is scum, the townie votes them, regardless of the scenario. Scum, on the other hand, have a tendency to hang back, to wait and see what the town thinks about their lynch candidate before casting a vote.
Yes, I'm not. And your point is?K wrote:Then you aren't applying your standard of scumhunting equally to everyone.
Cyberbob for the same reason as Thor. SPS because I don't think he's a buddy with Fate. I am suspicious of Michel, but that case is almost the same as yours, the claim.K wrote:Why not Cyberbob? He was one of your suspects, wasn't he? If not that, why not SPS, or Michel? Even if I'm your top suspect, there's no reason not to push your other suspects, which you haven't even tried to do so far.
Hmm, I must have deleted it, but I said that I was mistaken with my thinking of who was suspicious of you at the time. I had looked at the votecount right after you claimed and then Copper's post after where he had changed his mind.K wrote:The first part was dealt with in Post #1271 (which you have not bothered replying to)
I've explained this like three times. Yesterday, I thought Pie was scum and Cyberbob looked like a juicy choice for his buddy. With Pie not being scum, that was a huge blow to my thinking Cyberbob was scum. Cyberbob's case was bad, his handling of Kerrigan's response was scummy, but if I can't find a scumteam that includes Cyberbob, then I'm not going to keep attacking Cyberbob.Thor wrote:This is a valid point SK has raised and I'd like to hear your reasoning for this shift.
Yes, tunneling early and hard is a classic example of A) scum behavior and B) opportunistic play for scum.K wrote: Both are aspects of scum opportunism
No, this isn't true at all.
Why do you think I'm scum? Why do you think I'm scum with Thor?SPS wrote:I've finished ISOing people and I'm currently leaning towards a Thor-charter scum team with SK-Cyberbob and Thor-SK as close second and third respectively.
It's entirely possible Kerrigan is a tracker, but I don't see how he's a town tracker.Michel wrote:It may be worth noting that I consider Gunsmith + my role vs 3 vanilla goons unlikely.
Doing some re-reading (trying to pretend I'm gleaning info while I'm at it).charter wrote:I've been in a game where I was the sole power role as town and it was much worse than a gunsmith (3 scum, 9 town). So a one power role game is certainly possible.thor wrote:If the scum team is Michel/SK then it suggests that either we only had one PR (or that 1-3 of us who claimed vanilla all lied) which doesn't seem likely. Thoughts?
Got no comments on this so far, and nothing has changed about Cyberbob since I wrote this. I'm really interested in what other people think about his behavior of today.SaintKerrigan wrote:Btw, has anyone else noticed that Cyberbob has done practically no scumhunting today? He votes me for a case he made yesterday (which I rebutted twice and he hasn't supported it since) and names Michel as my partner solely for scumbuddying without proving why our buddying is scum-motivated. In other words, he isn't doing anything except trying to push my lynch with little to no sufficient reasoning. If anyone can give me a town motivation for doing this, please do so, because I'm hard-pressed to think of anything town about this behavior.
If by this you mean the second section of my Post #1273, I would like to ask how my presenting the chain of events in a town light is considered WIFOM while you presenting those same chain of events in a scum light is not.Charter wrote:I'm not responding to any of Kerrigan's WIFOM defenses
Show me examples where a townie is strongly convinced that someone is scum and yet doesn't vote for them. As for the alleged "hypocrisy," I didn't vote for any of my suspects for a good while because I was not sure enough that any of my suspects were scum. Your case is different. Your belief that I'm scum is strong enough that you've cleared your previous suspects because you don't think they're scum with me. If I'm that scummy in your eyes, there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be voting me.Charter wrote:Well, aside from townies vote people they think are scum regardless of scenario not being correct, this is really hypocritical since you didn't vote for so long after you replaced in. So, regardless of scenario (you replacing in) you never voted until less than 24 hours before deadline even though you had suspects at the time!
It sounds like a cop-out for explaining why a slot you once said was town is now considered scum.Charter wrote:Yes, I'm not. And your point is?
Where's the Michel pressure, then? And this doesn't excuse you not pursuing your other suspects. Because, you know, you couldCharter wrote:Cyberbob for the same reason as Thor. SPS because I don't think he's a buddy with Fate. I am suspicious of Michel, but that case is almost the same as yours, the claim.
This answer has no relevance to the part in Post #1271 I mentioned, which was talking about the first part of your case against me (namely, the claim). It's the second-to-last paragraph before my vote change in that post. Hopefully you can now provide a relevant response.Charter wrote:Hmm, I must have deleted it, but I said that I was mistaken with my thinking of who was suspicious of you at the time. I had looked at the votecount right after you claimed and then Copper's post after where he had changed his mind.
It's called "bussing," Charter. It comes in many shapes and sizes, and not always in easily recognizable form.Charter wrote:Yes, tunneling early and hard is a classic example of A) scum behavior and B) opportunistic play for scum. No, this isn't true at all.
So you think Gunsmith + Michel's role vs 2 goons + scum Tracker is plausible?Charter wrote:It's entirely possible Kerrigan is a tracker, but I don't see how he's a town tracker.
I could see CSL trying to pick up town cred by bussing his seemingly doomed scumbuddy. It wasn't really until that vote that the TCC wagon was checked, iirc. Personally, I wouldn't clear SPS just yet.MichelSableheart wrote:I am inclined to clear Socrates. It's not just Fate's push at the beginning of day 2, but also CSL unexplained vote halfway through day 1, near the original deadline.
It seems to me more laziness then anything. He didn't really have a reason to expand on his suspicions, because the only players who have actually questioned his suspicions yesterday are you and me, who he is actually suspicious of. The other players may have made remarks that his case wasn't very convincing, but haven't actually tried to get him to make a serious case.SK wrote:Btw, has anyone else noticed that Cyberbob has done practically no scumhunting today? He votes me for a case he made yesterday (which I rebutted twice and he hasn't supported it since) and names Michel as my partner solely for scumbuddying without proving why our buddying is scum-motivated. In other words, he isn't doing anything except trying to push my lynch with little to no sufficient reasoning. If anyone can give me a town motivation for doing this, please do so, because I'm hard-pressed to think of anything town about this behavior.
Process of elimination. I don't particularly think you're scum (note that the other two pairings I mentioned don't include you) but Thor-charter is the pairing that would make me the least wrong out of all the pairings.charter wrote:Why do you think I'm scum? Why do you think I'm scum with Thor?Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:I've finished ISOing people and I'm currently leaning towards a Thor-charter scum team with SK-Cyberbob and Thor-SK as close second and third respectively.
I'm fairly sure I've played similarly as town. If you're convinced you've found scum, you tend to do less scumhunting.SaintKerrigan wrote:Got no comments on this so far, and nothing has changed about Cyberbob since I wrote this. I'm really interested in what other people think about his behavior of today.SaintKerrigan wrote:Btw, has anyone else noticed that Cyberbob has done practically no scumhunting today? He votes me for a case he made yesterday (which I rebutted twice and he hasn't supported it since) and names Michel as my partner solely for scumbuddying without proving why our buddying is scum-motivated. In other words, he isn't doing anything except trying to push my lynch with little to no sufficient reasoning. If anyone can give me a town motivation for doing this, please do so, because I'm hard-pressed to think of anything town about this behavior.
Interactions with Fate and gut respectively, as I mentioned earlier.SK wrote:@ SPS: Why aren't you liking Charterscum or Cyberbobscum?
It's not just that he's not doing scumhunting. He's not doing scumhuntingSteam-Powered Shovel wrote:I'm fairly sure I've played similarly as town. If you're convinced you've found scum, you tend to do less scumhunting.
This is the first game I've seriously been accused of OMGUSy play. However, I don't think any of my cases against people are OMGUS at all. If you want me to elaborate on something specific, I can.Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:Do you have a tendency to be OMGUSy, SaintKerrigan?
lolSaintKerrigan wrote:This is the first game I've seriously been accused of OMGUSy play. However, I don't think any of my cases against people are OMGUS at all. If you want me to elaborate on something specific, I can.
You're asking me why scum is acting how they are. If you don't see how that's WIFOM, then I can't help you. The WIFOM is you asking me what I think scum would do.Kerrigan wrote:If by this you mean the second section of my Post #1273, I would like to ask how my presenting the chain of events in a town light is considered WIFOM while you presenting those same chain of events in a scum light is not.
Any game in LYLO you will have townies not voting.K wrote:Show me examples where a townie is strongly convinced that someone is scum and yet doesn't vote for them. As for the alleged "hypocrisy," I didn't vote for any of my suspects for a good while because I was not sure enough that any of my suspects were scum. Your case is different. Your belief that I'm scum is strong enough that you've cleared your previous suspects because you don't think they're scum with me. If I'm that scummy in your eyes, there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be voting me.
Well, without knowing MIchel's role, it's hard to say, but I don't think MIchel can be town, but I do think a gunsmith can be the only town power role.K wrote:So you think Gunsmith + Michel's role vs 2 goons + scum Tracker is plausible?
So if it's WIFOM for me to speculate why scum would behave as they have with me as town, why isn't it WIFOM for you to speculate why scum would behave as they have with me as scum?Charter wrote:You're asking me why scum is acting how they are. If you don't see how that's WIFOM, then I can't help you. The WIFOM is you asking me what I think scum would do.
Of course you'll find townies not voting in Lylo. That's not what I asked. Do you have examples of townies that are utterly convinced that someone is scum and still withhold their vote?Charter wrote:Any game in LYLO you will have townies not voting.
Does this mean you don't think Michel is town? If so, why haven't you been pressuring him?Charter wrote:but I don't think MIchel can be town
What is it that makes charter my partner and Cyberbob SK's partner. Why is it not likely for the pairs to be Thor/Cyberbob and SK/charter?Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:Process of elimination. I don't particularly think you're scum (note that the other two pairings I mentioned don't include you) but Thor-charter is the pairing that would make me the least wrong out of all the pairings.charter wrote:Why do you think I'm scum? Why do you think I'm scum with Thor?Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:I've finished ISOing people and I'm currently leaning towards a Thor-charter scum team with SK-Cyberbob and Thor-SK as close second and third respectively.
Take for example your point about him not voting. The argument is not unreasonable an sich, maybe he should be voting and maybe it is out of the ordinary, but I don't see how that makes him scum. I don't see the benefit of the action for scum and I don't believe townies are more likely to vote early in Lylo (although I could see them as being more likely to place the first vote). I think his non-voting tells us something about charter, not about his alignment.SaintKerrigan wrote:@ SPS: How so?
I find Cyberbob townier than charter, so that's why I prefer charter in a scum pair. There were 2 quotes I brought up earlier in post 1294 which I felt constituted strong evidence against a SK-charter pairing.Thor665 wrote:What is it that makes charter my partner and Cyberbob SK's partner. Why is it not likely for the pairs to be Thor/Cyberbob and SK/charter?Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:Process of elimination. I don't particularly think you're scum (note that the other two pairings I mentioned don't include you) but Thor-charter is the pairing that would make me the least wrong out of all the pairings.charter wrote:Why do you think I'm scum? Why do you think I'm scum with Thor?Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:I've finished ISOing people and I'm currently leaning towards a Thor-charter scum team with SK-Cyberbob and Thor-SK as close second and third respectively.
What the hell are you talking about? If you're scum then there's no WIFOM, what's happening is happening because you're scum. There's no option of guessing what scum would do. If you're scum, then obviously you're going to live through the night.K wrote:So if it's WIFOM for me to speculate why scum would behave as they have with me as town, why isn't it WIFOM for you to speculate why scum would behave as they have with me as scum?
I'm sure I've seen it, but I'm not going to go looking through games to find examples. How the hell can it be scummy to be not voting? It's really obvious I think you're scum, so if I all of a sudden change and vote Cyberbob, then that's going to be scummy. Whether I was voting you before or not. That's basically what you did, after I said I was suspicious of you.K wrote:Do you have examples of townies that are utterly convinced that someone is scum and still withhold their vote?
Because no one is interested in lynching him. This game is already a drain, I don't have the time/energy to reread and make another case when his fate is tied in with yours.K wrote:Does this mean you don't think Michel is town? If so, why haven't you been pressuring him?
It was a really weak vote. If you notice how much he pushed SK before he claimed when he was a viable target versus how much he pushed SK after when he wasn't a viable target, the difference is quite profound. In that post he even listed three people he'd be willing to lynch, so it's not like he didn't leave his options wide open. To me it just looks like a really crappy bus attempt.Thor665 wrote:@charter
@Cyberbob
How does your SK = scum case justify Fate's pressure on the SK wagon Day 2?
Here's where he hopped on
Third person on the bus. No real pressure on himself yet. Actually has to re-clarify himself that he didn't mean Pie but rather SK on some earlier stated suspicions.
This is getting jumbled up. Let me try to explain my point another way: How does my claim and it's associated actions make me scum?Charter wrote:What the hell are you talking about? If you're scum then there's no WIFOM, what's happening is happening because you're scum. There's no option of guessing what scum would do. If you're scum, then obviously you're going to live through the night.
